Guest guest Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Dear Sarbani, One comment on the " pure " vs " impure " considerations regarding planets as you broach on it: ALL planets are ever pure in their finest essence. After all, Parasara equated them to Vishnu's 10 incarnations. Thus, they cannot be impure. But, why do we look at some planets or some things associated with some planets as impure? I will answer in a second. The supreme cosmic being, who has all gunas and yet untouched by gunas and who does all actions of all beings in this world and yet untouched by any action, takes on various fundamental qualities and manifests as various planets. Thus, the innermost *essence* of each planet is basically a representation of the Infinite. It is ever pure. However, an outer core evolves within the framework of duality around the innermost essence of each planet. Though the finest innermost essence of the planet is ever pure, this outer core that develops around the planet may have various qualities and part of it may be seen as pure or part of it as impure, within the framework of duality. When people talk of planets, they are talking of the outer core and hence they view planets as predominantly pure or predominantly impure and various things represented by a planet as pure or impure. But remember that the innermost core essence is perfectly pure for each planet. You can reach the infinite by reaching the finest essence of ANY planet. * * * Statements from tantra like Krishna being " saakshaat " (literally) Kaalika or equating either with a planet may baffle some. However, please note that Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, who *understood by experience* the true nature of both Krishna and Kaali, said the same thing. He said that Krishna and Kaali are essentially the same. He said the difference between them is akin to the difference between Sun and Sun's rays. When Vishnu avataras (or mahavidyas) are equated to planets, please note that we are NOT talking about everything that the planet is associated with (i.e. outer core), but the innermost essence of the planet that is ever pure and a representation of the Infinite. THAT essence can be viewed as a Vishnu avatara as well as a mahavidya, with the difference between the two being quite subtle, like the difference between Sun and Sun's rays. * * * > (Narasimha) From the perspective of Venus (enjoyment), this duality needs to > be enjoyed and not run away from. The symbolism behind Chhinnamasta depicted > accompanied by a naked couple in copulation and associates drinking wine is > that nothing is impure and all is Brahman. That is the take of Venus > (enjoyment). > > Correctly you have pointed out that we should not be superficial. To say > that the symbolism behind the copulating couple in Chhinnamasta's > iconography is about enjoyment is highly superficial. You have missed the > boat here. Chhinnamasta is all about suppressing that. There have been many > works by renowned scholars in both east and the west on this. There is > surely nothing wrong with Venus. The problem occurs when Rahu is associated > Venus. That's when we talk of re-directing that undesirable carnal energy. > Chhinnamasta represents that unleashed carnality of Rahu. Venus on the other > hand is the purest of them all. After all he gets exalted in the sign of > maharishis. Venus has the capacity to bloom like the lotus from the cesspool > like mud of life. Whether Chhinnamasta is " all about suppressing that " or about rising above it can be discussed later, as that is secondary. But, even as you dismiss the symbolism as " highly superficial " , you ARE alluding to the symbolism when you finally say: > Chhinnamasta represents that unleashed carnality of Rahu. Venus on the other > hand is the purest of them all. It is Venus who actually shows carnal pleasures and not Rahu. Rahu shows materialism, but carnal pleasures ARE shown by Venus. And that does not make him impure. Let us not change the basics of astrology and make Rahu the karaka of sex. It is Venus. Moreover, as you pointed out, Chhinnamasta is also called Vajra Vairochani and is said to be lustrous and pure like a Vajra (diamond). Venus is the one associated with diamond. Munda maalaa tantra equates Chhinnamasta with Bhargava Rama, who is equated with Venus by Parasara. All the external symbolism around Chhinnamasta (sex and other pleasures) matches the external qualities associated with Venus. Her internal nature described nicely by you below (yogic powers, supreme bliss etc) also matches with Venus. Why then is suddenly Rahu brought into the picture? It should be Venus. * * * As Dattatreya's Avadhoota Gita teaches, actions are not what bind us, it is our ego (I-ness) identifying with (and attaching to) the actions that binds us. When performed without any attachment whatsoever, no action is " impure " . It is our sense that " I am doing " and " I am enjoying " that introduces impurity. When that is completely absent, one is ever pure. As actions provoking the basic instincts within us are so difficult to perform without an identification, a regular sadhaka is better off staying away from certain activities such as carnal pleasures. But it is *possible* to be established in Brahman even during such activities considered impure, as demonstrated by Dattatreya. That is the way of Venus. The way of Saturn is to silence the internal enemies and practice austerities. But the way of Venus is not to suppress so-called enjoyments, but to overcome the identification even when engaging in so-called enjoyments. After all, Venus is the teacher of demons. He is in the middle of the demons and yet remains perfectly pure being a great yogi. This is a metaphor for the fact that internally Venus is *in* one's passions and pleasures (including carnal ones) and yet he is absolutely pure. At the outer core, Venus shows all enjoyment within one, including carnal pleasures. These things may seem dirty, like Chhinnamasta's surroundings in iconography. If you go from the outer core to the innermost essence, then you catch hold of true essence of Venus, which is perfectly pure. And the glow of *that* blissful yogic essence is Chhinnamasta. Once you catch hold of the true essence of Venus (or Chhinnamasta), you are liberated. By perfecting various aspects of one's personality, i.e. by being one with the innermost essence (not the outer core) of that aspect of one's personality, one reaches the fine essence of various planets and one can become liberated. That is the point of mahavidyas. As I said before, all the planets are essentially ever pure, if you focus on their innermost essential nature and not the outward manifestation. * * * > The Todala Tantra gives a different co-relation: The list given by Todala tantra covers more than 10 goddesses and more than 10 gods. So it could be for something else. On the other hand, the list given by Munda Maalaa Tantra gives the dasa mahavidyas and dasavataras exactly and maps them. * * * > Mundamala Tantra is just one of the tantras, and not the top of the rung. It > would be interesting to see what the Mahanirvan, the Gyanarnava, the > Pranatoshini, the Mahanil, the Kularnava tantras and specially the Yamala > texts have to say on this. If you can quote anything interesting from any tantra text, we can discuss it. > I am delighted that you have at last succumbed to > Devi worship. I remember 2-3 years back in Boston you rejected all kinds of > Devi worship including the Sri Sri Chandi. Actually, I have been a Mahalakshmi worshipper for more than 15 years and not really away from Devi. The last time we met in Boston was 6-7 years ago. A lot happened since then. Grace of a realized master can work wonders, even with a fool. * * * Your long exposition on mahavidyas in mail 2 quoted below has nothing we have not heard before at SJC. But, the problem is that it has no unfirm binding thread. You go on to say a lot of disjoint things about a deity and suddenly one planet is tied in at the end. There is no flow of logic or uniform criteria used for linking planets. > protruding tongue and so on. Saturn is related to sins, longevity, > re-birth, the lord of the tithi amavasya, when she is worshipped; the > darkest of nights for cleansing the darkest of sins. It is in amavsaya, that There are two long paragraphs on Kaali, but only the above at the end tries to explain why Kaali should be shown by Saturn. Are you suggesting that only Kaali cleanses sins and others do not? Secondly, are other mahavidyas also worshipped on the tithis of their planets? After all, Ketu does not even have a tithi and he shows one mahavidya. Then what is the logic behind deducing the planet from the tithi in one case? Using one parameter to map to one planet in one case and another parameter to map to another planet in another case is inconsistent. > The Moon attains its full 16 kalas on purnima; the devi is then Shodashi. Why then doesn't Moon or Saturn (ruling Purnima) show Shodasi? > Resplendent, majestic and manifest. The queen of the three puras. Tri- puras > also represent the three aspects of the Kundalini shakti. She is the empress > of kundalini. Very much saguna. Prithvi tattva Mercury is associated with > her. Sri shakti; hence linked with the most saumya of the planets. She is Well, Mercury is NOT the most soumya of planets. In some charts, he can even be kroora. He simply behaves like his company. In any case, again there is no logic behind the conclusion. Why is " prithvi tattva " Mercury associated with her? What about the tattvas of planets in other cases? Is " prithvi tattva " the only " very much saguna " thing? Is jala tattva or vaayu tattva nirguna? > It is Chhinnamasta who has the power to cut the knots of > Rahu and release the sadhaka from his bonds to enable his journey towards > Moksha. Again, the above conclusion comes after a really long exposition and the conclusion has nothing to do with the exposition. Do you mean to say that other mahavidyas cannot cut the knots of Rahu? * * * > The Planet-Mahavidya co-relation is > not SJC's version. It is used by many pandits and priests. Yes, I am aware that it is not an SJC invention. But it does not seem to be backed by any scriptures and only backed by a relatively modern astrology text. Several people may have been influenced by Bhattacharya's text. Sarbani, you follow Sri Achyutananda. Sri Achyutananda said, according to a paper by Sanjay ji a decade ago, that a kali yuga sub-cycle within the current kali yuga ends around 2000 AD and a satya yuga sub-cycle starts. Isn't it possible that the kali yuga sub-cycle corrupted some knowledge and some of it will be cleaned up in the current sub-cycle? * * * Dear Vishnu, > 1) Can any of you provide a direct quote from any of the 64 authentic > tantras that relates maha vidyas to planets? I cannot. However, I have given a quote from an authentic tantra regarding the linking of dasavataras with dasa mahavidyas and we are all aware of Parasara's quote equating planets with dasavataras. The best I can suggest is combining the two. Planets are secondary here. The key is to understand the tattva (essence) of mahavidyas. Understand what kind of supreme liberating knowledge each mahavidya represents. Though using the correct planets helps you understand the tattva better, we need NOT think in terms of planets. Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org Mail 1 being replied to: > Dear Narsimha, > > (Narasimha) Friends, there may be an outcry to my writings from astrologers > used to a different planet-mahavidya map (which is NOT sanctioned by any > scripture and yet popular today in some circles). I may not be able to > respond to all the mails. > > An outcry??? Regarding what?? No, no you have got the wrong end of the stick > here. The planet-mahavidya mapping is used by many priests and pundits who > are in no way associated with SJC. They even have them up in their websites. > So please do not start an agenda of saying this is " SJC " 's > version/unsanctioned etc. Let us instead have an intellectual theological > debate, which is far more interesting. YOU can say that though in practice > most priests and books follow a certain norm of planet-mahavidya > co-relation, but on reflection a different order appeals to you and you are > sharing that with us. > > Mundamala Tantra is just one of the tantras, and not the top of the rung. It > would be interesting to see what the Mahanirvan, the Gyanarnava, the > Pranatoshini, the Mahanil, the Kularnava tantras and specially the Yamala > texts have to say on this. I am delighted that you have at last succumbed to > Devi worship. I remember 2-3 years back in Boston you rejected all kinds of > Devi worship including the Sri Sri Chandi. > > Mahavidya is THE supreme knowledge. When you write: > > (Narasimha) From the perspective of Venus (enjoyment), this duality needs to > be enjoyed and not run away from. The symbolism behind Chhinnamasta depicted > accompanied by a naked couple in copulation and associates drinking wine is > that nothing is impure and all is Brahman. That is the take of Venus > (enjoyment). > > Correctly you have pointed out that we should not be superficial. To say > that the symbolism behind the copulating couple in Chhinnamasta's > iconography is about enjoyment is highly superficial. You have missed the > boat here. Chhinnamasta is all about suppressing that. There have been many > works by renowned scholars in both east and the west on this. There is > surely nothing wrong with Venus. The problem occurs when Rahu is associated > Venus. That's when we talk of re-directing that undesirable carnal energy. > Chhinnamasta represents that unleashed carnality of Rahu. Venus on the other > hand is the purest of them all. After all he gets exalted in the sign of > maharishis. Venus has the capacity to bloom like the lotus from the cesspool > like mud of life. At a deeper level, this blooming of the lotus is really > the blooming of our soul, the awakening. That is why the Sharadatilaka > tantra advises us to worship Kamalatmika in water as the sun rises. In her > mantra she is addressed as Jagatprasutyai ...the one who gives birth h to > this world. I think you need to work a little more on this, and I am sure > Mother will show the way. There are fantastic works done on the mahavidyas > by many exponents from the different gurukuls of India, though of course no > one writes the really deeper level experiences which can only stem from > sadhana. > > Incidentally, there are many quiet members in these lists who are extremely > spiritual and any of whom have years of experience in devi worship. I appeal > to them to share their experiences with us. > > Best Regards, > > Sarbani Rath Mail 2 being replied to: sohamsa , " Sarbani Rath " <sarbani wrote: > > Hare Rama Krishna > > Dear Narasimha, > > The Avatar-Mahavidya co-relation is for a different purpose. The Todala > Tantra gives a different co-relation: > > Nîla Târâ – Matsya > Bagalâmukhî – Kûrma > Dhumâvatî - Varâha > Chinnamastâ – Narasimha > Bhuvaneshvarî - Vâmana > Tripurasundarî (Shodasî) – Parashurâma > Mâtangî – Râma > Bhairavî – Balabhadra > Mahâkâlî – Krishna > Kamalâ – Buddha > Durgâ – Kalki > > They may be other co-relations as well. The Planet-Mahavidya co-relation is > not SJC’s version. It is used by many pandits and priests. Some of them have > it in their web sites, and they are not linked with SJC in any way. I don’t > think this is the issue here. The issue is to understand the different > schemes of relations between the Avatars and the Mahavidyas, for which one > needs to delve deep into the Mahavidyas and understand these various > schemes. I just wanted to share a few points about some of the Mahavidyas > for deeper reflection. > > Sadashiva/Mahakal lying beneath Kali is the nirguna, Purusha from whom the > gunatmika Prakriti, in the form of Kali, has sprung. Kali’s wild dance is > the lila of srishti. Kali’s foot, touching Sadashiva, signifies the > connection between Purusha and Prakriti; that it is the same Brahma who can > be at once nirguna (Purusha/Sadashiva) and saguna (Prakriti/Kali). The > imagery is the personification of Shivashaktiaikya or Prakritipurushaaikya. > The Avatar-Mahavidya connection depicts this aspect. Narayanchandra also > adheres to this belief. Kali holds the power to severe in one stroke, with > her khagda, the bondage of the atma with the body and mind. Thakur speaks of > his visit to Varanasi, where at Manikarnika, he saw clearly Kali moving from > corpse to corpse, detatching the soul. Although Kali is the gunatmika form > of the Brahma, in the spectrum of the forms of the Divine Feminine, she is > nirguna. She burns your sins by ‘eating’ the fruits of all your karmas, > thereby making you ready for that bandhna mukti. A special puja of hers is > the Phalaharini Kali Puja, performed without fail by Thakur each year (and > continues in the RKM Maths and Missions to this day); a very auspicious Kali > Puja, where she ‘eats’ all your karma phalas. The study of her imagery is > vast; if you go into the details about her skull garland, which represents > the varnas- mundamala is actually varnamala-; why her teeth is pressing her > protruding tongue and so on. Saturn is related to sins, longevity, > re-birth, the lord of the tithi amavasya, when she is worshipped; the > darkest of nights for cleansing the darkest of sins. It is in amavsaya, that > Mahakal and Mahakali are united in a permanent embrace; in the aloneness of > the deepest of dark nights. In tantra, amaa-kalaa is known as Prakriti. A > Moon bereft of any kalaas. (The other divine form who rermoves your sins > instantly is Krishna). > > To reach Kali you must cross the bhava sagar; the ocean of karmas, the ocean > of sansar filled with the waves of our illusory attachments. Tara helps us > to cross over this sorrowful ocean, so that we can reach Kali. Hence Tarini > – she who helps us cross the bhava sagar. She is the shakti of Brihaspati > and if you read the Tararahasyam you will see that she is worshipped with > the vagbhava bija aim. (Although her mula bija is the pranava). She has > emerged from the bija Hum, by which the evils of the sansar are suppressed. > Without her strength you cannot cross that ocean. Her various forms – > Ugratara, Ekajata, Nila Sarasvati – explains further, details of the layers > of this shakti. One of Nila Sarasvati’s mantra is Aim Aim Vada Vada > Vagvidini Svaha; associations of Tara with the Guru, with knowledge. She > bestows the knowledge of crossing the ocean. > > The Moon attains its full 16 kalas on purnima; the devi is then Shodashi. > Resplendent, majestic and manifest. The queen of the three puras. Tri- puras > also represent the three aspects of the Kundalini shakti. She is the empress > of kundalini. Very much saguna. Prithvi tattva Mercury is associated with > her. Sri shakti; hence linked with the most saumya of the planets. She is > Mantratmika. Because Mercury is related to learning; Tripurasundari is > worshipped in all guru-shishya paramparas. Incidentally she is worshipped on > Thurdays. Thakur performed the shodasa upachar puja to ma as Shodasi. > Although Ma has said, “Know that I am Bagalaâ€. (In the chart provided in her > biography by Swami Gambhirananda, she is Karka lagna with lagna lord and AK > Moon conjoined Mars). > > Devi Chhinnnamasta is the thunderbolt, the streak of lightening, which is > the shakti of Virocana, the Supreme Self, the luminosity of the Primordial > Prakasa. That is why she is Vajravairocani, the glow of the Paramatma which > flashes like a lightening and shatters the skies. She is yellow and shines > like a million suns, the glory of which destroys all desires and makes her a > Mahayogini, the supreme exponent of yogic powers and like Vajra, pure and > blazing. She epitomizes self-control by conquering sexual and selfish > desires and transforming that energy into yogic energy. Hence she is > Yogamaya, Yogamargapradayini, the acme of yogic force. The blood rushing > from below her feet to her head depicts this transformation of kunadalini > energy from its somnabulence to its blossoming through the dint of yoga and > the act of self control. Be the energy below the control of sexual desire of > Rati and Kama, or the transformation of the eternal yearning for Shiva under > her feet, both are channelized into a blazing, yogic might, which makes her > like the Vajra, untainted and pure. This primal energy rushes up her body to > meet the thousand petalled lotus in her head, culminating in the bliss of > the union with Parama Shiva. Hence she is the epitome of spiritual power > which every sadhaka seeks to acquire. The energy is also channelized into > love as the blood nourishes her devotees on her either side, who were hungry > for nourishment. So she is the food (bhojanam), the nourisher (bhokta) and > the eater (bhojyam) as she also drinks her own blood while feeding her > devotees. These two devotees are Rajas and Tamas, who could not escape the > bind of duality, and are therefore fed by the secondary channels or nadis, > Ira and Pingala. Thus they are also known by these names. The Devi as the > Sushumna, depicts Satva guna and she is the one who is able to cut the binds > of the chakras and clear the passage for the blood to rush though and unite > with Shiva in the sahasrara and then gush down to drench the sadhaka in the > bliss of the union. As the destroyer of all bonds, and the means of > achieving liberation through supreme yogic powers, Chhinnamasta is the > embodiment of Moksha. > > Rahu, the greatest of bonders, the cause of re-birth, grips the sadhaka in > its vicious coils. From its basest form of extreme greed and carnal desires, > through the treachery and trickery of its twisted mind, it seeks to engulf > all that comes before his path. Even when a person is able to avoid such > engulfment, it ensures that his path towards the union with Parama Shiva is > strewn with hurdles and makes it difficult for the sadhaka to prise himself > from his grasp. It is Chhinnamasta who has the power to cut the knots of > Rahu and release the sadhaka from his bonds to enable his journey towards > Moksha. Chhinnamasta therefore is the link, which allows one to travel the > trajectory from Rahu (bondage) to Ketu (liberation), wherein all desires are > dissolved. Having cut the bonds, Devi herself absorbs the poison and > transforms herself to Dhoomavati, the widow. > > > > Best Regards, > > Sarbani Rath Mail 3 being replied to: > Dear Narasimha, Visti, Sarbani et al, > > Namaste, > > Could all of you please tone down the rhetoric so that we can discuss the > issue at hand. I have a few basic questions and hope atleast one among you > can answer it/them! > > 1) Can any of you provide a direct quote from any of the 64 authentic > tantras that relates maha vidyas to planets? > > 2) Who do tantras stop after mapping/relating maha vidyas to dasa avataras? > > 3) Why hasn't Parasara related grahas to maha vidyas, where as he found it > so convenient to relate them to dasa avataras? > > warm regards, > Vishnu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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