Ecumenism: Diplomacy or Sincere Exchange?

[chandu_69]

 

Who says so?

Krishna himself says so;In bhagavad gita.

[melvin]

 

Krishna himself says so;In bhagavad gita.

 

 

 

[chandu_69]

 

The issue here is not whether we believe in Jesus or Krsna. The main argument was whether there`s an eternal hell. .

 

The Main issue is eternal hell.Unbeleivers of Krishna don't go to eternal hell as per Bhagavadgita.

 

But, As per Bible Unbelievers of Jesus(Son of God) goes to eternal hell.

[melvin]

 

The Main issue is eternal hell.Unbeleivers of Krishna don't go to eternal hell as per Bhagavadgita.

 

But, As per Bible Unbelievers of Jesus(Son of God) goes to eternal hell.

 

 

I guess that`s what you call TWO SIDES OF THE COIN.

[chandu_69]

 

I guess that`s what you call TWO SIDES OF THE COIN.

 

[primate]

 

...

Now, I can`t help but defend my religion( Christ consciousness ) from Hindus and non-Hindus who attack Lord Jesus Christ and His teachings. But then again, if I see that Srila Prabhupad`s Krsna Consciousness and his teachings are attacked by Mayavadism, I go an extra mile to defend the former. And when I see that the followers of Dvaita philosophy attack Sankaracarya for advocating Advaita, I defend the latter.

Why is this so?

...

 

Actually, Vaishnavism and Christianity may have the doctrine of monistic theism or panentheism in common. All Vaishnava schools are panentheistic and view the universe as part of Krishna or Narayana, but see a plurality of souls and substances within Brahman. Panentheism or monistic theism, which includes the concept of a personal God as a universal, omnipotent Supreme Being who is both immanent and transcendent, is prevalent within many other schools of Hinduism as well. And this also appears to be the Christian position:

 

The Christian position is that God is the self-existent Creator of all things (Gen. 1:1; Isa. 44:24; Acts 14:15; Eph. 3:9). But for Christians God is more than a cosmic watchmaker who has brought into being a giant machine that continues to run its prescribed course without intervention, even by its Creator. That is the view of deism, which accepts the transcendence of God over the world as Creator but denies His immanence. On the basis of biblical witness Christians believe that God is also the self-existent Sustainer and Governor of all things (Acts 14:16-17; 17:24-28). The eternal Son of God, who became incarnate as the Lord Jesus Christ, is described as the One who “upholds all things by the word of His power” (Heb. 1:3) and the One in whom “all things hold together” (Col. 1:17). As a result the regularity of the universe which people call “the laws of nature” is in reality the normal pattern of the cosmos-sustaining power of God; for as Paul wrote, “God is not a God of confusion” (1 Cor. 14:33; cf. v. 40).

 

By Roy B. Zuck

 

Vital apologetic issues: examining ... - Google Books

 

 

“He is before all things [i.e., timeless], and in him all things hold together.” (Colossians. 1:17)

 

“The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.” (Hebrews. 1:3)

 

“For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.” (Acts 17:28)

 

“Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.” (Psalm 90)

 

[melvin]

 

Actually, Vaishnavism and Christianity may have the doctrine of monistic theism or panentheism in common. All Vaishnava schools are panentheistic and view the universe as part of Krishna or Narayana, but see a plurality of souls and substances within Brahman. Panentheism or monistic theism, which includes the concept of a personal God as a universal, omnipotent Supreme Being who is both immanent and transcendent, is prevalent within many other schools of Hinduism as well. And this also appears to be the Christian position:

 

So, Vaishnavism and Christianity are simultaneously one and yet they differ. While both play, for example, the same song say, God consciousness, it`s Krsna who is the composer while Christ is the singer.

[primate]

 

So, Vaishnavism and Christianity are simultaneously one and yet they differ. While both play, for example, the same song say, God consciousness, it`s Krsna who is the composer while Christ is the singer.

Well, I think it’s an interesting proposition that Christianity and Vaishnavism actually have the same concept of God being both equal to (immanent) and different from (transcendent) His creation, contrary to dualism or deism in, for example, Islam. Of course Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam explain this much better than the Christian New Testament. Also Judaism, which is much related to Christianity, is more explicit:

 

Judaism

 

According to Chasidic Thought (particularly as propounded by Shneur Zalman of Liadi) of Chabad, God is held to be immanent within creation for two interrelated reasons.

 

Firstly, a very strong Jewish belief is that "[t]he Divine life-force which brings [the universe] into existence must constantly be present... were this life-force to forsake [the universe] for even one brief moment, it would revert to a state of utter nothingness, as before the creation...".

 

Secondly, and simultaneously, Judaism holds as axiomatic that God is an absolute unity, and that He is Perfectly Simple - thus if His sustaining power is within nature, then His essence is also within nature.

 

Islam

 

According to non-Sufi Islamic perspective, the creation and the creator cannot be equal, therefore Monism stands rejected in Islam. Islam claims that God created the universe from nothing, therefore the concept of anthropomorphism and viewing God himself as evolving or changing are forms of shirk (associating partners with God). The belief of God in Islam can be summarized by chapter 112 of the Qur'an "Say, he is God the one, God is he upon whom all depend. He does not beget nor was he begotten, and there is nothing that is like him/equal to him."

 

Monism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

According to the quotes in my previous post, Christianity also has a panentheistic (monistic theist) concept of God. So the entry on Christianity in the above Wikipedia article, which suggests that "Christianity strongly maintains the Creator-creature distinction, and so firmly rejects metaphysical monism", is wrong.

 

Furthermore, Jesus Christ is (the Son of) God. So, Christ must be Krishna. Even Prabhupada said that Christianity is Vaishnavism. Christians practice bhakti-yoga when they worship Jesus Christ, because they are accepting him as (the personal) God.

 

Vaishnava blog feeds » Blog Archive » Christianity is Vaisnavism

[chandu_69]

 

 

Furthermore, Jesus Christ is (the Son of) God. So, Christ must be Krishna. Even Prabhupada said that Christianity is Vaishnavism. Christians practice bhakti-yoga when they worship Jesus Christ, because they are accepting him as (the personal) God.

 

Vaishnava blog feeds » Blog Archive » Christianity is Vaisnavism

 

That is too far fetching;Whoever wrote this in the link is wildly imaginative.

 

Going by the bible account of Jesus; Jesus was SENT.

 

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was not SENT except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

 

 

AND the one who SENT him has forsaken him.

 

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou FORSAKEN me?

Edited July 18, 2009 by chandu_69
TYPO

[primate]

 

That is too far fetching;Whoever wrote this in the link is wildly imaginative.

 

Going by the bible account of Jesus; Jesus was SENT.

 

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was not SENT except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

 

 

AND the one who SENT him has forsaken him.

 

 

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou FORSAKEN me?

Yes. That's a real problem of general Biblical texts. There are (too) many inconsistencies in the different accounts from different authors. One testimony may state: "For in him we live, and move, and have our being." (Acts 17:28), yet in another, the same Lord Jesus Christ exclaims: "My God, my God, why didst Thou forsake me?" (Mark 15:34). But don’t you think this could be similar to the confusion between Krishna the Absolute Truth, the Cause of all causes, and Krishna avatar the cowherd's boy?

[melvin]

 

Yes. That's a real problem of general Biblical texts. There are (too) many inconsistencies in the different accounts from different authors. One testimony may state: "For in him we live, and move, and have our being." (Acts 17:28), yet in another, the same Lord Jesus Christ exclaims: "My God, my God, why didst Thou forsake me?" (Mark 15:34). But don’t you think this could be similar to the confusion between Krishna the Absolute Truth, the Cause of all causes, and Krishna avatar the cowherd's boy?

 

You have the intelligence, Primate, sifting the chaff from the grain.

[chandu_69]

 

Yes. That's a real problem of general Biblical texts. There are (too) many inconsistencies in the different accounts from different authors.

 

Not much i am afraid.What Jesus said when he was Alive is consistent.What the Apostles(John and mark) added after his passing away were inconsistent with What actually jesus said.

 

Jesus said his mission was to save the jews, "the lost sheep of Israel".

 

Jesus's gospel before he was crucified:

 

Matthew 10:5-6:

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

 

 

After Jesus's death Apostles Johan and Matthew expanded Jesus mission to include "All nations".

 

 

 

Matthew 28:16-20

19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

 

 

One testimony may state: "For in him we live, and move, and have our being." (Acts 17:28),

 

That is Paul(John's) views,Not Jesus's sayings.

 

 

yet in another, the same Lord Jesus Christ exclaims: "My God, my God, why didst Thou forsake me?" (Mark 15:34).

 

 

 

Mark 15:34 agrees with the other account Matthew 27:46.

 

 

But don’t you think this could be similar to the confusion between Krishna the Absolute Truth, the Cause of all causes, and Krishna avatar the cowherd's boy?

 

There is disagreement with regards to Who is the source, Krishna or Vishnu.Some see Krishna as Manifestation of Vishnu and others see "Krishna in Goloka" as the source.The difference is that of perception.I am personally not bothered much about it.

[primate]

 

...

There is disagreement with regards to Who is the source, Krishna or Vishnu.Some see Krishna as Manifestation of Vishnu and others see "Krishna in Goloka" as the source.The difference is that of perception.I am personally not bothered much about it.

Okay. But my point is that both the Bible (New Testament) and Vedic literature (Bhagavad Gita) seem to refer to the same God in much the same way, indicating that Christ and Krishna really are on the same level.

 

The Bible makes it perfectly clear that Jesus Christ is God himself. Jesus said "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30). And the book of Hebrews speaks of the Son as "the Being through whom God created the universe", and "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word." (Hebrews 1:2-3). Yet, Jesus was also a man; a human being of flesh and blood, who preached God's word on Earth, and who suffered and died for the sins of mankind.

 

Now, my argument is that this apparent dichotomy of Jesus Christ being both God and human, is remarkably similar to the dichotomy of Krishna being both the all pervading God himself and a human avatar, teaching Arjuna all of lives philosophy. And in the sense that both Christ and Krishna are God, it can be said that Christ is Krishna, i.e., they must ultimately be the same divine being or God..

[melvin]

 

Okay. But my point is that both the Bible (New Testament) and Vedic literature (Bhagavad Gita) seem to refer to the same God in much the same way, indicating that Christ and Krishna really are on the same level.

 

The Bible makes it perfectly clear that Jesus Christ is God himself. Jesus said "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30). And the book of Hebrews speaks of the Son as "the Being through whom God created the universe", and "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word." (Hebrews 1:2-3). Yet, Jesus was also a man; a human being of flesh and blood, who preached God's word on Earth, and who suffered and died for the sins of mankind.

 

Now, my argument is that this apparent dichotomy of Jesus Christ being both God and human, is remarkably similar to the dichotomy of Krishna being both the all pervading God himself and a human avatar, teaching Arjuna all of lives philosophy. And in the sense that both Christ and Krishna are God, it can be said that Christ is Krishna, i.e., they must ultimately be the same divine being or God..

 

 

There are, indeed, two sides of the coin, Primate. On one side is Christ(Balaram). On the other is Krsna. I just wonder why Chandu can`t understand this simple fact.

[chandu_69]

 

Okay. But my point is that both the Bible (New Testament) and Vedic literature (Bhagavad Gita) seem to refer to the same God in much the same way, indicating that Christ and Krishna really are on the same level.

 

I have countered that Point in posts 53 and 59.

 

 

 

 

The Bible makes it perfectly clear that Jesus Christ is God himself. Jesus said "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30). And the book of Hebrews speaks of the Son as "the Being through whom God created the universe", and "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word." (Hebrews 1:2-3). Yet, Jesus was also a man; a human being of flesh and blood, who preached God's word on Earth, and who suffered and died for the sins of mankind.

 

I have no issues with divinity of Jesus.I was pointing out the apparent contradictions you mentioned.The contradictions can be resolved

when you separate what Jesus said while he was alive and what The apostles added after his death.Gospel written by John is after the death of Jesus and the Hebrews you mentioned are obviously not Jesus's sayings.

 

 

Now, my argument is that this apparent dichotomy of Jesus Christ being both God and human, is remarkably similar to the dichotomy of Krishna being both the all pervading God himself and a human avatar, teaching Arjuna all of lives philosophy. And in the sense that both Christ and Krishna are God, it can be said that Christ is Krishna, i.e., they must ultimately be the same divine being or God..

 

In Hinduism the concept of Avatar is established Much before the arrival of Krishna.So, there is no dichotomy as far as Hinduism is concerned.

 

The Jews have an issue about Jesus being the son of god.But, that is an altogether different matter which has to be resolved B/n the Jewish and christian people.

[primate]

 

I have countered that Point in posts 53 and 59.

 

 

I have no issues with divinity of Jesus.I was pointing out the apparent contradictions you mentioned.The contradictions can be resolved

when you separate what Jesus said while he was alive and what The apostles added after his death.Gospel written by John is after the death of Jesus and the Hebrews you mentioned are obviously not Jesus's sayings.

 

I don't see how this solves any contradictions. Actually, all the gospels were written after Jesus died. The earliest one was the gospel of Mark, which is thought to be written at the earliest after 70 AD. Moreover, the entire Christian Bible is believed to be the word of God himself, just like Vedic scriptures are believed to be the word of God. Furthermore, I don't believe Jesus' crying out "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?", is really contradicting his being one with God. Jesus had to suffer like any other flesh and blood human being. Only the true terror, despair and shed blood of God himself could erase all sins of mankind. Likewise, the fact that Jesus "was sent", can be seen as part of his being human. So, your argument in your post #59 doesn't hold. I don't see how your post #53 (about hell) is relevant.

 

 

In Hinduism the concept of Avatar is established Much before the arrival of Krishna.So, there is no dichotomy as far as Hinduism is concerned.

 

The Jews have an issue about Jesus being the son of god.But, that is an altogether different matter which has to be resolved B/n the Jewish and christian people.

 

Do you agree then that Jesus Christ and Krishna were avatars of the same God and that both in fact were God, and that in this sense it can be said that Christ is Krishna? This - in combination with the monistic theistic concept of God in Christianity (see my post #57 and #58) - would mean that Christianity and Vaishnavism are remarkably compatible religious philosophies..

[chandu_69]

 

I don't see how this solves any contradictions. Actually, all the gospels were written after Jesus died.

 

That is factually incorrect.Gospel of John was written after Jesus death claiming to be revelations from Jesus.

 

 

The earliest one was the gospel of Mark, which is thought to be written at the earliest after 70 AD.

Most of Mark and Matthew writings were the saying's of Jesus while he was alive.In those writings Jesus never claimed to be god.

If he did, please point out.

 

 

Moreover, the entire Christian Bible is believed to be the word of God himself, just like Vedic scriptures are believed to be the word of God. Furthermore, I don't believe Jesus' crying out "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?", is really contradicting his being one with God.

 

No, it didn't contradict him being with god.But it clearly says what Jesus felt, i.e. Father(god) forsaking himself in the moment of crisis.And that(jesus agony) clearly portrays Jesus being dependent on Father(God).

 

Don't you think Jesus words are more authentic then other people words?.(response to:entire Christian Bible being word's of god)

 

The contrast is Plain and obvious .Krishna Claims to be God In Gita whereas Jesus claims to be dependent on Father and is doing his Father's bidding.

 

 

Likewise, the fact that Jesus "was sent", can be seen as part of his being human. So, your argument in your post #59 doesn't hold. I don't see how your post #53 (about hell) is relevant.

 

Respond to my posts(59 and 53) and see if you find it relevant or not.

 

 

 

.Do you agree then that Jesus Christ and Krishna were avatars of the same God and that both in fact were God, and that in this sense it can be said that Christ is Krishna? This - in combination with the monistic theistic concept of God in Christianity (see my post #57 and #58) - would mean that Christianity and Vaishnavism are remarkably compatible religious philosophies...

 

 

No, and it is explained clearly in post 53 and it's preceding posts.Eternal punishment in hell for unbelief as described in Christianity is not compatible with Hinduism.

[primate]

 

Gospel of John was written after Jesus death claiming to be revelations from Jesus.

 

Most of Mark and Matthew writings were the saying's of Jesus while he was alive.In those writings Jesus never claimed to be god.

If he did, please point out.

 

Don't you think Jesus words are more authentic then other people words?.(response to:entire Christian Bible being word's of god)

 

The contrast is Plain and obvious .Krishna Claims to be God In Gita whereas Jesus claims to be dependent on Father and is doing his Father's bidding.

 

First of all, in comparing Christianity and Vaishnavism/Krishnaism, it’s most relevant what Christianity upholds to be the truth. Apart from the question whether Jesus actually claimed to be God in any of his own sayings, Christians believe him to be God. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity teaches the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead. The doctrine states that God is the Triune God, existing as three persons, but one being.

(Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

 

Secondly, the disciples who personally knew and were taught by Jesus, and who then wrote most of the New Testament, are thoroughly consistent with Jesus' statements about Himself. His disciples were monotheistic Jews. For them to agree that Jesus was God, and then to give their lives for this belief, tells us that they had come to see for themselves that the claims Jesus made about Himself were so convincing as to leave no doubt in their minds.

 

Perhaps the boldest claim Jesus made about His identity was the statement, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58). Translated into English, His statement may appear or sound confusing. But in the Aramaic or Hebrew language in which He spoke, He was making a claim that immediately led the people to try to stone Him for blasphemy.

 

Jesus was revealing His identity as the actual One whom the Jews knew as God in the Old Testament. He was saying in one breath that He existed before Abraham and that He was the same Being as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

Anciently when the great God first revealed Himself to Moses in Exodus 3:13-14, Moses asked Him what His name was. "I AM WHO I AM," was the awesome reply. "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

 

Jesus clearly claimed to be this same Being—the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (verse 15).

 

"I AM" is related to the personal name for God in the Old Testament, the Hebrew name YHWH. When this name appears in our English Bibles, it is commonly rendered using small capital letters as LORD. It is transliterated as "Jehovah" in some Bible versions.

 

When Jesus made this startling statement, the Jews knew exactly what He meant. They picked up stones to kill Him because they thought He was guilty of blasphemy.

 

(Who—and What—Was Jesus Christ? > Jesus Christ: The Real Story)

 

 

 

No, and it is explained clearly in post 53 and it's preceding posts.Eternal punishment in hell for unbelief as described in Christianity is not compatible with Hinduism.

 

I think this is a different discussion. And most Christians don’t believe in the concept of Hell, being an actual place of eternal torment:

 

The Christian doctrine of hell derives from the teaching of the New Testament, where hell is typically described using the Greek words Tartarus or Hades or the Hebrew word Gehenna. These three terms have different meanings and must be recognized. Tartarus occurs only once in the New Testament in II Peter 2:4 and is translated as a place of incarceration of demons. It mentions nothing about human souls being sent there in the afterlife. Hades has similarities to the Old Testament term, Sheol as "the place of the dead", or in other words, the grave. Thus, it is used in reference to both the righteous and the wicked, since both wind up there eventually. Gehenna refers to the "Valley of Hinnon", which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. It was a place where people burned their garbage and thus there always a fire burning there. Bodies of those deemed to have died in sin without hope of salvation (such as people who committed suicide) were thrown there to be destroyed. Gehenna is used in the New Testament as a metaphor for the final place of punishment for the wicked after the resurrection. Hell is taught as the final destiny of those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their savior

(Hell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

 

Most biblical scholars believe hell to be a symbol of eternal separation from God and God's presence. Pope John Paul II declared that, while Scripture uses the image of place in relation to eternal damnation, what is really involved is a state of self-exclusion from God. In the words of Pope John Paul II, "The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, Hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy".

(Hell in Christian beliefs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

 

It’s also interesting to note that in the first five hundred years of Christianity, reincarnation was most certainly on the main stage of Christian theology. The idea of Hell as some sort of eternal punishment came about after the Church banned the teaching of reincarnation as heretical in 553 CE at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, when it condemned Origen and his teachings, and had to come up with some way to explain how God's justice could possibly work.

(REINCARNATION IN EARLY CHRISTIANITY)

[chandu_69]

 

First of all, in comparing Christianity and Vaishnavism/Krishnaism, it’s most relevant what Christianity upholds to be the truth.

 

True.

 

But it is not me who made the comparison and declared Krishna is Christ(jesus).I merely pointed out the Fundamental differences that makes your assertion invalid.Since you have not denied the the basic and fundamental differences i have pointed out we have nothing more to discuss, i believe.

 

 

Apart from the question whether Jesus actually claimed to be God in any of his own sayings, Christians believe him to be God. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity teaches the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead. The doctrine states that God is the Triune God, existing as three persons, but one being.

(Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

 

Secondly, the disciples who personally knew and were taught by Jesus, and who then wrote most of the New Testament, are thoroughly consistent with Jesus' statements about Himself. His disciples were monotheistic Jews. For them to agree that Jesus was God, and then to give their lives for this belief, tells us that they had come to see for themselves that the claims Jesus made about Himself were so convincing as to leave no doubt in their minds.

As i said before i have no intention to establish the divinity or the lack of it, of Jesus.I was merely responding to your statement in post number 60 about inconsistencies in bible

 

"One testimony may state: "For in him we live, and move, and have our being." (Acts 17:28), yet in another, the same Lord Jesus Christ exclaims: "My God, my God, why didst"

 

 

Perhaps the boldest claim Jesus made about His identity was the statement, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58). Translated into English, His statement may appear or sound confusing. But in the Aramaic or Hebrew language in which He spoke, He was making a claim that immediately led the people to try to stone Him for blasphemy.

 

Jesus was revealing His identity as the actual One whom the Jews knew as God in the Old Testament. He was saying in one breath that He existed before Abraham and that He was the same Being as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

Anciently when the great God first revealed Himself to Moses in Exodus 3:13-14, Moses asked Him what His name was. "I AM WHO I AM," was the awesome reply. "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

 

Jesus clearly claimed to be this same Being—the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (verse 15).

 

"I AM" is related to the personal name for God in the Old Testament, the Hebrew name YHWH. When this name appears in our English Bibles, it is commonly rendered using small capital letters as LORD. It is transliterated as "Jehovah" in some Bible versions.

 

When Jesus made this startling statement, the Jews knew exactly what He meant. They picked up stones to kill Him because they thought He was guilty of blasphemy.

 

(Who—and What—Was Jesus Christ? > Jesus Christ: The Real Story)

 

Once again i have no problem with beliefs of people as long as they don't hurt others.I am not an evangelist out to convert people.

 

But, when you make a sweeping statement that christ is nothing but Krishna you should back up with an explicit statement from Jesus (while he was alive).

 

 

 

 

I think this is a different discussion. And most Christians don’t believe in the concept of Hell, being an actual place of eternal torment:

 

The Christian doctrine of hell derives from the teaching of the New Testament, where hell is typically described using the Greek words Tartarus or Hades or the Hebrew word Gehenna. These three terms have different meanings and must be recognized. Tartarus occurs only once in the New Testament in II Peter 2:4 and is translated as a place of incarceration of demons. It mentions nothing about human souls being sent there in the afterlife. Hades has similarities to the Old Testament term, Sheol as "the place of the dead", or in other words, the grave. Thus, it is used in reference to both the righteous and the wicked, since both wind up there eventually. Gehenna refers to the "Valley of Hinnon", which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. It was a place where people burned their garbage and thus there always a fire burning there. Bodies of those deemed to have died in sin without hope of salvation (such as people who committed suicide) were thrown there to be destroyed. Gehenna is used in the New Testament as a metaphor for the final place of punishment for the wicked after the resurrection. Hell is taught as the final destiny of those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their savior

(Hell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

 

Most biblical scholars believe hell to be a symbol of eternal separation from God and God's presence. Pope John Paul II declared that, while Scripture uses the image of place in relation to eternal damnation, what is really involved is a state of self-exclusion from God. In the words of Pope John Paul II, "The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, Hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy".

(Hell in Christian beliefs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

The description of hell in Bible(new testament) are graphic and descriptive.We already had this discussion before and the specific quotes from bible are listed at What the Bible Says About Hell | Bible.org.

 

 

It’s also interesting to note that in the first five hundred years of Christianity, reincarnation was most certainly on the main stage of Christian theology....

Could be ; but Jesus didn't say anything about reincarnation or suggested anything to that effect.

 

Reincarnation is explicitly denied in Bible(NT)

Hebrews 9:27 Everyone has only one life in which to determine their destiny .

[primate]

 

But it is not me who made the comparison and declared Krishna is Christ(jesus).I merely pointed out the Fundamental differences that makes your assertion invalid.Since you have not denied the the basic and fundamental differences i have pointed out we have nothing more to discuss, i believe.

 

As i said before i have no intention to establish the divinity or the lack of it, of Jesus.I was merely responding to your statement in post number 60 about inconsistencies in bible

 

I was also responding to this issue. And I stated: Jesus Christ and Krishna were both avatars of the same God and both in fact were God, and in this sense it can be said that Christ is Krishna. So, these inconsistencies in the Bible can be solved by adopting the Vedic/Hindu concept of avatar! I also clearly denied and refuted your claim that Jesus Christ never explicitly stated that He was God. So what do you mean when you say: "Since you have not denied the basic and fundamental differences i have pointed out we have nothing more to discuss, i believe."?

 

 

Once again i have no problem with beliefs of people as long as they don't hurt others.I am not an evangelist out to convert people.

 

Agreed. And I’m not an evangelist either. I’m just interested in (spiritual) truth.

 

 

The description of hell in Bible(new testament) are graphic and descriptive.We already had this discussion before and the specific quotes from bible are listed at What the Bible Says About Hell | Bible.org.

 

I already explained in my previous post that this conception of Christian 'hell' is wrong. So why do you repeat it as an argument?

 

 

Could be ; but Jesus didn't say anything about reincarnation or suggested anything to that effect.

 

Reincarnation is explicitly denied in Bible(NT)

Hebrews 9:27 Everyone has only one life in which to determine their destiny .

 

I’m not familiar with that translation. It should state:

Hebrews 9:27 (King James Version)

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

 

Thus, after death you will be judged. That’s not incompatible with the notion of reincarnation.

 

Actually there are many references in the Bible to reincarnation and pre-existence of the soul. Here are just a few:

 

 

 

First of all, in the above Bible passage Jesus actually asks his disciples the identity of the person he was in a past life. Notice that the disciples knew exactly what Jesus was talking about and their answer to Jesus referred to people who died a very long time ago. Notice also that there is no Bible passage that shows Jesus refuting the concept of reincarnation whenever the concept is brought up. Instead Jesus teaches reincarnation.

 

Common sense should tell us that everyone who lives by the sword (a life of crime for example) do not always die by the sword. A vast multitude of people throughout history have gotten away with their crimes. In fact, this is another apparent injustice that some people even use to deny the very existence of God. This statement from Jesus is completely absurd and ignorant unless reincarnation is true. For the divine justice that Jesus refers to as being true, people who don't pay for their sins in their life must pay for them in a future life.

 

This law of divine justice is also found in the Old Testament:

 

This law of divine justice is practically a universal religious concept. In eastern religions, this law of divine justice is known as karma. This law of divine justice is equal to the concept of reincarnation. This law of living by the sword and dying by the sword is the principle of reincarnation. In other words, this law of divine justice is the law of reincarnation.

 

Reincarnation and the Bible

 

[primate]

 

...

when you make a sweeping statement that christ is nothing but Krishna you should back up with an explicit statement from Jesus (while he was alive).

...

 

Since you do not accept Jesus' explicit statement in Johns Gospel (verse 8:58).., here are some quotes and arguments based on the Gospel of Matthew and Mark, which clearly indicate that also according to these authors, Jesus Christ was God on Earth:

 

The first Gospel writer, Matthew, opens with the story of the virgin birth of Jesus. Matthew comments on this miraculous event with the quote from Isaiah 7:14, "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel, which is translated, God with us" (Matthew 1:23). Matthew is making it clear that he understands that this child is God; "God with us."

 

Jesus claimed authority to forgive sins, an authority that belonged to God only. The LORD (YHWH) is the One pictured in the Old Testament who forgives sin (Jeremiah 31:34).When Jesus healed one paralyzed man, He also said to him, "Son, your sins are forgiven you" (Mark 2:5). The scribes who heard this reasoned He was blaspheming, because, as they rightly understood and asked, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (verses 6-7). Responding to the scribes, Jesus said: "Why do you raise such questions in your hearts?...But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (verses 8-10).

 

Jesus received worship on many occasions without forbidding such acts. The first and second of the Ten Commandments forbid worship of anyone or anything other than God (Exodus 20:2-5). Yet Jesus accepted worship and did not rebuke those who chose to kneel before Him and worship. A leper worshipped Him (Matthew 8:2). A ruler worshipped Him with his plea to raise his daughter from the dead (Matthew 9:18). When Jesus had stilled the storm, those in the boat worshipped Him as the Son of God (Matthew 14:33). A Canaanite woman worshipped Him (Matthew 15:25). When Jesus met the women who came to His tomb after His resurrection, they worshipped Him, as did His apostles (Matthew 28:9, 17). The demon-possessed man of the Gadarenes, "when He saw Jesus from afar ...ran and worshipped Him" (Mark 5:6).

 

Who—and What—Was Jesus Christ? > Jesus Christ: The Real Story

 

 

 

 

 

 

[chandu_69]

 

The first Gospel writer, Matthew, opens with the story of the virgin birth of Jesus. Matthew comments on this miraculous event with the quote from Isaiah 7:14, "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel, which is translated, God with us" (Matthew 1:23). Matthew is making it clear that he understands that this child is God; "God with us."

 

 

The Jewish Scholars say Matthew was reading a faulty Greek Translation of Isaiah 7:14 .According to Them there was no mention of Virgin in Original Hebrew bible.

Isaiah 7:14 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Since i have no knowledge of Hebrew i have nothing more to add.

 

 

Jesus claimed authority to forgive sins, an authority that belonged to God only. The LORD (YHWH) is the One pictured in the Old Testament who forgives sin (Jeremiah 31:34).When Jesus healed one paralyzed man, He also said to him, "Son, your sins are forgiven you" (Mark 2:5). The scribes who heard this reasoned He was blaspheming, because, as they rightly understood and asked, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (verses 6-7). Responding to the scribes, Jesus said: "Why do you raise such questions in your hearts?...But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (verses 8-10).

 

Jesus also says man can ask forgiveness for sins of fellow men from god.

 

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Matthew 6:15: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

 

 

He also says in above verses it is easier FOR MEN to forgive sins(of fellow men)

[chandu_69]

 

Jesus received worship on many occasions without forbidding such acts. The first and second of the Ten Commandments forbid worship of anyone or anything other than God (Exodus 20:2-5). Yet Jesus accepted worship and did not rebuke those who chose to kneel before Him and worship.

 

It appears form bible that Angels are also worshipped.

 

Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.

 

No explicit statement from Jesus that he is God(while he was On earth).

 

Jesus was slightly more clear when he says It is Only god who is Good.

 

Mark 10:18:And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

 

And then Jesus says It is only Father(God) who knows Every thing

 

 

Matthew 24:36 :But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

[chandu_69]

Hebrews 9:27 (King James Version)

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

 

I mistakenly Posted the explanation given.

 

The verse clearly prohibits Reincarnation.With regards to Elijah, john etc they are exceptions if your interpretation that Jesus is reincarnation elijah etc is valid.

 

No reincarnation is mentioned for ordinary Men.

[primate]

 

The Jewish Scholars say Matthew was reading a faulty Greek Translation of Isaiah 7:14 .According to Them there was no mention of Virgin in Original Hebrew bible.

Isaiah 7:14 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Since i have no knowledge of Hebrew i have nothing more to add.

 

Whether Mary should have been a virgin or not, is beside the point. Anyway, this is still an ongoing debate. The point is, that Matthew accepted Jesus Christ as the God of the Old Testament. If you accept the gospel of Matthew, you accept that Christ is God.

 

 

Jesus also says man can ask forgiveness for sins of fellow men from god.

 

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

 

Matthew 6:15: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

 

He also says in above verses it is easier FOR MEN to forgive sins(of fellow men)

 

Again, the point is how (in this case) Mark understood the specific situation: "Who can forgive sins but God alone?". To be forgiven by ordinary men, is obviously not the same as being forgiven by God. Otherwise, there would have been no need for Jesus Christ to die on the cross for the sins of all mankind.

 

 

It appears form bible that Angels are also worshipped.

 

Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.

 

No explicit statement from Jesus that he is God(while he was On earth).

 

Jesus was slightly more clear when he says It is Only god who is Good.

 

Mark 10:18:And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

 

 

When John the apostle fell down to worship the angel, the angel refused to accept worship, saying, "You must not do that!...Worship God!" (Revelation 22:8-9).

 

And Jesus is not refusing to accept the title "Good," but rather is questioning the young ruler's motives ("Why are you calling me good?"). And if He is accepting the title "Good" as applicable to Himself - and indeed, elsewhere specifically applies it to Himself - and God alone is "good" in these terms, Jesus is implicitly declaring His own Deity. For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - Mark 10:18

 

 

And then Jesus says It is only Father(God) who knows Every thing

 

Matthew 24:36 :But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

Jesus was talking here about knowledge of the end of times. I don’t deny there is a difference between the Father and the Son. In the Christian Trinity, Father and Son are different, but they are both God. Ultimately everything is consciousness or knowledge. So, any difference between the Father and the Son must be in terms of consciousness or knowledge.

 

I already made it clear that the Christian panentheistic concept of God is similar to the Vashnava concept of God. Consequently, if Christ is God and Jesus was His avatar and His Son, then it follows that Christ is Krishna and Jesus is at the same level as Krishna avatar.

 

Let’s take this comparison one step further. Melvin and I more or less agreed in another thread: Brahman is the Father, Vishnu/Krishna is the Son, and Consciousness/Paramatma is the Holy Spirit. So, the difference between the Father and the Son in Christianity, might be similar to the difference between Brahman and Krishna in Vaishnavism..

 

 

Hebrews 9:27 (King James Version)

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

 

I mistakenly Posted the explanation given.

 

The verse clearly prohibits Reincarnation.With regards to Elijah, john etc they are exceptions if your interpretation that Jesus is reincarnation elijah etc is valid.

 

No reincarnation is mentioned for ordinary Men.

 

First of all, I didn’t state that Jesus was a reincarnation of Elijah. The fact that people thought Jesus was a reincarnation of Elijah, or any other ancient prophet, indicates that reincarnation of ordinary men was commonly accepted in those days, and it also was implied in Jesus' question. Back then, of course, no one suspected that Jesus was in fact an incarnation of God.