rituals, faith & superstition

[arjun2826]

Hinduism is one of the religion that counts the most rituals.

Everywhere in India people make ritual.

But why do they really practice them ?

Is it by faith ? If this was true, so they would be able to explain the reason, the history of this ritual. But they often don't.

Is it by superstition? This means for example that if they don't practice, they will be punished by God. So in case, it is better to do.

Is it a social work ? With religion and its rituals, each person doesn't stay alone and is taken in a group. Consequently, rituals are performed only because if you don't you will be excluded from your surounding group, criticized by your neibourghood...

Rituals exist because of faith? Because of superstition? Or because of social pressure ?

Answer might be a mix of three sure.

In this case, exepted for the first answer, don't you think rituals are more a restriction of freedom ?

[sant]

Which rituals?

What happened about the marriage?

[Sephiroth]

 

Hinduism is one of the religion that counts the most rituals.

Everywhere in India people make ritual.

In this case, exepted for the first answer, don't you think rituals are more a restriction of freedom ?

 

Freedom to do what? Drink alcholol, indulge in free sex, party all night long in disco?

 

Some of this rituals as you call them requires the doers to maintain a strict diet and strict lifestyle. Kavadi carrying (common during Thaipusam in Malaysia) for example requires a person to be "clean" physically, mentally and spiritually for about a month.

 

While to someone like you, this could be consider as "restriction to freedom", to the practitioners it is an exercise for the Mind, Body and Soul.

[arjun2826]

 

Which rituals?

What happened about the marriage?

 

 

Hi Sant,

 

Rituals as puja every morning. Deity procession and all ritual linked to samskara.

Concerning the mariage, nothing is still done. Fight in family is still going on. Let time do its work and let see..

[arjun2826]

 

Freedom to do what? Drink alcholol, indulge in free sex, party all night long in disco?

This is really funny because I never thought about that. But strangely, YOU fast refered to free sex, alcohol, night party. Do you have any complex with these things ? Do you miss them ?? LOL

I drink alcohol sometimes, it doesn't mean I am not clean "mentally or physically". It only means I like good tastes. Plus some alcohol like wine or champagne are said to be good for health is you drink little quantity. And I don't feel any complex with that. I know I control it because I drink very little and it's a pleasure. But seems, you never drunk, may be you don't even know the taste, but still you judge things by apparence like a child would do it.

While to someone like you, this could be considered as "restriction to freedom", to the practitioners it is an exercise for the Mind, Body and Soul.

Sure it is a way to keep in good health.

To keep in good mind ? I don't know. If people don't share the point of view of rituals, they won't be good in mind.

Plus, if you don't do rituals doesn't mean you will not have exercise for mind body or soul. You can do sports, eat good products with fish, vegetables, chicken, fruits.

And if you are happy doing this, you will plus be in a good soul.

You see, I think it is better to have a good taste of life and to control it, better than getting scared of it and judging apparences without even knowing what it is about.

 

[arjun2826]

This is very interesting because this topic is all about controlling your life or being submitted to rituals.

Rituals were invented by our ancestrors. Because these people were so clever, they understood that eating vegetable was good for health even if science at that time was not there to prove it.

They understood that doing puja every morning was bringing a good soul, a kind of internal peace. You remind from where you come, your deities, your place in this world, and the importance of things, thoughts, family..

 

But don't you think, you can get all these benefits with another way :

For example eating by yourself more vegetables, more fruits, less meat, making more sports, drinking less alcohol, sleeping normal time...

Don't you think, you can spend for example 10 minutes a day (when you want) to meditate and do the work that is supposed to be done during puja for example ?

 

It is all about controlling you life like an adult responsible... not being fully submitted to rules (without sometimes even understanding it) like a child...

 

What do you think of it ? Maybe I am wrong. Please correct, if so.

[sant]

 

Rituals as puja every morning. Deity procession and all ritual linked to samskara

Can you give an example of these morning ritulas.

I still dont get it.Are you forced to do it.

[arjun2826]

 

Can you give an example of these morning ritulas.

I still dont get it.Are you forced to do it.

 

Ok. I am leaving abroad. Overhere, in the morning in the appartement, I wake up, have bath, pray quickly god as my parent told me since I am young, have breakfast, and go to work. This is my routine, shortly said.

 

Now imagine, now I am in India. I wake up in the house, have bath, then have to do Puja as all my family in India perform it. It means, go outside with your towel on you, pick up some flowers (around 15), put one flower on each deitie, pray all the gods, put the yellow and red "powder" on all deities, take some coton, make it as fine as a thread, put it in a small plate with oil, light the coton then ring the small bell while praying god and drawing circle with the plate in the hand. Then I have to go outside of the house allways with the towel on you with some water, pray the tulsi, put the yellow or red powder on the tulsi, throw some water on it and near it with eyes closed, then burn some incense.

All this rituals must be done in one exact order (that I don't remember now ;-) ), according to my family in India.

 

First, nobody force me to do this, but as somebody must do once a day, I have to do it because I am in India, otherwise people will criticize.

Secondly, I am sure some clever people invented these rituals several hundreds years ago with a meaning to that. But actually I don't understand it, my family overthere perform it without wondering this way (plus you should'nt ask this kind of question, because it would mean you reconsider the ancestror logic...) and consequentely, they are not able to answer my question.

Third : Even if there was a logic to this ritual hundreds years ago, I wonder if this logic is still valid today.

Four : If the aim of this ritual is to make us meditate on our life, on our way of life (that is a very good thing in my opinion), I think there are other way to meditate instead of putting flowers on each deitie in the morning ...

 

Well I hope you didn't think I was criticizing anybody. It was not my goal. I am just trying to understand some different way of life and maybe practice it if I am convinced of it, and if it belongs to my 'dharma'.

[sambya]

 

Hinduism is one of the religion that counts the most rituals.

Everywhere in India people make ritual.

But why do they really practice them ?

Is it by faith ? If this was true, so they would be able to explain the reason, the history of this ritual. But they often don't.

Is it by superstition? This means for example that if they don't practice, they will be punished by God. So in case, it is better to do.

Is it a social work ? With religion and its rituals, each person doesn't stay alone and is taken in a group. Consequently, rituals are performed only because if you don't you will be excluded from your surounding group, criticized by your neibourghood...

Rituals exist because of faith? Because of superstition? Or because of social pressure ?

Answer might be a mix of three sure.

In this case, exepted for the first answer, don't you think rituals are more a restriction of freedom ?

 

there are numerous causes why people follow rituals here in india . for most it is mixture of following tradition and getting a smooth material life . when asked these people would say " our forefathers have done it " or " its compulsory " or " im not suppossed to break tradition . no one feel imposed or pressurised . its in the very nature of indian people to folloe tradition . they accept and love them just like eating sleeping or washing . it is a part of everyday life . it is not possible to understand this apparently strange psychology through western minds .

 

then there are another group who want self realization and love these rituals . thn ofcourse there is a minority group which is heavily influenced by some other material philosophies or western materialism and shuns such activities . fear of punishment from god is low in india than in western countries . here people often worship to get blessings from god to help smoothen their lives . they might be scared that such blessings would stop without worship , but they are not scared that god will punish them .

 

rituals are not a restriction of freedom in india . at least thats what majority thinks . in fact freedom is so high in india that you can remain a hindu without ever having visited any temple even once !

[sant]

 

Now imagine, now I am in India. I wake up in the house, have bath, then have to do Puja as all my family in India perform it. It means, go outside with your towel on you, pick up some flowers (around 15), put one flower on each deitie, pray all the gods, put the yellow and red "powder" on all deities, take some coton, make it as fine as a thread, put it in a small plate with oil, light the coton then ring the small bell while praying god and drawing circle with the plate in the hand. Then I have to go outside of the house allways with the towel on you with some water, pray the tulsi, put the yellow or red powder on the tulsi, throw some water on it and near it with eyes closed, then burn some incense.

All this rituals must be done in one exact order (that I don't remember now ;-) ), according to my family in India.

 

Nope only my grandmother does this also only some of it.I dont think in this way exact.

Anyway i told you how these rituals work.Remember.

The Rituals also depend on each sampradaya.I dont see any one in my family doing all this in the same exact way like you do it.

Ask your family where they learnt these from.

Remember i showed you a puraan a ganesh puraan.Did i show you?

The rituals mentioned there do you remember.

[sant]

Any way listen to sambya and ask him he is intelligent and also a brahman so he'll explain to you better than me.whatever hes said above is right.

Edited July 6, 2009 by sant

[sambya]

 

I drink alcohol sometimes, it doesn't mean I am not clean "mentally or physically". It only means I like good tastes. Plus some alcohol like wine or champagne are said to be good for health is you drink little quantity. And I don't feel any complex with that. I know I control it because I drink very little and it's a pleasure.

 

spiritually speaking it does mean your are unclean . ill explain how --

 

the main point in indian spirituality is that we are illusioned by maya into believing ourselves as things which we are not . we identify ourselves with silly little temporal objects and constantly suffer as a result . to realize and come out of this persistent delusion is what is called moksha or nirvana and the practise to come out of its sticky clutches is called sadhana . this moksha calls for perfect purity in mind body and thought . this includes things like perfect truthfulness and perfect brahmancharya even in mind . it might sound utopian and ansurd but it is factually possible and can be easily seen in the mystics of ancient and modern india . now things like alcohol actually deludes the already ignorant mind even further ! one is not able to remain in proper senses and affects you discrimitaing power and buddhi - the chief characterisitcs which diffrentiates us from animals . thus it clouds your mind . in this way it instantly harms your sadhana and makes you ' 'unclean' . here 'unclean' means disturbed conciousness or restless mind . all the rituals , puja sadha that we do is to calm this ever restless mind so that we can catch the reflection of our self in out mind .

 

Plus, if you don't do rituals doesn't mean you will not have exercise for mind body or soul. You can do sports, eat good products with fish, vegetables, chicken, fruits.

And if you are happy doing this, you will plus be in a good soul.

You see, I think it is better to have a good taste of life and to control it, better than getting scared of it and judging apparences without even knowing what it is about.

 

 

firstly rituals are not what the soul need . infact it is more binding for a soul's final liberation !! rituals are intermediatory practises which assist in gradual cleansing of the mind from the good and bad impressions gathered in its previous lives . it is a part of sadhana .

 

so theoritically one can be a clean soul withot following rituals . but practically speaking this is impossible . rituals helps us to attain the purity . here the purity that im speaking of is perfect purity . also , having a good soul and living happy and peacefull are not the same terms !!

[arjun2826]

 

Nope only my grandmother does this also only some of it.I dont think in this way exact.

Anyway i told you how these rituals work.Remember.

The Rituals also depend on each sampradaya.I dont see any one in my family doing all this in the same exact way like you do it.

Ask your family where they learnt these from.

Remember i showed you a puraan a ganesh puraan.Did i show you?

The rituals mentioned there do you remember.

 

Sorry Sant, I don't understand all the words

'Sampradaya' and 'puraan'

[Sephiroth]

arjun2826 :

 

 

This is really funny because I never thought about that. But strangely, YOU fast refered to free sex, alcohol, night party. Do you have any complex with these things ? Do you miss them ?? LOL

 

Don't be absurd and don't laugh. Spiritualism is not a laughing matters. And No, I do not miss doing Evil things.

 

 

I drink alcohol sometimes, it doesn't mean I am not clean "mentally or physically". It only means I like good tastes.

 

Yes, you are "unclean" Physically and Mentally. Almost ALL religions on the Planet (except maybe Christianity) have stated that drinking alcholol is bad for you. Even in Islam, it is stated that the alcholol you consume will stay in your blood for 40 days (and within this 40 days, you are UNCLEAN).

 

Right now, in my eyes, you look like a drunkard who is trying to justify his drinking habit.

 

 

You can do sports, eat good products with fish, vegetables, chicken, fruits. And if you are happy doing this, you will plus be in a good soul.

 

Eating your vegetable does not make you a good person. It will only give you a temporary satisfaction and in the end, you will still be a drunkard at the end of the day.

 

Spiritualism requires DISCIPLINE. Without Discipline and Self-Control, you cannot achieve Spiritualism. Right now, you don't even have the discipline to restrict the food and drink which enters your mouth.

 

 

You see, I think it is better to have a good taste of life and to control it, better than getting scared of it and judging apparences without even knowing what it is about.

 

Excuse of the drunkards. They always talk about how they are in control and how they could stop drinking anytime they want. The truth is - they are never in control. The bottle controls them.

 

Evil IS Evil - and alcholol is one of that Evil. Only fools will choose to get to know it, thinking that they could "control" themselves once it takes hold.

[Sephiroth]

sambya :

 

 

so theoritically one can be a clean soul withot following rituals . but practically speaking this is impossible . rituals helps us to attain the purity . here the purity that im speaking of is perfect purity . also , having a good soul and living happy and peacefull are not the same terms !!

 

Actually, it is not impossible, but very hard. Gautama Buddha have taught us that (if you accept).

 

According to the Buddha, performing rituals itself doesn't help one achieve Enlightnment (like what you said) without knowing why one does it. He states that blind faith and blindly doing rituals will blind a person and it will not help him to achieve Enlightment.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Sephiroth

[sant]

Sampradaya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Puranas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[sambya]

 

sambya :

 

 

 

Actually, it is not impossible, but very hard. Gautama Buddha have taught us that (if you accept).

 

According to the Buddha, performing rituals itself doesn't help one achieve Enlightnment (like what you said) without knowing why one does it. He states that blind faith and blindly doing rituals will blind a person and it will not help him to achieve Enlightment.

 

yes i accept that . its not strictly impossible but only avatara and divine humans are capable of attaining liberation without observance of any rituals . for the overwhelming majority or nimna-adhikaris it remains a must .

[Sephiroth]

 

yes i accept that . its not strictly impossible but only avatara and divine humans are capable of attaining liberation without observance of any rituals . for the overwhelming majority or nimna-adhikaris it remains a must .

 

Actually, it is this kind of thinking which makes Hindusm and Buddhism obselete.

 

The people like the Teacher (Gautama Buddha) teaches Man how to become self-liberate, and Divine Ones like Sri Krishna leaves the World after giving Bhavagad Gita for Man to follow, and what do people like you do?

 

You put aside all this wisdoms and teaching by labelling them as gods and divine beings and continue to do foolish things by not following what they have taught.

 

IF they believe that Man is incapable of self-liberation, they will not be bothered to teach. It is up to the clever ones to learn and try to liberate oneself while the foolish ones could continue to live in Maya of self-doubt.

[arjun2826]

 

there are numerous causes why people follow rituals here in india . for most it is mixture of following tradition and getting a smooth material life . when asked these people would say " our forefathers have done it " or " its compulsory " or " im not suppossed to break tradition . no one feel imposed or pressurised . its in the very nature of indian people to folloe tradition . they accept and love them just like eating sleeping or washing . it is a part of everyday life . it is not possible to understand this apparently strange psychology through western minds .

 

then there are another group who want self realization and love these rituals . thn ofcourse there is a minority group which is heavily influenced by some other material philosophies or western materialism and shuns such activities . fear of punishment from god is low in india than in western countries . here people often worship to get blessings from god to help smoothen their lives . they might be scared that such blessings would stop without worship , but they are not scared that god will punish them .

 

rituals are not a restriction of freedom in india . at least thats what majority thinks . in fact freedom is so high in india that you can remain a hindu without ever having visited any temple even once !

 

Ok, to summurize, what you mean is that rituals are performed because it is :

- a tradition. As they are used to doing it, they don't feel pressurised (I agree)

- a way to get blessings from god (ok)

- not a fear of punishment from god (I know lots of indian who thinks the contrary and try to make you scared...)

[arjun2826]

 

spiritually speaking it does mean your are unclean . ill explain how --

 

the main point in indian spirituality is that we are illusioned by maya into believing ourselves as things which we are not . we identify ourselves with silly little temporal objects and constantly suffer as a result . to realize and come out of this persistent delusion is what is called moksha or nirvana and the practise to come out of its sticky clutches is called sadhana . this moksha calls for perfect purity in mind body and thought . this includes things like perfect truthfulness and perfect brahmancharya even in mind . it might sound utopian and ansurd but it is factually possible and can be easily seen in the mystics of ancient and modern india . now things like alcohol actually deludes the already ignorant mind even further ! one is not able to remain in proper senses and affects you discrimitaing power and buddhi - the chief characterisitcs which diffrentiates us from animals . thus it clouds your mind . in this way it instantly harms your sadhana and makes you ' 'unclean' . here 'unclean' means disturbed conciousness or restless mind . all the rituals , puja sadha that we do is to calm this ever restless mind so that we can catch the reflection of our self in out mind .

 

 

Ok : what you mean is that to reach moksha, we need to be clean. Alcohol clouds our mind. Ritual at the contrary helps us to come out of this persistent delusion.

 

Does it mean that as a hindu, you never drink ?

 

Now, I know lots of acts that clouds our mind :

Imagine you didn't eat. You are hungry : This clouds your mind.

Imagine you eat to much. You feel sleepy : This clouds your mind.

Imagine you feel a pain. You feel to cry : This clouds your mind.

Imagine you get scared. There is automaticaly adrenaline in your blood sent by your brain : This clouds you mind.

What I mean is that : even if you don't take any substance (like alcohol for example), your body produces its own substance. Consequentely, it "clouds your mind".

 

So if I share your point of view, that would mean that man shoud not feel sleepy after eating to much, should not feel hungry if he didn't eat ... to summarize should not have any feelings.. Do you think it is consistent, and this is realistic ?

 

I never drink alcohol when I pray. For me it is only a question of respect for God.

[arjun2826]

 

arjun2826 :

 

 

 

Don't be absurd and don't laugh. Spiritualism is not a laughing matters. And No, I do not miss doing Evil things.

 

 

 

Yes, you are "unclean" Physically and Mentally. Almost ALL religions on the Planet (except maybe Christianity) have stated that drinking alcholol is bad for you. Even in Islam, it is stated that the alcholol you consume will stay in your blood for 40 days (and within this 40 days, you are UNCLEAN).

 

Right now, in my eyes, you look like a drunkard who is trying to justify his drinking habit.

 

 

 

Eating your vegetable does not make you a good person. It will only give you a temporary satisfaction and in the end, you will still be a drunkard at the end of the day.

 

Spiritualism requires DISCIPLINE. Without Discipline and Self-Control, you cannot achieve Spiritualism. Right now, you don't even have the discipline to restrict the food and drink which enters your mouth.

 

 

 

Excuse of the drunkards. They always talk about how they are in control and how they could stop drinking anytime they want. The truth is - they are never in control. The bottle controls them.

 

Evil IS Evil - and alcholol is one of that Evil. Only fools will choose to get to know it, thinking that they could "control" themselves once it takes hold.

 

 

Ok, to summarize what you said :

- you repeated three times that I was a drunkard LOL. One time was enough. Seems you have difficulties to say briefly things LOL.

- Spiritualism need discipline and self control.

 

To answer your notices :

 

First : Drinking once a week for example doesn't make of you a drunkard. I don't get surprised you say this because you never drunk I suppose and I am sure you talk of someting you don't know. In that case, in my opinion, people should not talk LOL.

 

Second : Spiritualism need discipline and self control. I totally agree, and this is what I do. Only, I have my fashion to do. I feel good with that. You have yours, you feel good with yours. I don't criticize.

 

Third : What about if a medicine contains alcohol ? Would you say that you will never authorize it because it contains alcohol and would prefer risk the life of somebody that is closed to you ?

[arjun2826]

 

sambya :

 

 

 

Actually, it is not impossible, but very hard. Gautama Buddha have taught us that (if you accept).

 

According to the Buddha, performing rituals itself doesn't help one achieve Enlightnment (like what you said) without knowing why one does it. He states that blind faith and blindly doing rituals will blind a person and it will not help him to achieve Enlightment.

 

I totally agree with you. And this is what I am trying to do

[sambya]

 

Actually, it is this kind of thinking which makes Hindusm and Buddhism obselete.

 

The people like the Teacher (Gautama Buddha) teaches Man how to become self-liberate, and Divine Ones like Sri Krishna leaves the World after giving Bhavagad Gita for Man to follow, and what do people like you do?

 

You put aside all this wisdoms and teaching by labelling them as gods and divine beings and continue to do foolish things by not following what they have taught.

 

IF they believe that Man is incapable of self-liberation, they will not be bothered to teach. It is up to the clever ones to learn and try to liberate oneself while the foolish ones could continue to live in Maya of self-doubt.

 

i dont understand what you are trying to suggest when you say hinduism and buddhism are obsolete .

 

well , people labell some individuals as god mainly due to many complex reasons and im not going into those details now . but personally i believe that the message taught by those elevated individuals are far more important than worshipping them as gods . this is because their very advent(if they are gods) is to educate the ignorant . its more imporatant to follow their teachings than create a lavish temple for them . but their is also no harm if someone worships them with utmost sincerity after obeying to his revealed path ! and i also agree with you that the power to liberate oneself lies entirely on your own self .

 

but you did not understand the real message that i wanted to convey . when i said avatar or divine beings i was reffering to those rare individuals who are seen once in a while in history . but for the majority of people getting liberated without following any rituals is practically impossible . if you beg to differ show me some examples where you saw such an individual !!

[sambya]

 

- not a fear of punishment from god (I know lots of indian who thinks the contrary and try to make you scared...)

 

thats because they are often left with no better answer when they are made to confront some questioning individual with an inquisitive mind . it is an escape psychology by scaring the opponent .

[sambya]

 

Ok : what you mean is that to reach moksha, we need to be clean. Alcohol clouds our mind. Ritual at the contrary helps us to come out of this persistent delusion.

 

Does it mean that as a hindu, you never drink ?

 

Now, I know lots of acts that clouds our mind :

Imagine you didn't eat. You are hungry : This clouds your mind.

Imagine you eat to much. You feel sleepy : This clouds your mind.

Imagine you feel a pain. You feel to cry : This clouds your mind.

Imagine you get scared. There is automaticaly adrenaline in your blood sent by your brain : This clouds you mind.

What I mean is that : even if you don't take any substance (like alcohol for example), your body produces its own substance. Consequentely, it "clouds your mind".

 

So if I share your point of view, that would mean that man shoud not feel sleepy after eating to much, should not feel hungry if he didn't eat ... to summarize should not have any feelings.. Do you think it is consistent, and this is realistic ?

 

I never drink alcohol when I pray. For me it is only a question of respect for God.

 

i do not drink because i dont like drinking . neither is it supported by scriptures nor did i like it at any point of time .

 

yes , all those activities that you have reffered also clouds your mind . so in the final stages one has to transcend hunger and sleep . but thats the last stage . and these activities are indispensible and are basic requirements . either you die or you continue doing these . but that is definately not the case with drinking alcohol . that is a voluntary activity and its power to cloud the mind is thousand times stronger than that of ordinary thirst or hunger . so a spiritual aspirant should begin by discarding those habits that can be done away with .

 

also most of the mental agitation and cloudiness can be attributed to ourselves . think of a situation when you are infatuated for any other person . the power to cloud and agitate the mind is tremendous !! thing of greed for money , lust , thirst for power , love towards pets etc etc . these are all created by man and have much much more power than hunger or sleeping . when you analyze you shall see that it is self induced attachments that disturb the mind more . the natural agitators are highly insignificant .