Which is more important?

[smaranam]

 

Very nice post.

 

Then it must have been Nandakishore, Krshna. I was just trying to be His pen -

a writing instrument

 

Haribol

[theist]

 

Now, decades later, these things can be addressed slowly with more cow protection especially for temples - not that temples should turn vegan. no !

 

What the vegan devotees are saying is that if we do nothing and simply accept commercial milk, we are not moving forward towards the goal that the Guru set.

 

 

Exactly! This point of cow protection being the essential point has been stated many times but for some reason rarely acknowledged.

 

I personally cannot digest milk products so would be vegan in any case but no one I know expects this for the temples.

[kaisersose]

 

If there a murder-free, meat-free,compassionate, healthy and spiritual life possible without having to KILL any animals, why is there a need for all these cold blooded slaughtering?

 

And if there was a perfect world, where people never picked up disease, never died in accidents or were never murdered, never suffered any pain in life, then wouldn’t thing be much better? There is a difference between fantasy and reality. Your creator God along with the singing birds and flowing brooks, also created the concept of disease and carnivores – deal with it. It is nature’s order that one form of life lives off another. It does not make make any sense to say that thousands of species can follow nature and only man should not.

 

 

Human beings dont NEED to kill animals in order to remain "healthy" or to "progress". A highly civilized society is not the one that develops in terms of material gains, by slaughtering animals, and churning out everything mother Earth has to offer to us. Society can only progress when we as humans learn to live in harmony not only within ourselves but with our relation to our mother Earth.

 

Unsubstantiated opinions do not mean anything. One can say the exact reverse of what you have said. Like I said, since the beginning of life on the planet, one form of life has lived off another. After all this time, picking up the diet of the Indian sub-continent and attempting to impose it on the entire world for sentimental reasons, is nothing short of silly. Historically, among all the countires in the world, the vegetarian diet is only found in some sections of the Indian population and the average life expectancy of India is far from impressive. The meat eating, beer guzzling German has a life expectancy of 81 year, while the desi who eats curds rice has an average life expectancy of 67 or lesser. Does not make a very strong case to take the Indian diet global, don’t you think?

 

 

We need to protect our animals our cows

before its late. It is an emergency. A PANDEMIC , we ALL must do something about it NOW.

We dont need to kill our cows or any other animals in order to progress, this wisdom was long inculcated in the minds of those who were spiritually advanced.

 

All this brutal killing of animals, depletion of nature's resources will not lead to any advancement even materially what to speak of spiritually.

 

Again, all these are unsubstantiated opinions. One say the exact opposite of it – if we are simply going to pass off opinions as facts. These cattle exist in this planet today, because ranches brought them into this world for food. Or else they would not exist at all.

 

The medications you use are the result of mass lab rat murder. You will not refuse medications because it was experimented on rats. The veggie food you harvest kills bugs, slugs, etc. But you will not starve to save their lives.

 

This cry for global vegetarianism is really nothing more than a holier-than thou attitude that creates this desire to convert others to one’s own way of thinking. We are silent on whatever impacts us – but we raise a hue and cry every time else, until the other party will agree with our way of thinking.

 

What about the possibility that Krishna is sending these souls down as cows so they can quickly evolve spiritually, instead of wasting time living as some other forms of life?

 

Cheers

[raghu]

 

Respected members and readers,

 

With due respect to all sentiments, thoughts and reasonings from all sides ....

 

Srila Prabhupad traveled to the US on ship surviving nausea , sea-sickness and heart attack. On order of his Guru he spread the Vedic knowledge of the Supreme, Krshna, in the western world. He knew he had very little time left in this body to do this herculean task. He was about 70. "Krshna, where have You brought me ? I am a puppet in your hands. Please make me dance make me dance make me dance".

 

He had to

- give core knowledge to young Americans,

- get his books published

- establish dieties, temples, and regular temple programs,

- establish a book distribution channel to be kept running

- give starting impetus for Cow Protection farms , first convey its importance ...

 

in such a short time. His disciples in the west and India did very well, overall, coming up to speed on all this.

 

If his goal was that temples get milk supply from these farms, waiting for the farms to start first would be like putting the cart before the horse.

He would get caught up in a perpetual chicken-and-egg problem , and ISKCON may not have been all that it is today.

 

He had to forgo some temporary creases like commercial milk, refined bone-processed sugar, to get the big chariot running.

 

We can say it was his mercy that he left these creases , just like Canto 11 and 12 of the Bhagvat, to his descendants.

Once a disciple said "But Bhaktivinod Thakur did not finish his book."

To which SP said "We are descendants of Bhaktivinod Thakur. It is his mercy that he left some work for us. Do you think he could not have finished it ? He is Vaishnav. All-powerful."

 

 

Now, decades later, these things can be addressed slowly with more cow protection especially for temples - not that temples should turn vegan. no !

 

What the vegan devotees are saying is that if we do nothing and simply accept commercial milk, we are not moving forward towards the goal that the Guru set.

 

Please forgive and correct any misconceptions i may have had about this.

 

Radhe Radhe

Hare Krshna

Jai Sri Krshna

 

Smaranam,

 

I'm sorry, but the above logic seems basically intended to justify Prabhupada's milk use, which in turn raises the question about standards and morality. It is illogical to compare milk drinkers with murders, just as it would be illogical if Prabhupada to allowed his disciples to eat meat just to grow his movement, and then preached vegetarianism.

 

Theist has a lot to answer for, since as usually he proposes totally absurd ideas which ultimately bite him in the back. His own guru (shiksha, not diksha, since he was never initiated) supports cow torture, according to Theist.

 

Neither you nor anyone else should have to shoulder the burden of rationalizing Theist's bizarre ideas.

[raghu]

 

 

And if there was a perfect world, where people never picked up disease, never died in accidents or were never murdered, never suffered any pain in life, then wouldn’t thing be much better? There is a difference between fantasy and reality. Your creator God along with the singing birds and flowing brooks, also created the concept of disease and carnivores – deal with it. It is nature’s order that one form of life lives off another. It does not make make any sense to say that thousands of species can follow nature and only man should not.

 

Is it man's nature to be a carnivore? Now that is truly an unsubstantiated allegation. It is not a biologically sound position to take.

[OmHari]

 

The meat eating, beer guzzling German has a life expectancy of 81 year, while the desi who eats curds rice has an average life expectancy of 67 or lesser. Does not make a very strong case to take the Indian diet global, don’t you think?

Factory farming is happening only since recent times, so you never know what diseases are in store for meat eaters in addition to those that already are number one killers like Cardiac diseases, Obesity, Cancer, etc. You are quoting the life expectency in terms of people who were born atleast few decades ago. In Earlier times people everywhere were eating more veggies. Where do you get these data as if Germans lived soley on MEAT and NO Veggies, to justify cold blooded slaughtering that eventually lead only to diseases?

[kaisersose]

 

Where do you get these data as if Germans lived soley on MEAT and NO Veggies, to justify cold blooded slaughtering that eventually lead only to diseases?

 

Dude - get real. Where did I say that man is a carnivore or that Germans ate nothing but meat? It would be nice of you can stick to what I wrote, without adding your own spin on it. Regardless of what one eats, old age will bring disease. The individual who eats lean meat is likely to be healthier than someone who eats fatty vegetarian food.

 

This is not clear either. If the HK claim that they cannot wait to get back to godhead is real, then why this passion for living long lives? You are denying yourselves most of the fun available on this planet anyway - as part of your religious rules.

 

Not that it matters, but I am a vegetarian, in case you are thinking I am out to convert people to my point of view. My point is, shed your holier-than-thou attitude. Your arrogance in believing you know better than the other guy only impacts yourself.

 

Cheers

[OmHari]

The whole thing about life expectancy was brought up by you, not me. You're the one who is tuning opinions around by saying things like

The meat eating, beer guzzling German has a life expectancy of 81 year while the desi who eats curds rice has an average life expectancy of 67 or lesser.

Vegetarians eat just more than curd rice, obviously meat eater wont live long or healthy if it wasnt for all the green that is taken along with .

What about them living for YEARS with DISEASES near the later age due to all the meat they consume?

 

 

You are denying yourselves most of the fun available on this planet anyway - as part of your religious rules.

 

If you consider dwelling into intoxicating activities as "fun" that is your perception. For some , simple activities in life like sitting in garden and just doing nothing except meditating on Sweetness of Lord, would be more "fun" than to drink drive and hit someone and injure or create "unwanted" babies.

 

 

This is not clear either. If the HK claim that they cannot wait to get back to godhead is real, then why this passion for living long lives?

 

As far as I know Bhakts only concern is how to please the sweet Lord, nothing else, as they aspire only for "Prema Bhakti" devotion NOT even "mukti" liberation.

[sambya]

 

 

As far as I know Bhakts only concern is how to please the sweet Lord, nothing else, as they aspire only for "Prema Bhakti" devotion NOT even "mukti" liberation.

 

 

as i am a bhakti practitioner i would like to believe that prema bhakti is infinitely higher and more selfless than craving for moksha .

 

however there remains one little problem !

 

when you give krishna naam to 'fallen souls' in order to liberate them from material world you are attempting a liberation(moksha) . without that there is no meaning as to why a human should practise bhakti . you might say bhakti is to love god selflessly ... correct ........ but why should anyone love god ? answer -- to get liberated from sorrrows or material world or materials attachments etc etc . if it is not so there is no point in preaching the glories of lord to people or to try to make them spiritual . moksha always remains the end !! think about it .......

[Amlesh]

 

as i am a bhakti practitioner i would like to believe that prema bhakti is infinitely higher and more selfless than craving for moksha .

 

however there remains one little problem !

 

when you give krishna naam to 'fallen souls' in order to liberate them from material world you are attempting a liberation(moksha) . without that there is no meaning as to why a human should practise bhakti . you might say bhakti is to love god selflessly ... correct ........ but why should anyone love god ? answer -- to get liberated from sorrrows or material world or materials attachments etc etc . if it is not so there is no point in preaching the glories of lord to people or to try to make them spiritual . moksha always remains the end !! think about it .......

 

The Secrets of Bhakti gets decrypted only when one has already conquered everything... The Chosen One broadens his thinking from his own inside fighting like conquering senses etc...

By merely saying Love for Krishna... things does not end there... since Krishna means everthing... One Loves Everyone... which can only happen when One has conquered everything... and Bhakti Starts from there...

 

WORKING SELFLESSLY FOR LOKASAMSAMGRAHA.

[Smiley]

I for one am not trying to have it both ways. You are simply appealing to your authority (Swami Prabhupada) instead of trying to evaluate the issue objectively. The arguments of Theist are cogent and strong. Apparently Prabhupada is not his authority - neither is he mine.

 

However I must ask this - is their really something wrong with taking the milk from protected cows only? The argument is not against the idea of milk but against taking it from unprotected cows. Milk from unprotected cows is a product of violence. Also it is the demand for such milk that creates male calves for veal. Instead of countering any of these arguments, people are just making appeals to authority and trying to act like Swami Prabhupada would actually be displeased if they took milk only from protected cows!

 

I have heard people engage in similar fallacious reasoning vis a vis vegetarianism because Jesus ("a pure devotee") ate fish (apparently he also ate lamb). How can anyone who supports the US dairy industry preach Dharma to Atheist vegans who don't make any of these rationalizations but prefer to restrict their senses because of their compassion for all living creatures?

 

 

 

I asked a very simple question, and the answer is also very simple. Let me therefore ask it a different way.

 

Since Sri Prabhupada's approach to things is generally taken by Hare Krishnas to be valid, and since Theist argues that people who drink milk are enabling the torture and slaughter of cows, and since Sri Prabhupada did consume milk in the United States and allowed its use in his temples....

 

Are all milk drinkers including Sri Prabhupada guilty of enabling cow torture, or are none of them guilty by the very fact of consuming milk?

 

You can't have it both ways, i.e. milk drinking is wrong for most people but not for Prabhupada. That is hypocrisy.

[sambya]

 

The Secrets of Bhakti gets decrypted only when one has already conquered everything... The Chosen One broadens his thinking from his own inside fighting like conquering senses etc...

By merely saying Love for Krishna... things does not end there... since Krishna means everthing... One Loves Everyone... which can only happen when One has conquered everything... and Bhakti Starts from there...

 

WORKING SELFLESSLY FOR LOKASAMSAMGRAHA.

 

nice

[sambya]

 

The arguments of Theist are cogent and strong. Apparently Prabhupada is not his authority - neither is he mine.

 

 

 

thats a new phenomenon i have been noticing lately . the moment any hare krishna deals with some tricky questions they start by denying prabhupada . many prominent gaudiya vaishnava practitioners here have said that one time or the other !!

[bhaktajan]

Leave a piece of Stinky Cheese (ie: provalone, limberger) in a choice spot ---at a meaty place.

 

Or leave some broccoli, coliflower, garlic cloves & onion mash.

[theist]

 

I for one am not trying to have it both ways. You are simply appealing to your authority (Swami Prabhupada) instead of trying to evaluate the issue objectively. The arguments of Theist are cogent and strong. Apparently Prabhupada is not his authority - neither is he mine.

 

 

Nor am I trying to have it both ways. In all my posts over the last decade you will not find one where I claim to be a disciple of any guru including Srila Prabhupada. Not that Srila Prabhupada is not Jagad guru, i fully accept that he is, but to be a disciple of someone means to be fully under the discipline that he prescribes. So I don't qualify as a disciple.

 

I have chosen to try and learn about Krishna from the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. I have disagreements with him on some other points, like accepting the cosmology of the SB. the literal historical reading of many of the happening recorded in the Puranas and Mahabharata and the need for cows milk.

 

I do accept Srila Prabhupada's position as a 100% pure devotee of Lord krishna and therefore any action committed by him in the service of Lord Krishna is faultless although from the material point of view there may be some visible fault.

 

A most rare position. Everyone is that I see I consider to be still karmically bound to greater and lesser degree

 

On another point I don't believe in blindly accepting what any guru says. Srila Prabhupada writes in a Gita purport that "blind following is condemned". I take those words seriously.

 

These points are not a secret. I have stated them many times before when needed.

 

The way I see it learning how to be Krishna conscious in the material world may entail making different choices on some things than the predecessors have done. An example would be on one hand Lord Caitanya clearly said there are no hard and fast rules for chanting the names of God. yet Srila Prabhupada was very specific on how he wanted kiratans to be conducted in his temples with certain songs and tunes. That was for his Iskcon.

 

This doesn't mean others who sing with different instruments and tunes outside of Iskcon are somehow "unbonedfide" or wrong.

 

Anyway this is another subject.

 

On this cow protection thing it is up to each individual to reconcile within themselves the fact that when they offer commercial milk to Krishna they are supporting the cow slaughter industry and therefore DIRECTLY going against the instruction to protect cows.

 

Do we really think Krishna is going to die without our offering of milk from unprotected cows? This is silliness.

 

"But the tortured and murdered cows get some sukriti fromthe offering so we are really being compassionate upon them". This is one of the lamest arguements going. It isan attempt at using the mercy killing argument.

 

here is an idea for a substitute. Make some almond milk to offer to Krishna. No tree is hurt in the process and the soul of the almond trees will get sukriti and the devotees won't be seen to be engaged in hypocrisy on the cow protection issue.

 

After the soul in the cow body and the soul in the almond tree are to be seen on an equal level so why not help them?

[sambya]

 

Nor am I trying to have it both ways. In all my posts over the last decade you will not find one where I claim to be a disciple of any guru including Srila Prabhupada. Not that Srila Prabhupada is not Jagad guru, i fully accept that he is, but to be a disciple of someone means to be fully under the discipline that he prescribes. So I don't qualify as a disciple.

 

I have chosen to try and learn about Krishna from the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

well, perhaps you have heard of ekalavya who built the mud idol of his chosen guru dronachaarya and learnt all knowledge of weaponry by own endeavour . and he was no less than dronacharya's gretest disciple arjuna !

 

this , he achieved without even having recieved a single instruction from his manas-guru dronachaarya .

 

it is clearly not relevant whether you have met prabupada personally or have taken inititation within the order started by him . if his teachings appeal to your mind above the rest and you follow it , you are his disciple . manas guru- mental guru ! stop denying yourself !

 

and if you deny him as your guru then stop promoting any of this philosophy . there's no other way round !

[theist]

 

well, perhaps you have heard of ekalavya who built the mud idol of his chosen guru dronachaarya and learnt all knowledge of weaponry by own endeavour . and he was no less than dronacharya's gretest disciple arjuna !

 

this , he achieved without even having recieved a single instruction from his manas-guru dronachaarya .

 

it is clearly not relevant whether you have met prabupada personally or have taken inititation within the order started by him . if his teachings appeal to your mind above the rest and you follow it , you are his disciple . manas guru- mental guru ! stop denying yourself !

 

and if you deny him as your guru then stop promoting any of this philosophy . there's no other way round !

 

Yes I have heard of ekalavya.

 

We have different understanding of the word disciple. One of the basic requirements to be a disciple of Srila Prabhupada is to chant at least 16 rounds of the Hare Krishna mantra daily. No way do I even come close to this.

 

I am not trying to put myself down or to sound humble I am simply trying for an honest self evaluation.

 

And where do you get off telling me I should stop promoting his philosophy?

 

Anyway back to the thread topic.

[melvin]

 

If there a murder-free, meat-free,compassionate, healthy and spiritual life possible without having to KILL any animals, why is there a need for all these cold blooded slaughtering?

Human beings dont NEED to kill animals in order to remain "healthy" or to "progress". A highly civilized society is not the one that develops in terms of material gains, by slaughtering animals, and churning out everything mother Earth has to offer to us. Society can only progress when we as humans learn to live in harmony not only within ourselves but with our relation to our mother Earth.

 

 

 

Where will human society get the resources to feed multitudes of hogs, cows and chickens if they are not killed for food?

[theist]

 

Originally Posted by melvin

Where will human society get the resources to feed multitudes of hogs, cows and chickens if they are not killed for food?

 

Where does human society get the resources to feed the elephants and whales? It doesn't because Krishna is the maintainer not humans. As Jesus said; consider the sparrows and flowers and how our Father cares for each one of them personally.

 

There are so many cows, pigs and chickens because they are being bred to feed the voracious blood cravings of the meateating class. As people gradually begin to give up eating flesh their numbers will also decrease in a corresponding manner.

 

If Ford is not selling so many cars then they will naturally produce less to be sold. Simple demand and supply.

"If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru." - Madhya 13.18 purport

 

Welcome to PrabhupadaBooks.com -- Original, Unedited Pre-1978 Works of Srila Prabhupada

Edited July 25, 2009 by theist

[theist]

.

 

Let's say the calf that Krishna is holding and protecting is a male calf. Do you think He would surrender that calf to be slaughtered for veal so you could have milk to offer Him? Does that make sense to you?

Edited July 25, 2009 by theist

[sant]

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by melvin

Where will human society get the resources to feed multitudes of hogs, cows and chickens if they are not killed for food?

 

Where does human society get the resources to feed the elephants and whales? It doesn't because Krishna is the maintainer not humans. As Jesus said; consider the sparrows and flowers and how our Father cares for each one of them personally.

 

There are so many cows, pigs and chickens because they are being bred to feed the voracious blood cravings of the meateating class. As people gradually begin to give up eating flesh their numbers will also decrease in a corresponding manner.

 

If Ford is not selling so many cars then they will naturally produce less to be sold. Simple demand and supply.

MElvin keep your disgusting tast animal like taste and views to your self.

cars are not living beings.

reminds me of a video where prabhupada was talking to a priest who also came up with how will we feed our children without beef.

[melvin]

 

MElvin keep your disgusting tast animal like taste and views to your self.

 

 

 

Sant, I was just asking from a carnivore`s point of view. What if I were a tiger asking you this question? How will human society get the resources to feed the multitudes of hogs, cows, and chickens if they wont be killed for food? when human society couldn`t even feed adequately her billions of siblings? Multiply one loaf of bread and fish to billions daily so she would have the time to plant corn and wheat to feed the mutitudes of hogs, cows, and chickens?

[melvin]

 

.

 

Let's say the calf that Krishna is holding and protecting is a male calf. Do you think He would surrender that calf to be slaughtered for veal so you could have milk to offer Him? Does that make sense to you?

 

Why is always Krsna in the picture, Theist? Where is Balaram, the twin brother of Krsna? What do you think is Balaram`s opinion? There are two sides of the coin. And I want to know Balaram`s side on this grave matter. If there`s a ying, there`s a yang to it. The negative and the opposite. Without it there`s no attraction. There`s no electricity without the negative and the positive come clashing together. That`s the ecosystem at work here. Carnivores have reincarnated into human beings and they are now eating hogs, cows, and chickens or else this planet would be inhabited by trillions of animals and they are being fed by multitudes of human beings who don`t eat meat!

[sant]

 

Sant, I was just asking from a carnivore`s point of view. What if I were a tiger asking you this question? How will human society get the resources to feed the multitudes of hogs, cows, and chickens if they wont be killed for food? when human society couldn`t even feed adequately her billions of siblings? Multiply one loaf of bread and fish to billions daily so she would have the time to plant corn and wheat to feed the mutitudes of hogs, cows, and chickens?

i apologise.

human society raises cats,cows chickens to slaughter them.

Human society doesnt necessarily have to feed all animals

you eat beef?

[Smiley]

Well if you have a recipe for delicious almond milk, please share.

 

 

... here is an idea for a substitute. Make some almond milk to offer to Krishna. No tree is hurt in the process and the soul of the almond trees will get sukriti and the devotees won't be seen to be engaged in hypocrisy on the cow protection issue.

 

After the soul in the cow body and the soul in the almond tree are to be seen on an equal level so why not help them?