Guest guest Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Namaste In a discussion with another very learned individual, I was told this following statement: " Valmiki had projected Ram as a person who tried his level best to live by principles. He was still not God. Or, at least, he never realised he was an avatar (one who undergoes an 'avataran' (coming down to earth to serve a specific purpose of the society of his time). It was latter day writers like Tulsidas who conferred godhood on Ram. " Is this true? Is there any verse in the original Valmiki Ramayana which shows divinity (avatarahood) on Rama? -Regards Rajarshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Namaste, In the episodes before Rama's birth, Valmiki clearly portrays him as an avatara of Vishnu. In " Yoga Vaasishtham " , also written by Valmiki, Rama becomes depressed. Vasishtha, in the presence of Vishwamitra and other rishis and gods, teaches self-knowledge to Rama. Vasishtha reveals the true nature of Rama then and Rama remains in samadhi. Vasishtha has to finally enter the Sushumna nadi of Rama to disturb his samadhi and bring him back to senses. After that, Rama knows who he is. Rama and Krishna were both avataras of Vishnu. Krishna knew it from the beginning. In the case of Rama, sages like Vasishtha, Vishwamitra knew it even before Rama's birth, but Rama himself did not know it in the beginning. But he too knew it later. However, Krishna had complete mastery over the duality, while Rama did not. Rama had to wade the dual world like normal people. Krishna could do any manipulation of the dual world that he wanted. Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org - " rajarshi14 " <rajarshi14 Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:45 AM Rama as God > Namaste > > In a discussion with another very learned individual, I was told this > following statement: > > " Valmiki had projected Ram as a person who tried his level best to live by > principles. He was still not God. Or, at least, he never realised he was > an avatar (one who undergoes an 'avataran' (coming down to earth to serve > a specific purpose of the society of his time). > > It was latter day writers like Tulsidas who conferred godhood on Ram. " > > Is this true? Is there any verse in the original Valmiki Ramayana which > shows divinity (avatarahood) on Rama? > > -Regards > Rajarshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 Namaste Narasimha Garu, >However, Krishna had complete mastery over the duality, while Rama >did not. >Rama had to wade the dual world like normal people. Krishna could >do any >manipulation of the dual world that he wanted. I didn't understand above. Lord Rama was a Vishnu Avataar and proclaimed by our scriptures as a 'Purnaavataar'. how come then you state difference between their level of evolution? Best Regards, Utpal , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr wrote: > > Namaste, > > In the episodes before Rama's birth, Valmiki clearly portrays him as an > avatara of Vishnu. > > In " Yoga Vaasishtham " , also written by Valmiki, Rama becomes depressed. > Vasishtha, in the presence of Vishwamitra and other rishis and gods, teaches > self-knowledge to Rama. Vasishtha reveals the true nature of Rama then and > Rama remains in samadhi. Vasishtha has to finally enter the Sushumna nadi of > Rama to disturb his samadhi and bring him back to senses. After that, Rama > knows who he is. > > Rama and Krishna were both avataras of Vishnu. Krishna knew it from the > beginning. In the case of Rama, sages like Vasishtha, Vishwamitra knew it > even before Rama's birth, but Rama himself did not know it in the beginning. > But he too knew it later. > > However, Krishna had complete mastery over the duality, while Rama did not. > Rama had to wade the dual world like normal people. Krishna could do any > manipulation of the dual world that he wanted. > > Best regards, > Narasimha > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > - > " rajarshi14 " <rajarshi14 > > Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:45 AM > Rama as God > > > > Namaste > > > > In a discussion with another very learned individual, I was told this > > following statement: > > > > " Valmiki had projected Ram as a person who tried his level best to live by > > principles. He was still not God. Or, at least, he never realised he was > > an avatar (one who undergoes an 'avataran' (coming down to earth to serve > > a specific purpose of the society of his time). > > > > It was latter day writers like Tulsidas who conferred godhood on Ram. " > > > > Is this true? Is there any verse in the original Valmiki Ramayana which > > shows divinity (avatarahood) on Rama? > > > > -Regards > > Rajarshi > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 Dear Narasmihaji Thank you for the reference to the Yoga Vashistam. Plus the Vishnu Puran also mentiones Lord Rama as an avatar. Though I could not convince the person I was discussing with, one thing sturck me as interesting. Lord Rama is the Surya Vamshi. Surya related to the right channel, the path of logic and discrimination and structure. This you had explanied in your mail on Dakshina Kali. Where as Lord Krishna was a Chandra Vamshi, of the lunar channel of intution/emotion etc. As a corollary, can the path shown by Lord Rama be equated to the path of Dakshina Kali and that of Krishna as Vama Kali. -Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Thu, 4/6/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr wrote: Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr Re: Rama as God Date: Thursday, 4 June, 2009, 9:05 AM Namaste,In the episodes before Rama's birth, Valmiki clearly portrays him as an avatara of Vishnu.In "Yoga Vaasishtham" , also written by Valmiki, Rama becomes depressed. Vasishtha, in the presence of Vishwamitra and other rishis and gods, teaches self-knowledge to Rama. Vasishtha reveals the true nature of Rama then and Rama remains in samadhi. Vasishtha has to finally enter the Sushumna nadi of Rama to disturb his samadhi and bring him back to senses. After that, Rama knows who he is.Rama and Krishna were both avataras of Vishnu. Krishna knew it from the beginning. In the case of Rama, sages like Vasishtha, Vishwamitra knew it even before Rama's birth, but Rama himself did not know it in the beginning. But he too knew it later.However, Krishna had complete mastery over the duality, while Rama did not. Rama had to wade the dual world like normal people. Krishna could do any manipulation of the dual world that he wanted.Best regards,Narasimha------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homamDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpanaSpirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdomFree Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.orgSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - - "rajarshi14" <rajarshi14 (AT) (DOT) co.in><>Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:45 AM Rama as God> Namaste>> In a discussion with another very learned individual, I was told this > following statement:>> "Valmiki had projected Ram as a person who tried his level best to live by > principles. He was still not God. Or, at least, he never realised he was > an avatar (one who undergoes an 'avataran' (coming down to earth to serve > a specific purpose of the society of his time).>> It was latter day writers like Tulsidas who conferred godhood on Ram.">> Is this true? Is there any verse in the original Valmiki Ramayana which > shows divinity (avatarahood) on Rama?>> -Regards> Rajarshi Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with India Travel Click here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 Namaste Rajarshiji, > As a corollary, can the path shown by Lord Rama be equated to the path of Dakshina Kali and that of Krishna as Vama Kali. Actually, Krishna is equated to Kali, as per the Munda Mala Tantra. Krishna's beeja akshara is Kleem while Kali's beeja akshara is Kreem. Whereas, Rama is equated to Taaraa, the Raama Naama is called the Taaraka mantra. Taaraa means crossing and she is the one who helps us cross-over from the material plane to the spiritual plane. Raama also had to cross the ocean to get Sita. Esoterically, Raama is the soul, Lakshmana is the single-pointed concentration (lakshya-mana) and Sita is the Kundalini Shakti. Raavana who stands for our material desires steals Sita and takes her away to Lanka, stands for how our material desires makes the kundalini remain in the mooladhara. The beeja akshara of Mooladhaara is Lam, which is what Lanka is. Munda Maala tantra has other parallels (equating Das Mahaavidya & Das Avataara) too, some of which makes sense and some of them dont. Hope this helps. Thanks Narayan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 Hello, In one of the biographies (most likely Sri Ramakrishna and his divine play), I remember reading that Sri Ramakrishna mentions Rama is 3/4th avatara and Krishna is full avatara. -Vasudev --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr wrote: > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr > Re: Rama as God > > Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 8:35 PM > Namaste, > > In the episodes before Rama's birth, Valmiki clearly > portrays him as an > avatara of Vishnu. > > In " Yoga Vaasishtham " , also written by Valmiki, Rama > becomes depressed. > Vasishtha, in the presence of Vishwamitra and other rishis > and gods, teaches > self-knowledge to Rama. Vasishtha reveals the true nature > of Rama then and > Rama remains in samadhi. Vasishtha has to finally enter the > Sushumna nadi of > Rama to disturb his samadhi and bring him back to senses. > After that, Rama > knows who he is. > > Rama and Krishna were both avataras of Vishnu. Krishna knew > it from the > beginning. In the case of Rama, sages like Vasishtha, > Vishwamitra knew it > even before Rama's birth, but Rama himself did not know it > in the beginning. > But he too knew it later. > > However, Krishna had complete mastery over the duality, > while Rama did not. > Rama had to wade the dual world like normal people. Krishna > could do any > manipulation of the dual world that he wanted. > > Best regards, > Narasimha > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > > - > " rajarshi14 " <rajarshi14 > > Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:45 AM > Rama as God > > > > Namaste > > > > In a discussion with another very learned individual, > I was told this > > following statement: > > > > " Valmiki had projected Ram as a person who tried his > level best to live by > > principles. He was still not God. Or, at least, he > never realised he was > > an avatar (one who undergoes an 'avataran' (coming > down to earth to serve > > a specific purpose of the society of his time). > > > > It was latter day writers like Tulsidas who conferred > godhood on Ram. " > > > > Is this true? Is there any verse in the original > Valmiki Ramayana which > > shows divinity (avatarahood) on Rama? > > > > -Regards > > Rajarshi > > > > --- > > || Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih || > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 Namaste Rajarshi, Parasara equates Rama incarnation to Sun and Krishna incarnation to Moon. However, do not apply the Pingala-Ida (right-left) division in this case. When you have a two-fold division, then the solar/lunar or right/left or Pingala/Ida or devatas/pitris division comes into play. In the case of Vishnu's incarnation, there aren't just two. We have nine incarnations. So we are talking about a nine-fold division in this mapping. So we have all the nine planets in play. This has nothing to do with left or right channels. * * * Within each person, Sun represents the soul, Moon represents the mind, Mars represents the energy and initiative, Mercury represents the learning ability, Jupiter represents the intellect, wisdom and judgment, Venus represents the spirit of enjoyment and bliss, Saturn represents the spirit of hard work or discipline. Vishnu represents pure sattwa. Rama is Vishnu's incarnation with Sun's nature. Krishna is Vishnu's incarnation with Moon's nature. Sun being the soul, Rama is from the soul principle of the cosmic being. Moon being the mind, Krishna is from the mind principle of the cosmic being. * * * Dear Utpal, > I didn't understand above. Lord Rama was a Vishnu Avataar and proclaimed by our scriptures as a 'Purnaavataar'.> > how come then you state difference between their level of evolution? An arrow, a simple chain and a necklace with an elaborate work may all be made from the same 22 caret gold. You may call an object made with 22 caret gold to be purer than an object made with 14 caret gold. But if the arrow, chain and beautiful necklace are all made of 22 caret gold, they are all equally pure. Simply because the necklace required more work, it is nore purer. Similarly, Rama and Krishna were both from Vishnu - pure sattwa. One is not more "evolved" than the other. They just served different purposes (like the arrow and necklace made of the same 22 pure gold) and hence had different qualities. Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over duality. Best regards,NarasimhaDo a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homamDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpanaSpirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.orgSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org - rajarshi nandy Thursday, June 04, 2009 1:57 AM Re: Re: Rama as God Dear Narasmihaji Thank you for the reference to the Yoga Vashistam. Plus the Vishnu Puran also mentiones Lord Rama as an avatar. Though I could not convince the person I was discussing with, one thing sturck me as interesting. Lord Rama is the Surya Vamshi. Surya related to the right channel, the path of logic and discrimination and structure. This you had explanied in your mail on Dakshina Kali. Where as Lord Krishna was a Chandra Vamshi, of the lunar channel of intution/emotion etc. As a corollary, can the path shown by Lord Rama be equated to the path of Dakshina Kali and that of Krishna as Vama Kali. -Regards Rajarshi --- On Thu, 4/6/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr wrote: Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr Re: Rama as God Date: Thursday, 4 June, 2009, 9:05 AM Namaste,In the episodes before Rama's birth, Valmiki clearly portrays him as an avatara of Vishnu.In "Yoga Vaasishtham" , also written by Valmiki, Rama becomes depressed. Vasishtha, in the presence of Vishwamitra and other rishis and gods, teaches self-knowledge to Rama. Vasishtha reveals the true nature of Rama then and Rama remains in samadhi. Vasishtha has to finally enter the Sushumna nadi of Rama to disturb his samadhi and bring him back to senses. After that, Rama knows who he is.Rama and Krishna were both avataras of Vishnu. Krishna knew it from the beginning. In the case of Rama, sages like Vasishtha, Vishwamitra knew it even before Rama's birth, but Rama himself did not know it in the beginning. But he too knew it later.However, Krishna had complete mastery over the duality, while Rama did not. Rama had to wade the dual world like normal people. Krishna could do any manipulation of the dual world that he wanted.Best regards,Narasimha------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homamDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpanaSpirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdomFree Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.orgSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - - "rajarshi14" <rajarshi14 (AT) (DOT) co.in><>Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:45 AM Rama as God> Namaste>> In a discussion with another very learned individual, I was told this > following statement:>> "Valmiki had projected Ram as a person who tried his level best to live by > principles. He was still not God. Or, at least, he never realised he was > an avatar (one who undergoes an 'avataran' (coming down to earth to serve > a specific purpose of the society of his time).>> It was latter day writers like Tulsidas who conferred godhood on Ram.">> Is this true? Is there any verse in the original Valmiki Ramayana which > shows divinity (avatarahood) on Rama?>> -Regards> Rajarshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 Dear Narayan, Todala tantra also maps Vishnu's ten incarnations to Dasa maha vidyas. Krishna is associated with Kaali there too. However, Shiva teaches Parvati in Todala tantra that Maatangi is Rama. Can you give the full list of mapping as given in Munda maalaa tantra? Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org - " naaraayana_iyer " <narayan.iyer Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:07 AM Re: Rama as God > Namaste Rajarshiji, > >> As a corollary, can the path shown by Lord Rama be equated to the path of >> Dakshina Kali and that of Krishna as Vama Kali. > > Actually, Krishna is equated to Kali, as per the Munda Mala Tantra. > Krishna's beeja akshara is Kleem while Kali's beeja akshara is Kreem. > Whereas, Rama is equated to Taaraa, the Raama Naama is called the Taaraka > mantra. Taaraa means crossing and she is the one who helps us cross-over > from the material plane to the spiritual plane. Raama also had to cross > the ocean to get Sita. Esoterically, Raama is the soul, Lakshmana is the > single-pointed concentration (lakshya-mana) and Sita is the Kundalini > Shakti. Raavana who stands for our material desires steals Sita and takes > her away to Lanka, stands for how our material desires makes the kundalini > remain in the mooladhara. The beeja akshara of Mooladhaara is Lam, which > is what Lanka is. > > Munda Maala tantra has other parallels (equating Das Mahaavidya & Das > Avataara) too, some of which makes sense and some of them dont. > > Hope this helps. > > Thanks > Narayan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 Narasimha Garu, >Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind >principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the >duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. >Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over >duality. I fully appreciate your explanation here. however i still think that Lord Rama was capable of manipulating realm of Maya (Miracle worker) like Lord Krishna BUT the role assumed by him in that incarnation was of that 'Maryaada Purshottam' and that is why he demonstrated 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. But i do not think that he had not Mastered the Duality. where as Krishna didn't bound himself in any boundry whatsoever. *** Is it fruitful/useful in any ways to extend philosophies like comparing Krishna & Kali, Rama and Tara or Matangi. somehow i don't feel like reading and getting in to exercise of reading and imagine such concepts. no offense to any body but it is my question to myself. Narasimha garu ! why i am not inclined to such things. apologise if my thinking is wrong here. Warm Regards, Utpal , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr wrote: > > Namaste Rajarshi, > > Parasara equates Rama incarnation to Sun and Krishna incarnation to Moon. However, do not apply the Pingala-Ida (right-left) division in this case. When you have a two-fold division, then the solar/lunar or right/left or Pingala/Ida or devatas/pitris division comes into play. > > In the case of Vishnu's incarnation, there aren't just two. We have nine incarnations. So we are talking about a nine-fold division in this mapping. So we have all the nine planets in play. This has nothing to do with left or right channels. > > * * * > > Within each person, Sun represents the soul, Moon represents the mind, Mars represents the energy and initiative, Mercury represents the learning ability, Jupiter represents the intellect, wisdom and judgment, Venus represents the spirit of enjoyment and bliss, Saturn represents the spirit of hard work or discipline. > > Vishnu represents pure sattwa. Rama is Vishnu's incarnation with Sun's nature. Krishna is Vishnu's incarnation with Moon's nature. Sun being the soul, Rama is from the soul principle of the cosmic being. Moon being the mind, Krishna is from the mind principle of the cosmic being. > > * * * > > Dear Utpal, > > > I didn't understand above. Lord Rama was a Vishnu Avataar and proclaimed by our scriptures as a 'Purnaavataar'. > > > > how come then you state difference between their level of evolution? > > An arrow, a simple chain and a necklace with an elaborate work may all be made from the same 22 caret gold. You may call an object made with 22 caret gold to be purer than an object made with 14 caret gold. But if the arrow, chain and beautiful necklace are all made of 22 caret gold, they are all equally pure. Simply because the necklace required more work, it is nore purer. > > Similarly, Rama and Krishna were both from Vishnu - pure sattwa. One is not more " evolved " than the other. They just served different purposes (like the arrow and necklace made of the same 22 pure gold) and hence had different qualities. > > Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over duality. > > Best regards, > Narasimha > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > - > rajarshi nandy > > Thursday, June 04, 2009 1:57 AM > Re: Re: Rama as God > > Dear Narasmihaji > > Thank you for the reference to the Yoga Vashistam. Plus the Vishnu Puran also mentiones Lord Rama as an avatar. > > Though I could not convince the person I was discussing with, one thing sturck me as interesting. > > Lord Rama is the Surya Vamshi. Surya related to the right channel, the path of logic and discrimination and structure. This you had explanied in your mail on Dakshina Kali. > > Where as Lord Krishna was a Chandra Vamshi, of the lunar channel of intution/emotion etc. > As a corollary, can the path shown by Lord Rama be equated to the path of Dakshina Kali and that of Krishna as Vama Kali. > > -Regards > Rajarshi > > --- On Thu, 4/6/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr wrote: > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr > Re: Rama as God > > Thursday, 4 June, 2009, 9:05 AM > > > Namaste, > > In the episodes before Rama's birth, Valmiki clearly portrays him as an > avatara of Vishnu. > > In " Yoga Vaasishtham " , also written by Valmiki, Rama becomes depressed. > Vasishtha, in the presence of Vishwamitra and other rishis and gods, teaches > self-knowledge to Rama. Vasishtha reveals the true nature of Rama then and > Rama remains in samadhi. Vasishtha has to finally enter the Sushumna nadi of > Rama to disturb his samadhi and bring him back to senses. After that, Rama > knows who he is. > > Rama and Krishna were both avataras of Vishnu. Krishna knew it from the > beginning. In the case of Rama, sages like Vasishtha, Vishwamitra knew it > even before Rama's birth, but Rama himself did not know it in the beginning. > But he too knew it later. > > However, Krishna had complete mastery over the duality, while Rama did not. > Rama had to wade the dual world like normal people. Krishna could do any > manipulation of the dual world that he wanted. > > Best regards, > Narasimha > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > - > " rajarshi14 " <rajarshi14 (AT) (DOT) co.in> > <> > Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:45 AM > Rama as God > > > Namaste > > > > In a discussion with another very learned individual, I was told this > > following statement: > > > > " Valmiki had projected Ram as a person who tried his level best to live by > > principles. He was still not God. Or, at least, he never realised he was > > an avatar (one who undergoes an 'avataran' (coming down to earth to serve > > a specific purpose of the society of his time). > > > > It was latter day writers like Tulsidas who conferred godhood on Ram. " > > > > Is this true? Is there any verse in the original Valmiki Ramayana which > > shows divinity (avatarahood) on Rama? > > > > -Regards > > Rajarshi > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 Namaste Utpalji 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. I have one issue with Lord Rama. The way he killed Bali. That indicates that the means is better than the end, which defeats the basic idealism of the Ramayana. This can be explained if we conclude that at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at that time and acted in the mould of any other human being. -Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Fri, 5/6/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak wrote: utpal pathak <vedic_pathak Re: Rama as God Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 12:03 PM Narasimha Garu,>Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind >principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the >duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. >Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over >duality.I fully appreciate your explanation here. however i still think that Lord Rama was capable of manipulating realm of Maya (Miracle worker) like Lord Krishna BUT the role assumed by him in that incarnation was of that 'Maryaada Purshottam' and that is why he demonstrated 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. But i do not think that he had not Mastered the Duality. where as Krishna didn't bound himself in any boundry whatsoever.***Is it fruitful/useful in any ways to extend philosophies like comparing Krishna & Kali, Rama and Tara or Matangi. somehow i don't feel like reading and getting in to exercise of reading and imagine such concepts. no offense to any body but it is my question to myself. Narasimha garu ! why i am not inclined to such things.apologise if my thinking is wrong here.Warm Regards,Utpal , "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr wrote:>> Namaste Rajarshi,> > Parasara equates Rama incarnation to Sun and Krishna incarnation to Moon. However, do not apply the Pingala-Ida (right-left) division in this case. When you have a two-fold division, then the solar/lunar or right/left or Pingala/Ida or devatas/pitris division comes into play.> > In the case of Vishnu's incarnation, there aren't just two. We have nine incarnations. So we are talking about a nine-fold division in this mapping. So we have all the nine planets in play. This has nothing to do with left or right channels.> > * * *> > Within each person, Sun represents the soul, Moon represents the mind, Mars represents the energy and initiative, Mercury represents the learning ability, Jupiter represents the intellect, wisdom and judgment, Venus represents the spirit of enjoyment and bliss, Saturn represents the spirit of hard work or discipline.> > Vishnu represents pure sattwa. Rama is Vishnu's incarnation with Sun's nature. Krishna is Vishnu's incarnation with Moon's nature. Sun being the soul, Rama is from the soul principle of the cosmic being. Moon being the mind, Krishna is from the mind principle of the cosmic being.> > * * *> > Dear Utpal,> > > I didn't understand above. Lord Rama was a Vishnu Avataar and proclaimed by our scriptures as a 'Purnaavataar' .> > > > how come then you state difference between their level of evolution?> > An arrow, a simple chain and a necklace with an elaborate work may all be made from the same 22 caret gold. You may call an object made with 22 caret gold to be purer than an object made with 14 caret gold. But if the arrow, chain and beautiful necklace are all made of 22 caret gold, they are all equally pure. Simply because the necklace required more work, it is nore purer.> > Similarly, Rama and Krishna were both from Vishnu - pure sattwa. One is not more "evolved" than the other. They just served different purposes (like the arrow and necklace made of the same 22 pure gold) and hence had different qualities.> > Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over duality.> > Best regards,> Narasimha> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > - > rajarshi nandy > > Thursday, June 04, 2009 1:57 AM> Re: Re: Rama as God> > Dear Narasmihaji> > Thank you for the reference to the Yoga Vashistam. Plus the Vishnu Puran also mentiones Lord Rama as an avatar. > > Though I could not convince the person I was discussing with, one thing sturck me as interesting.> > Lord Rama is the Surya Vamshi. Surya related to the right channel, the path of logic and discrimination and structure. This you had explanied in your mail on Dakshina Kali.> > Where as Lord Krishna was a Chandra Vamshi, of the lunar channel of intution/emotion etc. > As a corollary, can the path shown by Lord Rama be equated to the path of Dakshina Kali and that of Krishna as Vama Kali.> > -Regards> Rajarshi> > --- On Thu, 4/6/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr wrote:> > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr> Re: Rama as God> > Thursday, 4 June, 2009, 9:05 AM> > > Namaste,> > In the episodes before Rama's birth, Valmiki clearly portrays him as an > avatara of Vishnu.> > In "Yoga Vaasishtham" , also written by Valmiki, Rama becomes depressed. > Vasishtha, in the presence of Vishwamitra and other rishis and gods, teaches > self-knowledge to Rama. Vasishtha reveals the true nature of Rama then and > Rama remains in samadhi. Vasishtha has to finally enter the Sushumna nadi of > Rama to disturb his samadhi and bring him back to senses. After that, Rama > knows who he is.> > Rama and Krishna were both avataras of Vishnu. Krishna knew it from the > beginning. In the case of Rama, sages like Vasishtha, Vishwamitra knew it > even before Rama's birth, but Rama himself did not know it in the beginning. > But he too knew it later.> > However, Krishna had complete mastery over the duality, while Rama did not. > Rama had to wade the dual world like normal people. Krishna could do any > manipulation of the dual world that he wanted.> > Best regards,> Narasimha> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > - > "rajarshi14" <rajarshi14@ . co.in>> <>> Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:45 AM> Rama as God> > > Namaste> >> > In a discussion with another very learned individual, I was told this > > following statement:> >> > "Valmiki had projected Ram as a person who tried his level best to live by > > principles. He was still not God. Or, at least, he never realised he was > > an avatar (one who undergoes an 'avataran' (coming down to earth to serve > > a specific purpose of the society of his time).> >> > It was latter day writers like Tulsidas who conferred godhood on Ram."> >> > Is this true? Is there any verse in the original Valmiki Ramayana which > > shows divinity (avatarahood) on Rama?> >> > -Regards> > Rajarshi> Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with India Travel Click here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 Namaste Rajarshi, >at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at >that time and acted in the mould of any other human being. If you go through Yoga Vaasishtha, in the concluding part it is mentioned that Raama went in to Samadhi and Vasishtha Rishi then declares in front of the whole gathering that he is the Incarnation of all pervading Vishnu. I understand fully when Narasimha says that Rama realised his true nature later (During Vasishtha's discourse) and not from the birth. but once he realised, then he realised. i fail to appreciate your argument that he forgotten his true nature during some course of events and acted against dharma or Maryaada. Bali's episode is one amongst some more when Lors Rama's Maryaada and conduct is questioned. he is being criticised by some for Marich event, Sita's Agniparikha, Foresaking of Sita Mata etc... But i strongly feel that there will be much more depth in all that which we are not aware and events are just on the surface, which generally look at and form our opinions. however people also provide counter arguments to justify all the above events for which Rama is questioned. like when you mentioned Vaali's killing, i may say that to kill Vaali, there was no option but to Kill him the way he was killed. and if we see history of Vaali then his conduct was against Dharma towards his brother. However Rama also took the brunt of that Karma on himself in the later life during Krishna Incarnation. BUT what is the use of all these arguments? I have seen that (from my experience in Astrology as well as other areas) they never end. you said " we conclude that at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at that time " . i am sorry Rajarshi, but i am sure we can never conclude especially in case of Realised souls and when they are incarnations of Lord Vishnu. plese correct me if my understanding is wrong. Belated Happy birthday. Warm Regards, Utpal , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > > Namaste Utpalji > > 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. > > I have one issue with Lord Rama. The way he killed Bali. That indicates that the means is better than the end, which defeats the basic idealism of the Ramayana. This can be explained if we conclude that at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at that time and acted in the mould of any other human being. > > -Regards > Rajarshi > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak wrote: > > > utpal pathak <vedic_pathak > Re: Rama as God > > Friday, 5 June, 2009, 12:03 PM > > Narasimha Garu, > > >Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind >principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the >duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. >Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over >duality. > > I fully appreciate your explanation here. however i still think that Lord Rama was capable of manipulating realm of Maya (Miracle worker) like Lord Krishna BUT the role assumed by him in that incarnation was of that 'Maryaada Purshottam' and that is why he demonstrated 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. But i do not think that he had not Mastered the Duality. where as Krishna didn't bound himself in any boundry whatsoever. > > *** > Is it fruitful/useful in any ways to extend philosophies like comparing Krishna & Kali, Rama and Tara or Matangi. somehow i don't feel like reading and getting in to exercise of reading and imagine such concepts. no offense to any body but it is my question to myself. Narasimha garu ! why i am not inclined to such things. > > apologise if my thinking is wrong here. > > Warm Regards, > > Utpal > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > Namaste Rajarshi, > > > > Parasara equates Rama incarnation to Sun and Krishna incarnation to Moon. However, do not apply the Pingala-Ida (right-left) division in this case. When you have a two-fold division, then the solar/lunar or right/left or Pingala/Ida or devatas/pitris division comes into play. > > > > In the case of Vishnu's incarnation, there aren't just two. We have nine incarnations. So we are talking about a nine-fold division in this mapping. So we have all the nine planets in play. This has nothing to do with left or right channels. > > > > * * * > > > > Within each person, Sun represents the soul, Moon represents the mind, Mars represents the energy and initiative, Mercury represents the learning ability, Jupiter represents the intellect, wisdom and judgment, Venus represents the spirit of enjoyment and bliss, Saturn represents the spirit of hard work or discipline. > > > > Vishnu represents pure sattwa. Rama is Vishnu's incarnation with Sun's nature. Krishna is Vishnu's incarnation with Moon's nature. Sun being the soul, Rama is from the soul principle of the cosmic being. Moon being the mind, Krishna is from the mind principle of the cosmic being. > > > > * * * > > > > Dear Utpal, > > > > > I didn't understand above. Lord Rama was a Vishnu Avataar and proclaimed by our scriptures as a 'Purnaavataar' . > > > > > > how come then you state difference between their level of evolution? > > > > An arrow, a simple chain and a necklace with an elaborate work may all be made from the same 22 caret gold. You may call an object made with 22 caret gold to be purer than an object made with 14 caret gold. But if the arrow, chain and beautiful necklace are all made of 22 caret gold, they are all equally pure. Simply because the necklace required more work, it is nore purer. > > > > Similarly, Rama and Krishna were both from Vishnu - pure sattwa. One is not more " evolved " than the other. They just served different purposes (like the arrow and necklace made of the same 22 pure gold) and hence had different qualities. > > > > Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over duality. > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > - > > rajarshi nandy > > > > Thursday, June 04, 2009 1:57 AM > > Re: Re: Rama as God > > > > Dear Narasmihaji > > > > Thank you for the reference to the Yoga Vashistam. Plus the Vishnu Puran also mentiones Lord Rama as an avatar. > > > > Though I could not convince the person I was discussing with, one thing sturck me as interesting. > > > > Lord Rama is the Surya Vamshi. Surya related to the right channel, the path of logic and discrimination and structure. This you had explanied in your mail on Dakshina Kali. > > > > Where as Lord Krishna was a Chandra Vamshi, of the lunar channel of intution/emotion etc. > > As a corollary, can the path shown by Lord Rama be equated to the path of Dakshina Kali and that of Krishna as Vama Kali. > > > > -Regards > > Rajarshi > > > > --- On Thu, 4/6/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> > > Re: Rama as God > > > > Thursday, 4 June, 2009, 9:05 AM > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > In the episodes before Rama's birth, Valmiki clearly portrays him as an > > avatara of Vishnu. > > > > In " Yoga Vaasishtham " , also written by Valmiki, Rama becomes depressed. > > Vasishtha, in the presence of Vishwamitra and other rishis and gods, teaches > > self-knowledge to Rama. Vasishtha reveals the true nature of Rama then and > > Rama remains in samadhi. Vasishtha has to finally enter the Sushumna nadi of > > Rama to disturb his samadhi and bring him back to senses. After that, Rama > > knows who he is. > > > > Rama and Krishna were both avataras of Vishnu. Krishna knew it from the > > beginning. In the case of Rama, sages like Vasishtha, Vishwamitra knew it > > even before Rama's birth, but Rama himself did not know it in the beginning. > > But he too knew it later. > > > > However, Krishna had complete mastery over the duality, while Rama did not. > > Rama had to wade the dual world like normal people. Krishna could do any > > manipulation of the dual world that he wanted. > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > - > > " rajarshi14 " <rajarshi14@ . co.in> > > <> > > Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:45 AM > > Rama as God > > > > > Namaste > > > > > > In a discussion with another very learned individual, I was told this > > > following statement: > > > > > > " Valmiki had projected Ram as a person who tried his level best to live by > > > principles. He was still not God. Or, at least, he never realised he was > > > an avatar (one who undergoes an 'avataran' (coming down to earth to serve > > > a specific purpose of the society of his time). > > > > > > It was latter day writers like Tulsidas who conferred godhood on Ram. " > > > > > > Is this true? Is there any verse in the original Valmiki Ramayana which > > > shows divinity (avatarahood) on Rama? > > > > > > -Regards > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with India Travel http://in.travel./ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 Namaste Utpalji A very (belated) happy birth day to you too! - But i strongly feel that there will be much more depth in all that which we are not aware and events are just on the surface, which generally look at and form our opinions. I entirely agree with this proposition.I was merely looking and trying to analysing the epic from the scriptural point of view as it appears. And yes, these cannot have a solution, but if we discuss this with an open mind, all can gain from this. I am sure you would agree with this Utpalji. Let me put down some thoughts. I find idealism to be the central theme of Ramayana. In Mahabharata by comparison, aligning oneself with a higher Dharma beyond lesser dharmas is the aim. Being a master of all possible celestial weapons, Rama could have challenged Bali in a direct duel and killed him straight; for, the boon on Bali -- that he would automatically get half the strength of his opponent in course of any duel -- could not have affected the efficacy of celestial weapons. Rama could also have... (1) dried the Indian Ocean on the very first day when it did not give him way to cross over to Lanka; instead he invoked Shiva and prayed to the sea god till his patience couldn't sustain more;(2) killed Ravana with a Brahmastra right from the day and right from the spot where he stood at the time of coming to know who abducted Sita, without needing to get into a war. He had in his arsenal what can be deemed that era's version of an IRBM (Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile)!But he did none of the above because he thought there was a certain way established by dharma to go about each act. This principle was breached on three occasions. Killing of Bali in that manner was one IMO. Considering the above, it does not make sense to me why Rama killed Bali in that manner. -Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Fri, 5/6/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak wrote: utpal pathak <vedic_pathak Re: Rama as God Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 1:08 PM Namaste Rajarshi,>at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at >that time and acted in the mould of any other human being.If you go through Yoga Vaasishtha, in the concluding part it is mentioned that Raama went in to Samadhi and Vasishtha Rishi then declares in front of the whole gathering that he is the Incarnation of all pervading Vishnu.I understand fully when Narasimha says that Rama realised his true nature later (During Vasishtha's discourse) and not from the birth. but once he realised, then he realised. i fail to appreciate your argument that he forgotten his true nature during some course of events and acted against dharma or Maryaada. Bali's episode is one amongst some more when Lors Rama's Maryaada and conduct is questioned. he is being criticised by some for Marich event, Sita's Agniparikha, Foresaking of Sita Mata etc...But i strongly feel that there will be much more depth in all that which we are not aware and events are just on the surface, which generally look at and form our opinions. however people also provide counter arguments to justify all the above events for which Rama is questioned. like when you mentioned Vaali's killing, i may say that to kill Vaali, there was no option but to Kill him the way he was killed. and if we see history of Vaali then his conduct was against Dharma towards his brother. However Rama also took the brunt of that Karma on himself in the later life during Krishna Incarnation. BUT what is the use of all these arguments? I have seen that (from my experience in Astrology as well as other areas) they never end.you said "we conclude that at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at that time". i am sorry Rajarshi, but i am sure we can never conclude especially in case of Realised souls and when they are incarnations of Lord Vishnu.plese correct me if my understanding is wrong.Belated Happy birthday.Warm Regards,Utpal , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:>> Namaste Utpalji> > 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. > > I have one issue with Lord Rama. The way he killed Bali. That indicates that the means is better than the end, which defeats the basic idealism of the Ramayana. This can be explained if we conclude that at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at that time and acted in the mould of any other human being. > > -Regards> Rajarshi> > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote:> > > utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...>> Re: Rama as God> > Friday, 5 June, 2009, 12:03 PM> > > > > > > > > Narasimha Garu,> > >Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind >principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the >duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. >Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over >duality.> > I fully appreciate your explanation here. however i still think that Lord Rama was capable of manipulating realm of Maya (Miracle worker) like Lord Krishna BUT the role assumed by him in that incarnation was of that 'Maryaada Purshottam' and that is why he demonstrated 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. But i do not think that he had not Mastered the Duality. where as Krishna didn't bound himself in any boundry whatsoever.> > ***> Is it fruitful/useful in any ways to extend philosophies like comparing Krishna & Kali, Rama and Tara or Matangi. somehow i don't feel like reading and getting in to exercise of reading and imagine such concepts. no offense to any body but it is my question to myself. Narasimha garu ! why i am not inclined to such things.> > apologise if my thinking is wrong here.> > Warm Regards,> > Utpal > > , "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@> wrote:> >> > Namaste Rajarshi,> > > > Parasara equates Rama incarnation to Sun and Krishna incarnation to Moon. However, do not apply the Pingala-Ida (right-left) division in this case. When you have a two-fold division, then the solar/lunar or right/left or Pingala/Ida or devatas/pitris division comes into play.> > > > In the case of Vishnu's incarnation, there aren't just two. We have nine incarnations. So we are talking about a nine-fold division in this mapping. So we have all the nine planets in play. This has nothing to do with left or right channels.> > > > * * *> > > > Within each person, Sun represents the soul, Moon represents the mind, Mars represents the energy and initiative, Mercury represents the learning ability, Jupiter represents the intellect, wisdom and judgment, Venus represents the spirit of enjoyment and bliss, Saturn represents the spirit of hard work or discipline.> > > > Vishnu represents pure sattwa. Rama is Vishnu's incarnation with Sun's nature. Krishna is Vishnu's incarnation with Moon's nature. Sun being the soul, Rama is from the soul principle of the cosmic being. Moon being the mind, Krishna is from the mind principle of the cosmic being.> > > > * * *> > > > Dear Utpal,> > > > > I didn't understand above. Lord Rama was a Vishnu Avataar and proclaimed by our scriptures as a 'Purnaavataar' .> > > > > > how come then you state difference between their level of evolution?> > > > An arrow, a simple chain and a necklace with an elaborate work may all be made from the same 22 caret gold. You may call an object made with 22 caret gold to be purer than an object made with 14 caret gold. But if the arrow, chain and beautiful necklace are all made of 22 caret gold, they are all equally pure. Simply because the necklace required more work, it is nore purer.> > > > Similarly, Rama and Krishna were both from Vishnu - pure sattwa. One is not more "evolved" than the other. They just served different purposes (like the arrow and necklace made of the same 22 pure gold) and hence had different qualities.> > > > Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over duality.> > > > Best regards,> > Narasimha> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > - > > rajarshi nandy > > > > Thursday, June 04, 2009 1:57 AM> > Re: Re: Rama as God> > > > Dear Narasmihaji> > > > Thank you for the reference to the Yoga Vashistam. Plus the Vishnu Puran also mentiones Lord Rama as an avatar. > > > > Though I could not convince the person I was discussing with, one thing sturck me as interesting.> > > > Lord Rama is the Surya Vamshi. Surya related to the right channel, the path of logic and discrimination and structure. This you had explanied in your mail on Dakshina Kali.> > > > Where as Lord Krishna was a Chandra Vamshi, of the lunar channel of intution/emotion etc. > > As a corollary, can the path shown by Lord Rama be equated to the path of Dakshina Kali and that of Krishna as Vama Kali.> > > > -Regards> > Rajarshi> > > > --- On Thu, 4/6/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> wrote:> > > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@>> > Re: Rama as God> > > > Thursday, 4 June, 2009, 9:05 AM> > > > > > Namaste,> > > > In the episodes before Rama's birth, Valmiki clearly portrays him as an > > avatara of Vishnu.> > > > In "Yoga Vaasishtham" , also written by Valmiki, Rama becomes depressed. > > Vasishtha, in the presence of Vishwamitra and other rishis and gods, teaches > > self-knowledge to Rama. Vasishtha reveals the true nature of Rama then and > > Rama remains in samadhi. Vasishtha has to finally enter the Sushumna nadi of > > Rama to disturb his samadhi and bring him back to senses. After that, Rama > > knows who he is.> > > > Rama and Krishna were both avataras of Vishnu. Krishna knew it from the > > beginning. In the case of Rama, sages like Vasishtha, Vishwamitra knew it > > even before Rama's birth, but Rama himself did not know it in the beginning. > > But he too knew it later.> > > > However, Krishna had complete mastery over the duality, while Rama did not. > > Rama had to wade the dual world like normal people. Krishna could do any > > manipulation of the dual world that he wanted.> > > > Best regards,> > Narasimha> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > - > > "rajarshi14" <rajarshi14@ . co.in>> > <>> > Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:45 AM> > Rama as God> > > > > Namaste> > >> > > In a discussion with another very learned individual, I was told this > > > following statement:> > >> > > "Valmiki had projected Ram as a person who tried his level best to live by > > > principles. He was still not God. Or, at least, he never realised he was > > > an avatar (one who undergoes an 'avataran' (coming down to earth to serve > > > a specific purpose of the society of his time).> > >> > > It was latter day writers like Tulsidas who conferred godhood on Ram."> > >> > > Is this true? Is there any verse in the original Valmiki Ramayana which > > > shows divinity (avatarahood) on Rama?> > >> > > -Regards> > > Rajarshi> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with India Travel http://in.travel. /> Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 Rajarshi, Rama gives an explanation to Vali who asks the same question and Vali gets convinced. How ever, going by a story I read, Angada, who is son of Vali takes birth as a hunter in Dwaparayuga and mistakes Krishna's leg fingers to be ears of a deer and shoots an arrow with which Krishna concludes his avataram. Killing an animal from behind is allowed and Rama equates Vali to an animal for his behaviour to his brother. I disagree that Rama was unaware of his deviness. In fact, during the war with Ravana, on a specific day he tell his men " Only I and Siva can shower arrows in this manner " . If he were to behave like an ordinary man, he can not say he knew Siva's amstery with bow & arrow. How can an ordinary man bestow boon of eternal life to others? (Hanuman and Jambavantha). Rama also grants a boon to Jambavantha that he would fight him in next birth. Rama, no doubt knew who he was. In another story, Rama tells Chandrasena that he would marry her in his next birth as Krishna (and Chandrasena is Satyabhama). So, many instances where he gives clear indications that he knew he is no ordinary man. How ever, as Utpal said earlier, he lived a life as an ordinary man. Best regards, Vijay , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > > Namaste Utpalji > > 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. > > I have one issue with Lord Rama. The way he killed Bali. That indicates that the means is better than the end, which defeats the basic idealism of the Ramayana. This can be explained if we conclude that at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at that time and acted in the mould of any other human being. > > -Regards > Rajarshi > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak wrote: > > > utpal pathak <vedic_pathak > Re: Rama as God > > Friday, 5 June, 2009, 12:03 PM > > Narasimha Garu, > > >Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind >principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the >duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. >Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over >duality. > > I fully appreciate your explanation here. however i still think that Lord Rama was capable of manipulating realm of Maya (Miracle worker) like Lord Krishna BUT the role assumed by him in that incarnation was of that 'Maryaada Purshottam' and that is why he demonstrated 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. But i do not think that he had not Mastered the Duality. where as Krishna didn't bound himself in any boundry whatsoever. > > *** > Is it fruitful/useful in any ways to extend philosophies like comparing Krishna & Kali, Rama and Tara or Matangi. somehow i don't feel like reading and getting in to exercise of reading and imagine such concepts. no offense to any body but it is my question to myself. Narasimha garu ! why i am not inclined to such things. > > apologise if my thinking is wrong here. > > Warm Regards, > > Utpal > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > Namaste Rajarshi, > > > > Parasara equates Rama incarnation to Sun and Krishna incarnation to Moon. However, do not apply the Pingala-Ida (right-left) division in this case. When you have a two-fold division, then the solar/lunar or right/left or Pingala/Ida or devatas/pitris division comes into play. > > > > In the case of Vishnu's incarnation, there aren't just two. We have nine incarnations. So we are talking about a nine-fold division in this mapping. So we have all the nine planets in play. This has nothing to do with left or right channels. > > > > * * * > > > > Within each person, Sun represents the soul, Moon represents the mind, Mars represents the energy and initiative, Mercury represents the learning ability, Jupiter represents the intellect, wisdom and judgment, Venus represents the spirit of enjoyment and bliss, Saturn represents the spirit of hard work or discipline. > > > > Vishnu represents pure sattwa. Rama is Vishnu's incarnation with Sun's nature. Krishna is Vishnu's incarnation with Moon's nature. Sun being the soul, Rama is from the soul principle of the cosmic being. Moon being the mind, Krishna is from the mind principle of the cosmic being. > > > > * * * > > > > Dear Utpal, > > > > > I didn't understand above. Lord Rama was a Vishnu Avataar and proclaimed by our scriptures as a 'Purnaavataar' . > > > > > > how come then you state difference between their level of evolution? > > > > An arrow, a simple chain and a necklace with an elaborate work may all be made from the same 22 caret gold. You may call an object made with 22 caret gold to be purer than an object made with 14 caret gold. But if the arrow, chain and beautiful necklace are all made of 22 caret gold, they are all equally pure. Simply because the necklace required more work, it is nore purer. > > > > Similarly, Rama and Krishna were both from Vishnu - pure sattwa. One is not more " evolved " than the other. They just served different purposes (like the arrow and necklace made of the same 22 pure gold) and hence had different qualities. > > > > Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over duality. > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > - > > rajarshi nandy > > > > Thursday, June 04, 2009 1:57 AM > > Re: Re: Rama as God > > > > Dear Narasmihaji > > > > Thank you for the reference to the Yoga Vashistam. Plus the Vishnu Puran also mentiones Lord Rama as an avatar. > > > > Though I could not convince the person I was discussing with, one thing sturck me as interesting. > > > > Lord Rama is the Surya Vamshi. Surya related to the right channel, the path of logic and discrimination and structure. This you had explanied in your mail on Dakshina Kali. > > > > Where as Lord Krishna was a Chandra Vamshi, of the lunar channel of intution/emotion etc. > > As a corollary, can the path shown by Lord Rama be equated to the path of Dakshina Kali and that of Krishna as Vama Kali. > > > > -Regards > > Rajarshi > > > > --- On Thu, 4/6/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> > > Re: Rama as God > > > > Thursday, 4 June, 2009, 9:05 AM > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > In the episodes before Rama's birth, Valmiki clearly portrays him as an > > avatara of Vishnu. > > > > In " Yoga Vaasishtham " , also written by Valmiki, Rama becomes depressed. > > Vasishtha, in the presence of Vishwamitra and other rishis and gods, teaches > > self-knowledge to Rama. Vasishtha reveals the true nature of Rama then and > > Rama remains in samadhi. Vasishtha has to finally enter the Sushumna nadi of > > Rama to disturb his samadhi and bring him back to senses. After that, Rama > > knows who he is. > > > > Rama and Krishna were both avataras of Vishnu. Krishna knew it from the > > beginning. In the case of Rama, sages like Vasishtha, Vishwamitra knew it > > even before Rama's birth, but Rama himself did not know it in the beginning. > > But he too knew it later. > > > > However, Krishna had complete mastery over the duality, while Rama did not. > > Rama had to wade the dual world like normal people. Krishna could do any > > manipulation of the dual world that he wanted. > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > - > > " rajarshi14 " <rajarshi14@ . co.in> > > <> > > Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:45 AM > > Rama as God > > > > > Namaste > > > > > > In a discussion with another very learned individual, I was told this > > > following statement: > > > > > > " Valmiki had projected Ram as a person who tried his level best to live by > > > principles. He was still not God. Or, at least, he never realised he was > > > an avatar (one who undergoes an 'avataran' (coming down to earth to serve > > > a specific purpose of the society of his time). > > > > > > It was latter day writers like Tulsidas who conferred godhood on Ram. " > > > > > > Is this true? Is there any verse in the original Valmiki Ramayana which > > > shows divinity (avatarahood) on Rama? > > > > > > -Regards > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with India Travel http://in.travel./ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 Rama could have perhaps killed Vali in a direct dual. How ever, Vali's style of fighting is hand-to-hand. So, the fight would not have been an equal one any way. Vali was a vanara king but behaved like an animal with out any vichakshana and deserved to be treated like an animal. Rama treated him like an animal. Rama was not afraid of what others will say about him. He was convinced Vali was equivalent to an animal and he treated him like one. Moral: No matter how reputed and great the person is, the person should be judged by his nature and behaviour. Best regards, Vijay , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > > Namaste Utpalji > > A very (belated) happy birth day to you too! - > > But i strongly feel that there will be much more depth in all that which we are not aware and events are just on the surface, which generally look at and form our opinions. > > I entirely agree with this proposition.I was merely looking and trying to analysing the epic from the scriptural point of view as it appears. And yes, these cannot have a solution, but if we discuss this with an open mind, all can gain from this. I am sure you would agree with this Utpalji. > > Let me put down some thoughts. > > I find idealism to be the central theme of Ramayana. In Mahabharata by comparison, aligning oneself with a higher Dharma beyond lesser dharmas is the aim. > > Being a master of all possible celestial weapons, Rama could have challenged Bali in a direct duel and killed him straight; for, the boon on Bali -- that he would automatically get half the strength of his opponent in course of any duel -- could not have affected the efficacy of celestial weapons. > > Rama could also have... > > (1) dried the Indian Ocean on the very first day when it did not give him way to cross over to Lanka; instead he invoked Shiva and prayed to the sea god till his patience couldn't sustain more; > > (2) killed Ravana with a Brahmastra right from the day and right from the spot where he stood at the time of coming to know who abducted Sita, without needing to get into a war. He had in his arsenal what can be deemed that era's version of an IRBM (Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile)! > > But he did none of the above because he thought there was a certain way established by dharma to go about each act. This principle was breached on three occasions. Killing of Bali in that manner was one IMO. > > Considering the above, it does not make sense to me why Rama killed Bali in that manner. > > -Regards > Rajarshi > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak wrote: > > > utpal pathak <vedic_pathak > Re: Rama as God > > Friday, 5 June, 2009, 1:08 PM > > Namaste Rajarshi, > > >at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at >that time and acted in the mould of any other human being. > > If you go through Yoga Vaasishtha, in the concluding part it is mentioned that Raama went in to Samadhi and Vasishtha Rishi then declares in front of the whole gathering that he is the Incarnation of all pervading Vishnu. > > I understand fully when Narasimha says that Rama realised his true nature later (During Vasishtha's discourse) and not from the birth. but once he realised, then he realised. i fail to appreciate your argument that he forgotten his true nature during some course of events and acted against dharma or Maryaada. Bali's episode is one amongst some more when Lors Rama's Maryaada and conduct is questioned. he is being criticised by some for Marich event, Sita's Agniparikha, Foresaking of Sita Mata etc... > > But i strongly feel that there will be much more depth in all that which we are not aware and events are just on the surface, which generally look at and form our opinions. however people also provide counter arguments to justify all the above events for which Rama is questioned. like when you mentioned Vaali's killing, i may say that to kill Vaali, there was no option but to Kill him the way he was killed. and if we see history of Vaali then his conduct was against Dharma towards his brother. However Rama also took the brunt of that Karma on himself in the later life during Krishna Incarnation. BUT what is the use of all these arguments? I have seen that (from my experience in Astrology as well as other areas) they never end. > > you said " we conclude that at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at that time " . i am sorry Rajarshi, but i am sure we can never conclude especially in case of Realised souls and when they are incarnations of Lord Vishnu. > > plese correct me if my understanding is wrong. > > Belated Happy birthday. > > Warm Regards, > > Utpal > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > Namaste Utpalji > > > > 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. > > > > I have one issue with Lord Rama. The way he killed Bali. That indicates that the means is better than the end, which defeats the basic idealism of the Ramayana. This can be explained if we conclude that at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at that time and acted in the mould of any other human being. > > > > -Regards > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> > > Re: Rama as God > > > > Friday, 5 June, 2009, 12:03 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Narasimha Garu, > > > > >Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind >principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the >duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. >Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over >duality. > > > > I fully appreciate your explanation here. however i still think that Lord Rama was capable of manipulating realm of Maya (Miracle worker) like Lord Krishna BUT the role assumed by him in that incarnation was of that 'Maryaada Purshottam' and that is why he demonstrated 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. But i do not think that he had not Mastered the Duality. where as Krishna didn't bound himself in any boundry whatsoever. > > > > *** > > Is it fruitful/useful in any ways to extend philosophies like comparing Krishna & Kali, Rama and Tara or Matangi. somehow i don't feel like reading and getting in to exercise of reading and imagine such concepts. no offense to any body but it is my question to myself. Narasimha garu ! why i am not inclined to such things. > > > > apologise if my thinking is wrong here. > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > Utpal > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste Rajarshi, > > > > > > Parasara equates Rama incarnation to Sun and Krishna incarnation to Moon. However, do not apply the Pingala-Ida (right-left) division in this case. When you have a two-fold division, then the solar/lunar or right/left or Pingala/Ida or devatas/pitris division comes into play. > > > > > > In the case of Vishnu's incarnation, there aren't just two. We have nine incarnations. So we are talking about a nine-fold division in this mapping. So we have all the nine planets in play. This has nothing to do with left or right channels. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > Within each person, Sun represents the soul, Moon represents the mind, Mars represents the energy and initiative, Mercury represents the learning ability, Jupiter represents the intellect, wisdom and judgment, Venus represents the spirit of enjoyment and bliss, Saturn represents the spirit of hard work or discipline. > > > > > > Vishnu represents pure sattwa. Rama is Vishnu's incarnation with Sun's nature. Krishna is Vishnu's incarnation with Moon's nature. Sun being the soul, Rama is from the soul principle of the cosmic being. Moon being the mind, Krishna is from the mind principle of the cosmic being. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > Dear Utpal, > > > > > > > I didn't understand above. Lord Rama was a Vishnu Avataar and proclaimed by our scriptures as a 'Purnaavataar' . > > > > > > > > how come then you state difference between their level of evolution? > > > > > > An arrow, a simple chain and a necklace with an elaborate work may all be made from the same 22 caret gold. You may call an object made with 22 caret gold to be purer than an object made with 14 caret gold. But if the arrow, chain and beautiful necklace are all made of 22 caret gold, they are all equally pure. Simply because the necklace required more work, it is nore purer. > > > > > > Similarly, Rama and Krishna were both from Vishnu - pure sattwa. One is not more " evolved " than the other. They just served different purposes (like the arrow and necklace made of the same 22 pure gold) and hence had different qualities. > > > > > > Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over duality. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > - > > > rajarshi nandy > > > > > > Thursday, June 04, 2009 1:57 AM > > > Re: Re: Rama as God > > > > > > Dear Narasmihaji > > > > > > Thank you for the reference to the Yoga Vashistam. Plus the Vishnu Puran also mentiones Lord Rama as an avatar. > > > > > > Though I could not convince the person I was discussing with, one thing sturck me as interesting. > > > > > > Lord Rama is the Surya Vamshi. Surya related to the right channel, the path of logic and discrimination and structure. This you had explanied in your mail on Dakshina Kali. > > > > > > Where as Lord Krishna was a Chandra Vamshi, of the lunar channel of intution/emotion etc. > > > As a corollary, can the path shown by Lord Rama be equated to the path of Dakshina Kali and that of Krishna as Vama Kali. > > > > > > -Regards > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > --- On Thu, 4/6/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> > > > Re: Rama as God > > > > > > Thursday, 4 June, 2009, 9:05 AM > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > In the episodes before Rama's birth, Valmiki clearly portrays him as an > > > avatara of Vishnu. > > > > > > In " Yoga Vaasishtham " , also written by Valmiki, Rama becomes depressed. > > > Vasishtha, in the presence of Vishwamitra and other rishis and gods, teaches > > > self-knowledge to Rama. Vasishtha reveals the true nature of Rama then and > > > Rama remains in samadhi. Vasishtha has to finally enter the Sushumna nadi of > > > Rama to disturb his samadhi and bring him back to senses. After that, Rama > > > knows who he is. > > > > > > Rama and Krishna were both avataras of Vishnu. Krishna knew it from the > > > beginning. In the case of Rama, sages like Vasishtha, Vishwamitra knew it > > > even before Rama's birth, but Rama himself did not know it in the beginning. > > > But he too knew it later. > > > > > > However, Krishna had complete mastery over the duality, while Rama did not. > > > Rama had to wade the dual world like normal people. Krishna could do any > > > manipulation of the dual world that he wanted. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > - > > > " rajarshi14 " <rajarshi14@ . co.in> > > > <> > > > Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:45 AM > > > Rama as God > > > > > > > Namaste > > > > > > > > In a discussion with another very learned individual, I was told this > > > > following statement: > > > > > > > > " Valmiki had projected Ram as a person who tried his level best to live by > > > > principles. He was still not God. Or, at least, he never realised he was > > > > an avatar (one who undergoes an 'avataran' (coming down to earth to serve > > > > a specific purpose of the society of his time). > > > > > > > > It was latter day writers like Tulsidas who conferred godhood on Ram. " > > > > > > > > Is this true? Is there any verse in the original Valmiki Ramayana which > > > > shows divinity (avatarahood) on Rama? > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with India Travel http://in.travel. / > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies./ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 Dear Vijayji Thanks for the post. I will try to look up the slokas for the instances you have mentioned. Is the Chandrasena story mentioned in the Valmiki Ramayana? -Regards Rajarshi The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Fri, 5/6/09, Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali <pvklnrao wrote: Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali <pvklnrao Re: Rama as God Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 4:07 PM Rajarshi,Rama gives an explanation to Vali who asks the same question and Vali gets convinced. How ever, going by a story I read, Angada, who is son of Vali takes birth as a hunter in Dwaparayuga and mistakes Krishna's leg fingers to be ears of a deer and shoots an arrow with which Krishna concludes his avataram.Killing an animal from behind is allowed and Rama equates Vali to an animal for his behaviour to his brother.I disagree that Rama was unaware of his deviness. In fact, during the war with Ravana, on a specific day he tell his men "Only I and Siva can shower arrows in this manner". If he were to behave like an ordinary man, he can not say he knew Siva's amstery with bow & arrow.How can an ordinary man bestow boon of eternal life to others? (Hanuman and Jambavantha) . Rama also grants a boon to Jambavantha that he would fight him in next birth.Rama, no doubt knew who he was. In another story, Rama tells Chandrasena that he would marry her in his next birth as Krishna (and Chandrasena is Satyabhama). So, many instances where he gives clear indications that he knew he is no ordinary man.How ever, as Utpal said earlier, he lived a life as an ordinary man. Best regards,Vijay, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:>> Namaste Utpalji> > 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. > > I have one issue with Lord Rama. The way he killed Bali. That indicates that the means is better than the end, which defeats the basic idealism of the Ramayana. This can be explained if we conclude that at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at that time and acted in the mould of any other human being. > > -Regards> Rajarshi> > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote:> > > utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...>> Re: Rama as God> > Friday, 5 June, 2009, 12:03 PM> > > > > > > > > Narasimha Garu,> > >Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind >principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the >duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. >Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over >duality.> > I fully appreciate your explanation here. however i still think that Lord Rama was capable of manipulating realm of Maya (Miracle worker) like Lord Krishna BUT the role assumed by him in that incarnation was of that 'Maryaada Purshottam' and that is why he demonstrated 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. But i do not think that he had not Mastered the Duality. where as Krishna didn't bound himself in any boundry whatsoever.> > ***> Is it fruitful/useful in any ways to extend philosophies like comparing Krishna & Kali, Rama and Tara or Matangi. somehow i don't feel like reading and getting in to exercise of reading and imagine such concepts. no offense to any body but it is my question to myself. Narasimha garu ! why i am not inclined to such things.> > apologise if my thinking is wrong here.> > Warm Regards,> > Utpal > > , "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@> wrote:> >> > Namaste Rajarshi,> > > > Parasara equates Rama incarnation to Sun and Krishna incarnation to Moon. However, do not apply the Pingala-Ida (right-left) division in this case. When you have a two-fold division, then the solar/lunar or right/left or Pingala/Ida or devatas/pitris division comes into play.> > > > In the case of Vishnu's incarnation, there aren't just two. We have nine incarnations. So we are talking about a nine-fold division in this mapping. So we have all the nine planets in play. This has nothing to do with left or right channels.> > > > * * *> > > > Within each person, Sun represents the soul, Moon represents the mind, Mars represents the energy and initiative, Mercury represents the learning ability, Jupiter represents the intellect, wisdom and judgment, Venus represents the spirit of enjoyment and bliss, Saturn represents the spirit of hard work or discipline.> > > > Vishnu represents pure sattwa. Rama is Vishnu's incarnation with Sun's nature. Krishna is Vishnu's incarnation with Moon's nature. Sun being the soul, Rama is from the soul principle of the cosmic being. Moon being the mind, Krishna is from the mind principle of the cosmic being.> > > > * * *> > > > Dear Utpal,> > > > > I didn't understand above. Lord Rama was a Vishnu Avataar and proclaimed by our scriptures as a 'Purnaavataar' .> > > > > > how come then you state difference between their level of evolution?> > > > An arrow, a simple chain and a necklace with an elaborate work may all be made from the same 22 caret gold. You may call an object made with 22 caret gold to be purer than an object made with 14 caret gold. But if the arrow, chain and beautiful necklace are all made of 22 caret gold, they are all equally pure. Simply because the necklace required more work, it is nore purer.> > > > Similarly, Rama and Krishna were both from Vishnu - pure sattwa. One is not more "evolved" than the other. They just served different purposes (like the arrow and necklace made of the same 22 pure gold) and hence had different qualities.> > > > Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over duality.> > > > Best regards,> > Narasimha> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > - > > rajarshi nandy > > > > Thursday, June 04, 2009 1:57 AM> > Re: Re: Rama as God> > > > Dear Narasmihaji> > > > Thank you for the reference to the Yoga Vashistam. Plus the Vishnu Puran also mentiones Lord Rama as an avatar. > > > > Though I could not convince the person I was discussing with, one thing sturck me as interesting.> > > > Lord Rama is the Surya Vamshi. Surya related to the right channel, the path of logic and discrimination and structure. This you had explanied in your mail on Dakshina Kali.> > > > Where as Lord Krishna was a Chandra Vamshi, of the lunar channel of intution/emotion etc. > > As a corollary, can the path shown by Lord Rama be equated to the path of Dakshina Kali and that of Krishna as Vama Kali.> > > > -Regards> > Rajarshi> > > > --- On Thu, 4/6/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> wrote:> > > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@>> > Re: Rama as God> > > > Thursday, 4 June, 2009, 9:05 AM> > > > > > Namaste,> > > > In the episodes before Rama's birth, Valmiki clearly portrays him as an > > avatara of Vishnu.> > > > In "Yoga Vaasishtham" , also written by Valmiki, Rama becomes depressed. > > Vasishtha, in the presence of Vishwamitra and other rishis and gods, teaches > > self-knowledge to Rama. Vasishtha reveals the true nature of Rama then and > > Rama remains in samadhi. Vasishtha has to finally enter the Sushumna nadi of > > Rama to disturb his samadhi and bring him back to senses. After that, Rama > > knows who he is.> > > > Rama and Krishna were both avataras of Vishnu. Krishna knew it from the > > beginning. In the case of Rama, sages like Vasishtha, Vishwamitra knew it > > even before Rama's birth, but Rama himself did not know it in the beginning. > > But he too knew it later.> > > > However, Krishna had complete mastery over the duality, while Rama did not. > > Rama had to wade the dual world like normal people. Krishna could do any > > manipulation of the dual world that he wanted.> > > > Best regards,> > Narasimha> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > - > > "rajarshi14" <rajarshi14@ . co.in>> > <>> > Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:45 AM> > Rama as God> > > > > Namaste> > >> > > In a discussion with another very learned individual, I was told this > > > following statement:> > >> > > "Valmiki had projected Ram as a person who tried his level best to live by > > > principles. He was still not God. Or, at least, he never realised he was > > > an avatar (one who undergoes an 'avataran' (coming down to earth to serve > > > a specific purpose of the society of his time).> > >> > > It was latter day writers like Tulsidas who conferred godhood on Ram."> > >> > > Is this true? Is there any verse in the original Valmiki Ramayana which > > > shows divinity (avatarahood) on Rama?> > >> > > -Regards> > > Rajarshi> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with India Travel http://in.travel. /> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 Dear Rajarshi, I trust so. My knowledge of Ramayana is limited to my reading of Hanuman story from story book Chandamama. How ever, in past, I have found it to be an accurate translation of Valmiki ramayana. Chandrasena comes in the part after Meghanatha dies, Ravana invokes his friends Ahiravana and Mairavana who take Rama to patalaloka. Hanuman goes there to riscue Ram and Laksham. In order get the secret to kill one of those demons, Chandrasena helps and in return Hanuman promises to bring Rama to her. This insident happens at that time. In the same story, Hanuman takes form of pancha mukha anjaneya avatar (five faces). Best regards, Vijay , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > > Dear Vijayji > > Thanks for the post. I will try to look up the slokas for the instances you have mentioned. Is the Chandrasena story mentioned in the Valmiki Ramayana? > > -Regards > Rajarshi > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali <pvklnrao wrote: > > > Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali <pvklnrao > Re: Rama as God > > Friday, 5 June, 2009, 4:07 PM > > Rajarshi, > > Rama gives an explanation to Vali who asks the same question and Vali gets convinced. How ever, going by a story I read, Angada, who is son of Vali takes birth as a hunter in Dwaparayuga and mistakes Krishna's leg fingers to be ears of a deer and shoots an arrow with which Krishna concludes his avataram. > > Killing an animal from behind is allowed and Rama equates Vali to an animal for his behaviour to his brother. > > I disagree that Rama was unaware of his deviness. In fact, during the war with Ravana, on a specific day he tell his men " Only I and Siva can shower arrows in this manner " . If he were to behave like an ordinary man, he can not say he knew Siva's amstery with bow & arrow. > > How can an ordinary man bestow boon of eternal life to others? (Hanuman and Jambavantha) . Rama also grants a boon to Jambavantha that he would fight him in next birth. > > Rama, no doubt knew who he was. In another story, Rama tells Chandrasena that he would marry her in his next birth as Krishna (and Chandrasena is Satyabhama). So, many instances where he gives clear indications that he knew he is no ordinary man. > > How ever, as Utpal said earlier, he lived a life as an ordinary man. > > Best regards, > Vijay > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > Namaste Utpalji > > > > 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. > > > > I have one issue with Lord Rama. The way he killed Bali. That indicates that the means is better than the end, which defeats the basic idealism of the Ramayana. This can be explained if we conclude that at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at that time and acted in the mould of any other human being. > > > > -Regards > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> > > Re: Rama as God > > > > Friday, 5 June, 2009, 12:03 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Narasimha Garu, > > > > >Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind >principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the >duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. >Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over >duality. > > > > I fully appreciate your explanation here. however i still think that Lord Rama was capable of manipulating realm of Maya (Miracle worker) like Lord Krishna BUT the role assumed by him in that incarnation was of that 'Maryaada Purshottam' and that is why he demonstrated 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. But i do not think that he had not Mastered the Duality. where as Krishna didn't bound himself in any boundry whatsoever. > > > > *** > > Is it fruitful/useful in any ways to extend philosophies like comparing Krishna & Kali, Rama and Tara or Matangi. somehow i don't feel like reading and getting in to exercise of reading and imagine such concepts. no offense to any body but it is my question to myself. Narasimha garu ! why i am not inclined to such things. > > > > apologise if my thinking is wrong here. > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > Utpal > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste Rajarshi, > > > > > > Parasara equates Rama incarnation to Sun and Krishna incarnation to Moon. However, do not apply the Pingala-Ida (right-left) division in this case. When you have a two-fold division, then the solar/lunar or right/left or Pingala/Ida or devatas/pitris division comes into play. > > > > > > In the case of Vishnu's incarnation, there aren't just two. We have nine incarnations. So we are talking about a nine-fold division in this mapping. So we have all the nine planets in play. This has nothing to do with left or right channels. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > Within each person, Sun represents the soul, Moon represents the mind, Mars represents the energy and initiative, Mercury represents the learning ability, Jupiter represents the intellect, wisdom and judgment, Venus represents the spirit of enjoyment and bliss, Saturn represents the spirit of hard work or discipline. > > > > > > Vishnu represents pure sattwa. Rama is Vishnu's incarnation with Sun's nature. Krishna is Vishnu's incarnation with Moon's nature. Sun being the soul, Rama is from the soul principle of the cosmic being. Moon being the mind, Krishna is from the mind principle of the cosmic being. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > Dear Utpal, > > > > > > > I didn't understand above. Lord Rama was a Vishnu Avataar and proclaimed by our scriptures as a 'Purnaavataar' . > > > > > > > > how come then you state difference between their level of evolution? > > > > > > An arrow, a simple chain and a necklace with an elaborate work may all be made from the same 22 caret gold. You may call an object made with 22 caret gold to be purer than an object made with 14 caret gold. But if the arrow, chain and beautiful necklace are all made of 22 caret gold, they are all equally pure. Simply because the necklace required more work, it is nore purer. > > > > > > Similarly, Rama and Krishna were both from Vishnu - pure sattwa. One is not more " evolved " than the other. They just served different purposes (like the arrow and necklace made of the same 22 pure gold) and hence had different qualities. > > > > > > Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over duality. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > - > > > rajarshi nandy > > > > > > Thursday, June 04, 2009 1:57 AM > > > Re: Re: Rama as God > > > > > > Dear Narasmihaji > > > > > > Thank you for the reference to the Yoga Vashistam. Plus the Vishnu Puran also mentiones Lord Rama as an avatar. > > > > > > Though I could not convince the person I was discussing with, one thing sturck me as interesting. > > > > > > Lord Rama is the Surya Vamshi. Surya related to the right channel, the path of logic and discrimination and structure. This you had explanied in your mail on Dakshina Kali. > > > > > > Where as Lord Krishna was a Chandra Vamshi, of the lunar channel of intution/emotion etc. > > > As a corollary, can the path shown by Lord Rama be equated to the path of Dakshina Kali and that of Krishna as Vama Kali. > > > > > > -Regards > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > --- On Thu, 4/6/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> > > > Re: Rama as God > > > > > > Thursday, 4 June, 2009, 9:05 AM > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > In the episodes before Rama's birth, Valmiki clearly portrays him as an > > > avatara of Vishnu. > > > > > > In " Yoga Vaasishtham " , also written by Valmiki, Rama becomes depressed. > > > Vasishtha, in the presence of Vishwamitra and other rishis and gods, teaches > > > self-knowledge to Rama. Vasishtha reveals the true nature of Rama then and > > > Rama remains in samadhi. Vasishtha has to finally enter the Sushumna nadi of > > > Rama to disturb his samadhi and bring him back to senses. After that, Rama > > > knows who he is. > > > > > > Rama and Krishna were both avataras of Vishnu. Krishna knew it from the > > > beginning. In the case of Rama, sages like Vasishtha, Vishwamitra knew it > > > even before Rama's birth, but Rama himself did not know it in the beginning. > > > But he too knew it later. > > > > > > However, Krishna had complete mastery over the duality, while Rama did not. > > > Rama had to wade the dual world like normal people. Krishna could do any > > > manipulation of the dual world that he wanted. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > - > > > " rajarshi14 " <rajarshi14@ . co.in> > > > <> > > > Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:45 AM > > > Rama as God > > > > > > > Namaste > > > > > > > > In a discussion with another very learned individual, I was told this > > > > following statement: > > > > > > > > " Valmiki had projected Ram as a person who tried his level best to live by > > > > principles. He was still not God. Or, at least, he never realised he was > > > > an avatar (one who undergoes an 'avataran' (coming down to earth to serve > > > > a specific purpose of the society of his time). > > > > > > > > It was latter day writers like Tulsidas who conferred godhood on Ram. " > > > > > > > > Is this true? Is there any verse in the original Valmiki Ramayana which > > > > shows divinity (avatarahood) on Rama? > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with India Travel http://in.travel. / > > > > > > > > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with India Travel http://in.travel./ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 Namaste Vijay and others, vAli had a boon according to which whosoever fights him head-on in a dual he gets half his opponents strength. This way he defeated Ravana too. This is the reason for Rama to shoot him by hiding. I want to point out that Realized beings and Avatars that have a mastery over duality, don't necessarily manifest miracles that violate the rules of duality according to 'our' definitions of good, righteousness or necessity etc. Unless they deem it necessary, they play within the limitations of duality and act by the natural laws of violate a lower dharma for upholding a higher dharma as needed. The fundamental difference being that their concept of lower and higher Dharma is in accordance with the Existence and ours is driven by selfishness, prejudices and delusion. Regards, -Prasad , " Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali " <pvklnrao wrote: > > Rama could have perhaps killed Vali in a direct dual. How ever, Vali's style of fighting is hand-to-hand. So, the fight would not have been an equal one any way. > > Vali was a vanara king but behaved like an animal with out any vichakshana and deserved to be treated like an animal. Rama treated him like an animal. Rama was not afraid of what others will say about him. He was convinced Vali was equivalent to an animal and he treated him like one. > > Moral: No matter how reputed and great the person is, the person should be judged by his nature and behaviour. > > Best regards, > Vijay > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote: > > > > Namaste Utpalji > > > > A very (belated) happy birth day to you too! - > > > > But i strongly feel that there will be much more depth in all that which we are not aware and events are just on the surface, which generally look at and form our opinions. > > > > I entirely agree with this proposition.I was merely looking and trying to analysing the epic from the scriptural point of view as it appears. And yes, these cannot have a solution, but if we discuss this with an open mind, all can gain from this. I am sure you would agree with this Utpalji. > > > > Let me put down some thoughts. > > > > I find idealism to be the central theme of Ramayana. In Mahabharata by comparison, aligning oneself with a higher Dharma beyond lesser dharmas is the aim. > > > > Being a master of all possible celestial weapons, Rama could have challenged Bali in a direct duel and killed him straight; for, the boon on Bali -- that he would automatically get half the strength of his opponent in course of any duel -- could not have affected the efficacy of celestial weapons. > > > > Rama could also have... > > > > (1) dried the Indian Ocean on the very first day when it did not give him way to cross over to Lanka; instead he invoked Shiva and prayed to the sea god till his patience couldn't sustain more; > > > > (2) killed Ravana with a Brahmastra right from the day and right from the spot where he stood at the time of coming to know who abducted Sita, without needing to get into a war. He had in his arsenal what can be deemed that era's version of an IRBM (Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile)! > > > > But he did none of the above because he thought there was a certain way established by dharma to go about each act. This principle was breached on three occasions. Killing of Bali in that manner was one IMO. > > > > Considering the above, it does not make sense to me why Rama killed Bali in that manner. > > > > -Regards > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@> wrote: > > > > > > utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@> > > Re: Rama as God > > > > Friday, 5 June, 2009, 1:08 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Rajarshi, > > > > >at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at >that time and acted in the mould of any other human being. > > > > If you go through Yoga Vaasishtha, in the concluding part it is mentioned that Raama went in to Samadhi and Vasishtha Rishi then declares in front of the whole gathering that he is the Incarnation of all pervading Vishnu. > > > > I understand fully when Narasimha says that Rama realised his true nature later (During Vasishtha's discourse) and not from the birth. but once he realised, then he realised. i fail to appreciate your argument that he forgotten his true nature during some course of events and acted against dharma or Maryaada. Bali's episode is one amongst some more when Lors Rama's Maryaada and conduct is questioned. he is being criticised by some for Marich event, Sita's Agniparikha, Foresaking of Sita Mata etc... > > > > But i strongly feel that there will be much more depth in all that which we are not aware and events are just on the surface, which generally look at and form our opinions. however people also provide counter arguments to justify all the above events for which Rama is questioned. like when you mentioned Vaali's killing, i may say that to kill Vaali, there was no option but to Kill him the way he was killed. and if we see history of Vaali then his conduct was against Dharma towards his brother. However Rama also took the brunt of that Karma on himself in the later life during Krishna Incarnation. BUT what is the use of all these arguments? I have seen that (from my experience in Astrology as well as other areas) they never end. > > > > you said " we conclude that at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at that time " . i am sorry Rajarshi, but i am sure we can never conclude especially in case of Realised souls and when they are incarnations of Lord Vishnu. > > > > plese correct me if my understanding is wrong. > > > > Belated Happy birthday. > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > Utpal > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste Utpalji > > > > > > 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. > > > > > > I have one issue with Lord Rama. The way he killed Bali. That indicates that the means is better than the end, which defeats the basic idealism of the Ramayana. This can be explained if we conclude that at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at that time and acted in the mould of any other human being. > > > > > > -Regards > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> > > > Re: Rama as God > > > > > > Friday, 5 June, 2009, 12:03 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Narasimha Garu, > > > > > > >Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind >principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the >duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. >Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over >duality. > > > > > > I fully appreciate your explanation here. however i still think that Lord Rama was capable of manipulating realm of Maya (Miracle worker) like Lord Krishna BUT the role assumed by him in that incarnation was of that 'Maryaada Purshottam' and that is why he demonstrated 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. But i do not think that he had not Mastered the Duality. where as Krishna didn't bound himself in any boundry whatsoever. > > > > > > *** > > > Is it fruitful/useful in any ways to extend philosophies like comparing Krishna & Kali, Rama and Tara or Matangi. somehow i don't feel like reading and getting in to exercise of reading and imagine such concepts. no offense to any body but it is my question to myself. Narasimha garu ! why i am not inclined to such things. > > > > > > apologise if my thinking is wrong here. > > > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > > > Utpal > > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Namaste Rajarshi, > > > > > > > > Parasara equates Rama incarnation to Sun and Krishna incarnation to Moon. However, do not apply the Pingala-Ida (right-left) division in this case. When you have a two-fold division, then the solar/lunar or right/left or Pingala/Ida or devatas/pitris division comes into play. > > > > > > > > In the case of Vishnu's incarnation, there aren't just two. We have nine incarnations. So we are talking about a nine-fold division in this mapping. So we have all the nine planets in play. This has nothing to do with left or right channels. > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > Within each person, Sun represents the soul, Moon represents the mind, Mars represents the energy and initiative, Mercury represents the learning ability, Jupiter represents the intellect, wisdom and judgment, Venus represents the spirit of enjoyment and bliss, Saturn represents the spirit of hard work or discipline. > > > > > > > > Vishnu represents pure sattwa. Rama is Vishnu's incarnation with Sun's nature. Krishna is Vishnu's incarnation with Moon's nature. Sun being the soul, Rama is from the soul principle of the cosmic being. Moon being the mind, Krishna is from the mind principle of the cosmic being. > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > Dear Utpal, > > > > > > > > > I didn't understand above. Lord Rama was a Vishnu Avataar and proclaimed by our scriptures as a 'Purnaavataar' . > > > > > > > > > > how come then you state difference between their level of evolution? > > > > > > > > An arrow, a simple chain and a necklace with an elaborate work may all be made from the same 22 caret gold. You may call an object made with 22 caret gold to be purer than an object made with 14 caret gold. But if the arrow, chain and beautiful necklace are all made of 22 caret gold, they are all equally pure. Simply because the necklace required more work, it is nore purer. > > > > > > > > Similarly, Rama and Krishna were both from Vishnu - pure sattwa. One is not more " evolved " than the other. They just served different purposes (like the arrow and necklace made of the same 22 pure gold) and hence had different qualities. > > > > > > > > Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over duality. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Narasimha > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > - > > > > rajarshi nandy > > > > > > > > Thursday, June 04, 2009 1:57 AM > > > > Re: Re: Rama as God > > > > > > > > Dear Narasmihaji > > > > > > > > Thank you for the reference to the Yoga Vashistam. Plus the Vishnu Puran also mentiones Lord Rama as an avatar. > > > > > > > > Though I could not convince the person I was discussing with, one thing sturck me as interesting. > > > > > > > > Lord Rama is the Surya Vamshi. Surya related to the right channel, the path of logic and discrimination and structure. This you had explanied in your mail on Dakshina Kali. > > > > > > > > Where as Lord Krishna was a Chandra Vamshi, of the lunar channel of intution/emotion etc. > > > > As a corollary, can the path shown by Lord Rama be equated to the path of Dakshina Kali and that of Krishna as Vama Kali. > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 4/6/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> > > > > Re: Rama as God > > > > > > > > Thursday, 4 June, 2009, 9:05 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > In the episodes before Rama's birth, Valmiki clearly portrays him as an > > > > avatara of Vishnu. > > > > > > > > In " Yoga Vaasishtham " , also written by Valmiki, Rama becomes depressed. > > > > Vasishtha, in the presence of Vishwamitra and other rishis and gods, teaches > > > > self-knowledge to Rama. Vasishtha reveals the true nature of Rama then and > > > > Rama remains in samadhi. Vasishtha has to finally enter the Sushumna nadi of > > > > Rama to disturb his samadhi and bring him back to senses. After that, Rama > > > > knows who he is. > > > > > > > > Rama and Krishna were both avataras of Vishnu. Krishna knew it from the > > > > beginning. In the case of Rama, sages like Vasishtha, Vishwamitra knew it > > > > even before Rama's birth, but Rama himself did not know it in the beginning. > > > > But he too knew it later. > > > > > > > > However, Krishna had complete mastery over the duality, while Rama did not. > > > > Rama had to wade the dual world like normal people. Krishna could do any > > > > manipulation of the dual world that he wanted. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Narasimha > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > - > > > > " rajarshi14 " <rajarshi14@ . co.in> > > > > <> > > > > Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:45 AM > > > > Rama as God > > > > > > > > > Namaste > > > > > > > > > > In a discussion with another very learned individual, I was told this > > > > > following statement: > > > > > > > > > > " Valmiki had projected Ram as a person who tried his level best to live by > > > > > principles. He was still not God. Or, at least, he never realised he was > > > > > an avatar (one who undergoes an 'avataran' (coming down to earth to serve > > > > > a specific purpose of the society of his time). > > > > > > > > > > It was latter day writers like Tulsidas who conferred godhood on Ram. " > > > > > > > > > > Is this true? Is there any verse in the original Valmiki Ramayana which > > > > > shows divinity (avatarahood) on Rama? > > > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with India Travel http://in.travel. / > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies./ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 >Vali had a boon If I remember correct, Indra gifts him a mala which when he wears, will give him victory in a dual. Vali does not fight with Ravana - Vali takes bath in the 7 seas and does prayers. Ravana goes and challenges him. Vali feels disturbed but does not want to fight at that time as he is praying mood. So, he grabs Ravana puts him under his arm and continues his routine. Ravana tries hard to get out of the grip but fails. Realising the strength of Vali, he requests to be accepted as his friend. However, I agree with all other points. Best regards, Vijay , " vvootla " <vvootla wrote: > > Namaste Vijay and others, > vAli had a boon according to which whosoever fights him head-on in a dual he gets half his opponents strength. This way he defeated Ravana too. This is the reason for Rama to shoot him by hiding. > I want to point out that Realized beings and Avatars that have a mastery over duality, don't necessarily manifest miracles that violate the rules of duality according to 'our' definitions of good, righteousness or necessity etc. Unless they deem it necessary, they play within the limitations of duality and act by the natural laws of violate a lower dharma for upholding a higher dharma as needed. The fundamental difference being that their concept of lower and higher Dharma is in accordance with the Existence and ours is driven by selfishness, prejudices and delusion. > Regards, > -Prasad > > > , " Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali " <pvklnrao@> wrote: > > > > Rama could have perhaps killed Vali in a direct dual. How ever, Vali's style of fighting is hand-to-hand. So, the fight would not have been an equal one any way. > > > > Vali was a vanara king but behaved like an animal with out any vichakshana and deserved to be treated like an animal. Rama treated him like an animal. Rama was not afraid of what others will say about him. He was convinced Vali was equivalent to an animal and he treated him like one. > > > > Moral: No matter how reputed and great the person is, the person should be judged by his nature and behaviour. > > > > Best regards, > > Vijay > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste Utpalji > > > > > > A very (belated) happy birth day to you too! - > > > > > > But i strongly feel that there will be much more depth in all that which we are not aware and events are just on the surface, which generally look at and form our opinions. > > > > > > I entirely agree with this proposition.I was merely looking and trying to analysing the epic from the scriptural point of view as it appears. And yes, these cannot have a solution, but if we discuss this with an open mind, all can gain from this. I am sure you would agree with this Utpalji. > > > > > > Let me put down some thoughts. > > > > > > I find idealism to be the central theme of Ramayana. In Mahabharata by comparison, aligning oneself with a higher Dharma beyond lesser dharmas is the aim. > > > > > > Being a master of all possible celestial weapons, Rama could have challenged Bali in a direct duel and killed him straight; for, the boon on Bali -- that he would automatically get half the strength of his opponent in course of any duel -- could not have affected the efficacy of celestial weapons. > > > > > > Rama could also have... > > > > > > (1) dried the Indian Ocean on the very first day when it did not give him way to cross over to Lanka; instead he invoked Shiva and prayed to the sea god till his patience couldn't sustain more; > > > > > > (2) killed Ravana with a Brahmastra right from the day and right from the spot where he stood at the time of coming to know who abducted Sita, without needing to get into a war. He had in his arsenal what can be deemed that era's version of an IRBM (Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile)! > > > > > > But he did none of the above because he thought there was a certain way established by dharma to go about each act. This principle was breached on three occasions. Killing of Bali in that manner was one IMO. > > > > > > Considering the above, it does not make sense to me why Rama killed Bali in that manner. > > > > > > -Regards > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@> > > > Re: Rama as God > > > > > > Friday, 5 June, 2009, 1:08 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Rajarshi, > > > > > > >at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at >that time and acted in the mould of any other human being. > > > > > > If you go through Yoga Vaasishtha, in the concluding part it is mentioned that Raama went in to Samadhi and Vasishtha Rishi then declares in front of the whole gathering that he is the Incarnation of all pervading Vishnu. > > > > > > I understand fully when Narasimha says that Rama realised his true nature later (During Vasishtha's discourse) and not from the birth. but once he realised, then he realised. i fail to appreciate your argument that he forgotten his true nature during some course of events and acted against dharma or Maryaada. Bali's episode is one amongst some more when Lors Rama's Maryaada and conduct is questioned. he is being criticised by some for Marich event, Sita's Agniparikha, Foresaking of Sita Mata etc... > > > > > > But i strongly feel that there will be much more depth in all that which we are not aware and events are just on the surface, which generally look at and form our opinions. however people also provide counter arguments to justify all the above events for which Rama is questioned. like when you mentioned Vaali's killing, i may say that to kill Vaali, there was no option but to Kill him the way he was killed. and if we see history of Vaali then his conduct was against Dharma towards his brother. However Rama also took the brunt of that Karma on himself in the later life during Krishna Incarnation. BUT what is the use of all these arguments? I have seen that (from my experience in Astrology as well as other areas) they never end. > > > > > > you said " we conclude that at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at that time " . i am sorry Rajarshi, but i am sure we can never conclude especially in case of Realised souls and when they are incarnations of Lord Vishnu. > > > > > > plese correct me if my understanding is wrong. > > > > > > Belated Happy birthday. > > > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > > > Utpal > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Namaste Utpalji > > > > > > > > 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. > > > > > > > > I have one issue with Lord Rama. The way he killed Bali. That indicates that the means is better than the end, which defeats the basic idealism of the Ramayana. This can be explained if we conclude that at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at that time and acted in the mould of any other human being. > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> > > > > Re: Rama as God > > > > > > > > Friday, 5 June, 2009, 12:03 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Narasimha Garu, > > > > > > > > >Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind >principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the >duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. >Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over >duality. > > > > > > > > I fully appreciate your explanation here. however i still think that Lord Rama was capable of manipulating realm of Maya (Miracle worker) like Lord Krishna BUT the role assumed by him in that incarnation was of that 'Maryaada Purshottam' and that is why he demonstrated 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. But i do not think that he had not Mastered the Duality. where as Krishna didn't bound himself in any boundry whatsoever. > > > > > > > > *** > > > > Is it fruitful/useful in any ways to extend philosophies like comparing Krishna & Kali, Rama and Tara or Matangi. somehow i don't feel like reading and getting in to exercise of reading and imagine such concepts. no offense to any body but it is my question to myself. Narasimha garu ! why i am not inclined to such things. > > > > > > > > apologise if my thinking is wrong here. > > > > > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > > > > > Utpal > > > > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Rajarshi, > > > > > > > > > > Parasara equates Rama incarnation to Sun and Krishna incarnation to Moon. However, do not apply the Pingala-Ida (right-left) division in this case. When you have a two-fold division, then the solar/lunar or right/left or Pingala/Ida or devatas/pitris division comes into play. > > > > > > > > > > In the case of Vishnu's incarnation, there aren't just two. We have nine incarnations. So we are talking about a nine-fold division in this mapping. So we have all the nine planets in play. This has nothing to do with left or right channels. > > > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > > > Within each person, Sun represents the soul, Moon represents the mind, Mars represents the energy and initiative, Mercury represents the learning ability, Jupiter represents the intellect, wisdom and judgment, Venus represents the spirit of enjoyment and bliss, Saturn represents the spirit of hard work or discipline. > > > > > > > > > > Vishnu represents pure sattwa. Rama is Vishnu's incarnation with Sun's nature. Krishna is Vishnu's incarnation with Moon's nature. Sun being the soul, Rama is from the soul principle of the cosmic being. Moon being the mind, Krishna is from the mind principle of the cosmic being. > > > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > > > Dear Utpal, > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't understand above. Lord Rama was a Vishnu Avataar and proclaimed by our scriptures as a 'Purnaavataar' . > > > > > > > > > > > > how come then you state difference between their level of evolution? > > > > > > > > > > An arrow, a simple chain and a necklace with an elaborate work may all be made from the same 22 caret gold. You may call an object made with 22 caret gold to be purer than an object made with 14 caret gold. But if the arrow, chain and beautiful necklace are all made of 22 caret gold, they are all equally pure. Simply because the necklace required more work, it is nore purer. > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, Rama and Krishna were both from Vishnu - pure sattwa. One is not more " evolved " than the other. They just served different purposes (like the arrow and necklace made of the same 22 pure gold) and hence had different qualities. > > > > > > > > > > Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over duality. > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > rajarshi nandy > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, June 04, 2009 1:57 AM > > > > > Re: Re: Rama as God > > > > > > > > > > Dear Narasmihaji > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for the reference to the Yoga Vashistam. Plus the Vishnu Puran also mentiones Lord Rama as an avatar. > > > > > > > > > > Though I could not convince the person I was discussing with, one thing sturck me as interesting. > > > > > > > > > > Lord Rama is the Surya Vamshi. Surya related to the right channel, the path of logic and discrimination and structure. This you had explanied in your mail on Dakshina Kali. > > > > > > > > > > Where as Lord Krishna was a Chandra Vamshi, of the lunar channel of intution/emotion etc. > > > > > As a corollary, can the path shown by Lord Rama be equated to the path of Dakshina Kali and that of Krishna as Vama Kali. > > > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 4/6/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> > > > > > Re: Rama as God > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, 4 June, 2009, 9:05 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > In the episodes before Rama's birth, Valmiki clearly portrays him as an > > > > > avatara of Vishnu. > > > > > > > > > > In " Yoga Vaasishtham " , also written by Valmiki, Rama becomes depressed. > > > > > Vasishtha, in the presence of Vishwamitra and other rishis and gods, teaches > > > > > self-knowledge to Rama. Vasishtha reveals the true nature of Rama then and > > > > > Rama remains in samadhi. Vasishtha has to finally enter the Sushumna nadi of > > > > > Rama to disturb his samadhi and bring him back to senses. After that, Rama > > > > > knows who he is. > > > > > > > > > > Rama and Krishna were both avataras of Vishnu. Krishna knew it from the > > > > > beginning. In the case of Rama, sages like Vasishtha, Vishwamitra knew it > > > > > even before Rama's birth, but Rama himself did not know it in the beginning. > > > > > But he too knew it later. > > > > > > > > > > However, Krishna had complete mastery over the duality, while Rama did not. > > > > > Rama had to wade the dual world like normal people. Krishna could do any > > > > > manipulation of the dual world that he wanted. > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > " rajarshi14 " <rajarshi14@ . co.in> > > > > > <> > > > > > Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:45 AM > > > > > Rama as God > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste > > > > > > > > > > > > In a discussion with another very learned individual, I was told this > > > > > > following statement: > > > > > > > > > > > > " Valmiki had projected Ram as a person who tried his level best to live by > > > > > > principles. He was still not God. Or, at least, he never realised he was > > > > > > an avatar (one who undergoes an 'avataran' (coming down to earth to serve > > > > > > a specific purpose of the society of his time). > > > > > > > > > > > > It was latter day writers like Tulsidas who conferred godhood on Ram. " > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this true? Is there any verse in the original Valmiki Ramayana which > > > > > > shows divinity (avatarahood) on Rama? > > > > > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with India Travel http://in.travel. / > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies./ > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 Namaste Vijay, >Indra gifts him a mala which when he wears, >will give him victory >in a dual. I am not aware of this but i remeber that Vali had an extraordinary boon that he'll get half the strength of the opponent in dual and that is the reason, Rama could not fight him in a Dual. about Ravan story, you are right. he was humbled by vali when the later kept former under his arm pit like a child playing with a toy. it was not even a fight. The great ravana was thus humbled by Sahastraarjun also. warm regards, utpal , " Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali " <pvklnrao wrote: > > >Vali had a boon > If I remember correct, Indra gifts him a mala which when he wears, will give him victory in a dual. > > Vali does not fight with Ravana - Vali takes bath in the 7 seas and does prayers. Ravana goes and challenges him. Vali feels disturbed but does not want to fight at that time as he is praying mood. So, he grabs Ravana puts him under his arm and continues his routine. Ravana tries hard to get out of the grip but fails. Realising the strength of Vali, he requests to be accepted as his friend. > > However, I agree with all other points. > > Best regards, > Vijay > > , " vvootla " <vvootla@> wrote: > > > > Namaste Vijay and others, > > vAli had a boon according to which whosoever fights him head-on in a dual he gets half his opponents strength. This way he defeated Ravana too. This is the reason for Rama to shoot him by hiding. > > I want to point out that Realized beings and Avatars that have a mastery over duality, don't necessarily manifest miracles that violate the rules of duality according to 'our' definitions of good, righteousness or necessity etc. Unless they deem it necessary, they play within the limitations of duality and act by the natural laws of violate a lower dharma for upholding a higher dharma as needed. The fundamental difference being that their concept of lower and higher Dharma is in accordance with the Existence and ours is driven by selfishness, prejudices and delusion. > > Regards, > > -Prasad > > > > > > , " Vijaya Kumara Lakshmi Narayana Rao Pingali " <pvklnrao@> wrote: > > > > > > Rama could have perhaps killed Vali in a direct dual. How ever, Vali's style of fighting is hand-to-hand. So, the fight would not have been an equal one any way. > > > > > > Vali was a vanara king but behaved like an animal with out any vichakshana and deserved to be treated like an animal. Rama treated him like an animal. Rama was not afraid of what others will say about him. He was convinced Vali was equivalent to an animal and he treated him like one. > > > > > > Moral: No matter how reputed and great the person is, the person should be judged by his nature and behaviour. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Vijay > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Namaste Utpalji > > > > > > > > A very (belated) happy birth day to you too! - > > > > > > > > But i strongly feel that there will be much more depth in all that which we are not aware and events are just on the surface, which generally look at and form our opinions. > > > > > > > > I entirely agree with this proposition.I was merely looking and trying to analysing the epic from the scriptural point of view as it appears. And yes, these cannot have a solution, but if we discuss this with an open mind, all can gain from this. I am sure you would agree with this Utpalji. > > > > > > > > Let me put down some thoughts. > > > > > > > > I find idealism to be the central theme of Ramayana. In Mahabharata by comparison, aligning oneself with a higher Dharma beyond lesser dharmas is the aim. > > > > > > > > Being a master of all possible celestial weapons, Rama could have challenged Bali in a direct duel and killed him straight; for, the boon on Bali -- that he would automatically get half the strength of his opponent in course of any duel -- could not have affected the efficacy of celestial weapons. > > > > > > > > Rama could also have... > > > > > > > > (1) dried the Indian Ocean on the very first day when it did not give him way to cross over to Lanka; instead he invoked Shiva and prayed to the sea god till his patience couldn't sustain more; > > > > > > > > (2) killed Ravana with a Brahmastra right from the day and right from the spot where he stood at the time of coming to know who abducted Sita, without needing to get into a war. He had in his arsenal what can be deemed that era's version of an IRBM (Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile)! > > > > > > > > But he did none of the above because he thought there was a certain way established by dharma to go about each act. This principle was breached on three occasions. Killing of Bali in that manner was one IMO. > > > > > > > > Considering the above, it does not make sense to me why Rama killed Bali in that manner. > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@> > > > > Re: Rama as God > > > > > > > > Friday, 5 June, 2009, 1:08 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Rajarshi, > > > > > > > > >at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at >that time and acted in the mould of any other human being. > > > > > > > > If you go through Yoga Vaasishtha, in the concluding part it is mentioned that Raama went in to Samadhi and Vasishtha Rishi then declares in front of the whole gathering that he is the Incarnation of all pervading Vishnu. > > > > > > > > I understand fully when Narasimha says that Rama realised his true nature later (During Vasishtha's discourse) and not from the birth. but once he realised, then he realised. i fail to appreciate your argument that he forgotten his true nature during some course of events and acted against dharma or Maryaada. Bali's episode is one amongst some more when Lors Rama's Maryaada and conduct is questioned. he is being criticised by some for Marich event, Sita's Agniparikha, Foresaking of Sita Mata etc... > > > > > > > > But i strongly feel that there will be much more depth in all that which we are not aware and events are just on the surface, which generally look at and form our opinions. however people also provide counter arguments to justify all the above events for which Rama is questioned. like when you mentioned Vaali's killing, i may say that to kill Vaali, there was no option but to Kill him the way he was killed. and if we see history of Vaali then his conduct was against Dharma towards his brother. However Rama also took the brunt of that Karma on himself in the later life during Krishna Incarnation. BUT what is the use of all these arguments? I have seen that (from my experience in Astrology as well as other areas) they never end. > > > > > > > > you said " we conclude that at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at that time " . i am sorry Rajarshi, but i am sure we can never conclude especially in case of Realised souls and when they are incarnations of Lord Vishnu. > > > > > > > > plese correct me if my understanding is wrong. > > > > > > > > Belated Happy birthday. > > > > > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > > > > > Utpal > > > > > > > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Utpalji > > > > > > > > > > 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. > > > > > > > > > > I have one issue with Lord Rama. The way he killed Bali. That indicates that the means is better than the end, which defeats the basic idealism of the Ramayana. This can be explained if we conclude that at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at that time and acted in the mould of any other human being. > > > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> > > > > > Re: Rama as God > > > > > > > > > > Friday, 5 June, 2009, 12:03 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Narasimha Garu, > > > > > > > > > > >Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind >principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the >duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. >Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over >duality. > > > > > > > > > > I fully appreciate your explanation here. however i still think that Lord Rama was capable of manipulating realm of Maya (Miracle worker) like Lord Krishna BUT the role assumed by him in that incarnation was of that 'Maryaada Purshottam' and that is why he demonstrated 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. But i do not think that he had not Mastered the Duality. where as Krishna didn't bound himself in any boundry whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > *** > > > > > Is it fruitful/useful in any ways to extend philosophies like comparing Krishna & Kali, Rama and Tara or Matangi. somehow i don't feel like reading and getting in to exercise of reading and imagine such concepts. no offense to any body but it is my question to myself. Narasimha garu ! why i am not inclined to such things. > > > > > > > > > > apologise if my thinking is wrong here. > > > > > > > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Utpal > > > > > > > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Rajarshi, > > > > > > > > > > > > Parasara equates Rama incarnation to Sun and Krishna incarnation to Moon. However, do not apply the Pingala-Ida (right-left) division in this case. When you have a two-fold division, then the solar/lunar or right/left or Pingala/Ida or devatas/pitris division comes into play. > > > > > > > > > > > > In the case of Vishnu's incarnation, there aren't just two. We have nine incarnations. So we are talking about a nine-fold division in this mapping. So we have all the nine planets in play. This has nothing to do with left or right channels. > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > Within each person, Sun represents the soul, Moon represents the mind, Mars represents the energy and initiative, Mercury represents the learning ability, Jupiter represents the intellect, wisdom and judgment, Venus represents the spirit of enjoyment and bliss, Saturn represents the spirit of hard work or discipline. > > > > > > > > > > > > Vishnu represents pure sattwa. Rama is Vishnu's incarnation with Sun's nature. Krishna is Vishnu's incarnation with Moon's nature. Sun being the soul, Rama is from the soul principle of the cosmic being. Moon being the mind, Krishna is from the mind principle of the cosmic being. > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Utpal, > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't understand above. Lord Rama was a Vishnu Avataar and proclaimed by our scriptures as a 'Purnaavataar' . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how come then you state difference between their level of evolution? > > > > > > > > > > > > An arrow, a simple chain and a necklace with an elaborate work may all be made from the same 22 caret gold. You may call an object made with 22 caret gold to be purer than an object made with 14 caret gold. But if the arrow, chain and beautiful necklace are all made of 22 caret gold, they are all equally pure. Simply because the necklace required more work, it is nore purer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, Rama and Krishna were both from Vishnu - pure sattwa. One is not more " evolved " than the other. They just served different purposes (like the arrow and necklace made of the same 22 pure gold) and hence had different qualities. > > > > > > > > > > > > Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over duality. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > rajarshi nandy > > > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, June 04, 2009 1:57 AM > > > > > > Re: Re: Rama as God > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Narasmihaji > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for the reference to the Yoga Vashistam. Plus the Vishnu Puran also mentiones Lord Rama as an avatar. > > > > > > > > > > > > Though I could not convince the person I was discussing with, one thing sturck me as interesting. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lord Rama is the Surya Vamshi. Surya related to the right channel, the path of logic and discrimination and structure. This you had explanied in your mail on Dakshina Kali. > > > > > > > > > > > > Where as Lord Krishna was a Chandra Vamshi, of the lunar channel of intution/emotion etc. > > > > > > As a corollary, can the path shown by Lord Rama be equated to the path of Dakshina Kali and that of Krishna as Vama Kali. > > > > > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 4/6/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> > > > > > > Re: Rama as God > > > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, 4 June, 2009, 9:05 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > > > > In the episodes before Rama's birth, Valmiki clearly portrays him as an > > > > > > avatara of Vishnu. > > > > > > > > > > > > In " Yoga Vaasishtham " , also written by Valmiki, Rama becomes depressed. > > > > > > Vasishtha, in the presence of Vishwamitra and other rishis and gods, teaches > > > > > > self-knowledge to Rama. Vasishtha reveals the true nature of Rama then and > > > > > > Rama remains in samadhi. Vasishtha has to finally enter the Sushumna nadi of > > > > > > Rama to disturb his samadhi and bring him back to senses. After that, Rama > > > > > > knows who he is. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rama and Krishna were both avataras of Vishnu. Krishna knew it from the > > > > > > beginning. In the case of Rama, sages like Vasishtha, Vishwamitra knew it > > > > > > even before Rama's birth, but Rama himself did not know it in the beginning. > > > > > > But he too knew it later. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, Krishna had complete mastery over the duality, while Rama did not. > > > > > > Rama had to wade the dual world like normal people. Krishna could do any > > > > > > manipulation of the dual world that he wanted. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Narasimha > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > " rajarshi14 " <rajarshi14@ . co.in> > > > > > > <> > > > > > > Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:45 AM > > > > > > Rama as God > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a discussion with another very learned individual, I was told this > > > > > > > following statement: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Valmiki had projected Ram as a person who tried his level best to live by > > > > > > > principles. He was still not God. Or, at least, he never realised he was > > > > > > > an avatar (one who undergoes an 'avataran' (coming down to earth to serve > > > > > > > a specific purpose of the society of his time). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was latter day writers like Tulsidas who conferred godhood on Ram. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this true? Is there any verse in the original Valmiki Ramayana which > > > > > > > shows divinity (avatarahood) on Rama? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with India Travel http://in.travel. / > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies./ > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 Dear Rajarshi, >but if we discuss this with an open mind, all can gain from this. Yes... you are right. if we don't discuss and put forth arguments and counter arguments, many aspects may remain hidden or misunderstood. yes..the open discussions have their own utility and must go on. i also agree that discussion on concepts like comparing Krshna to Kaali - Influence of Surya, chandra, Guru etc.. on Avataaras like Rama, Krishna, Vaaman - Ida & Pingala Nadi and Dakdhina Kali (Dakshin Means Left side and Vaama means Right side....in Nyaasa we say Dakshin Karne, Vaama Karne...Dakshin Naasapute, Vaama naasaa pute and so on) are very necessary. I take back my reservation on that regard which i expressed in a mail y'day. *** About Raama's complete divinity and his uninterrupted awareness of the same, there is no doubt. one more point i want to add in what vijay and you said * when Rama, Lakshman and Sita were passing throught the forest, many Rishis met Rama and told him that they are meditating enough on non dual Brahman but they now want to taste the bliss of Dwaita. Rama assured them that in this incarnation he can not fullfill their wish but in the next incarnation he'll fullfuill their desire. All those Rishi, it is said, were born as Gopis and Rama in the form of Krishna gave them the Higest bliss possible in Dwait. See how much i know Warm Regards, Utpal , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote: > > Namaste Utpalji > > A very (belated) happy birth day to you too! - > > But i strongly feel that there will be much more depth in all that which we are not aware and events are just on the surface, which generally look at and form our opinions. > > I entirely agree with this proposition.I was merely looking and trying to analysing the epic from the scriptural point of view as it appears. And yes, these cannot have a solution, but if we discuss this with an open mind, all can gain from this. I am sure you would agree with this Utpalji. > > Let me put down some thoughts. > > I find idealism to be the central theme of Ramayana. In Mahabharata by comparison, aligning oneself with a higher Dharma beyond lesser dharmas is the aim. > > Being a master of all possible celestial weapons, Rama could have challenged Bali in a direct duel and killed him straight; for, the boon on Bali -- that he would automatically get half the strength of his opponent in course of any duel -- could not have affected the efficacy of celestial weapons. > > Rama could also have... > > (1) dried the Indian Ocean on the very first day when it did not give him way to cross over to Lanka; instead he invoked Shiva and prayed to the sea god till his patience couldn't sustain more; > > (2) killed Ravana with a Brahmastra right from the day and right from the spot where he stood at the time of coming to know who abducted Sita, without needing to get into a war. He had in his arsenal what can be deemed that era's version of an IRBM (Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile)! > > But he did none of the above because he thought there was a certain way established by dharma to go about each act. This principle was breached on three occasions. Killing of Bali in that manner was one IMO. > > Considering the above, it does not make sense to me why Rama killed Bali in that manner. > > -Regards > Rajarshi > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak wrote: > > > utpal pathak <vedic_pathak > Re: Rama as God > > Friday, 5 June, 2009, 1:08 PM > > Namaste Rajarshi, > > >at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at >that time and acted in the mould of any other human being. > > If you go through Yoga Vaasishtha, in the concluding part it is mentioned that Raama went in to Samadhi and Vasishtha Rishi then declares in front of the whole gathering that he is the Incarnation of all pervading Vishnu. > > I understand fully when Narasimha says that Rama realised his true nature later (During Vasishtha's discourse) and not from the birth. but once he realised, then he realised. i fail to appreciate your argument that he forgotten his true nature during some course of events and acted against dharma or Maryaada. Bali's episode is one amongst some more when Lors Rama's Maryaada and conduct is questioned. he is being criticised by some for Marich event, Sita's Agniparikha, Foresaking of Sita Mata etc... > > But i strongly feel that there will be much more depth in all that which we are not aware and events are just on the surface, which generally look at and form our opinions. however people also provide counter arguments to justify all the above events for which Rama is questioned. like when you mentioned Vaali's killing, i may say that to kill Vaali, there was no option but to Kill him the way he was killed. and if we see history of Vaali then his conduct was against Dharma towards his brother. However Rama also took the brunt of that Karma on himself in the later life during Krishna Incarnation. BUT what is the use of all these arguments? I have seen that (from my experience in Astrology as well as other areas) they never end. > > you said " we conclude that at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at that time " . i am sorry Rajarshi, but i am sure we can never conclude especially in case of Realised souls and when they are incarnations of Lord Vishnu. > > plese correct me if my understanding is wrong. > > Belated Happy birthday. > > Warm Regards, > > Utpal > > , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote: > > > > Namaste Utpalji > > > > 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. > > > > I have one issue with Lord Rama. The way he killed Bali. That indicates that the means is better than the end, which defeats the basic idealism of the Ramayana. This can be explained if we conclude that at that point of time Lord Rama was unaware of his divine nature at that time and acted in the mould of any other human being. > > > > -Regards > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra > > > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > utpal pathak <vedic_pathak@ ...> > > Re: Rama as God > > > > Friday, 5 June, 2009, 12:03 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Narasimha Garu, > > > > >Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind >principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the >duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. >Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over >duality. > > > > I fully appreciate your explanation here. however i still think that Lord Rama was capable of manipulating realm of Maya (Miracle worker) like Lord Krishna BUT the role assumed by him in that incarnation was of that 'Maryaada Purshottam' and that is why he demonstrated 'Maryaada' in every aspect of life.he abided himself by the general rules of society. But i do not think that he had not Mastered the Duality. where as Krishna didn't bound himself in any boundry whatsoever. > > > > *** > > Is it fruitful/useful in any ways to extend philosophies like comparing Krishna & Kali, Rama and Tara or Matangi. somehow i don't feel like reading and getting in to exercise of reading and imagine such concepts. no offense to any body but it is my question to myself. Narasimha garu ! why i am not inclined to such things. > > > > apologise if my thinking is wrong here. > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > Utpal > > > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste Rajarshi, > > > > > > Parasara equates Rama incarnation to Sun and Krishna incarnation to Moon. However, do not apply the Pingala-Ida (right-left) division in this case. When you have a two-fold division, then the solar/lunar or right/left or Pingala/Ida or devatas/pitris division comes into play. > > > > > > In the case of Vishnu's incarnation, there aren't just two. We have nine incarnations. So we are talking about a nine-fold division in this mapping. So we have all the nine planets in play. This has nothing to do with left or right channels. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > Within each person, Sun represents the soul, Moon represents the mind, Mars represents the energy and initiative, Mercury represents the learning ability, Jupiter represents the intellect, wisdom and judgment, Venus represents the spirit of enjoyment and bliss, Saturn represents the spirit of hard work or discipline. > > > > > > Vishnu represents pure sattwa. Rama is Vishnu's incarnation with Sun's nature. Krishna is Vishnu's incarnation with Moon's nature. Sun being the soul, Rama is from the soul principle of the cosmic being. Moon being the mind, Krishna is from the mind principle of the cosmic being. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > Dear Utpal, > > > > > > > I didn't understand above. Lord Rama was a Vishnu Avataar and proclaimed by our scriptures as a 'Purnaavataar' . > > > > > > > > how come then you state difference between their level of evolution? > > > > > > An arrow, a simple chain and a necklace with an elaborate work may all be made from the same 22 caret gold. You may call an object made with 22 caret gold to be purer than an object made with 14 caret gold. But if the arrow, chain and beautiful necklace are all made of 22 caret gold, they are all equally pure. Simply because the necklace required more work, it is nore purer. > > > > > > Similarly, Rama and Krishna were both from Vishnu - pure sattwa. One is not more " evolved " than the other. They just served different purposes (like the arrow and necklace made of the same 22 pure gold) and hence had different qualities. > > > > > > Like I said, earlier, Rama and Krishna are from the soul and mind principles of the cosmic being. Soul is not bothered about the duality and maya, but mind is. Rama was not a miracle worker. Krishna was the master of miracles and had complete control over duality. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > - > > > rajarshi nandy > > > > > > Thursday, June 04, 2009 1:57 AM > > > Re: Re: Rama as God > > > > > > Dear Narasmihaji > > > > > > Thank you for the reference to the Yoga Vashistam. Plus the Vishnu Puran also mentiones Lord Rama as an avatar. > > > > > > Though I could not convince the person I was discussing with, one thing sturck me as interesting. > > > > > > Lord Rama is the Surya Vamshi. Surya related to the right channel, the path of logic and discrimination and structure. This you had explanied in your mail on Dakshina Kali. > > > > > > Where as Lord Krishna was a Chandra Vamshi, of the lunar channel of intution/emotion etc. > > > As a corollary, can the path shown by Lord Rama be equated to the path of Dakshina Kali and that of Krishna as Vama Kali. > > > > > > -Regards > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > --- On Thu, 4/6/09, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> wrote: > > > > > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@> > > > Re: Rama as God > > > > > > Thursday, 4 June, 2009, 9:05 AM > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > In the episodes before Rama's birth, Valmiki clearly portrays him as an > > > avatara of Vishnu. > > > > > > In " Yoga Vaasishtham " , also written by Valmiki, Rama becomes depressed. > > > Vasishtha, in the presence of Vishwamitra and other rishis and gods, teaches > > > self-knowledge to Rama. Vasishtha reveals the true nature of Rama then and > > > Rama remains in samadhi. Vasishtha has to finally enter the Sushumna nadi of > > > Rama to disturb his samadhi and bring him back to senses. After that, Rama > > > knows who he is. > > > > > > Rama and Krishna were both avataras of Vishnu. Krishna knew it from the > > > beginning. In the case of Rama, sages like Vasishtha, Vishwamitra knew it > > > even before Rama's birth, but Rama himself did not know it in the beginning. > > > But he too knew it later. > > > > > > However, Krishna had complete mastery over the duality, while Rama did not. > > > Rama had to wade the dual world like normal people. Krishna could do any > > > manipulation of the dual world that he wanted. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > - > > > " rajarshi14 " <rajarshi14@ . co.in> > > > <> > > > Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:45 AM > > > Rama as God > > > > > > > Namaste > > > > > > > > In a discussion with another very learned individual, I was told this > > > > following statement: > > > > > > > > " Valmiki had projected Ram as a person who tried his level best to live by > > > > principles. He was still not God. Or, at least, he never realised he was > > > > an avatar (one who undergoes an 'avataran' (coming down to earth to serve > > > > a specific purpose of the society of his time). > > > > > > > > It was latter day writers like Tulsidas who conferred godhood on Ram. " > > > > > > > > Is this true? Is there any verse in the original Valmiki Ramayana which > > > > shows divinity (avatarahood) on Rama? > > > > > > > > -Regards > > > > Rajarshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with India Travel http://in.travel. / > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies./ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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