Guest guest Posted October 3, 2005 Report Share Posted October 3, 2005 In the first stage, a servant is sitting and singing on the owner without doing any work. He is asking the remuneration for his song from the owner. The owner refuses remuneration because the singer has already got happiness by singing and that happiness itself is the remuneration. One cannot get two remunerations for single work even if you treat the singing as a work. In the second stage the servant is doing work and is also singing. The owner will pay for his work only but not for the song. The servant is singing while he is doing the work in order to get happiness to forget the tiredness in the work. Therefore, here also only the work is remunerated but not the song. In the third stage the servant is advised to stop singing because his energy is wasted in the song. If he works without singing all his energy can be concentrated in the work and the servant will get more remuneration. In this third stage it is only an advice but the servant is not blamed for singing. Singing is not wrong at all. But singing has no remuneration. Similarly in the first stage people pray and express devotion without proving their love in action. In this stage the people are getting the peace and bliss by the prayers and ex-pression of devotion. They cannot charge the Lord again for their prayers and devotion. In the second stage people participate in the mission of the Lord by sacrificing the work and the fruit of the work. While working for the Lord, they pray and sing devotional songs, which give them peace and happiness. Their prayers and songs are not wrong at all. But they will get the fruit from the Lord for their work only and not for their prayers (words) and for their devotion (mind). In the third stage they are advised to stop the prayers and expression of devotion by practicing silence and control of mind. The reason for this is that they can store their energy, which is wasted in prayers, and devotion and which cannot bring any fruit from the Lord. The energy wasted in these two channels can be diverted to the work only and more work can be done so that they can get a better fruit from the Lord. Of course, they should not expect any fruit for their work. Then only the Lord is pleased and will give the real fruit. But if they concentrate all their energy in the work only, they can get a better real fruit from the Lord though they do not aspire for any fruit. Please note that we are not finding fault with the prayers and devotion. We are only saying that you are wasting your energy in those two channels, which cannot bring any fruit from the Lord. If you control those two channels, better fruit is given to you. If you need relaxation by prayers and devotion, you will be in the second stage. Therefore there is no contradiction because in the third stage it is only an advice in the light of Yoga. Yoga means concentration of the entire energy in one channel that is useful. The root word of Yoga is " Yuj " , which means to unite the dissipated streams of energy in various useless channels and concentrate the whole energy as a single stream in the useful channel. The third stage is the highest stage. Hanuman never uttered prayers and never expressed devotional feelings on the Lord as per the Valmiki Ramayana, which is the only authority. Hanuman concentrated all His energy in the work of Lord Rama. Lord Rama also never expressed His love through words or feelings on Hanuman. He also gave silently the highest real fruit to Hanuman, which is the post of future creator (Brahma). Veda says " Yato Vacho Nivartante Apraapya Manasaasah " . This means that the words and mind cannot touch the Lord and will return back to you only. He will never hear your prayers and will never observe your ex-pression of devotional feelings. The reason is that they are giving you the immediate fruit, which is peace, happiness and satisfaction. It is like a self- employment scheme. Since the fruit is immediate and automatic the Lord need not pay any attention. But when you work for Him by sacrifice, you are not getting the peace, happiness and satisfaction. When you offer the sweet to the Lord you are suffering with hunger though you may feel it as happiness. But the Lord is not a sadist. He will pay His attention to you and will give you the real fruit. Therefore in this highest stage silence and control of mind are recommended by Gita also (Mounam Atma Vinigrahah). In the second stage by prayers and devotion, you are eating the sweet. Why should the Lord pay attention for that because you are getting the enjoyment in eating the sweet? Shall He give you the cost of the sweet to you for your eating? When you give the sweet to Him without aspiring for its cost, the Lord will be pleased for your sacrifice, which alone can prove your real love on Him and then reward you with real infinite fruit at the appropriate time and place. He will delay in giving the fruit since He wants to see you whether you have sacrificed the fruit expecting something in return. If you have sacrificed the sweet in terms of business, you will come out with your real color in the time of delay done by the Lord. The Lord is the top most genius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2005 Report Share Posted October 4, 2005 Rajarajeshwari_Kalpataru , " dattapr2000 " <dattapr2000> wrote: > Please note that we are not finding fault with the prayers and > devotion. We are only saying that you are wasting your energy in > those two channels, which cannot bring any fruit from the Lord. Greetings. My name is Manoj, and I am new to this group. Thanks for having me here. This post was very interesting and insightful, but it prompted me to pose a question: Does the above mean that Bhakti (Love expressed as prayer and devotion) is of no significance at alll, and that Karma (work) is superior to Bhakti? This is contradictory to what the Lord says in the Gita: Those who know Me (jnani) are closest to Me, but those who love Me (bhakti) are dearest to Me. ...... Or are you just trying to extol the greatness of karma by means of artha-vada? Please clarify this for me. Also how does this theory fit in with devotional geniuses like Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa? Jai Ma! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2005 Report Share Posted October 5, 2005 Dear Dattapr2000, To say that 'prayers and devotion' is a waste of energy and that it cannot 'bring any fruit from the Lord' is not so correct. Infact 'prayers and devotion' can move moutains. I know you are posting the artciles from the controversial Datta Swami organisation. I do not wish to pass any comments on anyone but still certain things are unacceptable.Also,I do not belong to any cults.I just have a simple yet very powerful Guru who has initiated me into srividya and asks me to do it in home peacefully.No philosophies or mimaansaas as such. Infact criticising these articles is a 'waste of my energy in 'this' channel!'. Karma yoga has to be understood in the right perspective and Tarkavada and being a 'wordsmith' should elicit truth not deviate from the main path. Just my humble take on this. If I have hurt you Iam sorry. I fully agree with Manoj ji in this regard. However please continue your search for Divinity. Your articles do make interesting reading. Eshwaree Rakshathu! Yours yogically, Shreeram Balijepalli Rajarajeshwari_Kalpataru , " manoj_menon " <ammademon@g...> wrote: > Rajarajeshwari_Kalpataru , " dattapr2000 " > <dattapr2000> wrote: > > Please note that we are not finding fault with the prayers and > > devotion. We are only saying that you are wasting your energy in > > those two channels, which cannot bring any fruit from the Lord. > > Greetings. > > My name is Manoj, and I am new to this group. Thanks for having me > here. > > This post was very interesting and insightful, but it prompted me to > pose a question: > > Does the above mean that Bhakti (Love expressed as prayer and > devotion) is of no significance at alll, and that Karma (work) is > superior to Bhakti? > > This is contradictory to what the Lord says in the Gita: Those who > know Me (jnani) are closest to Me, but those who love Me (bhakti) > are dearest to Me. ...... > > Or are you just trying to extol the greatness of karma by means of > artha-vada? > > Please clarify this for me. > > Also how does this theory fit in with devotional geniuses like Sri > Ramakrishna Paramahamsa? > > Jai Ma! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2005 Report Share Posted October 6, 2005 Dear Member, Many of your postings have been taken from the controversial Datta organisation.I do not dislike it but neither do I like some portions of your postings. Many contain fatuous arguments.I do not want to even comment on them and am just approving some articles posted by you which make some sense.I also did not like the article degrading India a bit but nevertheless I approved it just for your enthusiasm.Be proud that you belong to India.Will Lord Dattareya like it if you degrade your motherland thus to gain some points for your argument?Pray tell me if Iam wrong here. Ok In this posting , I can pick and pry upon such 'simplistic'(not to be confused with 'simple') arguments. Since you engage in a bit or Arthawada... let me too engage in some here.Though I hate such Tarkawada.Nevertheless Iam doing to it to show how illogical you are.Logic should be used with devotion,meditation and more importantly sadhana. You make even meditation and devotion some 'gyaan' concept.This is not correct.When I refer 'you' I mean your controversial Datta Swami. Please forgive my intrepidness here.I know I will be hated by you after this.But care aught for your sympathies or support than the truth.But please take this critical analysis of your one article (just for a sample..i can pry open each of your posting but then 'LOGIC IS A FRIEND OF MIND BUT NOT OF HUMANS' as they say.) 1.The very first sentence in your posting is in itself wrong. First you define something and go from that definition. Your 'tarka' follows from wrong 'artha' assigned to it. You say 'karma is ...work done to earn money...' This is wrong. That is why in my last posting I replied saying that you should first understand deeply the concept of 'karma'. Karma means any action not just 'earning money'.Every action will leave an imprint in your Mahakaranashareera,which is the cosmic record.So that will mean 'your' 'meditation and devotion in mind'(whatever that means!) is also an action ...a karma. 2.You then say 'money required ....yagna karma'. How can money become 'karma'? Pray tell me? Only an action becomes a Karma. I think 'you' have loosely based your article on the pancha maha yagnas.To confuse people with half-learnt concepts and modifying them to suit 'your' convinience is a cardinal sin. 3.You then support your 'wada'(wadanigraha) by qouting one sacred text in the name of Bhagavad geetha.(Infact I have seen the clever use of Bhagavad Geetha by the Datta Swami in almost all his talks and yet he claims to be a Dattatreya Avatar.Has he not heard of 'Avadhuta Geeta'?). And then you have misqoouted by saying the 'fruit of work is money alone'....How is this pray tell me Dattajana? fruit can be anything...It can mean anything from satisfaction to happiness,from aquiring 'punya' to aquiring 'papa'. To define the fruit as just 'money alone' is being too parochial. This is a definition which masses who do not understand 'tarka' or deeper spiritual points fall for.(Front benchers as put derogatorily for cinema goers!).As is the master so is the disciple. 4. Then you qoute Upanishads.Here I would like to say that Upanishad have been written by the disciples of Rishis and they are less accurate than the Rishi-prokta Vedas(which have to be understood properly without any bias).But still they are really gists of the vedas,maxims of truth. You say that the very first line explains that one must sacrifice money.The fundamental understanding is wrong here. I have this eye for understanding the fundamentals from my days of IIT prep. If the fundamentals are not understood properly one cannot go advanced! and crack the exam.I stand proof of this as I had cracked that exam. Ok, 'kayavith dhanam' means 'sacrificing the attachment,the enjoyment which comes from dhana(wealth)' and not dhana in itself. If that be so please ask your swami to relinquish his plush ashram and different trappings and all the websites and be like an avadhutha (which he must be as he claims to be Dattatreya Himself) and lead a spartan life. Money is just a tool. This has to be understood. Later bigoted priesta put in the notion of money being evil to control people. Hatred for money is not good.Infact 'hatred' for anything is not good.Even for sins as the thing which you will hate most will happen. That is why Aghoris and Tantreekas do some 'sins' like drinking and sexual coitus. These are done to break their mind which is the greatest prison.It is like the Murphy's law....'If anything can go wrong IT WILL'....Be free here.and carry on with the good work and help others than this useless pratter. 6. The you say that 'money should be held for minimun enjoyment and then should be given away to some avatar'.This refers to Datta swami I believe. Iam not so naieve to not understand this 'between the line statement'.The 'mission of uplifting the masses' is done by 'parabrahmam' and even otherwise if you say that parabrahmam assumes the form of a Guru(Datta swami here) then it mainly for individual chaintanya and rare cases like Shri Meher Baba to uplift mass consciousness on the whole.When a man of God says 'Iam God' I can understand that such statements are being made form higher states where the being is attuned with God and where he is at-one with God. But these statements are just made to grab people's hardearned money by forming a cult. 5. Then you qoute a 'spiritual man'.This is yet another logical trick. To qoute a spiritual man or book to misinterpret things and bamboozle people. All cannot be cheated all the time. Please note this.You have qouted Brahma Rishi Vashishta as saying 'money is the root of all evil' and then you use an arcane language like Sanskrit. Thankgod I know some of that Deva bhasha. Brahma Rishi Vashistha is very intelligent of the spiritual kind. He wont let out such statements. He just stated that 'Dhanammulamidam jagad'...It just means that 'Money is the root of this world' or in other words he was just stating a fact in some context saying that things because of money. It is just a fact and not a negation of some inherent goodness or assertion of a detrimentality in the nature of money.To twist some high personage's simple statement to support your arguments is not warranted. 6. Then you qoute an analogy. There is a book called 'Straight thinking and crooked thinking' by Robert Thouless. It is a book on Logic. Please read it to understand the clever use of analogies by people of power. Danger lies in analogies. Many people in the spiritual circiuit are fooled by such beautiful analogies. If people come to you like frogs because you have money.Then what is your Datta swami doing? Is he not also a frog albeit a king-frog? (when your tank is full).just test him without his knowing whether he will accept you if you do not have money or even education. This Dattaswami is a farcry from Shirdi Sai Baba who can be called a true 'datta swami' that he begged in streets and was clad in torn clothes and accepted all and served lepers and diseased people. Please ask your Datta Swami to do atleast one of this instead of portraying Himself in different robes(of jesus,muhammed,buddha,etc) to fool people.Please understand that this is not a tirade against your swami but just a matter of opinion expressed by many.Iam not against anyone maybe their stale concepts a bit. 7. The you talk of things like 'Srichakram' and say that it is just a wheel around money. THis IS TOTALLY UNWARRANTED statement by someone who does not know the deep essence of 'Srichakra' which is devi Herself.This is supplemented by a deviatory statement(as referred to by logicians) by saying that all 'fraud devotees' will runaway from ....Dattaswami(to fill in the blanks!)...Blessed are the 'fraud devotees' for they will be saved by Dattatreya Himself!..Hehe! It is like syaing 'sun rises in the east so you must eat rice flakes'. What has sun rising in the ast have anything to do with your eating rice flakes.' Please analyse any statement made by anyone threadbare and then decide whether to follow them or not. Here the 'you' refers to you my dear friend. I just pity you that you follow such charlatans and fraudsters. Anyways I leave it to your goodGodself to follow or not my advice which will be rejected. Iam just posting this because I have had enough of Swami Datta 'prachara '(advertisement) going on in my . Please find another platform.If you have anything useful on Devi you are welcome to post however. 8.The very first sentence of your 'saint's' gospel begins with ''Today you have offered you gurudakshina in the form of money to my feet... " Aye!Aye!...what a noble and holy thought to begin one's gospel! I really am amazed at the ignorance(not innocence...for a person can be innocent to the core but fully intelligent) at the devotees. Every sentence thus can be critically analysed and blastes for many fallacies in arguments. I hope this much of 'bashing'(done only with a good intention) is enough. ANALYSIS IS PARALYSIS I do not want to indulge in anymore analysis on a subject faitaccompli. I also do not want to pollute my mind with such cults and their 'tatwas'! Please refrain from posting such articles in all my groups and excite public debtae on issues which are best left 'untalked'. The moment something is given publicity it becomes famous. This sensationalism is aimed for by your cult leader. I will not give room to such things anymore. Sorry please forgive me for this. You may spit on me for this too. I do not care. May Parameshwari Rajarajeshwari protect you from all sides and show you the truth path! Jayosthu Paraamba! Eshwaree Rakshathu! Yours yogically, Shreeram Balijepalli Rajarajeshwari_Kalpataru , prakki surya <dattapr2000> wrote: > Emphasis Of Karma Phala Tyaga > > > The word karma in the case of a human being means the work done to earn money, which is essential for his food and offering the food to the guest. Money required for the self and his family is called `sareera yatra' in Gita. Money required to prepare food to offer to the guest is called `yajna karma'. The world karma in Gita was used in these two meanings in the context of a human being (sareera yatra pichate, yajnah karma samudbhavah). Therefore the fruit of the work means only money. > > > > The first mantra of the first Upanishad speaks about enjoyment and sacrifice of money (kasyasvit dhanam). The mantra says that the entire creation is the wealth of the Lord and one should store the money for his minimum enjoyment and the rest should be sacrificed to the Lord who comes in the human form for His mission to uplift this world. The second mantra says that one should continuously work and earn. Vasista said that money is the root of all this worldly family bonds (Dhanamulamidam jagat). When money is absent all the family members will leave you. All the family members and relatives approach you only due to money just like the frogs are present in the tank when it is full of water. > > > > The `Srichakram' means the wheel that surrounds the money. Therefore when the sacrifice of money comes into the picture, all the fraud devotees will run away because in their hearts the attraction to the family bonds exists as solidified darkness. Only the true devotees will stand, in whose hearts the darkness is removed and the light of divine knowledge exists. The Lord came in human form and tested `Saktuprasta' in the sacrifice of the food, which is another form of money. In draught he could secure a little flour and he was fasting for the past ten days. He was not tested in any other way of words and mind (japa, parayana, dhyana etc.). A real devotee will stand in this root test and this is the real fire test. > > > > If the bond with the money is cut, all the worldly bonds are cut, since money is the root of this whole `samsara'. The fraud devotees want to escape this test and therefore interpreted the `karmaphala' as the fruit of prayers, japa, parayana, dhyana etc. The eyes in this world not at all see such fruit. Therefore such fruit of work done by words and mind is unreal. There is no difficulty to sacrifice such unreal fruit. Therefore they misinterpreted the `karmaphalatyaga' as leaving a spoon of water in the plate after doing such work by words and mind. Some people have fooled the ignorant people by doing such works and get the `Gurudakshina'. They are selling the unreal fruit for the real money, by promising that the fruits of their sins will be removed and results of good deeds, which were not done, will be attained. > > > > Gospel of Datta Swami (SWAMI) On Guru Purnima: > > > > Today all of you have surrendered Gurudakshina in the form of some money at my feet for the sake of propagation of divine knowledge and devotion to Lord Datta. The full moon today represents gold or a silver coin (money), which you have to surrender to Guru as `Gurudakshina'. Every month, you have to do this on every full moon day and this is reminded by the full moon. But every human being cannot be a Guru. He shall be a `Sadguru' which means the Lord in human form. Only then your money is properly utilized. The money proves your real love. To whom are you giving the money? To your children. So, your real love is on your children. Simple and straight test. If you have real love on the Lord, you will give that money to the Lord. No more argument. This is the practical test. Prayers by words and meditation by mind are only the ways to prove your devotion on God to others, which is not real. Ofcourse, they act as side pickles if the main item i.e., rice is present in the meal. The > main item here is Gurudakshina, which is called as `karma phala tyaga' i.e., sacrificing the fruit (money) of your work for the sake of God. Without the `Gurudakshina', simply by singing and thinking about God is like offering a meal plate in which only pickles are present. You should recognize the `Sadguru' so that your Gurudakshina does not go waste and misused. > > > > The `Sadguru' is to be recognized by the infinite true knowledge possessed by Him. Veda says, " Satyam Jnanam .. " , which means that the Lord in human form should be recognized by His true and infinite knowledge. The four greatest statements from the four Vedas also say the same. The first three statements say that God appears in human form like me, like you and like Him. The last statement says that such human incarnation is recognized by His special knowledge. Even scholars give knowledge but their knowledge gives you a headache. The knowledge of the Lord touches your heart and gives you immense pleasure as said by the Veda, " Anando Brahma " . So, by His blissful knowledge, you can recognize the Lord like the fire is recognized by heat. Miracles are not His identity marks. Miracles are performed even by demons like Ravana etc. They are the jewels of the Lord, which are taken by the demons through rigid penance. Demons are also the foolish children of the Lord. So He gives those > jewels to the demons as they do penance for them. But by these jewels, demons could not become God, as they could not get His inherent quality i.e., blissful, true and infinite knowledge. Demons claimed that they are God. But sages did not agree for the same reason. > > > > The entire `Bhagavat Gita' stresses on this `Karma phala tyaga'. The first hymn of the first Upanishad (Esavasyam) says that you should return the extra money you have earned to the lord, which is not permitted by Him. It says that this entire world is His wealth only. Gopikas donated the fruit of their whole work viz., butter to the Lord in human form (Krishna), avoiding even their children and reached the 15th uppermost world called `Goloka'. They also surrendered their bodies to the Lord. This body is also the fruit of your previous action called `Prarabdha'. By this, they sacrificed even justice and did not even fear for Hell. Their love to the Lord was the highest and so the Lord granted the highest world to them. Their Gurudakshina was everything i.e., their money (butter), their bodies, their minds, their words etc., and what not? > > > > Lord was misunderstood that He was always after Gopikas and not males. He was abused as a fan of women. What is the secret in this? A man is surrounded by several egoistic (Rajas) qualities. But a woman has several submissive qualities (Sattvam) like fear, obedience etc., which are required for salvation. This is the reason why the male sages were born as Gopikas to attain the salvation. According to Lord Datta, any soul has to take the last birth as a woman. But, this does not mean that every woman is in the last birth. > > > > A hunter called Kannappa sacrificed his eyes to the Lord, which are the best parts of the body and is the best `Gurudakshina'. Veda says that you can earn the minimum which is required by yourself and your family which is permitted by the Lord and not extra. If you have taken extra, return it to the Lord. For example, when you have gone to your friend's house, you are offered a cup of milk. You can drink the milk but not take away the cup. Veda says that if you have taken extra, you are a thief and it is a sin. If you return the extra, you will be excused by the Lord. Otherwise, that sinful extra money will lead you to all problems. Some devotees offer even from their minimum or sometimes even their entire minimum. Patil, a devotee of Shirdi Saibaba used to offer his entire annual crop to Baba and took back whatever was given by Baba. When a rich man came for the spiritual knowledge, Baba said, " You could not give Rs 5/- required by me. How can you know God?'' Baba used to ask > Gurudakshina from everybody only to teach this most essential aspect of `karma phala tyaga'. > > > > The Lord does not need your money because the entire money is left here only in this world and you go alone with your sin. So, all His money is in His bank only i.e., this world. You are in His bank. You took extra from His bank and while dying, left those extras in His bank only. You have not taken the extra with you except the sin committed by you by taking that extra and atleast by not returning it to Him with your own hands. > > > > Sabari offered even her meal i.e., fruits to Lord Rama. This represents good money. The hunter (Kannappa) offered raw flesh to Lord Siva, which represents sinful money as it was earned by hunting. Both reached the same Lord because Rama (Vishnu) is Siva. Veda says, " Siva is Vishnu (Sivascha.....) " . The intensity of love is same in both the devotees. So, if you offer Gurudakshina with full love to the lord, he will not find fault with your sins. Kannappa was given salvation irrespective of his sinful hunting since he did not enjoy that flesh but offered it to the Lord. But if one enjoys, he gets the sin. > > at the lotus feet of shri datta swami > surya > www.universal-spirituality.org > > > > > manoj_menon <ammademon@g...> wrote: > Rajarajeshwari_Kalpataru , " dattapr2000 " > <dattapr2000> wrote: > > Please note that we are not finding fault with the prayers and > > devotion. We are only saying that you are wasting your energy in > > those two channels, which cannot bring any fruit from the Lord. > > Greetings. > > My name is Manoj, and I am new to this group. Thanks for having me > here. > > This post was very interesting and insightful, but it prompted me to > pose a question: > > Does the above mean that Bhakti (Love expressed as prayer and > devotion) is of no significance at alll, and that Karma (work) is > superior to Bhakti? > > This is contradictory to what the Lord says in the Gita: Those who > know Me (jnani) are closest to Me, but those who love Me (bhakti) > are dearest to Me. ...... > > Or are you just trying to extol the greatness of karma by means of > artha-vada? > > Please clarify this for me. > > Also how does this theory fit in with devotional geniuses like Sri > Ramakrishna Paramahamsa? > > Jai Ma! > > > SURYA > surya@u... > www.universal-spirituality.org > > > > for Good > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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