Guest guest Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 Dear satish, A friend of mine has given me some portions of Mahakala Samhita and Kali Karpura Tantra which i am glancing through during my late hours study at night after returning from office. I was going through Kali Karpura stotra which was composed by Mahakala. My curious eyes fell on the 19th sloka of the Karpura Stora which runs like this: ******************************************************* sa lomAsthi svairam palalamapi mArjAramasite paramchauShTram maiSham naramahiShayoShchAgamapi vA balim te pujAyAmayi vitaratAm martyavasatAm satAm siddhih sarvA pratipadamapUrva prabhavati ......//19 ******************************************************** A part of the sloka ie., *naramahiShayoShchAgamapi vA balim* listing out different types of Bali for the siddhi of the Karpura Stotra mentions about *Nara Bali* or human sacrifice. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY SUCH SACRIFICES ARE MENTIONED AND HOW FAR THEY ARE RELEVANT. I have heard about the human sacrifice mentioned in Veda where the victorious king conducts. Instead of executing or giving death sentence to the opponent king who lost in the war, a human sacrifice is conducted with the chants of Purusha Sukta and the enemy is given salvation by offering him as a part of Nara Medha. Is the nara bali mentioned in Mahakala samhita something similar to this of veda. Why such horrific rituals are mentioned in Kali Tantra and elsewhere? regs, sriram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: > My curious eyes fell on the 19th sloka of the Karpura Stora which >runs like this: > > ******************************************************* > sa lomAsthi svairam palalamapi mArjAramasite > paramchauShTram maiSham naramahiShayoShchAgamapi vA > balim te pujAyAmayi vitaratAm martyavasatAm > satAm siddhih sarvA pratipadamapUrva prabhavati ......//19 > ******************************************************** > > A part of the sloka ie., *naramahiShayoShchAgamapi vA balim* >listing out different types of Bali for the siddhi of the Karpura >Stotra mentions about *Nara Bali* or human sacrifice. > > I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY SUCH SACRIFICES ARE MENTIONED AND HOW FAR >THEY ARE RELEVANT. > There are other places where such things are mentioned. Typically such bali-s are mentioned in the context of kAmya karma-s and never as nitya karma-s. My understanding is, all that tantra says in such contexts is that if you would like to perform a certain kAmya karma to acheive a certain result, then nara or whatever bali is to be given. It is not a generic prescription which everyone is supposed to strictly adhere to. Furthermore, you can give something as bali only when you own it. So, in general only kings indulge in such things during an impending war or when a revolution is about to happen. Those who dont like these will say it is gross and those who have respect for these rituals will ask, " Is it not a good thing to sacrifice one and prevent a war or a revolution " . So you get the picture. > I have heard about the human sacrifice mentioned in Veda where the >victorious king conducts. Instead of executing or giving death >sentence to the opponent king who lost in the war, a human sacrifice >is conducted with the chants of Purusha Sukta and the enemy is given > salvation by offering him as a part of Nara Medha. Such ancient rituals exist and have been abandoned over time. I personally do not pay much attention to them as I dont need them. Same can be said about the pashu in tantra. It was offered to kAlI..so it reaches salvation too..? > Why such horrific rituals are mentioned in Kali Tantra and >elsewhere? Ask parameshvara They may have their appropriate uses and contexts but irrelevant in today's world. The main thing to remember is, they are mentioned just like an experiment..if you want this ..do this etc. I dont think narabali is prescribed as something that is to be followed by everyone, everyday. Or one can give fancy explanations like it actually means the 6 enemies like kAma krodha etc.. yeah heard it... it is getting boring and often such explanations are flaky, and dont look solid. Anyway, narabali is something prescribed to be done daily in the form of jihAd in Islam.. so we are far better. Arent we? The book of Leviticus of the old bible also has such bali-s involving, birds, beasts etc for cure against leprosy and other things. It adopted these from the old pagan religions I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 >I have heard about the human sacrifice mentioned in Veda where the victorious king conducts. Instead of executing or giving death sentence to the opponent king who lost in the war, a human sacrifice is conducted with the chants of Purusha Sukta and the enemy is given salvation by offering him as a part of Nara Medha. Can you please provide (if you or anybody does have) reference about this in Veda? Which Veda -Rig? It will be a surprise. But if it is in Y or A, one can go by the explanationss/justifications outlined by Satish. Of all things, if Purusha Sukta is used for a bali then it would reflect the degeneration of society or scholarship that had added this procedure to whichever veda it is in. -gopal --- On Mon, 6/22/09, sriram <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: sriram <sriram_sapthasathi Nara Bali in Kali Karupra Stotra Monday, June 22, 2009, 8:10 AM Dear satish, A friend of mine has given me some portions of Mahakala Samhita and Kali Karpura Tantra which i am glancing through during my late hours study at night after returning from office. I was going through Kali Karpura stotra which was composed by Mahakala. My curious eyes fell on the 19th sloka of the Karpura Stora which runs like this: ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ******* sa lomAsthi svairam palalamapi mArjAramasite paramchauShTram maiSham naramahiShayoShchAg amapi vA balim te pujAyAmayi vitaratAm martyavasatAm satAm siddhih sarvA pratipadamapUrva prabhavati ......//19 ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ******** A part of the sloka ie., *naramahiShayoShchA gamapi vA balim* listing out different types of Bali for the siddhi of the Karpura Stotra mentions about *Nara Bali* or human sacrifice. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY SUCH SACRIFICES ARE MENTIONED AND HOW FAR THEY ARE RELEVANT. I have heard about the human sacrifice mentioned in Veda where the victorious king conducts. Instead of executing or giving death sentence to the opponent king who lost in the war, a human sacrifice is conducted with the chants of Purusha Sukta and the enemy is given salvation by offering him as a part of Nara Medha. Is the nara bali mentioned in Mahakala samhita something similar to this of veda. Why such horrific rituals are mentioned in Kali Tantra and elsewhere? regs, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 <<<<<<those who have respect for these rituals will ask, " Is it not a good thing to sacrifice one and prevent a war or a revolution>>>>>. I am sure this statement would not come from the heart of the person who is going to be sacrificed unless he is a suicide bomber.......... <<<<<<They may have their appropriate uses and contexts but irrelevant in today's world. The main thing to remember is, they are mentioned just like an experiment..if you want this ..do this etc. I dont think narabali is prescribed as something that is to be followed by everyone, everyday>>>>>>>>>> Yeah true. The chaturdasa patala of Sarvollasa Tantra deals entirely with the 3 types of bali: Satvika, Rajasika & Tamasika. Pashu bali falls under 2nd category. Even though nara bali is not mentioned, it says it was prevalent in krita yuga and banned in Kali yuga. <<<<<<<Or one can give fancy explanations like it actually means the 6 enemies like kAma krodha etc.. yeah heard it... it is getting boring and often such explanations are flaky, and dont look solid>>>>>>>>>> Sir John Woodroof has already mentioned these fanciful explanations in his commentary on Karpura Stotra. So, even if we are using *Ctrl C* & *Ctrl V* of our keyboards, poor Avalon has to be blamed for that!!!! with regs, sriram , " Satish " <satisharigela wrote: > > , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@> wrote: > > My curious eyes fell on the 19th sloka of the Karpura Stora which >runs like this: > > > > ******************************************************* > > sa lomAsthi svairam palalamapi mArjAramasite > > paramchauShTram maiSham naramahiShayoShchAgamapi vA > > balim te pujAyAmayi vitaratAm martyavasatAm > > satAm siddhih sarvA pratipadamapUrva prabhavati ......//19 > > ******************************************************** > > > > A part of the sloka ie., *naramahiShayoShchAgamapi vA balim* >listing out different types of Bali for the siddhi of the Karpura >Stotra mentions about *Nara Bali* or human sacrifice. > > > > I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY SUCH SACRIFICES ARE MENTIONED AND HOW FAR >THEY ARE RELEVANT. > > > > There are other places where such things are mentioned. Typically such bali-s are mentioned in the context of kAmya karma-s and never as nitya karma-s. > My understanding is, all that tantra says in such contexts is that if you would like to perform a certain kAmya karma to acheive a certain result, then nara or whatever bali is to be given. It is not a generic prescription which everyone is supposed to strictly adhere to. > > Furthermore, you can give something as bali only when you own it. > So, in general only kings indulge in such things during an impending war or when a revolution is about to happen. Those who dont like these will say it is gross and those who have respect for these rituals will ask, " Is it not a good thing to sacrifice one and prevent a war or a revolution " . > > So you get the picture. > > > I have heard about the human sacrifice mentioned in Veda where the >victorious king conducts. Instead of executing or giving death >sentence to the opponent king who lost in the war, a human sacrifice >is conducted with the chants of Purusha Sukta and the enemy is given > > salvation by offering him as a part of Nara Medha. > > Such ancient rituals exist and have been abandoned over time. I personally do not pay much attention to them as I dont need them. > > Same can be said about the pashu in tantra. It was offered to kAlI..so it reaches salvation too..? > > > > Why such horrific rituals are mentioned in Kali Tantra and >elsewhere? > > Ask parameshvara > > They may have their appropriate uses and contexts but irrelevant in today's world. The main thing to remember is, they are mentioned just like an experiment..if you want this ..do this etc. I dont think narabali is prescribed as something that is to be followed by everyone, everyday. > > Or one can give fancy explanations like it actually means the 6 enemies like kAma krodha etc.. yeah heard it... it is getting boring and often such explanations are flaky, and dont look solid. > > Anyway, narabali is something prescribed to be done daily in the form of jihAd in Islam.. so we are far better. Arent we? > > The book of Leviticus of the old bible also has such bali-s involving, birds, beasts etc for cure against leprosy and other things. It adopted these from the old pagan religions I guess. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Sriram, Sathish Is this explanation comparable in context and intent to what is used in the navAvarNA puja? ( as in Bhavanopanishad, says, ginger is substituted for mamsa/ matsya, grape juice for wine etc.....) srI harI Gopi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 , Gopal Gopinath <gopal_gopinath wrote: > Can you please provide (if you or anybody does have) reference >about this in Veda? Which Veda -Rig? It will be a surprise. But if >it is in Y or A, one can go by the explanationss/justifications >outlined by Satish. ? Of all things, if Purusha Sukta is used for a >bali then it would reflect the degeneration of society or >scholarship that had added this procedure to whichever veda it is in. I do not have a refernece but a copy paste from a friend's blog: I am unsure why using puruSha sUkta implies degeneration here. Using some other sUkta is okay? Such things were popular all over the world at that point. The problem seems to come from comparing ancient rites with modern values. That I see as unfair. See the last sentence in the below write-up. Maybe we could take this discussion off-line. To Sriram: >I am sure this statement would not come from the heart of the person >who is going to be sacrificed unless he is a suicide bomber.......... Same can be said of animals and plants. The very concept of existence implies destruction of other in some way or other. This concept is simple in the wild where for example a Lion kills other things to exist. In human societies, it gets more subtle as we evolve but the core principle is the same - i.e. To exist = destroy other things. That is why I would say there is no point in seeing/condemning all these rites as gruesome or inhuman. ----------- The Indo-Aryan kshatriyas performed a peculiar rite called the puruSha medha that has been spoken of by Indians on in hushed tones. Much like the cow sacrifice and horse sacrifice, which people have tried to explain away as not implying a real slaying, the human sacrifice has also been denied. However, there is really no point being coy about our past, based on modern notions and standards. The puruSha medha was a rare rite, as it finds very infrequent mention in Indic literature. Typically, it was a exaggeration of the ashvamedha that was occasionally conducted by victorious kings. In the puruSha medha rite the rival king was captured and brought as prisoner by the sacrificing king. The rite lasted a whole year. At the end of it he was smothered and sacrificed by the use of the puruSha hymn. Along with him, his animals may also be sacrificed and immolated as offerings. The pUru king, ayutanAyi is said to have performed the puruSha medha rite with his enemies. In many ways this gory rite was reminiscent of the rite of Julius Caesar when he slew some detractors of his along with the sacrificial horse. The puruSha medha may have been seen as a more formal mode of eliminating ones foes in the context of a pious ritual, as compared to a bland execution. -------- Satish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 I was expecting such a question: >I am unsure why using puruSha sUkta implies degeneration here. Using some other sUkta is okay? Such things were popular all over the world at that point. In spite of various interpretations of the western scholars, the 'purusha' in the purusha sukta is not anthropological. The commonalities of the themes could be confusing and steer towards extrapolating purushan sukta to purusha medha: 1)sukta vs 2) medha purusha *** purusha sacrifice (yagna) *** sacrifice (bali) etc. The sukta does not celebrate a bali or any organic offering. The bali being talked about here is nowhere near what is being described in the sukta. This obviously has been adopted by later ritualists to sanction validity to their actions. This also could imply that Rig veda precedes nara bali (if we think these were culturally and temporally in a linear order). Compilation of rig veda and its application, and homicidal practices could have as well might be evolving in parallel in terms of geography and time. Again this would only strengthen the notion that purusha sukta was used to sanction sanctity to the bali practice. It is one thing for people from the past to have used purusha sukta to consecrate nara bali and it is another to imply purusha sukta or any other sukta from Rig veda even slightly advocated such actions... Still I don't have the reference to narabali. I have also heard of Nara bali being done for the vanquished kings. This was even quoted repeatedly by a couple of fireband speakers from dravida movement in chennai many years back and I had looked it up at that time. Where comes the text you had appended to your previous mail? Could you kindly point to the work? thanks. --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Satish <satisharigela wrote: Satish <satisharigela Re: Nara Bali in Kali Karupra Stotra Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 7:55 AM @ .com, Gopal Gopinath <gopal_gopinath@ ...> wrote: > Can you please provide (if you or anybody does have) reference >about this in Veda? Which Veda -Rig? It will be a surprise. But if >it is in Y or A, one can go by the explanationss/ justifications >outlined by Satish. ? Of all things, if Purusha Sukta is used for a >bali then it would reflect the degeneration of society or >scholarship that had added this procedure to whichever veda it is in. I do not have a refernece but a copy paste from a friend's blog: I am unsure why using puruSha sUkta implies degeneration here. Using some other sUkta is okay? Such things were popular all over the world at that point. The problem seems to come from comparing ancient rites with modern values. That I see as unfair. See the last sentence in the below write-up. Maybe we could take this discussion off-line. To Sriram: >I am sure this statement would not come from the heart of the person >who is going to be sacrificed unless he is a suicide bomber...... .... Same can be said of animals and plants. The very concept of existence implies destruction of other in some way or other. This concept is simple in the wild where for example a Lion kills other things to exist. In human societies, it gets more subtle as we evolve but the core principle is the same - i.e. To exist = destroy other things. That is why I would say there is no point in seeing/condemning all these rites as gruesome or inhuman. ----------- The Indo-Aryan kshatriyas performed a peculiar rite called the puruSha medha that has been spoken of by Indians on in hushed tones. Much like the cow sacrifice and horse sacrifice, which people have tried to explain away as not implying a real slaying, the human sacrifice has also been denied. However, there is really no point being coy about our past, based on modern notions and standards. The puruSha medha was a rare rite, as it finds very infrequent mention in Indic literature. Typically, it was a exaggeration of the ashvamedha that was occasionally conducted by victorious kings. In the puruSha medha rite the rival king was captured and brought as prisoner by the sacrificing king. The rite lasted a whole year. At the end of it he was smothered and sacrificed by the use of the puruSha hymn. Along with him, his animals may also be sacrificed and immolated as offerings. The pUru king, ayutanAyi is said to have performed the puruSha medha rite with his enemies. In many ways this gory rite was reminiscent of the rite of Julius Caesar when he slew some detractors of his along with the sacrificial horse. The puruSha medha may have been seen as a more formal mode of eliminating ones foes in the context of a pious ritual, as compared to a bland execution. ------------ --------- --------- --------- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 There is reference to nara bali too in Srimad bhagavatham too (based on Sri Balakarishna Sastrigal's upanyasam) Jarasandha had captured 99 kings with the intent of offering 100 kings as nara bali to Siva. Anyway, the danger here is of trying to interpret the past with modern lenses. This is a common mechanism by occidental scholars to denigrate Hinduism. Over time social practices have been incorporated into our religion, similarly practices not in use or immoral have been shed. Prior to Adi Sankara, pasu bali was prevalent, He was instrumental in changing and providing alternatives. The notion of " morality " and " social acceptance " changes over time. During the medieval ages, victors used to hang the heads of the vanquished on fort ramparts. And lastly, how different is nara bali from modern day executions? 5000 years from now if someone where to read our constitution which allows for executions, will we be judged as abhorrent primitives? there is a danger to interpreting things out of context. Having said that, in this day and age nara bali is abhorrent and illegal. regards Vishwam ________________________________ Gopal Gopinath <gopal_gopinath Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:31:37 AM Re: Re: Nara Bali in Kali Karupra Stotra I was expecting such a question: >I am unsure why using puruSha sUkta implies degeneration here. Using some other sUkta is okay? Such things were popular all over the world at that point. In spite of various interpretations of the western scholars, the 'purusha' in the purusha sukta is not anthropological. The commonalities of the themes could be confusing and steer towards extrapolating purushan sukta to purusha medha: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 , Gopal Gopinath <gopal_gopinath wrote: > In spite of various interpretations of the western scholars, >the 'purusha' in the purusha sukta is not anthropological. The >commonalities of the themes could be confusing and steer towards >extrapolating purushan sukta to purusha medha: > > 1)sukta vs 2) medha > > purusha *** purusha > sacrifice (yagna) *** sacrifice (bali) My info on this one comes from a shrauta ritualist and I am not depending on any Western scholar's interpretation. > The sukta does not celebrate a bali or any organic offering. The >bali being talked about here is nowhere near what is being described >in the sukta. I cannot counter this because I dont study the shruti. But I would like to ask, are you sure that in all bali-s the sUkta-s chanted necessarily mention the act? >This obviously has been adopted by later ritualists to sanction >validity to their actions. This also could imply that Rig veda >precedes nara bali (if we think these were culturally and temporally >in a linear order). Compilation of rig veda and its application, >and homicidal practices could have as well might be evolving in >parallel in terms of geography and time. Again this would only >strengthen the notion that purusha sukta was used to sanction >sanctity to the bali practice. May or may not be. **-Qualified- shrauta or tAntrIka ritualists** sometimes modify or adopt new rituals. This depends on their learning or upAsana bala etc etc. That something came later does not necessarily mean it is invalid. A good example of this would be a late work like LS. Inspite of a late relevation which got textified comparitively recently, it is still divine and eternal. > It is one thing for people from the past to have used purusha sukta >to consecrate nara bali and it is another to imply purusha sukta or >any other sukta from Rig veda even slightly advocated such actions... I definitely did not intend to say above and I dont think Sriram intended it either. > Still I don't have the reference to narabali. I can ask but it may take sometime before I get an answer > Where comes the text you had appended to your previous mail? Could >you kindly point to the work? Check your personal mail. I will be sending it there in acouple of hours. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Satish, >> It is one thing for people from the past to have used purusha sukta >to consecrate nara bali and it is another to imply purusha sukta or >any other sukta from Rig veda even slightly advocated such actions... >I definitely did not intend to say above and I dont think Sriram intended it either. I did not mean you guys either. Historically it is evident that later vedic ritualistic practices involved bali- organic, living etc - in an integral manner. That is why we had Buddha who among other things, advocated against the use of animals in sacrifice. I have been also told that edible items distributed after some homas are essentially substitutes for organic and living bali naivedyas. Use of pumpkin seems to be akin to this... This is purely heresay on my part and i dont have scriptural evidence. What constitutes (I am actually agreeing with and paraphrasing you) as unethical and immoral at one time need not have been always so. In particular in the case of hindu saastras and their application: polyandry (paandavas and draupathi), polygamy (ramayana and many other earlier episodic records in vedas), continuation of husband's line after his death or other reasons by specific others (not exactly immaculate conception) similar to current surrogate fathership (manu smruthi, mahabharatha) have all been in practice, for good or bad, in the past societies. Most of them would considered to be illegal or immoral in any hindu community or the countries hindus live now.. But present does not make past invalid (as you say). But quoting and using Rig veda or parts of other parts to justify certain acts that defy the very tone and timbre of early seers is entirely a different story. Most of the cases it ends up being misinterpretation or even cold blooded mangling of the seer's spirit as evident in the hymns. Sriram's observation about narabali may fall into this. Narabali had been prevalent in south india in the name of saiva, saktha tantras, if not also vaishnava tantras in the medieval periods. I would only be surprised if those texts, if could be found, quote some part of purusha sukta or what not. While less prevalent in south india, I understand there are some in other parts of India (at least) who do believe in nara bali as part of tantric satiation of certain deities for material gains. Usually the victimes happen to be pre-pubertal young kids. I will stop here. thanks, -gopal --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Satish <satisharigela wrote: Satish <satisharigela Re: Nara Bali in Kali Karupra Stotra Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 10:16 AM @ .com, Gopal Gopinath <gopal_gopinath@ ...> wrote: > In spite of various interpretations of the western scholars, >the 'purusha' in the purusha sukta is not anthropological. The >commonalities of the themes could be confusing and steer towards >extrapolating purushan sukta to purusha medha: > > 1)sukta vs 2) medha > > purusha *** purusha > sacrifice (yagna) *** sacrifice (bali) My info on this one comes from a shrauta ritualist and I am not depending on any Western scholar's interpretation. > The sukta does not celebrate a bali or any organic offering. The >bali being talked about here is nowhere near what is being described >in the sukta. I cannot counter this because I dont study the shruti. But I would like to ask, are you sure that in all bali-s the sUkta-s chanted necessarily mention the act? >This obviously has been adopted by later ritualists to sanction >validity to their actions. This also could imply that Rig veda >precedes nara bali (if we think these were culturally and temporally >in a linear order). Compilation of rig veda and its application, >and homicidal practices could have as well might be evolving in >parallel in terms of geography and time. Again this would only >strengthen the notion that purusha sukta was used to sanction >sanctity to the bali practice. May or may not be. **-Qualified- shrauta or tAntrIka ritualists** sometimes modify or adopt new rituals. This depends on their learning or upAsana bala etc etc. That something came later does not necessarily mean it is invalid. A good example of this would be a late work like LS. Inspite of a late relevation which got textified comparitively recently, it is still divine and eternal. > It is one thing for people from the past to have used purusha sukta >to consecrate nara bali and it is another to imply purusha sukta or >any other sukta from Rig veda even slightly advocated such actions... I definitely did not intend to say above and I dont think Sriram intended it either. > Still I don't have the reference to narabali. I can ask but it may take sometime before I get an answer > Where comes the text you had appended to your previous mail? Could >you kindly point to the work? Check your personal mail. I will be sending it there in acouple of hours. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 I really do not understand the need to strain one way or other. In olden times there were balis. For the present time and clime it is not possible (legal reasons)?or needed.?In between it fell into disuse for various societal/cultural reasons. let us accept this and move on. Even now some misguided people who do not understand the texts and or practices resort to these, resulting in just a death with no spiritual gains. ? pashu is still used in yaga in some places. Others use pishta pashu - made of rice paste. I have seen both. ? In kaula shraddha meat, fish and liquor are still used. In order to get the meat there must be killing. It maybe done ritually. It maybe bought in the market where someone else did the killing. ? Let the interpretation given by the Guru prevail in the prampara. ? I have seen the offering of Goat in varahi pooja. properly done it is a silent non-violent (in the sense there is no struggle for the animal) action. One hears just a hissing of flow of blood. Now we are in varahi navaratri. But is it necessary. I do not know. some do it. simple as that. Some prefer to do naivedya with uzunnu vadai. ? So let us note and move on. If anyone does naramedha he will go to gallows under law. --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Gopal Gopinath <gopal_gopinath wrote: Gopal Gopinath <gopal_gopinath Re: Re: Nara Bali in Kali Karupra Stotra Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 9:26 PM Satish, >> It is one thing for people from the past to have used purusha sukta >to consecrate nara bali and it is another to? imply purusha sukta or >any other sukta from Rig veda even slightly advocated such actions... >I definitely did not intend to say above and I dont think Sriram intended it either. I did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Anye krita yuge Dharmaastretyam dvapare pare anye kali yuge nyanaam yuga hraasaanu rupata manava vachanena yugahraasaanuroopa tastthdyugeshu dharma api Bhinna bhavanti eva gometha narametha Aswa metha sooragrahaadayo Dharma smritishu uktaavapi kataa pratishedhitaah The Dharmas of Each yuga are different according to the availabilities and requirments of that specific Period. A small example of life span of humans in different yugas can be considered (may be they had the time to cleanse the karma and we dont have the same) to know why it is so. So in Kali yuga gometha,Aswa metha and Nara metha are BANISHED. even though theses subjects are referred in some Texts. It's Said that Brahmins are classified in 10 sects. In north India they are called as Pancha gouda's and in south India they are pancha dravidas. Dravidas were strict Vegetarians but goudas were Non-Vegetarians. One of them was vaisampayana he encouraged Animal slaughter (bali) hence yugurveda was taken back by Veda Vyasa. By this we know that sometime's few sects differed with satvik practices and made extreme amendments. The Important point is this need not be applied for the complete System. There is one jarasandha who ruthlessly performed Animal and human slaughter for his success. In the final confrantation with Bheema and Krishna. Sri Krishna mentions that Pasu and nara Bali are not accepted by veda and who ever performs such acts is undoubtedly a Monster. In taittariya brahmanam there were texts of purusha metha (nara bali) for various achievements for this instead of performing Actual nara bali a goat was sacrificed (pratyamnaya). by this we can know that blood slaughter was so wildly in practice that experts had to compromise with pasu bali rather than Nara bali. Next in kaushitaki Brahmanam it was mentioned to perform havana with parts of not actual animal but its sanketa roopa but it was ignored and actual animal parts were given away in havana. Later on some texts were written to remove the Karma dosha of such practices. These Violent practices by Brahmins were never mentioned in the Actual Veda. But later on were vigorously published in Veda Sahitya As we all know these acts were condemned by Jagadguru Adi shankara and Vidyaranya swamy Namaste Diwakar Diwakar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 , " Diwakar N.V.L.G " <diwakarvlg wrote: > Next in kaushitaki Brahmanam it was mentioned to perform havana >with parts of not actual animal but its sanketa roopa but it was >ignored and actual animal parts were given away in havana. Later on >some texts were written to remove the Karma dosha of such practices. Texts which advocate substituting animal parts with sanketa are the ones which came later. Not the other way. > These Violent practices by Brahmins were never mentioned in the >Actual Veda. But later on were vigorously published in Veda >sahitya Is there an actual veda? Doesnt veda means all the texts which include original mantra-s and then the ones which give out the ritual details too? I could be wrong here but there is a trend where people say whatever is in confirmity with modern notions and makes them not feel uncomfortable is actual veda > As we all know these acts were condemned by Jagadguru Adi shankara >and Vidyaranya swamy I do not know about vidyAraNya but I dont think shankara never condemned animal sacrifice. He infact indirectly insists that they be continued. That is why in the soma yAga-s performed by orthodox vaidika-s attached to the shankara matha-s, they still use a real pashu. In the ones that happened in 2001 and again in 2005(?) they used a goat I think. To Vishwanathan Krishnamurthy: >Prior to Adi Sankara, pasu bali was prevalent, He was instrumental >in changing and providing alternatives. Is AchArya ever concerned with the concept of pashu bali? I dont think so. Traditional vaidika-s have been using real pashu all teh these years. Please see above passage. Lastly, I find shrI Sankara Menon's message as very appropriate. Why is this a concern for us? Make a note and move on without getting disturbed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Dear Satish, I hope I did not give the impression that Adi Sankara was against pasu bali, pasu bali has scriptural sanction as it is mentioned in the shruthi and smriti. My point was that " occidental scholars " zone in on such statements to denigrate sanathana dharma. As to Sriram's question as to why they where mentioned in the vedas, where else can it be mentioned? there are very strict rights as to who can perform such sacrifices. Not everybody can perform a nirudapashubandam or somayagam there is a whole host of pre requisites. As regards to abhicharika sacrifices in the Atharvana and other tantras/puranas, can we delete all mention of these to satisfy the sensibilities of the " mordern ahimsa - everything is athma " cult? then should it not extend to modern sciences and ban all laboratory experiments on monkeys/guinea pigs etc? regards Vishwam ________________________________ Satish <satisharigela Wednesday, June 24, 2009 1:55:00 AM Re: Nara Bali in Kali Karupra Stotra @ .com, " Diwakar N.V.L.G " <diwakarvlg@ ...> wrote: > Next in kaushitaki Brahmanam it was mentioned to perform havana >with parts of not actual animal but its sanketa roopa but it was >ignored and actual animal parts were given away in havana. Later on >some texts were written to remove the Karma dosha of such practices. Texts which advocate substituting animal parts with sanketa are the ones which came later. Not the other way. > These Violent practices by Brahmins were never mentioned in the >Actual Veda. But later on were vigorously published in Veda >sahitya Is there an actual veda? Doesnt veda means all the texts which include original mantra-s and then the ones which give out the ritual details too? I could be wrong here but there is a trend where people say whatever is in confirmity with modern notions and makes them not feel uncomfortable is actual veda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Is anyone able to offer into the firE their animal qualities to become man-man and then to Godman. We can talk so many things but at the end find outselves nowhere. Bookish knowledge is not going to help. Our forum of late is becoming a place to discuss irrelevant things and everyone including me want to say something to show the little knowledge one had gained. Regards, S.SHANGARANARAYANAN satisharigela Wed, 24 Jun 2009 05:55:00 +0000 Re: Nara Bali in Kali Karupra Stotra , " Diwakar N.V.L.G " <diwakarvlg wrote: > Next in kaushitaki Brahmanam it was mentioned to perform havana >with parts of not actual animal but its sanketa roopa but it was >ignored and actual animal parts were given away in havana. Later on >some texts were written to remove the Karma dosha of such practices. Texts which advocate substituting animal parts with sanketa are the ones which came later. Not the other way. > These Violent practices by Brahmins were never mentioned in the >Actual Veda. But later on were vigorously published in Veda >sahitya Is there an actual veda? Doesnt veda means all the texts which include original mantra-s and then the ones which give out the ritual details too? I could be wrong here but there is a trend where people say whatever is in confirmity with modern notions and makes them not feel uncomfortable is actual veda > As we all know these acts were condemned by Jagadguru Adi shankara >and Vidyaranya swamy I do not know about vidyAraNya but I dont think shankara never condemned animal sacrifice. He infact indirectly insists that they be continued. That is why in the soma yAga-s performed by orthodox vaidika-s attached to the shankara matha-s, they still use a real pashu. In the ones that happened in 2001 and again in 2005(?) they used a goat I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Hari OM! That is why Dakshina Moorthy is just Mounam.... The real teaching is beyond words Mounam Vidwanu Bhooshanam... Pranams to all Shakthi Upasakas Regards Krishna On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 9:18 AM, S Sangaranarayanan <sangarsaiwrote: > > > Is anyone able to offer into the firE their animal qualities to become > man-man and then to Godman. We can talk so many things but at the end find > outselves nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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