Becoming indifferent to the vedas

[theist]

TRANSLATION Bg 2.52

When your intelligence has passed out of the dense forest of delusion, you shall become indifferent to all that has been heard and all that is to be heard.

 

PURPORT

There are many good examples in the lives of the great devotees of the Lord of those who became indifferent to the rituals of the Vedas simply by devotional service to the Lord. When a person factually understands Kṛṣṇa and his relationship with Kṛṣṇa, he naturally becomes completely indifferent to the rituals of fruitive activities, even though an experienced brāhmaṇa. Śrī Mādhavendra Purī, a great devotee and ācārya in the line of the devotees, says:

sandhyā-vandana bhadram astu bhavato bhoḥ snāna tubhyaṁ namo

bho devāḥ pitaraś ca tarpaṇa-vidhau nāhaṁ kṣamaḥ kṣamyatām

yatra kvāpi niṣadya yādava-kulottamasya kaṁsa-dviṣaḥ

smāraṁ smāram aghaṁ harāmi tad alaṁ manye kim anyena me.

"O Lord, in my prayers three times a day, all glory to You. Bathing, I offer my obeisances unto You. O demigods! O forefathers! Please excuse me for my inability to offer you my respects. Now wherever I sit, I can remember the great descendant of the Yadu dynasty [Kṛṣṇa], the enemy of Kaṁsa, and thereby I can free myself from all sinful bondage. I think this is sufficient for me."

The Vedic rites and rituals are imperative for neophytes: comprehending all kinds of prayer three times a day, taking a bath early in the morning, offering respects to the forefathers, etc. But, when one is fully in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and is engaged in His transcendental loving service, one becomes indifferent to all these regulative principles because he has already attained perfection. If one can reach the platform of understanding by service to the Supreme Lord Kṛṣṇa, he has no longer to execute different types of penances and sacrifices as recommended in revealed scriptures. And, similarly, if one has not understood that the purpose of the Vedas is to reach Kṛṣṇa and simply engages in the rituals, etc., then he is uselessly wasting time in such engagements. Persons in Kṛṣṇa consciousness transcend the limit of śabda-brahma, or the range of the Vedas and Upaniṣads.

[melvin]

A pure devotee of Krsna, Theist, doesn`t care for any public opinion about himself. Because his only business, by Srila Narada`s example, is teaching others how to finally go home Back to Godhead. In the Narada Pancaratra it is stated: That all Vedic rituals, mantras and conclusions are compressed into just 8 words, Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare. Having reached this level of knowledge, a pure devotee like Narada Muni if you happen to see him chanting Hare Krsna, is a person who`s impervious to all sorts of things that surrounds him.

[theist]

 

A pure devotee of Krsna, Theist, doesn`t care for any public opinion about himself. Because his only business, by Srila Narada`s example, is teaching others how to finally go home Back to Godhead. To quote and paraphrase Narada`s statement: That all Vedic rituals, mantras and conclusions are compressed into just 8 words, Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare.

 

Very nice. Where can I find that statement by Narada Melvin. It is a nice citation.

[melvin]

 

Very nice. Where can I find that statement by Narada Melvin. It is a nice citation.

 

It can be found, Theist, in the book, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 18 Conversations with Prakasananda page 203. ( 1974, 1981 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust) Philippine Copyright 1981.

[AncientMariner]

Nice quote theist. That reminds me of Jada Bharata whose father wanted to train him to become perfect brahmana and an expert in the Vedas but he was only interested in chanting Hare Krishna and thinking of Krishna so he acted like a deaf, dumb, madman so his father would stop trying to train him to become perfect brahmana and expert in the Vedas.

[theist]

 

Nice quote theist. That reminds me of Jada Bharata whose father wanted to train him to become perfect brahmana and an expert in the Vedas but he was only interested in chanting Hare Krishna and thinking of Krishna so he acted like a deaf, dumb, madman so his father would stop trying to train him to become perfect brahmana and expert in the Vedas.

 

Great example AM. I know you are attracted to avadhutas. Me too.

 

And how about the brahmanas who were too busy with their animal sacrificing duties to give foodstuff to Krishna and the cowhed boys who became hungry while playing in the Vrndavana forest and approached them.

 

The wives of the brahmanas became spontaneously attracted to Krishna and His friends and gladly fed them.

[theist]

.

 

[raghu]

The title of this posting is "Becoming indifferent to the vedas."

 

Yet, the Gita verse quoted above says nothing about becoming "indifferent to the vedas."

 

If someone feels I am in error, may they please point out where in the Sanskrit anything about being "indifferent to the Vedas" is mentioned.

[raghu]

 

Nice quote theist. That reminds me of Jada Bharata whose father wanted to train him to become perfect brahmana and an expert in the Vedas but he was only interested in chanting Hare Krishna and thinking of Krishna so he acted like a deaf, dumb, madman so his father would stop trying to train him to become perfect brahmana and expert in the Vedas.

 

I know I am going to get in trouble for asking this but....

 

where in the Bhagavata is it stated that Jada Bharata was "only interested in chanting Hare Krishna?"

[gHari]

Sitting on the shore of a tropical isle with blue ocean and white sand, one no longer finds inspiration staring at a picture of the white sands and blue water of a tropical island.

[theist]

 

Sitting on the shore of a tropical isle with blue ocean and white sand, one no longer finds inspiration staring at a picture of the white sands and blue water of a tropical island.

 

Nicely put!

[Kali_Upasaka]

Theist. I have a doubt. How do one know when he has reached the level where rituals are no longer necessary?

 

I was told that some rituals are still necessary to continue at the level that you have reached and to ensure that you do not come down. I have also seen this being practiced by Goswamis who have reached a very high level.

[theist]

 

A pure devotee of Krsna, Theist, doesn`t care for any public opinion about himself. Because his only business, by Srila Narada`s example, is teaching others how to finally go home Back to Godhead. In the Narada Pancaratra it is stated: That all Vedic rituals, mantras and conclusions are compressed into just 8 words, Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare. Having reached this level of knowledge, a pure devotee like Narada Muni if you happen to see him chanting Hare Krsna, is a person who`s impervious to all sorts of things that surrounds him.

 

Whoa bro!!!! I didn't see this sentence first time through. This is way way off track melvin. I know you are generous by nature but let's not get crazy.

 

:eek3::eek3::eek3::eek3::eek3:

[theist]

 

Theist. I have a doubt. How do one know when he has reached the level where rituals are no longer necessary?

 

I was told that some rituals are still necessary to continue at the level that you have reached and to ensure that you do not come down. I have also seen this being practiced by Goswamis who have reached a very high level.

 

What rituals are needed? There are the standard practices of sadhana bhakti-yoga but that is not what is being talked about in the above verse and purport.

 

Making attempts to go to heaven or to gain wealth, education, children ect. is never necessary. But such practices that aim at these goals by respecting the higher authorites is better than not respecting the higher authorities. They are regulating and purifying. But one can come to understand they are not needed at anytime for the soul and he can substitute bhakti-sadhana at any point as there are no purifying process needed for the chanting of the Lord's names.

 

Even sadhana bhakti rituals become unnecessary as one develops spontaneous loving service. The question of how does one know is not really applicable because it is not an intellectual choice. You practice till you actually fall in love with Krishna and then the love takes over.

 

Sahaji's are those that assume prematurely they are on this level. We should always try to stick to the standard practices and see the higher levels of devotion as a goal that lies ahead.

 

Some devotees as acartyas keep up the practices even when they have no more need to practice just to teach others by example.

 

As for myself I have never been determined enough to keep up the most basic levels of practice so I know I am below the level of vaidhi bhakti.

 

Here is a perfect answer to that question.

 

 

Sitting on the shore of a tropical isle with blue ocean and white sand, one no longer finds inspiration staring at a picture of the white sands and blue water of a tropical island.

[raghu]

 

Sitting on the shore of a tropical isle with blue ocean and white sand, one no longer finds inspiration staring at a picture of the white sands and blue water of a tropical island.

 

That is an interesting analogy which illustrates the point that you are trying to make. I have no difficulty understanding the point you are trying to make, so I did not require an analogy to understand it.

 

All I have stated is that the point you are trying to make does NOT follow from the Gita verse quoted. The Gita does NOT talk about becoming "indifferent to the Vedas." Why would it, since its own authority is based on the Vedas? That does not even make sense.

 

Also, someone made a brazen claim to the effect that Jada Bharata wanted to chant Hare Krishna instead of study the Vedas. While I recall the latter being mentioned in the Bhagavatam, I checked and found *no evidence* that could even remotely be interpreted to mean that Jada Bharata wanted to chant "Hare Krishna." For those of you who make this claim, I realize that you have not actually read the Bhagavatam. The story is in 5.9.1-20 which you may wish to consult in order to correct your misconceptions.

 

I am sure we can all agree that we must represent the scriptures honestly. Surely that is not a lot to ask for.

[smaranam]

 

I checked and found *no evidence* that could even remotely be interpreted to mean that Jada Bharata wanted to chant "Hare Krishna."

 

 

 

You are right , it says : sravana - hearing, smarana - remembereing, guna-vivarana - which sounds like description of the qualities of the Lord. , but it does not specify the Mahamantra.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 5.9.3

tatrāpi svajana-sańgāc ca bhṛśam udvijamāno bhagavataḥ karma-bandha-vidhvaḿsana-śravaṇa-smaraṇa-guṇa-vivaraṇa-caraṇāravinda-yugalaḿ manasā vidadhad ātmanaḥ pratighātam āśańkamāno bhagavad-anugraheṇānusmṛta-sva-pūrva-janmāvalir ātmānam unmatta-jaḍāndha-badhira-svarūpeṇa darśayām āsa lokasya

SYNONYMS

tatra api — in that brāhmaṇa birth also; sva-jana-sańgāt — from association with relatives and friends; ca — and; bhṛśam — greatly; udvijamānaḥ — being always afraid that he would fall down again; bhagavataḥ — of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; karma-bandha — the bondage of the reactions of fruitive activities; vidhvaḿsana — which vanquishes; śravaṇa — hearing; smaraṇa — remembering; guṇa-vivaraṇa — hearing descriptions of the qualities of the Lord; caraṇa-aravinda — lotus feet; yugalam — the two; manasā — with the mind; vidadhat — always thinking of; ātmanaḥ — of his soul; pratighātam — obstruction on the path of devotional service; āśańkamānaḥ — always fearing; bhagavat-anugraheṇa — by the special mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; anusmṛta — remembered; sva-pūrva — his own previous; janma-āvaliḥ — string of births; ātmānam — himself; unmatta — mad; jaḍa — dull; andha — blind; badhira — and deaf; svarūpeṇa — with these features; darśayām āsa — he exhibited; lokasya — to people in general.

 

TRANSLATION

Due to his being especially gifted with the Lord's mercy, Bharata Mahārāja could remember the incidents of his past life. Although he received the body of a brāhmaṇa, he was still very much afraid of his relatives and friends who were not devotees. He was always very cautious of such association because he feared that he would again fall down. Consequently he manifested himself before the public eye as a madman — dull, blind and deaf — so that others would not try to talk to him. In this way he saved himself from bad association. Within he was always thinking of the lotus feet of the Lord and chanting the Lord's glories, which save one from the bondage of fruitive action. In this way he saved himself from the onslaught of nondevotee associates.

[bhaktajan]

Chanting "Hare Krishna Mahamantra" and/or "always thinking of the lotus feet of the Lord and chanting the Lord's glories" ---seems to be the 'same-difference' to me.

 

But I am just a dumb jackass . . . not smart enough nor good enough to chant the Vedas.

[raghu]

 

Chanting "Hare Krishna Mahamantra" and/or "always thinking of the lotus feet of the Lord and chanting the Lord's glories" ---seems to be the 'same-difference' to me.

 

But I am just a dumb jackass . . . not smart enough nor good enough to chant the Vedas.

 

I can't comment on your intelligence. What I can say is that you are obfuscating the issue.

 

If you wanted to claim that Jada Bharata was "thinking of the lotus feet of the Lord," then that would be fine, as it is consistent with the text. But when you claim that Jada Bharata was "chanting Hare Krishna," then that is a specific claim, and specific evidence must be there to substantiate such a claim. Otherwise it is dishonest.

 

Chanting Hare Krishna may be nondifferent from thinking of the Lord's glories. But the bottom line is that the text does NOT say that he was chanting Hare Krishna. There are other ways to think about the Lord's glories, beyond chanting Hare Krishna. If one wanted to know how *specifically* Jada Bharata was thinking of the Lord's glories, one should consult the text to see. If the specific means by which he was thinking of the Lord is not spelled out, then it is dishonest to claim that he was doing it by one specific method.

 

There needs to be a semblance of intellectual honesty when approaching the scripture. Of course, the whole point of this is honesty and properly representing the scriptures. But the HK's will probably try to claim I am somehow against their mantra. It has nothing to do with what mantra you chant. It has everything to do with being honest when you make claims about what is found in scripture.

 

I don't think that honesty is a lot to ask for.

[bhaktajan]

After I finish writting this I will read the rest of your post.

 

First, I will comment on your Non-Statement:

"I can't comment on your intelligence."

 

Too Bad.

 

Also, Don't worry about getting excited about your posting.

 

Just learn from REAL WELLWISHING YOGIS.

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

The Hare Krishna Mantra is called the MAHA-MANTRA for a good reason.

 

Talk about "Becoming indifferent to the vedas"

 

You have become indifferent to "MahaMantras" according to your calculations?

[raghu]

 

 

Just learn from REAL WELLWISHING YOGIS.

 

The real yogis are the ones who speak in accord with scripture.

 

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

The Hare Krishna Mantra is called the MAHA-MANTRA for a good reason.

 

Talk about "Becoming indifferent to the vedas"

 

You have become indifferent to "MahaMantras" according to your calculations?

 

Now you see, this is the sort of dishonest, strawman argument I have come to expect from Hare Krishnas. When you are caught making false claims, the honest thing to do would be to recant them. Falsifying scripture and then attacking me for pointing it out only makes you and your religion look bad. Are your religious beliefs so tenuous, sir, that you can only defend them by indulging in mud-slinging? Apparently so.

[bhaktajan]

Chanting Hare Krishna may be nondifferent from thinking of the Lord's glories. But the bottom line is that the text does NOT say that he was chanting Hare Krishna.

....................................................................

Yes. You are correct & I agree with you.

 

Maybe we are afflicted with a case intellectual obesity.

[theist]

Jada Bharata was playing deaf and dumb so no he was leading kirtana or anything. The point of AM's comment was to indicate that he did not want to become entangled in material or religious life and instead wanted only to remember the Lord.

 

This is why he had no interest in the sacred thread ceremony.

 

Some fanatics will always point out some tiny dark spot on the radiant full Moon but the wise will simply treat them like an annoying mosquito buzzing in their ear while trying to listen to some Krishna Katha.

[raghu]

 

Some fanatics will always point out some tiny dark spot on the radiant full Moon but the wise will simply treat them like an annoying mosquito buzzing in their ear while trying to listen to some Krishna Katha.

 

It is unfortunate that some individuals are so infected with the "wannabe guru" sickness that they cannot even acknowledge simple mistakes for fear that it will tarnish public perception of their knowledge base. When all else fails, just bring up the warm soft blanket of Krishna Katha. When you speak of Krishna Katha (even though you have no real attraction to it), the foolish will certainly believe that the other guy must be against it in some way. Never mind that he was simply pointing out the errors in your discussion of scripture. But, it's ok! You like Krishna Katha, so this means you can say anything about scripture that you want, and right or wrong, it must be accepted as truth.

 

Everyone has to base their views on scriptures, without which their views should not be accepted as true. The only exception are the Hare Krishnas, who are free to say whatever they want.

[chandu_69]

The likes of theist can never abandon their fanatic backgrounds.

 

Krishna says in Gita to surrender to him while performing one's duty.Krishna didn't specify nor restrict the ways one can adopt to surrender to him.

 

Krishna didn't say chanting his name is the only correct way to surrender to him.

 

A learned priest(Brahmin) surrenders to Krishna by performing his duty i.e. chanting mantras.

 

Mechanical chanting of mantras without surrender is fruitless.That is the moral of story for the likes of Jada bharata's brothers.Jada Bharata was playing dumb to disassociate himself from his brothers.

 

The story also is an eye opener to Harekrishnas like theist who spends most of their time splitting hair ends and forget surrender to krishna.Mere chanting of Vedic Mantras or Harekrishna Mantra doesn't mean one is surrendering to Lord.

[theist]

TRANSLATION BG 4.25

Some yogīs perfectly worship the demigods by offering different sacrifices to them, and some of them offer sacrffices in the fire of the Supreme Brahman.

 

PURPORT

As described above, a person engaged in discharging duties in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is also called a perfect yogī or a first-class mystic. But there are others also, who perform similar sacrifices in the worship of demigods, and still others who sacrifice to the Supreme Brahman, or the impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord. So there are different kinds of sacrifices in terms of different categories. Such different categories of sacrifice by different types of performers only superficially demark varieties of sacrifice. Factual sacrifice means to satisfy the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu, who is also known as Yajña. All the different varieties of sacrifice can be placed within two primary divisions: namely, sacrifice of worldly possessions and sacrifice in pursuit of transcendental knowledge. Those who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness sacrifice all material possessions for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord, while others, who want some temporary material happiness, sacrifice their material possessions to satisfy demigods such as Indra, the sun-god, etc. And others, who are impersonalists, sacrifice their identity by merging into the existence of impersonal Brahman. The demigods are powerful living entities appointed by the Supreme Lord for the maintenance and supervision of all material functions like the heating, watering and lighting of the universe. Those who are interested in material benefits worship the demigods by various sacrifices according to the Vedic rituals. They are called bahv-īśvara-vādī, or believers in many gods. But others, who worship the impersonal feature of the Absolute Truth and regard the forms of the demigods as temporary, sacrifice their individual selves in the supreme fire and thus end their individual existences by merging into the existence of the Supreme. Such impersonalists spend their time in philosophical speculation to understand the transcendental nature of the Supreme. In other words, the fruitive workers sacrifice their material possessions for material enjoyment, whereas the impersonalist sacrifices his material designations with a view to merging into the existence of the Supreme. For the impersonalist, the fire altar of sacrifice is the Supreme Brahman, and the offering is the self being consumed by the fire of Brahman. The Kṛṣṇa conscious person, like Arjuna, however, sacrifices everything for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, and thus all his material possessions as well as his own self-everything-is sacrificed for Kṛṣṇa. Thus, he is the first-class yogī; but he does not lose his individual existence.