BHAKTI (CONTD)

[Guest guest]

, " Nitin Dhawan " <nitin wrote:

>

> Can someone elaborate the difference between bhakti yoga and blind

faith.

==============================

Osho said " Blind faith " is a wrong word. As per Osho, the faith is

always blind...there cant be a faith which has the light of logics.

 

Faith means believing in a thing/god/idea without seeing it

physically/logically or without any logical conclusions.

 

Osho said - there is no harm in having faith (blindfaith) to start

with...otherwise how will you start !

 

I think that all bhaktas have to start with blind faith...and if

their bhakti is later supported by their mystical experiences, it

becomes Bhakti Yoga...

 

Those who keep dwelling in blind faith, and do not go for

practical sadhna and mystical experiences become fanatics.

 

An example of Islam here is worth mentioning. Islam asks its

followers to follow without questioning (blindly) the teachings of

Prophet. The Sufis of India, started from this faith...but went

ahead with direct experience of the Mysticism...

 

although sufis were not liked by traditional muslims, they were

revered by both Hindu & muslim masses. What Indian Sufis have

written is the highest philosophy of Vedanta and other Truths, which

muslims missed to see.

 

Indian Sufis like Baba Bulle-shah, Ghulam Farid, Waris Shah,

Kabir...have gone beyond Faith and entered the realms of Truth and

mysticism.... they were Bhakti yogis in true sense.

 

Aum

[Guest guest]

, " Aum " <beirut_ka_baba

 

> Aradhana you are right that fanaticism is not pardonable...But i

> have experienced at least 90 & of bhaktas (that includes christians

&

 

Dear baba you are not wrong.Thats true! But it depends upon the

individual.Just as you said in todays world very few people are to be found that

are not fanatical.I think that if somebody is fanatical his or her sadhana is

being obstructed by such rejection of others.Look what a coincidence! I was

about to ask you just that.Why do you think we need one Ishta only? What will

happen if we worship more than one forms of God?

 

Dear baba Guru is really the greatest.For each his own Guru ie a

sadguru is Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.Rejecting the fact that there is

no need for a Guru is also a fanaticism. Because having a Guru

before us makes a huge huge difference to our lives.At the same time

each of us already have a Guru ie our eternal Sadguru or the inner

Guru.

 

Besides baba perhaps you know that I have a Guruji but when I read

Jesus I feel that Krishna or my Guruji is speaking to me through

them. You know that Shirdi Sain Baba isnt my Guruji but I read and

even share his beautiful sermons because I dont see any different

between Krishna, my Guruji and him. Also I like to read from

different Saints and religions.Its the same inner guru baba thats

teaching us.I dont think like this- " I should worship my Ishta alone

or that I should only listen to my Guruji " .For the supreme Guru is in our

heart.He is always directing us. You need not have asked this

question from me because this is what Shirdi Sain Baba explains in

next sermon

 

Jai Siya Ram

[Guest guest]

, " Aum " <beirut_ka_baba wrote:

>

> , " Nitin Dhawan " <nitin@> wrote:

> >

> > Can someone elaborate the difference between bhakti yoga and blind

> faith.

> ==============================

> Osho said " Blind faith " is a wrong word. As per Osho, the faith is

> always blind...there cant be a faith which has the light of logics.

>

> Faith means believing in a thing/god/idea without seeing it

> physically/logically or without any logical conclusions.

>

> Osho said - there is no harm in having faith (blindfaith) to start

> with...otherwise how will you start !

 

>I agree with this. But infact faith is never blind.There is wisdom in

faith too.For example- You need to read and have faith in Geeta sermons

to be initiated on the path of spirituality and from the beginning to

the end if you cling to each word with proper understanding you will

always be saved by kRISHNA'S GUIDANCE.However that does not mean that

you stick to words that you find convenient and refuse to follow the

other words of Krishna.For example Krishna says- " be a gyaani " . Then

Krishna says " gyaana and yog are one " . It wont suffice to stick to the

first and refuse to accept the later say that " no. gyaana is superior

to bhakti or karma yog is superior to others etc "

however as we move ahead that which we have read and learnt by heart

will be transformed into experience which will lead to real

understanding or living of that which we had learned through sermons

and scriptures.It is one thing to know and another thing to " live " it.

Scriptures tell us how we should live. We should follow them with

complete faith and infallibilty and when we progress , we experience

and actuially live the way God wants us to.

 

it is only through faith that one gets initiated

 

regards

[Guest guest]

How I understand the philosophy is

 

.. There are three paths towards achieving purpose of life - Karma,

Gyan and Bhakti Yoga.

 

.. Depending on the nature of the individual , one should pursue what

is best suited to him.

 

 

 

So each one of the paths should be complete in themselves. Some one

explained how pursuit of Bhakti yoga could lead to mystic experience, which

I believe is indicating progress on that path.

 

 

 

The fact that you are reading the Geeta to find your way means that you are

on the Gyaan yoga. So here bhakti is not prime, what is prime is that you

understand the message and adopt it. It is only when one is able to test and

make the knowledge ones own that you believe it and grow further . So if

you only read the message , having faith in it, you are neither on the path

of gyaan yoga nor on bhakti yoga.

 

 

 

Bhakti yoga would be for people who have so much love in their heart that

they would feel God. They do not really need to read the Geeta.

 

 

 

Most of us here would be gyana yogis, as we are trying to reason the

philosophy out before making it our own. Incidentally , through our

understanding of the philosophy we may realize that being compassionate is

the right way to live - and so we may be compassionate and look like Bhakti

Yogis.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Nitin

[Guest guest]

, " Aum " <beirut_ka_baba

>

> Aradhana you are right that fanaticism is not pardonable...But i

> have experienced at least 90 & of bhaktas (that includes christians

&

> muslims too)....are ready to kill/die for their deity.

> Baba I had a hillarious experience one day on ya itself. lol . You

know that there were many Vaishnavas on ya. They were all followers

of this certain math that iskcon is a part of.One day they posed a

question - " How do we recognise a true Guru? " I thought- " thats a

very nice question. Very relevant in todays time " So I also joined the

discussion. They said that the sidhdhis are used by many false Gurus to misguide

common people these days. I agreed and said that one should be cautious these

days. They seemed happy with me till then and became very enthusiastic bcos no

one except me had joined thier discussion so one said to another- " try to rope in

more people " .They said " whats the way " . I gave a very simple and innocent

answer- " We should pray to Krishna in our heart very sincerely and ask him to

resolve our doubts and save us from being cheated by anyone. Krishna alone will

take all responsibility "

 

In response to this they gave me a lot of thumbs down and said- " that only the

disciples of these maths should be made Guru because all else are bogus " and

then they gave names of some maths and another said its very difficult because

these maths have been subdivided further lately into many other institutions. So

I said very innocently that its not necessary to follow such lines because even

Mira bai made a Guru of Saint Ravi Das who belonged to no math but was born an

untouchable and was a shoe maker by profession. I said please tell me where I

can find Chaitanyamrita which they claimed mentioned all avtaaras of kalyuga.I

said for a confirmation- " does it mention Shirdi Sain Baba too? " They said - " no "

 

At this they became mad and I was very perplexed because I couldnt

understand at that time why they were behaving in such a way. They

had no answer to this they got very irritated and said to me- " Go

surrender to Krishna,read Chaitanyamrita and Srimadbhagvatam, you are a

potential devotee of ISKCON " .I became angry on this and said - " I have a Guru.

 

I would read his scripture first because till now I havent read even

a chapter from it.Why would I follow your Guru?? Besides I have read

many parts of the Srimadbhagvatam and the remainng are still left so you neednt

tell me what I should do "

 

Then one of them mailed me and said that Saint Ravi Das recieved

instructions from this Guru of our institution.I was shocked at this

excuse of his.

 

Then i posed a couple of questions as retaliation in which I said

that cant I follow my own Guru and in another I said that Shiva and Vishnu are

one and the same.

So they became quiet for then and didnt attack me openly. Then next

day I was bombarded with messages telling me I was " ignorant " , " offender of

Vaishnavas " , I didnt know " Shiv tattva and Vishnu tattva " , I was " angry, away

from shaastras " etc etc lol

 

After that I recieved a couple of messages from " non vaishnavas "

asking that I was a devotee of Shiva or a Shaiva. I replied " forgive me. I am no

Vaishnava or Shaiva. I am just a Hindu " lol

 

Aradhana

[Guest guest]

> The fact that you are reading the Geeta to find your way means that

you are

> on the Gyaan yoga. So here bhakti is not prime, what is prime is

that you

> understand the message and adopt it. It is only when one is able to

test and

> make the knowledge ones own that you believe it and grow further .

So if

> you only read the message , having faith in it, you are neither on

the path

> of gyaan yoga nor on bhakti yoga.

> IF one has faith he is on path of no yog!?

> he might not have reached the culmination of bhakti or gyaan but

that doesnt mean that he isnt on the path at all.Faith is an integral

part of bhakti or love.For example faith during adversity that

whatever happens is for our good because God would never allow

anything incorrect to happen to us doesnt come from books. It comes

from the heart. There are many bogus teachers giving sermons of God

when they are involved in drug trafficking etc. (I am not saying

this, the newspapers have exposed many such scams in last few years)

but why arent they scared of God? Because they dont have faith in the

scriptures they read and talk from. So faith comes from the heart and

it is because of love that a bhakta never easily looses his faith

[Guest guest]

, " Nitin Dhawan " <nitin wrote:

> Would it be correct to say that mystic experience in the path of

Bhakti Yoga is a confirmation that one is on the right track?

 

YES THAT WOULD BE TRUE

 

> What would indicate progress in gyan yoga - do they also have

>similar mystical experience ? and karam yoga?

 

 

Gyanis also have mystical experiences, but those experiences may

differ from those of Bhaktas. Their visions may contain expansion of

consciousness or a feeling of going above solar system, or a feeling

of containing whole universe in their heart.

 

Karam yogi also have mystical experiences, may be a little different.

There is a story in mahabharat/bhagvatam, where a domestic woman and a

butcher attain more siddhis than a Yogi, who spent 12 years in forest

doing tapas. (if u dont know this story...i will write for you on

sadhna board)

 

>Isn't pursuit in Gyan Yoga without a sort of mystical experience

>also blind faith?

 

Not really because Gyani go by logics and their faith starts after

seeing the Truth...before that they have no expectations. ( I am

talking of real gyanis..not dry, bookish intellectuals)

 

>What is fanaticism because of - Is it lack of knowledge or lack of

>love? What is the right way to address it

>

 

Fanaticism is lack of both knowledge and divine Love. I personally

do not condemn fanaticism as i think it is a transitory stage and less

evolved (spiritually) human do behave in a fanatical way. This may be

necessary to force other demonic humans to accept the presence of

Truth higher than physical world.

 

Fanaticism becomes a problem when a group tries to force their

views on all, not caring that others may be spiritually higher than

them.

 

for example, it is OK to force the cannibals of africa to accept

Jesus as only Truth and become better human beings....

 

But when those missionaries try to condemn Yoga and Indian/Buddhist

way of Meditation, as sin, it becomes fanaticism...as yoga is higher

than their belief.

 

A real spiritual person can not be fanatic irrespective of

religion.

 

 

Aum

[Guest guest]

Nitinji, I wouldnt say there are 3 paths- if you read the Gita

carefully( & not the interpretations of sectarian Gurus), you will find

Krishna recommends a balance of Gyan, Bhakti, Karm & Raj Yoga. Nowhere

does he say any one these is better than the others.

 

He does say that those who love him, he loves them. But this love

doesnt mean that your path becomes easier, or even faster. An atheist

who follows Raj Yogic techinques(watching breath, becoming aware etc)

might make faster progress than the Bhakta. But the Bhakta will always

know there is someone looking after him, he never has to worry.

 

Too much stress on 1 of these 3(Gyan, Bhakti or Karma) led to sects,

with either fanatic Bhakti on 1 side, or dry, intellectual Gyan on the

other. Both these ignored Karma, saying the world was evil, maya etc.

 

Saints like Sri Aurobindo tried to correct this mistake- preaching an

mixture of the 3. Aurobindo also laid great stress on Karma Yoga-

saying that no, the world isnt an illusion, or a void, rather it is a

playground of the Divine, & we are the actors- our role is to help

realise the Divine plan. Every act we do must be geared towards this goal.

 

Of course, it will take time to correct 1000s of years of wrong

thought. Like Babaji wrote some time ago, those who run away from home

like cowards, or keep their hand in air, are called great saints,

while those work to make the world a better place are called

materialists.

[Guest guest]

, " Aum " <beirut_ka_baba wrote:

> YES THAT WOULD BE TRUE

 

Fanatacism might be said to be excess of Rajogun- which is good to

control Tamoguni people(those very lazy, or very evil).

 

The problem occurs when you get stuck in Rajogun, not realising there

is another Guna above you.

 

People condemn faith, belief in God,saying it leads to fanatacism,

hatred & religious violence(see the bestselling book the God Delusion).

 

But the Gita clearly says there can be different types of faith- the

faith has to be Sattvic- based on Divine Love & trust in God, not

because we want anything from God including heaven(Rajsic) or because

we are scared of hell(Tamsic- which would put most priets out of

business).

 

Whether in Gyan, Bhakti or Karma, we always have to choose the Satwic

version. Rajogun maybe good for leading away from dullness or

inertia(Tamogun), but it has its own pitfalls, that the Sadhak has to

*conciously* identify & avoid.

[Guest guest]

I agree that all paths are one but I dont agree when anyone speaks

against renouncers.Mira was a renouncer because she was a bhakta. She

didnt follow karma yoga but she was a renouncer karma yogini because

all her activities are for Shri Krishna. Its bhakti that led Mira to

renounce. God is the one who decides what path is best for us that of a

renouncer or that of a karma yogi. God alone puts each upon thier

respective paths so i think its wrong to think if for one a combination

of these goes so will also for another! It isnt same for all so I think

the point is in being a sadhak and pursuing sadhana and not in

contemplating without reaching a particular stage where you are a

complete bhakti yogi or karma yogi or a mixture of these or something

else. All speculations about this is right and that isnt are useless

until then.A true bhakta never thinks of himself as a bhakta and a true

gyaani never thinks of himself as a gyaani

 

No Tantra I am blunt so I call it blasphemy in the name of religion. I

dont want to dwell upon fanaticism. I dont like it. I want to talk

about real spirituality so I hope that will be the topic in your next

posting

 

Jai Maata Ki

Aradhna

[Guest guest]

Mira pursued bhakti yog.

 

 

 

All the paths - Gyaan, Bhakti and Karma are ladders. The design of the

ladder is such that they are made for people of different nature. But one is

not meant to latch on to the ladder forever. The ladder helps you move up

and then leave the ladder. So no one needs to remain a bhakta, gyani and

karmath(if there is such a word) . Once you make progress along these lines,

you elevate to a level where you recognize the convergence of these paths

and have immense tolerance.

 

 

On Behalf

Of i_free_spirit

Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:13 PM

 

I agree that all paths are one but I dont agree when anyone speaks

against renouncers.Mira was a renouncer because she was a bhakta. She

[Guest guest]

Dear Balachander Govindaraghavan,Your Remarks about my Gurudeava,Srila

Prabhupada are all very Offensive! This is one of the First things a

Person,Learning Saadhanaa,is taught!To Offend a Pure Devotee of Krsna is a very

serious thing!

Only the Devotee Being Offened can Forgive You!!

 

Your Offense to the Hare Krsna Movement,or as it is Known,(ISKCON) is also very

Distastefull! Yes there are some Devotees, who are just Starting in Bhakti

Yoga ,who appear fanatic,But this is just a sign of Imaturity in devotional

Service!

 

I would like to see you,Travelling around the World,10 times,at the Late age of

70 to you 80's,Spreading Love of God,(Krsna),and starting Bhakti Yoga

Temples,All over the World??You cannot do this because you are not a Pure

Devotee of Krsna!Only a Very Speacial incarnation of a Spiritual Master,who is

Empowered By Lord Krsna can do this,and By your Offensive Words,I think Every

Member of this Furum can see that,By Your offensiveWords!

 

Can I ask You,What Scriptures Have you Translated,that you can make these

comments,on The Bhagavad-Gita,and Srimad Bhagavidtam ,That Srila Prabhupada

Translated into English,and Many Other Languages?

You said " when ever I see a ISKCON person You Run Like Hell " !I think you are

right,Except instead of running like hell,You are RUNNING TO HELL! Still I say "

may Krsna have Mercy on Your Soul " Because Srila Prabhupada Had Mercy on me,I

cannot Curse, even You,But Krsna's Mercy May Come in Many Different Forms,

Servant

to the Members of Saadhnaa,Jaya Kesava Dasa

 

Hare Krsna,Hare Krsna,Krsna Krsna,Hare Hare, Hare Rama,Hare Rama,Rama

Rama,Hare Hare!

Jai

Radhe---------------------Jai Krsna!!

 

 

-

Balachander Govindaraghavan

I disagree with Prabhupada's philosophy.... I have read many of

Prabhupada's books and I found some of them distasteful. Some were abusing

Shankara,

[Guest guest]

Humble Obeisances to al. Progress in Yoga / Sadhana.

 

There is no meter or any definite procedure / test medhod to assess one's

progress by His Gududeva or others. The only signs one can observe externally

are " glowing face, bright and contented eyes, humbleness in exchange of words

and communication and behaviour, warm greetings to fellow ones,

humility/humbleness to superiors and kindness to juniors. There is no strong

persistence about opinion and many other things. " He is always contented and

satisfied in mind and always ready to the service of others. He will stick to

his Sadhana/Yoga and won't sway away by any alurements. He will do sadhana/yoga

till he is internally satisfied. He will participate in debates but will share

experience with others humbly. No contempt or condemnation or hatred and instead

friendship to everyone. Like wise we can observe that he is trying to put in

actual practice the chapter 12th of Shreemad Bhagavad Gita, slowly and steadily

with firm devotion and determination. Heartful Regards. Keshav.

 

Nitin Dhawan <nitin wrote:

Dear Aum ,

 

It really makes sense.