cow's milk again

theist · July 25, 2009

Where will human society get the resources to feed multitudes of hogs, cows and chickens if they are not killed for food?

Where does human society get the resources to feed the elephants and whales? It doesn't because Krishna is the maintainer not humans. As Jesus said; consider the sparrows and flowers and how our Father cares for each one of them personally.

There are so many cows, pigs and chickens because they are being bred to feed the voracious blood cravings of the meateating class. As people gradually begin to give up eating flesh their numbers will also decrease in a corresponding manner.

If Ford is not selling so many cars then they will naturally produce less to be sold. Simple demand and supply.

theist · July 25, 2009

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Haridasdasdas · July 25, 2009

Fine, it's your choice. According to you one can't be a Gaudiya Vaisnava without drinking milk. I don'r share that opinion.

For me the emphasis should be on cow protection and not drinking the milk of enslaved, ill-treated and soon to be slaughtered cows.

When I said a Gaudiya I meant a follower of Prabhupada, Narayan Maharaj etc.

So how can a follower of Prabhupada decry something that Prabhupada did? Where is the consistency? I am not saying you do or don't have to take any dairy products.

I am saying that saying dairy is unethical is contradictory to the teachings of Prabhupada, and anybody who claims to follow him should be aware of that. How can a person accept Prabhupada as Jagat Guru, and then say, 'oh, but he was wrong about milk products, he was supporting cow slaughter, he was a bad person'?

So basically you think Prabhupada was an unethical person. Am i wrong?

EDIT: Just to let everyone know, theist is lactose intolerant as he said in the previous thread. So he can't take dairy products. Correct me if I am wrong.

Theist:

If you can prove to me that your stance does not contradict Prabhupada, and does not condemn him as a supporter of killing, then I shall fully accept what you say, and I shall stop buying dairy products immediately. That is my promise.

OmHari · July 25, 2009

When I said a Gaudiya I meant a follower of Prabhupada, Narayan Maharaj etc.

So how can a follower of Prabhupada decry something that Prabhupada did? Where is the consistency? I am not saying you do or don't have to take any dairy products.

I am saying that saying dairy is unethical is contradictory to the teachings of Prabhupada, and anybody who claims to follow him should be aware of that. How can a person accept Prabhupada as Jagat Guru, and then say, 'oh, but he was wrong about milk products, he was supporting cow slaughter, he was a bad person'?

So basically you think Prabhupada was an unethical person. Am i wrong?

EDIT: Just to let everyone know, theist is lactose intolerant as he said in the previous thread. So he can't take dairy products. Correct me if I am wrong.

Theist:

If you can prove to me that your stance does not contradict Prabhupada, and does not condemn him as a supporter of killing, then I shall fully accept what you say, and I shall stop buying dairy products immediately. That is my promise.

The question is about cow protection, not only in west but in India as well. Just that the point doesnt get looked over, Theist is emphasising on it over and over, which is right onits own. I dont think see any contradictions here. You as well emphasized on protection of cows. So did Srila Prabhupadji. Its all about becoming aware of it and spreading the word. I would like to tell all of you though, we must spread the word OUT where there is BIGGER issue of Slaughtering of ANIMALS, that is a REAL problem, and it is attaching itself to the dairy, and many other things which we many knowingly or unknowing consume, thats a shame.

Haridasdasdas · July 25, 2009

The question is about cow protection, not only in west but in India as well. Just that the point doesnt get looked over, Theist is emphasising on it over and over, which is right onits own. I dont think see any contradictions here. You as well emphasized on protection of cows. So did Srila Prabhupadji. Its all about becoming aware of it and spreading the word. I would like to tell all of you though, we must spread the word OUT where there is BIGGER issue of Slaughtering of ANIMALS, that is a REAL problem, and it is attaching itself to the dairy, and many other things which we many knowingly or unknowing consume, thats a shame.

Prabhupada's disciples asked him if they should still buy milk products from commercial dairies involved in the meat industry. He said we should take it and offer it to Krishna, until we can get it all from cow protection efforts of our own.

So basically you haven't answered my question, and didn't really understand it in the first place.

theist · July 26, 2009

Prabhupada's disciples asked him if they should still buy milk products from commercial dairies involved in the meat industry. He said we should take it and offer it to Krishna, until we can get it all from cow protection efforts of our own.

So basically you haven't answered my question, and didn't really understand it in the first place.

Which hasn't been done or even seriously tried except by a handful of devotees. TIME'S UP!

Stop killing cows in Krishna's name!!!

theist · July 26, 2009

When I said a Gaudiya I meant a follower of Prabhupada, Narayan Maharaj etc.

So how can a follower of Prabhupada decry something that Prabhupada did? Where is the consistency? I am not saying you do or don't have to take any dairy products.

As I said above I disagree with Srila Prabhupada on several points. Also I do not call myself a follower. I may or may not ever be a follower but I will never call myself one.

If the totality of my life does not bear witness to a Krishna conscious life then what value would there be in a verbal proclamation? If my life does bear witness to a Krishna conscious life then what need of a verbal proclamation?

I am saying that saying dairy is unethical is contradictory to the teachings of Prabhupada, and anybody who claims to follow him should be aware of that. How can a person accept Prabhupada as Jagat Guru, and then say, 'oh, but he was wrong about milk products, he was supporting cow slaughter, he was a bad person'?

I think your first sentence is worded in a way you did not mean. IMO cow protection is more important than consuming dairy products. I believe it would have been far better if he had forbidden the consumption of dairy until cow protection was in place.

No one said Prabhupada was a "bad person" and FU for trying to put those words in my mouth.

No rational person can deny that supporting the demonic dairy industry is supporting cow slaughter. Can you deny the plain facts of it?

So basically you think Prabhupada was an unethical person. Am i wrong?

Again this line of questions is really pissing me off. There is a huge difference between being unethical and chosing a wrong course of action.

EDIT: Just to let everyone know, theist is lactose intolerant as he said in the previous thread. So he can't take dairy products. Correct me if I am wrong.

Well actually it is an allergy to milk protein. Milk p[roducts taken several days in a row will make me quite ill. But even though health concerns were my original reason for being vegan I later learned of the horrors of the dairy industry and that is enough to become vegan and to promote it heavily.

Theist:
If you can prove to me that your stance does not contradict Prabhupada, and does not condemn him as a supporter of killing, then I shall fully accept what you say, and I shall stop buying dairy products immediately. That is my promise.

Good deal. I just proved it in my last post. Using your quote that Srila Prabhupada said to offer commercial milk only until cow protection was established. That was over 40 years ago and it is clear cow protection in the vedic model will never be established within the next 100 years in the West to any significant degree that leaves veganism as the ONLY viable method of cow protection that we have.

So it is clear that Srila Prabhupada was in favor of cow protection and you as a dairy consumer are not protecting cows but rather supporting there slaughter the onus is really on you to show that you will be a follower of Srila Prabhupada's instruction to protect the cows. Will you now?

Haridasdasdas · July 26, 2009

Good deal. I just proved it in my last post. Using your quote that Srila Prabhupada said to offer commercial milk only until cow protection was established. That was over 40 years ago and it is clear cow protection in the vedic model will never be established within the next 100 years in the West to any significant degree that leaves veganism as the ONLY viable method of cow protection that we have.

So it is clear that Srila Prabhupada was in favor of cow protection and you as a dairy consumer are not protecting cows but rather supporting there slaughter the onus is really on you to show that you will be a follower of Srila Prabhupada's instruction to protect the cows. Will you now?

Prabhupada never said to end dairy consumption. He said to always offer dairy products to Krishna to relieve the suffering of the cows.You've twisted his words to suit your own agenda, in the same way you previously twisted my words to pretend that I said Vaisnavas need to drink milk.

I also do not care in the slightest for your swearing and insinuation of such. I have not approached you as an enemy, I have tried to talk with you, and you attack me with 'FU'. It doesn't raise the bar of the conversation. Neither does posting the same topic again and again all over the forums. That comes across as obsessive, and fanatical.

For the record, I recall in the first one of these threads you made a few months ago, you said that people who supported the dairy industry were cow killers. You can search it up if you like. Prabhupada supported the dairy industry. Therefore I am not taking you out of context in any way if I say that you are making a very direct attack on Srila Prabhupada.

I can't imagine that I have much else to say on this matter, and please excuse me if I take a while to reply, because I may be away for a few days.

theist · July 27, 2009

For the record, I recall in the first one of these threads you made a few months ago, you said that people who supported the dairy industry were cow killers. You can search it up if you like. Prabhupada supported the dairy industry. Therefore I am not taking you out of context in any way if I say that you are making a very direct attack on Srila Prabhupada.

I can't imagine that I have much else to say on this matter, and please excuse me if I take a while to reply, because I may be away for a few days.

Attack. Can you get any more emotive? I said already that allowing it until cow protection takes hold is IMO a mistake on the part of Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada taught cow protection. You are the one attacking cows. You cannot deny that cows and calves die and are mistreated by you using dairy from unprotected cows. Dance around all you like you are still killing cows.

Ignoring the instruction to protect cows yet still trying to enjoy your mother's milk.

But like I said do as you like. Everyone gets the results of their actions and non-actions. But of course you probably consider yourself above karmic reaction because you conduct a ceremony before you eat.

In any case no need continuing this discussion.

Oh and if you are so tired talking about the issue why are particapating on this thread?

theist · July 27, 2009

Does Krishna like milk from unprotected cows? «

Jahnava Nitai Das · July 27, 2009

Does Krishna like milk from unprotected cows? «

That was a good article. Some times we go along with hiding the terrible atrocities from ourselves (just like the factories want us to), and thereby feel it doesn't really concern us.

The more we know about the torture the cows are undergoing, the more we will lose taste for the by-product.

I am certain if we had one of these cows in our back yard, and we had to watch a guy come and do the things they do to the cows in front of us, we would never buy milk from him when he finished and came to our door. What that means is we know its wrong, but as long as we don't see it we are happy. The same psychological process occurs when a minority is being exterminated (suppose jews, or any other). As long as we don't see it, we pretend it isnt happening and everything is alright.

It is a complex problem. I think the best solution would be to again give emphasis to Prabhupada's instructions to protect cows. You can't take just half an instruction. Prabhupada says protect cows and drink milk. But if someone only wants to highlight the importance of drinking milk, but not protecting cows, then they arent truly representing the message of the guru.

Protecting cows isn't just a nice phrase to say, it requires a whole lot of hard work. In fact it will likely make who ever does it completely broke. There is no way to break even taking care of cows in a humane manner, since you have to compete against factory farms that don't need to spend money taking care of the cows.

The cost of the food for the cow will actually be more than the cost of selling the milk, even in a place like India. So people are left with terrible alternatives, such as diluting the milk, selling the bull calves for slaughter, leaving the cows to find their own food in the streets, etc. The fact is literally every single person chooses these cheap solutions, neglecting the welfare of the cow. This is why we all have to suffer the effects of Kali yuga. There will never be peace or happiness in society as long as the cows are being mistreated as they are now, especially by people claiming to be religious and following dharma.

In order to create a model that could financially perpetuate itself, you would need a large community of devotees willing to pay 5 times the price for milk compared to store prices, with the idea that the cows are being protected and therefore it is a donation for their welfare (go-seva). Only then could a goshala have enough funds to properly feed, maintain, and protect cows and their offsprings (bulls, etc.) for their entire lives. Unfortunately, I don't think this will ever happen, as people in general, will unlikely be willing to pay more money for milk when it is available for 1/5th the price from abused cows.

smaranam · July 27, 2009

So true.

Which means....

Step one: We can start looking at Gopal-cow-milk as a very precious commodity like gold or saffron. Not to drink like water and juice or as ghee for deep frying. But to be bought in limited quantities, little packets - especially for puja and festivals.

Vegan devotees could do that – to realize that cow milk is THAT precious in Kali Yuga.

If nutrition is the issue, i cannot see how the milk from an ever-pregnant-lactating-cow can be any more Sattvic than Soy , rice or almond milks -

Taste The Dream: Dream Brand Non-Dairy Beverages and Frozen Desserts

or fruit smoothies (milkshakes that grow on trees).

Then we can pray that we will all be able to make helping these farms a priority one day -

In any way possible ....

- magazine subscription

- buying milk and fresh produce from the farm

- offsetting for fruit-vegetable grocery

- adopt a cow

- adhoc donation

- volunteering as farmers and cowherds - there could be some young dreamy Gopas out there for all we know.