rituals, faith & superstition

[arjun2826]

 

i do not drink because i dont like drinking . neither is it supported by scriptures nor did i like it at any point of time .

 

yes , all those activities that you have reffered also clouds your mind . so in the final stages one has to transcend hunger and sleep . but thats the last stage . and these activities are indispensible and are basic requirements . either you die or you continue doing these . but that is definately not the case with drinking alcohol . that is a voluntary activity and its power to cloud the mind is thousand times stronger than that of ordinary thirst or hunger . so a spiritual aspirant should begin by discarding those habits that can be done away with .

 

also most of the mental agitation and cloudiness can be attributed to ourselves . think of a situation when you are infatuated for any other person . the power to cloud and agitate the mind is tremendous !! thing of greed for money , lust , thirst for power , love towards pets etc etc . these are all created by man and have much much more power than hunger or sleeping . when you analyze you shall see that it is self induced attachments that disturb the mind more . the natural agitators are highly insignificant .

 

Ok I think I understand what you mean concerning alcohol and 'self induced attachements'. But I have doubt concerning some of your interpretation.

Concerning self induced attachements, I totally agree with your point of view. I think even this argument is still true for all external factor (for example somebody who makes you feel angry, but you must stay cool). In this last case it is called 'stoicism'

Now what I disagree is that alcohol must not be seen as the devil sign. It must be a pleasure like dancing, singing, laughing.

Plus, i am sure there is a no ha restriction in any scriptures.. Is it ?

Anyway, i respect your way of life.. If you feel good with it.

[kshama]

 

Hinduism is one of the religion that counts the most rituals.

Everywhere in India people make ritual.

But why do they really practice them ?

Is it by faith ? If this was true, so they would be able to explain the reason, the history of this ritual. But they often don't.

Is it by superstition? This means for example that if they don't practice, they will be punished by God. So in case, it is better to do.

Is it a social work ? With religion and its rituals, each person doesn't stay alone and is taken in a group. Consequently, rituals are performed only because if you don't you will be excluded from your surounding group, criticized by your neibourghood...

Rituals exist because of faith? Because of superstition? Or because of social pressure ?

Answer might be a mix of three sure.

In this case, exepted for the first answer, don't you think rituals are more a restriction of freedom ?

 

Arjun ji,

 

Rituals or any religious activities in Hinduism has its own significance. Sometimes, people that are inquisitive to know the underlying significance of any rituals tend to ask the wrong kind of people. This leads to confusion and many more. So I suggest, if you have some questions about some ritual, ask any reputed swamis or people that are well-versed in what they are doing.

 

I just feel sorry for people who finds rituals restricting their freedom. How misinformed and confused they are, may god help them soon. What progress does this so-called craving for freedom people get in terms of making a positive mark on their spiritual side? Only time gets wasted for futile things...

 

People often forget why they are born, they prioritize things that won't help them to gain anything to attain liberation. In every birth there is death. We would never know when our time is up. So...it is wise to use the time we have wisely, to get the right information from the right people and embark on our spiritual journey. Namaste.

[Kali_Upasaka]

Even Sadhana can become a mere ritual if you are not careful. You might have seen people with Japa malas in a bag reciting the mantras mechanically with eyes open. They will be looking at people who are around them and also listening to their conversation.

 

Here Japa becomes a mere ritual. Bhakthi is to be combined with Shraddha.

 

Samskaras are the main rituals of the Hindus.

 

The line between faith and superstition is a very fine one. The general rule applied by most people is "What I believe is faith. What you believe is Superstition.":)

[Sephiroth]

arjun2826 :

 

 

First : Drinking once a week for example doesn't make of you a drunkard. I don't get surprised you say this because you never drunk I suppose and I am sure you talk of someting you don't know. In that case, in my opinion, people should not talk LOL.

 

Hmph ... you cannot understand why I have called you a drunkard, did you?

 

 

 

Second : Spiritualism need discipline and self control. I totally agree, and this is what I do. Only, I have my fashion to do. I feel good with that. You have yours, you feel good with yours. I don't criticize.

 

What you have is Self-Excuse. Nothing more. You have no discipline and you will NOT progress in Spiritualism. All you could ever be is a fellow who uses excuses to remain in an ignorant state. That is all you will ever be.

 

 

Third : What about if a medicine contains alcohol ? Would you say that you will never authorize it because it contains alcohol and would prefer risk the life of somebody that is closed to you ?

 

Your drinking habits have NOTHING to do with Medicine. It is merely another excuse for a drunkard to drink.

 

 

 

I totally agree with you. And this is what I am trying to do

 

You are fooling yourself and busy trying to fool others with your excuses. THAT is what you're doing.

[Sephiroth]

 

... but for the majority of people getting liberated without following any rituals is practically impossible . if you beg to differ show me some examples where you saw such an individual !!

 

I know only one - Gautama Buddha. He have rejected most of rituals which associated with Hindusm at his time and he had become Liberated.

 

That example is good enough for me.

[sambya]

 

Now what I disagree is that alcohol must not be seen as the devil sign. It must be a pleasure like dancing, singing, laughing.

Plus, i am sure there is a no ha restriction in any scriptures.. Is it ?

 

 

no its not a devil sign or something like that !! in fact ancient hindus frequently used alcoholic beverages like soma and sura in celbrations and even in rituals !

 

it is definately a pleasure item ! but from a purely spiritual point of view pleasure items are the one that distracts and clouds the mind most ..........so for a spiritual aspirant such things are strictly forbidden , one who is not so inclined towards spirituality can definately carry on with his drinking !!

[Sephiroth]

 

no its not a devil sign or something like that !! in fact ancient hindus frequently used alcoholic beverages like soma and sura in celbrations and even in rituals !

 

it is definately a pleasure item ! but from a purely spiritual point of view pleasure items are the one that distracts and clouds the mind most ..........so for a spiritual aspirant such things are strictly forbidden , one who is not so inclined towards spirituality can definately carry on with his drinking !!

 

So speaks the Drunkards.

[sambya]

 

I know only one - Gautama Buddha. He have rejected most of rituals which associated with Hindusm at his time and he had become Liberated.

 

That example is good enough for me.

 

now , i think you have understood what i originally meant . one example in recorded history !!! do you think that it is very practical to do away with rituals for ordinary aspirants ? true, buddha said that anyone can become a buddha but the question remains how many did become a buddha in 4000 years ?

[Sephiroth]

 

now , i think you have understood what i originally meant . one example in recorded history !!! do you think that it is very practical to do away with rituals for ordinary aspirants ? true, buddha said that anyone can become a buddha but the question remains how many did become a buddha in 4000 years ?

 

Do you think that being a Buddha means that a person have to dress like the Buddha, speak and walk around like the Teacher (Gautama Buddha)? If that is your understand of Buddha, I will say that you are sadly mistaken.

 

Being a Buddha means being liberated from Rebirth. And that could only be achieve AT THE MOMENT OF DEATH.

 

Which means in the past 2,500 years (since Gautama Buddha), there could be countless Buddhas who followed His ways and liberate themselves. However, they do not stay on this World after Liberation.

 

This is because a person who have become Buddha (liberated) can still fall back into the Cycle of Birth and Death if he sway from the Truth even for a moment. It will take an exception Man with a great and compassionate heart to allow himself to remain on this Planet to help others and at the same time, risk falling back into the Cycle again.

 

The first is Gautama Buddha, the next shall be Maitreya Buddha.

[arjun2826]

 

Arjun ji,

 

Rituals or any religious activities in Hinduism has its own significance. Sometimes, people that are inquisitive to know the underlying significance of any rituals tend to ask the wrong kind of people. This leads to confusion and many more. So I suggest, if you have some questions about some ritual, ask any reputed swamis or people that are well-versed in what they are doing.

 

 

Is there any swamis on this website ? :-)

[arjun2826]

 

The line between faith and superstition is a very fine one. The general rule applied by most people is "What I believe is faith. What you believe is Superstition.":)

 

And even in some state in india, they don't even know what superstition is. Consequently everything is faith, everything is asked by God...

[arjun2826]

 

arjun2826 :

Hmph ... you cannot understand why I have called you a drunkard, did you?

 

Mmmmhh.. seems really you have problem to say briefly things LOL... It's the fourth time you repeat the same thing. Did you drink or are you normal ? ;-)...

 

 

arjun2826 :

What you have is Self-Excuse. Nothing more. You have no discipline and you will NOT progress in Spiritualism. All you could ever be is a fellow who uses excuses to remain in an ignorant state. That is all you will ever be.

 

How do you know I will not progress in spirtualism. Can you say you progressed more than me ?

 

 

 

arjun2826 :

Your drinking habits have NOTHING to do with Medicine. It is merely another excuse for a drunkard to drink.

 

It is the fifth time you repeat I am a drunkard.. LOL

Please don't try to bring confusion and answer my previous question : Imagine for medical needs you have to take alcohol or morphine for example. Will you refuse because it is the "Evil's sign" as you said ? or will you accept ?

I know you cannot answer : if you refused and remain consistent with what you said, you risk your health, and if you accept, you won't be consistent with what you wrote earlier... This is the dilemma of giving such no sense answers .. ;-)

 

 

 

arjun2826 :

You are fooling yourself and busy trying to fool others with your excuses. THAT is what you're doing.

I think you are not able to go deeply in some topics. Maybe you get scared of it (and I can understand), maybe you never tried it, so consequentely, you speak of things you don't know, you accuse other, and repeat 5 times the same sentence LOL... So it is funny, and you lose credibility.

Maybe you should try to understand the topic, the problem, and try to build an credible argument.

Drinking a lot makes of people drunkard

But drinking sometimes doesn't mean this. But maybe if you didn't understand my writting, you will certainely feel the need to say a sixth time that I am a drunkard .. LOL

Please try to not make me laugh once more ;-)

[arjun2826]

 

So speaks the Drunkards.

7th time you repeat the same thing

Don't loose credibility little sephiroth .. ;-)

[arjun2826]

 

no its not a devil sign or something like that !! in fact ancient hindus frequently used alcoholic beverages like soma and sura in celbrations and even in rituals !

 

it is definately a pleasure item ! but from a purely spiritual point of view pleasure items are the one that distracts and clouds the mind most ..........so for a spiritual aspirant such things are strictly forbidden , one who is not so inclined towards spirituality can definately carry on with his drinking !!

Ok, I understand your answer and like it.

Could you please tell me what you called spirituality ? Is it faith ? is it practicing rituals ?

[kshama]

 

Is there any swamis on this website ? :-)

 

Arjun Ji,

 

I do not know, but why not? There might be swamis here. There are many well-learned people, be it academically and/or spiritually, here in this very forum.

 

Sometimes even a beggar on the street can impart valuable wisdom. Knowledge though vast, it fails to make the learned noticeable through the naked eyes. Namaste.

[sambya]

 

So speaks the Drunkards.

\

im not speaking for drinking but merely acknowledging that drinking habits has always been there in ancient india . you are certainly free to prove me wrong if you are knowledgable enough !!

 

 

 

Do you think that being a Buddha means that a person have to dress like the Buddha, speak and walk around like the Teacher (Gautama Buddha)? If that is your understand of Buddha, I will say that you are sadly mistaken.

do you not understand the bhava of the words when spoken ? i think you do not . when i said buddha i meant the enlightened state or buddhahood .

 

 

Being a Buddha means being liberated from Rebirth. And that could only be achieve AT THE MOMENT OF DEATH.

 

once again .......your shallow knowledge in hindu spirituality !! ha ha .

 

it is very much possible to get liberated while living in a body .........although only by rarest of rare individuals . they are called jivanmuktas or one who is liberated even while living . nirvikalpa samadhi which is considered as the highest perfectional stage automatically liberates a soul but he might live in that state for a period not extending 22 days . those few days of his living is also after moksha ......got it ?

 

 

Which means in the past 2,500 years (since Gautama Buddha), there could be countless Buddhas who followed His ways and liberate themselves. However, they do not stay on this World after Liberation.

 

 

ordinary liberation and historical buddha are not the same thing . characters like buddha come once in a millenia . they cannot be compared to many others getting liberated .

 

 

 

This is because a person who have become Buddha (liberated) can still fall back into the Cycle of Birth and Death if he sway from the Truth even for a moment.

ha ha ha !! you are a child . no it is never possible ...... the action of a liberated soul automatically corresponds to the divine will . he doesnt have to try to remain truthfull but his nature is perfected to such a degree that he cannot help but be trutfull . after liberation there is no chance of falling down ever . if someone falls down that prooves that he was never liberated in the first place !!

 

however there is a class of rare men (whom people like to worship or assign divinity ) who willingly comes back to the material world after liberation to teach people ...

 

 

why are you so arrogant .?.....it shows in you writings and i thought we are just discussing !!

[sant]

 

nirvikalpa samadhi which is considered as the highest perfectional stage automatically liberates a soul but he might live in that state for a period not extending 22 days .

can you explain that more sambya

[Sephiroth]

sambya :

 

 

im not speaking for drinking but merely acknowledging that drinking habits has always been there in ancient india . you are certainly free to prove me wrong if you are knowledgable enough !!

 

And why should I? By keep asking other to prove you to be wrong, you have already believed that you are correct. In such situation, explaining anything to you could be a waste of time.

 

 

i think you do not . when i said buddha i meant the enlightened state or buddhahood .

 

And what may I ask do you understand by this state of Buddhahood?

 

 

hey are called jivanmuktas or one who is liberated even while living .

 

Jivanmukta concept could only be found in Advaita Vedanta - which was founded by Adi Shankara. And it is the ONLY school which stated such concept where a person can achieve Moksha even while he still alive.

 

Jivanmukta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

nirvikalpa samadhi which is considered as the highest perfectional stage automatically liberates a soul but he might live in that state for a period not extending 22 days .

 

And what happens after the 22 days?

 

 

ordinary liberation and historical buddha are not the same thing . characters like buddha come once in a millenia . they cannot be compared to many others getting liberated .

 

Then you agree that there are other Buddhas who have come and went from the time Gautama Buddha was around to this day?

 

And there is no such thing as Historical Buddha. The True Buddha is Gautama Buddha ALONE. The next one could be Maitreya Buddha.

 

 

you are a child .

 

Thank you. I shall take that as a compliment.

 

And you are AFRAID. Why are you afraid?

[sambya]

 

sambya :

And why should I? By keep asking other to prove you to be wrong, you have already believed that you are correct. In such situation, explaining anything to you could be a waste of time.

 

now your are evading the simple question !! i assure you i am really interested to see the other way of understanding as seen by someone else ! i am eager to know what your views are about vedic culture on drinking !

 

 

And what may I ask do you understand by this state of Buddhahood?

when you reply to a question with another question ( which you did a lot of times) how can you expect others to reply to your question with an answer ?!! that a bad logic.......

 

but anyways since i cannot be you , here is what i mean by buddhahood and buddha :

 

buddhahood or attainment of bodhittva - a perfectional stage of human developement bothe materially and spiritually resulting in realization of the truth and consequent liberation , attained through the practise of deep contemplation and meditation . of course this is a highly inadequate answer , for details might extend into pages .

 

buddha - the price siddhartha gautama who set froth this exemplary renunciation by quitting his kingdom and famil in search of peace and truth . the person who had brahmajigyasa (spiritual inquisiton) merely by seeing different stages of a human life !! one who lead a austere life and underwent extreme tapasya before realizing and attaining peace and enlightment , drwing around him a group of influential disciples from which came forward the later world faith of buddhism !! this is buddha .

 

buddhahood and buddha himself are not the same terms ..

 

 

 

 

Jivanmukta concept could only be found in Advaita Vedanta - which was founded by Adi Shankara. And it is the ONLY school which stated such concept where a person can achieve Moksha even while he still alive.

 

Jivanmukta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

stop referring to wikipedia articles filled with mistakes !!

 

 

And what happens after the 22 days?

 

biologically he dies(bodily functions ceases)

spiritually he is liberated(moksha)

 

 

Then you agree that there are other Buddhas who have come and went from the time Gautama Buddha was around to this day?

 

And there is no such thing as Historical Buddha. The True Buddha is Gautama Buddha ALONE. The next one could be Maitreya Buddha.

 

are you a buddhist ?

[Sephiroth]

sambya :

 

 

i assure you i am really interested to see the other way of understanding as seen by someone else ! i am eager to know what your views are about vedic culture on drinking !

 

I don't see the purpose of me entertaining you in this matter. Have you not walk around stating how Vedic culture have allowed alcohol drinking?

 

 

buddhahood or attainment of bodhittva - a perfectional stage of human developement bothe materially and spiritually resulting in realization of the truth and consequent liberation , attained through the practise of deep contemplation and meditation . of course this is a highly inadequate answer , for details might extend into pages .

 

Buddhahood is nothing to do with attaining Bodhivatta. Matter a fact, such belief can only be found in Mahayana Buddhism, which Thervada Buddhism (teachings of Gautama Buddha) do not support.

 

If your goal is to obtain state of Bodhivatta, then you will not find enlightment and will still fall down to the cycle of rebirth.

 

 

stop referring to wikipedia articles filled with mistakes !!

 

That's funny, you usually use Wikipedia to support your claims in the past.

 

Anyway, as the Wikipedia have stated, ONLY those who believes in Advaita follows the belief of Jivamukti.

 

 

biologically he dies(bodily functions ceases)

spiritually he is liberated(moksha)

 

Then what is the use of him being alive for 22 days? Might as well that he dies straightaway.

 

In Thervada Buddhism, Gautama Buddha have achieved Enlightnment but he choose to suspend the final process (which involves physical death) in order to teach Humans about the Truth.

 

 

are you a buddhist ?

I'm the Serpeant that Guarded the Buddha in His meditation.

[sambya]

 

sambya :

I don't see the purpose of me entertaining you in this matter. Have you not walk around stating how Vedic culture have allowed alcohol drinking?

 

so you cannot prove me wrong

 

 

 

Buddhahood is nothing to do with attaining Bodhivatta. Matter a fact, such belief can only be found in Mahayana Buddhism, which Thervada Buddhism (teachings of Gautama Buddha) do not support.

 

If your goal is to obtain state of Bodhivatta, then you will not find enlightment and will still fall down to the cycle of rebirth.

 

i dont know what bodhivatta is . i was reffereing to bodhittva which is a word used in some indian languages meaning the stage or level of buddhahood .

 

 

 

 

That's funny, you usually use Wikipedia to support your claims in the past.

 

show me where ......!! one isolated case would not do ....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then what is the use of him being alive for 22 days? Might as well that he dies straightaway.

 

 

i said " a period not extending 22 days " .

 

he might die that very moment !!

 

 

 

In Thervada Buddhism, Gautama Buddha have achieved Enlightnment but he choose to suspend the final process (which involves physical death) in order to teach Humans about the Truth.

 

 

yes .....and how many ordinary mortals can just do that ?

 

 

I'm the Serpeant that Guarded the Buddha in His meditation.

 

avoidance ?!!

[Sephiroth]

Sambya :

 

 

so you cannot prove me wrong

 

Proving you to be wrong could not make you into a good person NOR will it make me into a wiser person. I could be wasting my time trying to educate someone who believes that alcohol is good for him.

 

 

i dont know what bodhivatta is . i was reffereing to bodhittva which is a word used in some indian languages meaning the stage or level of buddhahood .

 

You speak of words which you do not understand, and expect others to call you wise. Foolish indeed.

 

 

show me where ......!! one isolated case would not do ....

 

The very fact that one isolated case (as you call it) remains shows that you are using Wikipedia even so its contents are doubtful. That is proof enough.

 

 

i said " a period not extending 22 days " .

he might die that very moment !!

 

I did not ask you how long he lives, I asked you WHY he should live 22 days?

 

 

yes .....and how many ordinary mortals can just do that ?

The Buddhas are ANYTHING BUT ordinary.

 

 

avoidance ?!!

Up to you on what you should believe.

[sambya]

 

Sambya :

Proving you to be wrong could not make you into a good person NOR will it make me into a wiser person. I could be wasting my time trying to educate someone who believes that alcohol is good for him.

 

i dont belive alcohol is good for me ...........i dont take any such drinks .which i already told in the begining !!

 

 

 

 

You speak of words which you do not understand, and expect others to call you wise. Foolish indeed.

 

 

 

i spoke of bodhittva and i understand the word very well . i dont know what is bodhivatta . it is you who is confusing between the two and refusing to acknowledge the confusion !!

 

 

The very fact that one isolated case (as you call it) remains shows that you are using Wikipedia even so its contents are doubtful. That is proof enough.

ha ha ha ........ i never used any wikipedia source (to all my remembrance i didnt ) .however i said "isolated case" because i couldnt be 100 % sure ....

 

anyways you said that "you usually quote wikipedia" . and next you say that one example((show me if you can) is enough . now one example is not 'usual' .......................it is 'exceptional'..................isnt it ?!!

 

 

 

 

Up to you on what you should believe.

 

comm'on now......................trying to escape the questions only make discussions lengthy !!

[Sephiroth]

sambya :

 

 

i dont belive alcohol is good for me ...........i dont take any such drinks .which i already told in the begining !!

 

He who speaks in behalf of a drunkard are equally at fault as the drunkard themselves. Even those who wish to give up drinking will be spoilt by people like you who defend their drinking attitudes.

 

 

i spoke of bodhittva and i understand the word very well . i dont know what is bodhivatta . it is you who is confusing between the two and refusing to acknowledge the confusion !!

 

Whahahahahaha

 

You're a person who have no idea whatsoever on what comes out of your mouth. Just like a sawhai person I know of in another forum.

 

You said you spoke of Bodhivatta and understood the word but you do not know what it is. Then what is the use of knowing the word but not the meaning? Isn't that stupid? Yet, you have guts to come to me and say I'm confused.

 

 

ha ha ha ........ i never used any wikipedia source (to all my remembrance i didnt ) .however i said "isolated case" because i couldnt be 100 % sure ....

 

You cannot say NEVER and then use words like "couldn't be sure" together, can you? It shows that you do not know what comes out of your mouth and have poor control of your Mind.

[sambya]

 

sambya :

He who speaks in behalf of a drunkard are equally at fault as the drunkard themselves. Even those who wish to give up drinking will be spoilt by people like you who defend their drinking attitudes.

 

what might be my motive behind defending a drunkard ......i certainly did not defend anyone !!

 

acknowledging that alcohol was widely used in vedic times and encouranging to drink is not the same .

 

anyways you have still not shown me evidence to the contrary .....im waiting.

 

 

 

You said you spoke of Bodhivatta and understood the word but you do not know what it is. Then what is the use of knowing the word but not the meaning? Isn't that stupid? Yet, you have guts to come to me and say I'm confused.

once again.....i spoke of bodhittva , not bodhivatta ..............get it corrected !!

 

 

 

 

You cannot say NEVER and then use words like "couldn't be sure" together, can you? It shows that you do not know what comes out of your mouth and have poor control of your Mind.

 

now prove it if you can !! find me a text(only one wouldnt do) where i quoted wiki .....do it and then shout as much as you can ..