ranjeetmore Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 The word atma technically means ‘the Divinity’. So, in the Upnishads, except for a few places, the word atma has been generally used for God, the absolute Divinity, like: Brihadaranyak Upnishad says, “The supreme Divinity (God) should be desired by a soul to be visualized.” Aitreya Upnishad says, “The supreme Divinity (God) existed before the creation of this universe.” The word brahm means the absolute Divinity Who is absolutely great and makes a soul great like Himself after God realization. In the Upnishads the term brahm mostly refers to the personal form of God and occasionally to the impersonal (nirakar) aspect of God, just like the verse 7 in the Mandukyopnishad. The reason is that the nirakar aspect of God or nirakar brahm is formless and actionless and so it cannot even Grace the souls or become the creator of the universe or do any other thing of any kind. It is only the ‘purush,’ the personal form of God, Who does all those things. The Upnishads describe the Gracious kindness of God awarding liberation and His abode to the souls, and the creation of the universe etc. This is the work of the personal God only, that’s why there is very little description of the nirakar (actionless) brahm in them. The most important thing is that nirakar brahm, being an existence of absolutely dormant virtues (avyakt shaktik), can never even manifest its Blissfulness. It is like the subtle dormant state of the beauty of a flower that dormantly exists in its seed that has not even taken the shape of a plant. So, wherever the Upnishads talk about the Divine knowledge or Bliss (chidanand)of brahm, they only refer to the personal form of God and not the nirakar brahm. The Upnishads mostly use pronouns when referring to God, like, sah (He), ishah (controller God), purushah (personal God), and tasya (His) etc. However, there are a number of Upnishads like Tripadvibhushit Maha Narayanopnishad, Gopal Tapiniyopnishad, Krishnopnishad etc., which directly relate to the personal form of God and they clearly indicate that nirakar brahm is established in the personal form of God. So, personal form is the main form of God. There is one more point that sometimes confuses the intellectuals. The Upnishads sometimes tell, which literally means that the one who receives liberation becomes Narain or the one who receives liberation becomes brahm. That’s true, but the Upnishad further says, which means that no one could be absolutely equal to God. This situation is clarified by the producer of the Vedas, Bhagwan Ved Vyas himself. He says in the Brahm Sutra, that the synonymity of a liberated soul does not synonymize him with the functions of God, like the creation, protection and destruction of the universe, or His absolute omnipresence etc. It only relates with the Blissful synonymity of the form of God he has attained. It means that, upon God realization, the worshipper of the nirakar brahm enters the absolutely dormant state of the Divinity called kaivalya mokch and stays there forever in a kind of totally passed out state, because the nirakar brahm itself is an actionless dormant Divinity. The worshipper of God Vishnu, upon God realization, experiences the same kind and the amount of the Divine Bliss which God Vishnu Himself experiences in His abode, and so do the worshippers of Bhagwan Ram and Krishn. Isn’t it the incomparable unlimited loving Grace of God, Who awards His limitless personal Love and Bliss to a maya-inflicted soul who has committed uncountable transgressions and has accumulated uncountable sins in past unlimited lifetimes? Yet, the souls are so gross-headed that, ignoring His unlimited love, Grace and kindness, they remain engrossed in their material activities and lose the golden opportunity of having a human life which is the only hope of receiving His Grace and becoming His loving one forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranjeetmore Posted August 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 ^-written by Sri Prakashanand sarasvati. And before there is any growls from the pack- if whatever is stated above is fundamenally wrong or untrue,ONLY then you can start the bashing...otherwise let the Vaishnavas and the neutrals discuss here... I don't want to fight-as i KNOW it is pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 So, Brahm is atma, but (liberated) atma is not Brahm. Like the ocean is water, but (any amount of) water is not the ocean. I think that’s agreed by all Vaishnavas and Advaitins. Any disagreement would concern the status of God as a person and the existence of an objective reality in relation to the individual conscious soul.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sant Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Very good post thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranjeetmore Posted August 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Hope you didn't take it as Jeeva is Brahm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sant Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 no i understood very well explained but i still have doubts. for even narad puran talks about advaita. And the gita keeps on talking about the self Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smaranam Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 no i understood very well explained but i still have doubts.for even narad puran talks about advaita. And the gita keeps on talking about the self Dvaita and advaita are different aspects and perspectives of the same Absolute Truth acc. to me, who is a Person by the way. You know Who Why not just surrender and hand our "self" over to Him, the most beautiful , generous, kind, and the most natkhat ONE ? Then all these qns will not arise. We are His servants , beloved associates. Story ends. He waits for us to shed our material vices, ego, attachments, and finally return to Him , but stays with us despite all these. Can you please be specific while saying , "Gita keeps talking about the self" ? Or give some example verses , where your doubts lie , then the Gurus here might clear them before the forum closes. BG 10.10: To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me. BG 10.11: To show them special mercy, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance. All the best. May Krshna bless you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sant Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 6.25 śanaiḥ śanair uparamed buddhyā dhṛti-gṛhītayā ātma-saḿsthaḿ manaḥ kṛtvā na kiñcid api cintayet SYNONYMS śanaiḥ — gradually; śanaiḥ — step by step; uparamet — one should hold back; buddhyā — by intelligence; dhṛti-gṛhītayā — carried by conviction; ātma-saḿstham — placed in transcendence; manaḥ — mind; kṛtvā — making; na — not; kiñcit — anything else; api — even; cintayet — should think of. TRANSLATION Gradually, step by step, one should become situated in trance by means of intelligence sustained by full conviction, and thus the mind should be fixed on the self alone and should think of nothing else. Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 3.3 śrī-bhagavān uvāca loke 'smin dvi-vidhā niṣṭhā purā proktā mayānagha jñāna-yogena sāńkhyānāḿ karma-yogena yoginām SYNONYMS śrī-bhagavān uvāca — the Supreme Personality of Godhead said; loke — in the world; asmin — this; dvi-vidhā — two kinds of; niṣṭhā — faith; purā — formerly; proktā — were said; mayā — by Me; anagha — O sinless one; jñāna-yogena — by the linking process of knowledge; sāńkhyānām — of the empiric philosophers; karma-yogena — by the linking process of devotion; yoginām — of the devotees. TRANSLATION The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O sinless Arjuna, I have already explained that there are two classes of men who try to realize the self. Some are inclined to understand it by empirical, philosophical speculation, and others by devotional service. Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 3.17 yas tv ātma-ratir eva syād ātma-tṛptaś ca mānavaḥ ātmany eva ca santuṣṭas tasya kāryaḿ na vidyate SYNONYMS yaḥ — one who; tu — but; ātma-ratiḥ — taking pleasure in the self; eva — certainly; syāt — remains; ātma-tṛptaḥ — self-illuminated; ca — and; mānavaḥ — a man; ātmani — in himself; eva — only; ca — and; santuṣṭaḥ — perfectly satiated; tasya — his; kāryam — duty; na — does not; vidyate — exist. TRANSLATION But for one who takes pleasure in the self, whose human life is one of self-realization, and who is satisfied in the self only, fully satiated — for him there is no duty. BG 8.3: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: The indestructible, transcendental living entity is called Brahman, and his eternal nature is called adhyātma, the self. Action pertaining to the development of the material bodies of the living entities is called karma, or fruitive activities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sant Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 6.25 śanaiḥ śanair uparamed buddhyā dhṛti-gṛhītayā ātma-saḿsthaḿ manaḥ kṛtvā na kiñcid api cintayet SYNONYMS śanaiḥ — gradually; śanaiḥ — step by step; uparamet — one should hold back; buddhyā — by intelligence; dhṛti-gṛhītayā — carried by conviction; ātma-saḿstham — placed in transcendence; manaḥ — mind; kṛtvā — making; na — not; kiñcit — anything else; api — even; cintayet — should think of. TRANSLATION Gradually, step by step, one should become situated in trance by means of intelligence sustained by full conviction, and thus the mind should be fixed on the self alone and should think of nothing else. Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 3.3 śrī-bhagavān uvāca loke 'smin dvi-vidhā niṣṭhā purā proktā mayānagha jñāna-yogena sāńkhyānāḿ karma-yogena yoginām SYNONYMS śrī-bhagavān uvāca — the Supreme Personality of Godhead said; loke — in the world; asmin — this; dvi-vidhā — two kinds of; niṣṭhā — faith; purā — formerly; proktā — were said; mayā — by Me; anagha — O sinless one; jñāna-yogena — by the linking process of knowledge; sāńkhyānām — of the empiric philosophers; karma-yogena — by the linking process of devotion; yoginām — of the devotees. TRANSLATION The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O sinless Arjuna, I have already explained that there are two classes of men who try to realize the self. Some are inclined to understand it by empirical, philosophical speculation, and others by devotional service. Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 3.17 yas tv ātma-ratir eva syād ātma-tṛptaś ca mānavaḥ ātmany eva ca santuṣṭas tasya kāryaḿ na vidyate SYNONYMS yaḥ — one who; tu — but; ātma-ratiḥ — taking pleasure in the self; eva — certainly; syāt — remains; ātma-tṛptaḥ — self-illuminated; ca — and; mānavaḥ — a man; ātmani — in himself; eva — only; ca — and; santuṣṭaḥ — perfectly satiated; tasya — his; kāryam — duty; na — does not; vidyate — exist. TRANSLATION But for one who takes pleasure in the self, whose human life is one of self-realization, and who is satisfied in the self only, fully satiated — for him there is no duty. BG 8.3: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: The indestructible, transcendental living entity is called Brahman, and his eternal nature is called adhyātma, the self. Action pertaining to the development of the material bodies of the living entities is called karma, or fruitive activities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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