Guest guest Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Dear Kamesh, > I have been lurking on this list and the vedic wisdom group for a long > time. I feel like the time is ripe for me to participate a little bit. Welcome to the lists as a contributor! I hope you will prove to be a worthy grandson. > a) one used ones " free will " to apply the remedy and therefore as a > result of applying the remedy actually worked and the pain went away > > *OR* > > b) one was *fated* to apply the remedy (which worked in this case) at > that particular time just when the pain was *fated* to disappear anyway. > > I don't know if the above question is answerable. Or it could be a combination of the two and not just one, i.e. c) one's fate gave enough freedom to one's individual will. One used this freedom fully and exercised individual will to apply the remedy. In other words, fate did not force him to apply the remedy, but only *allowed* him to do so. The individual will applied the remedy. So it worked and pain went away. Let me ask the philosopher in you one fundamental question: What was the original seed of the fate? * * * I want to say the following, at the risk of confusing some people. At the deepermost level, all individuals are parts of the supreme cosmic being. Thus, individual will is part of the supreme cosmic will. For one who overcame individual ego, merged in the supreme and acting in the world as an observer-actor, i.e. for a jeevanmukta, there is nothing called individual will. The distinction between external and internal and between past and present is not there. All is god. For such a person, the distinction between fate and free is also non-existent. Universal will is running everything and there is no individual will. But, those who do have an individual ego see the universe from that lens. To them, past and present as well as internal and external are quite distinct concepts. Hence fate (past actions seeming as an external factor and binding one now) and individual will (current actions seeming as an internal factor) seem quite distinct and there is a causal relationship between them. A lot of conundrums of Hinduism are a result of indiscriminately mixing up concepts relevant to duality (the perspective of a bound person) with concepts relevant to non-duality (the perspective of a liberated person). Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org sohamsa , " kamesh_pemmaraju " <kamesh_pemmaraju wrote: > > Dear Narsimha: > > I have been lurking on this list and the vedic wisdom group for a long > time. I feel like the time is ripe for me to participate a little bit. > > My late grandfather Shri UG Krishnamurti (a well-known philosopher of > his time) used to say that, in the ultimate analysis, most of our > actions are performed to reduce our misery or pain and to increase our > happiness or pleasure. > > In fact, if we had any choice, many of us would want nothing less than > permanent happiness and therefore strive endlessly (whether it is a > material path or a spiritual path) to achieve that state. > I think this is a fundamental trusim because, arguably, this relentless > striving for happiness is a condition that is true for the majority of > human beings except perhaps for those lucky souls who have managed by > God's grace to go beyond duality and therefore do not differentiate > between opposites: good, bad, pain, pleasure, suffering, happiness etc. > > If I were to take the above fundamental premise and interpret it in the > context of the Theory of Karma, it leads to the following argument which > should be valid for most people: > > Actions one performs to achieve permanent happiness (or its other more > simpler mundane form: reducing pain and increasing pleasure), by its > very definition, involves one to employ ones personal identity (or ego) > to identity oneself as the doer of the action. The moment one identifies > oneself as the doer of the action, the theory of Karma says that one has > to experience whatever reaction that action initiates. One's Horoscope > indicates all those reactions that are in store for one to experience > during this lifetime. And ones actions in this lifetime are again > reactions to those reactions from the past because the experiencing > structure and ego is still looking for permanent happiness thus > propagating the vicious cycle. This is the merry-go-around one is stuck > on unless somehow the " doer " disappears. > > So *I* think (this is totally a personal opinion based on the above > reasoning), for most " normal " people living in a illusory world that is > dominated by pairs of opposites but at the same time seeking permanence, > there isn't really any such thing as Free Will. > > *I* interpret Free Will (Capital letters) as a Pure and Perfect Action > that is not a reaction to anything nor is it any action that is geared > towards endlessly striving for some mythic permanent state of happiness > or bliss. > > Of course, there are many actions that one can take to reduce suffering > or to experience some sort of temporary happiness. The suffering or pain > may well be a karmic fruit that is to be experienced in this lifetime > and I don't see any reason why one cannot take specific action whether > it be applying a specific vedic remedy based on the wonderful science of > Jyotish or simply going to a doctor to get a drug or something like > that. To the extent one acts to get those remedies applied, one is > exercising their " free will " (small letters and quotes!). > > However, there is another underlying fate vs free will question even > within the above example. Let's say one applied the remedy and the pain > went away. > > Did the pain go away because: > > a) one used ones " free will " to apply the remedy and therefore as a > result of applying the remedy actually worked and the pain went away > > *OR* > > b) one was *fated* to apply the remedy (which worked in this case) at > that particular time just when the pain was *fated* to disappear anyway. > > I don't know if the above question is answerable. In case the pain > doesn't go away, then the usual answer is you didn't apply your free > will correctly or with the proper intensity. That may be true, one could > put in a lot of " free will " effort to finally make the suffering go > away (at least temporarily until something else comes along!). In any > case, the main point still holds in that one keeps striving with various > actions to reduce this suffering. Nothing wrong with it except that it > adds fuel to the never ending Karmic cycle. > > What if one did nothing but simply suffered through the pain. Would that > burn off the Karma? Perhaps it will burn off that particular Karma, but > any new action performed in any direction with any self-identification > (which is inevitable when one is seeking something) will again progagate > the cycle all over again. It seems like there is no way to get off the > Tiger's back! > > --Kamesh > > > sohamsa , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote: > > > > Dear Freedom, > > > > It is good to hear from you. > > > > Just for the record, I want to state that I agree with Freedom's > point. The charts of other people involved also matter. The charts of > countries, political parties, opponents and supporting leaders also > matter. I have no disagreement there. > > > > * * * > > > > But this is orthogonal to my main point. > > > > Though we are including more factors above, we are still talking of > horoscopes, i.e. static snapshots of accumulated actions (destiny). My > question is: Does destiny get modified during one's lifetime due to > one's newer actions in that life? Is there a set of possibilities in > one's life and does the exact result vary within the set of > possibilities based on one's actions, or are the exact results fixed? > > > > If you pick the latter, the next question is: Do you then believe in > remedies? What are you trying to do with remedies? > > > > * * * > > > > > If I remember correctly Narasimha, you had accurately > > > predicted that Bush would win a second term based > > > on the chart of United States. > > > > Yes, I predicted that in 2004, mostly using the charts of Bush and > Kerry and NOT using US chart. In fact, I do not trust any US chart out > there. I tried several of them, but was not satisfied with any of them. > > > > But I did use mundane charts like the lunar new year chart and, more > importantly, placement of planets in an eclipse chart in Washington DC > just before the 2004 elections. I suppose that is what you are referring > to. > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > > Spirituality: > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > > > > sohamsa , Freedomji freeflowaum@ wrote: > > > > > > Hare Rama Krsna > > > > > > " It is my personal observation that the success rate in high profile > political predictions is less than in regular predictions like marriage, > job, childbirth etc in " regular " charts. " > > > > > > I agree with the fact that high profile people/politicians are > harder to make predictions about. I wouldn't agree that free-will is the > cause of this. Instead, my observation has been more that the politician > is relating to a representative body. In a battle, it doesn't matter > only what the individual's chart says, it also matters what the > opositions chart says-they could both be in good dashas- but one is > better. In becoming the elected leader of a people, the karma of the > country as a whole influences the outcome. A country destined to poverty > will elect a leader who will take them there, or whatevere the karma may > be. The leader is only representing some larger karma. I have noticed > that the chart of a president severely impacts a country's events, as > well as a country's chart severely impacts a presidents life. > > > > > > If I remember correctly Narasimha, you had accurately predicted that > Bush would win a second term based on the chart of United States. > > > > > > In this way, a politician or high profile personality is more > controlled and influenced by larger bodies of karma outside themselves, > and these need to be taken into account when making predictions. I could > only imagine if Obama did everything he wanted to do, but he is so > limited and controlled by the ideologies of two political parties- and > the job of making each of them happy. > > > > > > Namah Sivaya > > > Freedom > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao pvr@ > > > vedic astrology ; sohamsa ; > > > > Monday, May 25, 2009 7:11:40 PM > > > Horoscope, free will and high profile charts (Re: > Your prediction on Chiranjeevi) > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > I will share some freewheeling thoughts, in response to your > question. I am cc'ing this to some astrology lists after removing your > name from the mail. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > For those who are unaware of the prediction referred to below, here > is a little background. > > > > > > I had predicted in print in 2000 that Telugu film actor Chiranjeevi > would come into politics in 2007-2009 and and enjoy some political > power. At the time of that prediction, there were no such indications on > the ground. But he did come into politics in the same timeframe. The > initial talk was in 2007, he finally formed a party in 2008 and > elections were in 2009. Though his party did badly, he was elected as a > legislator (MLA) in May 2009. > > > > > > Thus, the original prediction was quite successful. However, I upped > the ante last year by suggesting that Chiranjeevi' s party would do well > in 2009 elections. Though I was not specific regarding his level of > success and did not predict that he would become the Chief Minister, I > was honestly expecting his party to do better than they managed. Thus, > the followup of my original prediction is a failure. > > > * * * > > > > > > It is my personal observation that the success rate in high profile > political predictions is less than in regular predictions like marriage, > job, childbirth etc in " regular " charts. > > > > > > In some cases, the reason is that the birthdata is not accurate and > yet we are eager to make predictions. But sometimes we make bad > predictions with good data too. Of course, it can be a human error in > judging various factors. However, that human error seems to be a little > more common in high profile political predictions than in regular > predictions. What could be the reason? > > > > > > I wonder if the factor of free will that is left out of astrology > plays a bigger role in political charts. I will try to think loud and > elaborate what I mean. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > One's birth chart contains the list of actions committed in previous > lives using one's free will that are to give their reactions in this > life. However, as life goes on, one accumulates newer actions committed > in THIS life using one's free will. What happens at any point of time in > one's life is a function of ALL actions committed by one until that > point of time, INCLUDING the actions committed in THIS life until now. > Some key actions committed using one's free will in THIS life, > especially at important crossroads in life, should impact the life > events from then onwards. > > > > > > Many people are weighed down by too many karmas and always playing a > catchup. In other words, destiny (sum of the actions of previous lives > which are to give a reaction now) is too weighty and free will in this > life has little scope. When the options available for the free will in > this life are limited, there may not be significant actions using free > will and hence the modifications to destiny based on actions of this > life may not be big enough. Thus, horoscope may be sufficient to predict > events. > > > > > > However, highly popular, successful and high profile public > personalities may have less restrictions and more options available for > their free will. With their free will being more free and powerful, the > actions committed by their free will may have a higher weightage. As we > are able to see only their destiny in the horoscope (free will exercise > upto birth) and unable to factor in how free will was exercised in this > life until now, we are perhaps handicapped in our predictions. > > > > > > Whether a political leader is in limelight and becomes MP or the > leader of opposition in parliament or the Prime Minister, he is enjoying > some political power. Previous karmas placed him in a position to enjoy > that power. To predict the specific degree of power and make an accurate > prediction, is the horoscope sufficient always? Could the exercise of > free will in this life until now make a difference in some high profile > charts? > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > I am just thinking loud here. Rather than posing a question and > answering it myself, I will let learned friends ponder on this for > themselves.. . > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- > --------- > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- > --------- > > > > > > - > > > > > > Dear PVR garu, > > > > > > Namaste. > > > > > > If you don't mind, could you please look in to why your prediction > on Chiranjeevi failed ? > > > > > > I am not asking this question with a wrong intent. I wanted to > understand if > > > 1) It is a human error (May be you ignored some data ? ) > > > 2) You still can't understand why it failed and you think that was > the correct prediction to be best of your knowledge. > > > > > > I had a 50-50 faith on astrology 3 years ago and after coming to > know about you / your lessons I developed strong faith and I thought all > the failures are not because of astrology but because of astrologer's > lack of knowledge. > > > > > > If it is case #1, it is okay. But if it is case #2, then we have a > problem. We will have to conclude that the Jyotish knowledge that is > available to us at this age is very limited and may not be accurate. > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > <deleted> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Dear Narasimha ji, I have read the great article about the free-will/fate and have some understanding of why/how current free-will may/may not counter-act result of 'past free-will'/'current-fate'. But, this has got me into egg-chicken problem. Can you please kindly relate free-will/fate at grandeur level? If we go to the root cause of all the causes..When the current universe came into existance at the moment of big-bang (or maybe universe already existed, it just changed its form at that moment so that it became perceptable to us mortal) , was it resulting from free-will of its own fate from possibly last grand resolution of the universe? Whos free-will or fate was it? Is it cumulative free-will(resolve) of all souls that came into existence then or the cumulative fate of all the soul from past universe? how did the first karma/action or first reaction was concieved by a soul without an external stimulus? Also, what is the extent of fate/free will in anybody's life? Is taking each breath is a result of free will or fate? We doing yagna/homam is it free-will excercised or was it fated? How can somebody differentiate between any moment being parcel from fate or a new act? of it has to be simultaneous all the time? Thanks for all your sincere thoughts! Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Namaste, > But, this has got me into egg-chicken problem. When the chickens come to roost, there is not much you can do about it. The best you can do is to ensure that the eggs you are laying now are good. The key is to realize that the chickens that come to roost are NOT laying the eggs. YOU are. * * * > Also, what is the extent of fate/free will in anybody's life? Every conscious action of yours at every instant is done by your individual will. It is NOT forced by your fate. Fate does not force ANY actions. All actions are performed by YOU now. But the problem is that the possibilities in front of you are sometimes badly limited by the fate. But always people have more options before them than they think there are. Because fate *inclines* them to look at some options and ignore some others, they consider fewer options than they actually have. Fate creates circumstances under which one's individual will performs actions. The first step for spiritual progress is to realize that YOU are responsible for the actions of your individual will. The second step is to not cling on to your actions and let things go as soon as the action is over ( " krishnaarpanamastu " ), i.e. do the action with attachment, but develop detachment as soon as the action is over and move on to the next action. Often people spend a lot of mental energy on an action that is already done, wondering whether it will give a specific result or not, whether a specific result that came is because of it or not, why people are reacting in a particular way etc etc. The mental energy spent on an action *after* the action is completely performed is often much more than the mental energy spent on an action while it is performed. All that shapes fate later. As it is very difficult to perform actions with detachment as Krishna teaches, I suggest performing actions with attachment, but let them go and detach yourself *after* they are done and not spend any more mental energy analyzing or speculating on . The final step is to develop detachment even as you are performing actions. There is a part of you that is permanent and indestructible. It is watching all actions being performed. Attach your self-awareness to that part of you. Then your body may be engaged in several actions, but *you* are merely an observer. But then, this is not easy. But what I said above is easy. In fact, we do say " Krishnaarpanamastu " (may it be offered to Krishna) at the end of every ritual. We should do that with all actions. Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org - <kshroum Wednesday, June 10, 2009 4:05 PM Re: Horoscope, free will and high profile charts > Dear Narasimha ji, > I have read the great article about the free-will/fate and have some > understanding of why/how current free-will may/may not counter-act result > of 'past free-will'/'current-fate'. > But, this has got me into egg-chicken problem. Can you please kindly > relate free-will/fate at grandeur level? If we go to the root cause of all > the causes..When the current universe came into existance at the moment of > big-bang (or maybe universe already existed, it just changed its form at > that moment so that it became perceptable to us mortal) , was it resulting > from free-will of its own fate from possibly last grand resolution of the > universe? > Whos free-will or fate was it? Is it cumulative free-will(resolve) of all > souls that came into existence then or the cumulative fate of all the soul > from past universe? how did the first karma/action or first reaction was > concieved by a soul without an external stimulus? > > Also, what is the extent of fate/free will in anybody's life? Is taking > each breath is a result of free will or fate? We doing yagna/homam is it > free-will excercised or was it fated? > How can somebody differentiate between any moment being parcel from fate > or a new act? of it has to be simultaneous all the time? > > Thanks for all your sincere thoughts! > > Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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