Guest guest Posted December 10, 2005 Report Share Posted December 10, 2005 Danny, The point is that no one forces anyone to get matched. Who told you they are forced? From where did you get this nonsensical conviction that " arranged marriages in sahaja yoga are a great insult to spirituality " ? This is just not true. If you do not like matched marriages fine, but others find it convenient, even necessary. Their main intention is to get a good, spiritual partner with whom they can continue their path. It is indeed very difficult to adjust with a non-SY partner. i think all this is much ado about nothing. The only concern i have is management SYs abusing their position i.e., they will refuse if you are not " Sahaj " enough. i wish they invent some Sahaj-O-Meter to measure the degree of " sahajness " in us. If they don't then kow-towing to the wishes of your local leader will be the unwritten intitial requirement in every marriage request. And don't forget to login enough collective hours because that too can disqualify you. There are other requirements that will reduce your sahajness, including being a member of this forum (eligible bachelors and aspiring spinsters please take note). But there is nothing wrong with matched marriages. FYI, it has a far better chance of survival than most western marriages. It is also better than the match-making services available, where sexual chemistry is also tested to confirm a compatible match. It takes around 10 partners or more to score a hit, and i have left out one- night stands since most are committed under the influence and will skewer the readings. Who are we then to pass judgment on two consenting adults desiring to be matched, not for sexual compatibility, but a sincere, life- long committment to love and cherish each other in a deep, spiritual relationship. That is why all this criticism about Sahaj marriages makes no sense. i do not belief in one-night stands, whether at the local bar or living on Earth. If i can have a partner who can help me advance spiritually i will consider myself very lucky. Marrying someone first and then trying to convince him/her to take up Sahaja Yoga and meditate on the Shakti has often failed. Does anyone know how difficult is to meditate when your spouse does not want to have anything to do with your beliefs? So be wise and marry within Sahaja Yoga. It will save you a lot of heart and headache. regards, jagbir , " kriptodanny " <kriptodanny> wrote: > > The arranged marriages in sahaja yoga are a great insult to > spirituality.Not even Buddha or Mahommed did this insanity.Not > Jesus,not Moses,not Confucius,and surely thing ..not Lao Tze.There is > NO spiritual teacher or Incarnation on this earth who forced it's > followers to get matched by a Mariage Committee....of older yogis,whom > they choose your life partner,while you must go to them in India,after > paying thousands of dollars in expences..so they,the Marriage > Committee..might match you on their own discretion.This is an > abomination of the spiritual laws.. > > I hope all the yogis wake up and realize the insanity of this. > Jai Shri Mataji!!! > love,danny > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2005 Report Share Posted December 10, 2005 Dear Danny, Clearly the policy of arranged marriages in SY is a violation of human rights, and should be investigated by appropriate authorities. It is cruel, humiliating and dehumanising to be at the mercy of a 'marriage commitee', and to be randomly paired off at the whim of this commitee. How dare these people be responsible for ruining the lives of others in this way, and deprive individuals of the right to choose their own marriage partner? Is the actual marriage ceremony even legal, or are these marriages legally registered later on? Best wishes, Semira , " kriptodanny " <kriptodanny> wrote: > > The arranged marriages in sahaja yoga are a great insult to > spirituality.Not even Buddha or Mahommed did this insanity.Not > Jesus,not Moses,not Confucius,and surely thing ..not Lao Tze.There is > NO spiritual teacher or Incarnation on this earth who forced it's > followers to get matched by a Mariage Committee....of older yogis,whom > they choose your life partner,while you must go to them in India,after > paying thousands of dollars in expences..so they,the Marriage > Committee..might match you on their own discretion.This is an > abomination of the spiritual laws.. > > I hope all the yogis wake up and realize the insanity of this. > Jai Shri Mataji!!! > love,danny > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2005 Report Share Posted December 10, 2005 Thats why I call danny worse than simon. Utter disregard for her holiness Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi. He should himself declare a nonsahajayogi, instead of running around the bushes. I salute to all the sahajayogis who accept the partners unconditionally as a prasad from the diety herself. If some naive ones feel that there are others involved in the selection process etc. one should note that Shri Mataji works through her instruments most of the times instead of doing it herself. If I were a moderator I would never allow such anti sahaj mails. It is because of such antisahajayoga posts, I feel this is not a good place for newcomers who can fall prey to the devils and bhoots. Hence I am contemplating removing the link from my site till the time such nonsense ceases to continue here. Jai Shri Mataji Also I agree with Bhagats concerns over several issues which Violet has still to answer. Jai Shri Mataji Mahesh.kriptodanny <kriptodanny wrote: The arranged marriages in sahaja yoga are a great insult tospirituality.Not even Buddha or Mahommed did this insanity.NotJesus,not Moses,not Confucius,and surely thing ..not Lao Tze.There isNO spiritual teacher or Incarnation on this earth who forced it'sfollowers to get matched by a Mariage Committee....of older yogis,whomthey choose your life partner,while you must go to them in India,afterpaying thousands of dollars in expences..so they,the MarriageCommittee..might match you on their own discretion.This is anabomination of the spiritual laws..I hope all the yogis wake up and realize the insanity of this.Jai Shri Mataji!!!love,danny Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Shopping Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2005 Report Share Posted December 10, 2005 , " jagbir singh " <adishakti_org> wrote: > > > Danny, > > The point is that no one forces anyone to get matched. Who told you > they are forced? From where did you get this nonsensical conviction > that " arranged marriages in sahaja yoga are a great insult to > spirituality " ? This is just not true. > > If you do not like matched marriages fine, but others find it > convenient, even necessary. Their main intention is to get a good, > spiritual partner with whom they can continue their path. It is > indeed very difficult to adjust with a non-SY partner. i think all > this is much ado about nothing. > > The only concern i have is management SYs abusing their position > i.e., they will refuse if you are not " Sahaj " enough. i wish they > invent some Sahaj-O-Meter to measure the degree of " sahajness " in > us. If they don't then kow-towing to the wishes of your local leader > will be the unwritten intitial requirement in every marriage > request. And don't forget to login enough collective hours because > that too can disqualify you. There are other requirements that will > reduce your sahajness, including being a member of this forum > (eligible bachelors and aspiring spinsters please take note). > > But there is nothing wrong with matched marriages. FYI, it has a far > better chance of survival than most western marriages. It is also > better than the match-making services available, where sexual > chemistry is also tested to confirm a compatible match. It takes > around 10 partners or more to score a hit, and i have left out one- > night stands since most are committed under the influence and will > skewer the readings. > > Who are we then to pass judgment on two consenting adults desiring > to be matched, not for sexual compatibility, but a sincere, life- > long committment to love and cherish each other in a deep, spiritual > relationship. That is why all this criticism about Sahaj marriages > makes no sense. i do not belief in one-night stands, whether at the > local bar or living on Earth. If i can have a partner who can help > me advance spiritually i will consider myself very lucky. Marrying > someone first and then trying to convince him/her to take up Sahaja > Yoga and meditate on the Shakti has often failed. Does anyone know > how difficult is to meditate when your spouse does not want to have > anything to do with your beliefs? > > So be wise and marry within Sahaja Yoga. Dear Jagbir..I can't marry in sahaja yoga because my leader hates me for posting in your forum... Also I can not marry in sahaja yoga because Mahesh told me I am worst then Simon for I refuse to accept my leader idea to not post in this forum,therefore I will never get married with a sahaja yogi..thank you,Mahesh..for my leader will never give me the formular to go to India so the Marriage Committee would pick a proper spouse from Uganda for me..thank you... love,danny ps..I'm gonna tell you a story,Jagbir..Blessed are those like you who have a spouse sahaja yogi.I ,myself..you know I am an old yogi.I thought I could compensate for any negativity shows up in my face .I was wrong.I had to marry in the US a woman who was into black magick.Her family,father,mother..etc..was living across 2 streets,yet she never visited them in the last 10 years.She was hating everyone,including my cat whom I had.I lasted..compensated..for 2 years straight...then I have snapped. When I did snap,she deported me right away,while keeping the house and the money.. Blessed are those with a sahaja yogi spouse..I am telling you..Jagbir..you are blessed,and you do not know it. love,danny It will save you a lot of > heart and headache. > > regards, > > jagbir > > > , " kriptodanny " > <kriptodanny> wrote: > > > > The arranged marriages in sahaja yoga are a great insult to > > spirituality.Not even Buddha or Mahommed did this insanity.Not > > Jesus,not Moses,not Confucius,and surely thing ..not Lao Tze.There > is > > NO spiritual teacher or Incarnation on this earth who forced it's > > followers to get matched by a Mariage Committee....of older > yogis,whom > > they choose your life partner,while you must go to them in > India,after > > paying thousands of dollars in expences..so they,the Marriage > > Committee..might match you on their own discretion.This is an > > abomination of the spiritual laws.. > > > > I hope all the yogis wake up and realize the insanity of this. > > Jai Shri Mataji!!! > > love,danny > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2005 Report Share Posted December 10, 2005 Dear Jagbir and Friends, I copy/paste here a private email I sent to Jagbir on Nov 11; it is a dream I had at the time which I would now like to publically post. Please consider the current situation carefully. There is no love and peace, kindness and compassion in the SY organisation, and there cannot be while there is an attempt to control and restrict people. Jagbir, the concerns you have voiced below about misuse of the system and abuse of power are very valid concerns. People must be allowed the freedom to marry the partner of their own choice within Sahaja Yoga. Do not be afraid to stand up and speak against wrong things. Best wishes, Semira Fri, 11 Nov 2005 02:13:19 -0800 (PST) " semira fields " <semirafields Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert Dream of warning " jagbir singh " <adishakti_org Dear Jagbir, I've had a dream about a warning; but I do not understand it, so it is best to write about it in private. First I see a white cluster, and in the centre an expanding blue light appears. In an instant the blue centre becomes uncountable blue centres, in an outward radiation. This clears, and I see a beautiful day in nature, with the blue sky, green trees and grass, and sunshine. After this, I'm at the scene of a world-wide meeting of people. It is like a sports game, with spectators and participants. There were no women, only men, and everything was being done mechanically. There was no nature present in this scene; it was white stone and dust. I see faces very clearly; they are tired, under strain, unhappy. Among the spectators who are sitting, I see that a young girl has appeared. She has long straight black hair, and dark eyes. She looks at me, and holds up a yellowed piece of paper with torn edges, on which has been written two words, in capitals and in black ink: WARN POLICE. The words were written one below the other. I felt really perplexed and scared in the dream, that there is something going to happen, but what I have no idea. I try to move to get closer to the girl. She gets up and begins to move meekly, unnoticed and silently away. At this point, I see that on her head there is a square handkerchief. It is patterned, and has gold edging. It is not tied on, it is just placed on her head so that the 4 corners fall freely. This is exactly what I saw in the dream. I really don't know what is meant by police here, and even what the warning is. Best wishes, Semira , " jagbir singh " <adishakti_org> wrote: > > > Danny, > > The point is that no one forces anyone to get matched. Who told you > they are forced? From where did you get this nonsensical conviction > that " arranged marriages in sahaja yoga are a great insult to > spirituality " ? This is just not true. > > If you do not like matched marriages fine, but others find it > convenient, even necessary. Their main intention is to get a good, > spiritual partner with whom they can continue their path. It is > indeed very difficult to adjust with a non-SY partner. i think all > this is much ado about nothing. > > The only concern i have is management SYs abusing their position > i.e., they will refuse if you are not " Sahaj " enough. i wish they > invent some Sahaj-O-Meter to measure the degree of " sahajness " in > us. If they don't then kow-towing to the wishes of your local leader > will be the unwritten intitial requirement in every marriage > request. And don't forget to login enough collective hours because > that too can disqualify you. There are other requirements that will > reduce your sahajness, including being a member of this forum > (eligible bachelors and aspiring spinsters please take note). > > But there is nothing wrong with matched marriages. FYI, it has a far > better chance of survival than most western marriages. It is also > better than the match-making services available, where sexual > chemistry is also tested to confirm a compatible match. It takes > around 10 partners or more to score a hit, and i have left out one- > night stands since most are committed under the influence and will > skewer the readings. > > Who are we then to pass judgment on two consenting adults desiring > to be matched, not for sexual compatibility, but a sincere, life- > long committment to love and cherish each other in a deep, spiritual > relationship. That is why all this criticism about Sahaj marriages > makes no sense. i do not belief in one-night stands, whether at the > local bar or living on Earth. If i can have a partner who can help > me advance spiritually i will consider myself very lucky. Marrying > someone first and then trying to convince him/her to take up Sahaja > Yoga and meditate on the Shakti has often failed. Does anyone know > how difficult is to meditate when your spouse does not want to have > anything to do with your beliefs? > > So be wise and marry within Sahaja Yoga. It will save you a lot of > heart and headache. > > regards, > > jagbir > > > , " kriptodanny " > <kriptodanny> wrote: > > > > The arranged marriages in sahaja yoga are a great insult to > > spirituality.Not even Buddha or Mahommed did this insanity.Not > > Jesus,not Moses,not Confucius,and surely thing ..not Lao Tze.There > is > > NO spiritual teacher or Incarnation on this earth who forced it's > > followers to get matched by a Mariage Committee....of older > yogis,whom > > they choose your life partner,while you must go to them in > India,after > > paying thousands of dollars in expences..so they,the Marriage > > Committee..might match you on their own discretion.This is an > > abomination of the spiritual laws.. > > > > I hope all the yogis wake up and realize the insanity of this. > > Jai Shri Mataji!!! > > love,danny > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2005 Report Share Posted December 10, 2005 Dear Semira, i find it difficult to believe that you regard arranged marriages a violation of human rights. If that is the case, you are insulting all the prophets, sages and gurus since time immemorial who always accepted arranged marriages. You are also insulting more than half of humanity as the Chinese and Indians always had arranged marriage for millennia, and still do. You are also insulting my parents who lived and loved each other through all the trials and tribulations, thanks to the inherent strength of their arranged marriage. You are also insulting my best friend whose son, a chemical engineer, was matched with an accountant just last month. i am also going to get all my children married through arranged marriage because i do not believe in this dating culture that you espouse in the name of human rights. Please come down to earth and read some hisotry. It is time you learn to respect other cultures and their rich traditions that have remarkably stood the test of time. Shri Mataji is just following the time-honored paths of these ancient cultures. You just have no idea how ignorant and judgmental you are if you think arranged marriages violate human rights. regards, jagbir , " semirafields " <semirafields> wrote: > > Dear Danny, > Clearly the policy of arranged marriages in SY is a violation of > human rights, and should be investigated by appropriate authorities. It is cruel, humiliating and dehumanising to be at the mercy of a 'marriage commitee', and to be randomly paired off at the whim of this commitee. How dare these people be responsible for ruining the lives of others in this way, and deprive individuals of the right to choose their own marriage partner? > Is the actual marriage ceremony even legal, or are these marriages > legally registered later on? > Best wishes, Semira > > > > > , " kriptodanny " > <kriptodanny> wrote: > > > > The arranged marriages in sahaja yoga are a great insult to > > spirituality.Not even Buddha or Mahommed did this insanity.Not > > Jesus,not Moses,not Confucius,and surely thing ..not Lao Tze.There > is > > NO spiritual teacher or Incarnation on this earth who forced it's > > followers to get matched by a Mariage Committee....of older > yogis,whom they choose your life partner,while you must go to them in India, after paying thousands of dollars in expences..so they,the Marriage Committee..might match you on their own discretion.This is an abomination of the spiritual laws.. > > > > I hope all the yogis wake up and realize the insanity of this. > > Jai Shri Mataji!!! > > love,danny > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 Dear Jagbir, I suggest that you take off your rose-coloured spectacles. For now, I send an article below for consideration, and will respond myself to the points you make, later. Love, Semira GCC Countries: Time to end discrimination against women Related documents Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) countries: Women deserve dignity and respect 11/05/2005 Press release, 11.05.2005 Amnesty International is urging the governments of the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) to take concrete steps that will significantly improve the situation of women and eliminate violence against them in their countries. The report GCC States: Women Deserve Better Respect and Dignity, published today, looks at violence against women in the family and the failure of the public authorities, particularly the police, to provide protection. It also looks at social and legal practices that facilitate and perpetuate violence against women, and block their escape from violence in the home. The report examines the situation of migrant domestic workers, including violence against them, the multiple forms of discrimination they face, violations by the authorities, and abuses by employers. It is the result of field research conducted in last year in GCC countries, which include Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and United Arab Emirates. " Goodwill intentions remain mere words until translated into actions, " said Abdel Salam Sidahmed, Middle East Programme Director for Amnesty International. " Governments must not fall short of doing what they can to bring real change in the lives of women who continue to suffer in silence in their countries. " Gender-based violence coupled with discrimination against women is common throughout the GCC countries and affects women at all stages of their lives. As young girls they are treated by their families as subordinate to their brothers. This exercise of control is manifest in restrictions on their freedom of movement and violence in the home. Many unmarried women and girls who are subjected to violence by members of their families put up with the abuse. They may see marriage as the only escape route from violence at the hands of members of their families. Some of the girls and women who choose this route continue to face violence in their new homes. If such violence becomes intolerable, their lack of economic independence or other options usually means that their only way of escaping the violence is to divorce, often on unfavourable terms, and return to their family home where they may be at risk of further violence at the hands of their relatives. The police usually fail to act in response to complaints of violence by women. Violence against women in the family is considered a " family issue " or " normal " in GCC countries. Moreover, social norms lead police to disregard the criminal nature of such assaults against women. This attitude is one of the main reasons deterring women from reporting violence in the home. Instead of being encouraged to go to the police, women are expected to endure violence from an intimate partner for the sake of " not ruining the family " . J.A., a 27-year-old Saudi Arabian national, told Amnesty International that she had suffered severe beatings by her father since childhood. In desperation, she contemplated committing suicide when she was 14 years old. She attempted to contact the police when she was about 15 years old, but they told her that because she was a child she would be returned to her parents' home, that most girls suffer beating at home and that it is normal. She finally agreed to her family's wishes and married a much older man in order to escape the beatings at home. She told Amnesty International that she did not know that he was 20 years older than she when she agreed to the marriage, and subsequently requested a divorce. However, she had to return to her parents' home where the beating continued, this time at the hands of both her father and her brother. She said that there was nowhere she could go and live safely in Saudi Arabia, and that she was confining herself in her room in her parents' house to avoid being beaten. " States have an obligation to ensure that their own agents do not discriminate or commit violence against women, and do not condone or acquiesce in such abuses by others, " said Abdel Salam Sidahmed. " It is unacceptable for governments to leave it to the victims of violence to assert their human rights. Gender-based violence in the family is a grave violation of women's fundamental human rights, and states have an obligation to take active measures to protect those rights. " In the GCC countries many women may be denied autonomy in choosing their marriage partner and are subjected by their families to physical violence or to restrictions on their freedom of movement when they assert their right to marry a partner of their choice. In some cases, women have been forcibly confined by their relatives for choosing a husband without their family's permission. Between 20 and 40 per cent of the growing number of migrants in the GCC countries are women, yet female migrant workers in domestic service in these countries are deprived of a wide range of human rights protections. They are at considerable risk of discrimination and gender-based violence, by both the state authorities and at the hands of private individuals and employers. In its report Amnesty International calls on GCC governments to ensure that laws to protect women against violence are supported by official policy and practice, and that measures are taken to ensure their effective implementation. " GCC countries must publicly condemn violence against women and pursue by all appropriate means policies to eliminate it, " said Abdel Salam Sidahmed. " All appropriate measures must be taken to protect women from violence and discrimination, and to ensure they are treated with dignity and respect which is the right of all human beings. " http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGACT770182005 , " jagbir singh " <adishakti_org> wrote: > > Dear Semira, > > i find it difficult to believe that you regard arranged marriages a > violation of human rights. If that is the case, you are insulting > all the prophets, sages and gurus since time immemorial who always > accepted arranged marriages. > > You are also insulting more than half of humanity as the Chinese and > Indians always had arranged marriage for millennia, and still do. > > You are also insulting my parents who lived and loved each other > through all the trials and tribulations, thanks to the inherent > strength of their arranged marriage. > > You are also insulting my best friend whose son, a chemical > engineer, was matched with an accountant just last month. > > i am also going to get all my children married through arranged > marriage because i do not believe in this dating culture that you > espouse in the name of human rights. > > Please come down to earth and read some hisotry. It is time you > learn to respect other cultures and their rich traditions that have > remarkably stood the test of time. > > Shri Mataji is just following the time-honored paths of these > ancient cultures. You just have no idea how ignorant and judgmental > you are if you think arranged marriages violate human rights. > > regards, > > > jagbir > > > , " semirafields " > <semirafields> wrote: > > > > Dear Danny, > > Clearly the policy of arranged marriages in SY is a violation of > > human rights, and should be investigated by appropriate > authorities. It is cruel, humiliating and dehumanising to be at the > mercy of a 'marriage commitee', and to be randomly paired off at the > whim of this commitee. How dare these people be responsible for > ruining the lives of others in this way, and deprive individuals of > the right to choose their own marriage partner? > > Is the actual marriage ceremony even legal, or are these marriages > > legally registered later on? > > Best wishes, Semira > > > > > > > > > > , " kriptodanny " > > <kriptodanny> wrote: > > > > > > The arranged marriages in sahaja yoga are a great insult to > > > spirituality.Not even Buddha or Mahommed did this insanity.Not > > > Jesus,not Moses,not Confucius,and surely thing ..not Lao > Tze.There > > is > > > NO spiritual teacher or Incarnation on this earth who forced it's > > > followers to get matched by a Mariage Committee....of older > > yogis,whom they choose your life partner,while you must go to them > in India, after paying thousands of dollars in expences..so they,the > Marriage Committee..might match you on their own discretion.This is > an abomination of the spiritual laws.. > > > > > > I hope all the yogis wake up and realize the insanity of this. > > > Jai Shri Mataji!!! > > > love,danny > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 Dear Semira, please understand that i am talking about arranged marrriage between two CONSENTING ADULTS. It has nothing to do with the document below. Sahaja Yoga marriage is between two CONSENTING ADULTS. Please let me know what is wrong with that. Semira, do you know any party can decline if they do not agree with the match? What has all this got to do with the article below and abuse of human rights? Regarding the article itself, sure there are a few people who abuse the system. Does that mean it must be banned? If that is the logic than we should ban churches because some of their priests sexually abuse the human rights of the faithful to a safe enviroment; we must ban cars because they abuse the human right to clean air; we must ban skirts because they abuse the human rights of Muslims to decency; we must ban migratory birds because their droppings violate human rights to clean health; we must ban strip-clubs because they violate human rights to decency; ............ and i can go on and on. Please do not attack Shri Mataji if you have not understood properly what She is trying to do. There is absolutely no basis for your claim that arranged marriage between two consenting adults violate human rights. It just does not make sense. regards, jagbir , " semirafields " <semirafields> wrote: > > > Dear Jagbir, > I suggest that you take off your rose-coloured spectacles. > For now, I send an article below for consideration, and will respond myself to the points you make, later. > Love, Semira > > GCC Countries: Time to end discrimination against women > Related documents > Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) countries: Women deserve dignity and > respect > 11/05/2005 > > Press release, 11.05.2005 > > Amnesty International is urging the governments of the Gulf > Cooperation Council (GCC) to take concrete steps that will > significantly improve the situation of women and eliminate violence > against them in their countries. > > The report GCC States: Women Deserve Better Respect and Dignity, > published today, looks at violence against women in the family and > the failure of the public authorities, particularly the police, to > provide protection. It also looks at social and legal practices that > facilitate and perpetuate violence against women, and block their > escape from violence in the home. The report examines the situation > of migrant domestic workers, including violence against them, the > multiple forms of discrimination they face, violations by the > authorities, and abuses by employers. It is the result of field > research conducted in last year in GCC countries, which include > Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and United Arab Emirates. > > " Goodwill intentions remain mere words until translated into > actions, " said Abdel Salam Sidahmed, Middle East Programme > for Amnesty International. " Governments must not fall short of doing > what they can to bring real change in the lives of women who > continue to suffer in silence in their countries. " > > Gender-based violence coupled with discrimination against women is > common throughout the GCC countries and affects women at all stages > of their lives. As young girls they are treated by their families as > subordinate to their brothers. This exercise of control is manifest > in restrictions on their freedom of movement and violence in the > home. Many unmarried women and girls who are subjected to violence > by members of their families put up with the abuse. They may see > marriage as the only escape route from violence at the hands of > members of their families. Some of the girls and women who choose > this route continue to face violence in their new homes. If such > violence becomes intolerable, their lack of economic independence or > other options usually means that their only way of escaping the > violence is to divorce, often on unfavourable terms, and return to > their family home where they may be at risk of further violence at > the hands of their relatives. > > The police usually fail to act in response to complaints of violence > by women. Violence against women in the family is considered > a " family issue " or " normal " in GCC countries. Moreover, social > norms lead police to disregard the criminal nature of such assaults > against women. This attitude is one of the main reasons deterring > women from reporting violence in the home. Instead of being > encouraged to go to the police, women are expected to endure > violence from an intimate partner for the sake of " not ruining the > family " . > > J.A., a 27-year-old Saudi Arabian national, told Amnesty > International that she had suffered severe beatings by her father > since childhood. In desperation, she contemplated committing suicide > when she was 14 years old. She attempted to contact the police when > she was about 15 years old, but they told her that because she was a > child she would be returned to her parents' home, that most girls > suffer beating at home and that it is normal. She finally agreed to > her family's wishes and married a much older man in order to escape > the beatings at home. She told Amnesty International that she did > not know that he was 20 years older than she when she agreed to the > marriage, and subsequently requested a divorce. However, she had to > return to her parents' home where the beating continued, this time > at the hands of both her father and her brother. She said that there > was nowhere she could go and live safely in Saudi Arabia, and that > she was confining herself in her room in her parents' house to avoid > being beaten. > > " States have an obligation to ensure that their own agents do not > discriminate or commit violence against women, and do not condone or > acquiesce in such abuses by others, " said Abdel Salam Sidahmed. " It > is unacceptable for governments to leave it to the victims of > violence to assert their human rights. Gender-based violence in the > family is a grave violation of women's fundamental human rights, and > states have an obligation to take active measures to protect those > rights. " > > In the GCC countries many women may be denied autonomy in choosing > their marriage partner and are subjected by their families to > physical violence or to restrictions on their freedom of movement > when they assert their right to marry a partner of their choice. In > some cases, women have been forcibly confined by their relatives for > choosing a husband without their family's permission. > > Between 20 and 40 per cent of the growing number of migrants in the > GCC countries are women, yet female migrant workers in domestic > service in these countries are deprived of a wide range of human > rights protections. They are at considerable risk of discrimination > and gender-based violence, by both the state authorities and at the > hands of private individuals and employers. > > In its report Amnesty International calls on GCC governments to > ensure that laws to protect women against violence are supported by > official policy and practice, and that measures are taken to ensure > their effective implementation. > > " GCC countries must publicly condemn violence against women and > pursue by all appropriate means policies to eliminate it, " said > Abdel Salam Sidahmed. " All appropriate measures must be taken to > protect women from violence and discrimination, and to ensure they > are treated with dignity and respect which is the right of all human > beings. " > > http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGACT770182005 > > > > > , " jagbir singh " > <adishakti_org> wrote: > > > > Dear Semira, > > > > i find it difficult to believe that you regard arranged marriages > a > > violation of human rights. If that is the case, you are insulting > > all the prophets, sages and gurus since time immemorial who always > > accepted arranged marriages. > > > > You are also insulting more than half of humanity as the Chinese > and > > Indians always had arranged marriage for millennia, and still do. > > > > You are also insulting my parents who lived and loved each other > > through all the trials and tribulations, thanks to the inherent > > strength of their arranged marriage. > > > > You are also insulting my best friend whose son, a chemical > > engineer, was matched with an accountant just last month. > > > > i am also going to get all my children married through arranged > > marriage because i do not believe in this dating culture that you > > espouse in the name of human rights. > > > > Please come down to earth and read some hisotry. It is time you > > learn to respect other cultures and their rich traditions that > have > > remarkably stood the test of time. > > > > Shri Mataji is just following the time-honored paths of these > > ancient cultures. You just have no idea how ignorant and > judgmental > > you are if you think arranged marriages violate human rights. > > > > regards, > > > > > > jagbir > > > > > > , " semirafields " > > <semirafields> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Danny, > > > Clearly the policy of arranged marriages in SY is a violation of > > > human rights, and should be investigated by appropriate > > authorities. It is cruel, humiliating and dehumanising to be at > the > > mercy of a 'marriage commitee', and to be randomly paired off at > the > > whim of this commitee. How dare these people be responsible for > > ruining the lives of others in this way, and deprive individuals > of > > the right to choose their own marriage partner? > > > Is the actual marriage ceremony even legal, or are these > marriages > > > legally registered later on? > > > Best wishes, Semira > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " kriptodanny " > > > <kriptodanny> wrote: > > > > > > > > The arranged marriages in sahaja yoga are a great insult to > > > > spirituality.Not even Buddha or Mahommed did this insanity.Not > > > > Jesus,not Moses,not Confucius,and surely thing ..not Lao > > Tze.There > > > is > > > > NO spiritual teacher or Incarnation on this earth who forced > it's > > > > followers to get matched by a Mariage Committee....of older > > > yogis,whom they choose your life partner,while you must go to > them > > in India, after paying thousands of dollars in expences..so > they,the > > Marriage Committee..might match you on their own discretion.This > is > > an abomination of the spiritual laws.. > > > > > > > > I hope all the yogis wake up and realize the insanity of this. > > > > Jai Shri Mataji!!! > > > > love,danny > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 , " jagbir singh " <adishakti_org> wrote: > > Dear Semira, > > i find it difficult to believe that you regard arranged marriages a > violation of human rights. *****And I find it shocking that you are trying to justify your repressive cultural conditioning, and expect everyone to have the same unreasonable thoughts as you on this issue. Not so long ago women were not even accorded the vote; for centuries people saw this as acceptable and justifiable. It's people like you who do not even see the reason for change being necessary. If that is the case, you are insulting > all the prophets, sages and gurus since time immemorial who always > accepted arranged marriages. *****This is your presumption. Please give specific examples of which prophets got commitees to randomly arrange marriages. I think I have missed out on some details here. I do not know of one church or mosque doing this, but I'd certainly like to know more about this. Also, you are twisting the topic. The topic is not 'arranged marriages'as such; it is arranged marriages by the Sahaja commitee, where partners are arbitarily chosen based on information given on forms. Arranged marriages in the present Muslim culture in Turkey are arranged by the families meeting each other, introducing the young people to each other, and after a period of getting to know each other deciding on a formal engagement, or not, depending; and after a certain time, the marriage will be arranged if the young people so wish. Sometimes young people meet a prospective partner in their university or workplace, and in these cases, the families get introduced to each other, and things proceed in a respectable manner from here. This is nothing at all like is happening in the SY arranged marriages, where there is no time to guage compatibility at all. And a horrifying thought; the SY ceremony is not legal, so at the time of the consumation of the marriage, the couple are not even legally bound. Do you understand the implications of this? > You are also insulting more than half of humanity as the Chinese and > Indians always had arranged marriage for millennia, and still do. ****Above I have described the procedure for Turkey. We are talking about quite different issues and conditions. Another thing, though, just because a custom or tradition has been in practice for millennia, does NOT mean that it is right, as in the case of patriarchy, no voting for women, slavery etc... > You are also insulting my parents who lived and loved each other > through all the trials and tribulations, thanks to the inherent > strength of their arranged marriage. *****I am very glad that they loved each other, Jagbir. Consider that there should be love between couples. > You are also insulting my best friend whose son, a chemical > engineer, was matched with an accountant just last month. *****Do the families know each other, and for how long? Or did they just meet up at the ceremony? We're talking about vastly different things, and you know it. Would they be happy about their son having got married to someone they knew nothing about, and who they had no choice in the matter about? How many families would accept this for their children? Just you tell me this; what families would accept that a commitee of people randomly choose the marriage partner for their child based on information in forms? > i am also going to get all my children married through arranged > marriage because i do not believe in this dating culture that you > espouse in the name of human rights. ****Fine Jagbir. And you honestly tell me that you will allow others to choose your child's marriage partner? I dare you to submit your child's form to the Sahaja commitee, and accept their choice. If you are defending something, then you have to be prepared to apply it to yourself; so do it. I want to know where I mentioned 'dating culture'? I am standing up for people making their own informed choice; this is the issue. If you're trying to make out that I am advocating loose dating, you'd better think again. > Please come down to earth and read some hisotry. It is time you > learn to respect other cultures and their rich traditions that have > remarkably stood the test of time. ****They have 'remarkably' stood the test of time because they are excellent means of controlling people. These cultures are patriarchal, and a lot of evil has been done in the name of 'respecting the culture'. Someday I hope that people will be given value as individuals in all cultures. You do not know what I respect or not, and are again twisting the issue. The issue is not 'rich traditions'; it is about people being reduced to lottery tickets. Give me the examples of cultures and systems in which a marriage committee chooses marriage partners. > Shri Mataji is just following the time-honored paths of these > ancient cultures. You just have no idea how ignorant and judgmental > you are if you think arranged marriages violate human rights. *****Shri Mataji has said that each person is to become their own guru. She has said that Sahaja Yoga is the awakening of the Spirit within. Allowing a marriage partner to be chosen by a committee is the very antithesis of these concepts. I understand that people have to behave with expected propriety according to the culture within which they find themselves. I mistakenly was under the impression that Sahaja Yoga went beyond cultural and religious barriers, however, I find it is creating and enforcing them. Instead of respect and dignity for the individual, I find the autonomy and integrity of the individual is disregarded. Best wishes, Semira regards, > > > jagbir > > > , " semirafields " > <semirafields> wrote: > > > > Dear Danny, > > Clearly the policy of arranged marriages in SY is a violation of > > human rights, and should be investigated by appropriate > authorities. It is cruel, humiliating and dehumanising to be at the > mercy of a 'marriage commitee', and to be randomly paired off at the > whim of this commitee. How dare these people be responsible for > ruining the lives of others in this way, and deprive individuals of > the right to choose their own marriage partner? > > Is the actual marriage ceremony even legal, or are these marriages > > legally registered later on? > > Best wishes, Semira > > > > > > > > > > , " kriptodanny " > > <kriptodanny> wrote: > > > > > > The arranged marriages in sahaja yoga are a great insult to > > > spirituality.Not even Buddha or Mahommed did this insanity.Not > > > Jesus,not Moses,not Confucius,and surely thing ..not Lao > Tze.There > > is > > > NO spiritual teacher or Incarnation on this earth who forced it's > > > followers to get matched by a Mariage Committee....of older > > yogis,whom they choose your life partner,while you must go to them > in India, after paying thousands of dollars in expences..so they,the > Marriage Committee..might match you on their own discretion.This is > an abomination of the spiritual laws.. > > > > > > I hope all the yogis wake up and realize the insanity of this. > > > Jai Shri Mataji!!! > > > love,danny > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 Dear Jagbir, Why do you equate my attacking of the marriage system with attacking Shri Mataji? Does this mean that anyone who points out wrong things going on is going to get accused of attacking Shri Mataji? Please understand that it is BECAUSE I have absolute faith in the Spirit within that I will do my UTMOST to speak and act against abuse and cruelty. Regards, Semira , " jagbir singh " <adishakti_org> wrote: > > Dear Semira, > > please understand that i am talking about arranged marrriage between > two CONSENTING ADULTS. It has nothing to do with the document below. > Sahaja Yoga marriage is between two CONSENTING ADULTS. Please let me > know what is wrong with that. Semira, do you know any party can > decline if they do not agree with the match? What has all this got > to do with the article below and abuse of human rights? > > Regarding the article itself, sure there are a few people who abuse > the system. Does that mean it must be banned? If that is the logic > than we should ban churches because some of their priests sexually > abuse the human rights of the faithful to a safe enviroment; we must > ban cars because they abuse the human right to clean air; we must > ban skirts because they abuse the human rights of Muslims to > decency; we must ban migratory birds because their droppings violate > human rights to clean health; we must ban strip-clubs because they > violate human rights to decency; ............ and i can go on and on. > > Please do not attack Shri Mataji if you have not understood properly > what She is trying to do. There is absolutely no basis for your > claim that arranged marriage between two consenting adults violate > human rights. It just does not make sense. > > regards, > > > jagbir > > > , " semirafields " > <semirafields> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Jagbir, > > I suggest that you take off your rose-coloured spectacles. > > For now, I send an article below for consideration, and will > respond myself to the points you make, later. > > Love, Semira > > > > GCC Countries: Time to end discrimination against women > > Related documents > > Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) countries: Women deserve dignity > and > > respect > > 11/05/2005 > > > > Press release, 11.05.2005 > > > > Amnesty International is urging the governments of the Gulf > > Cooperation Council (GCC) to take concrete steps that will > > significantly improve the situation of women and eliminate > violence > > against them in their countries. > > > > The report GCC States: Women Deserve Better Respect and Dignity, > > published today, looks at violence against women in the family and > > the failure of the public authorities, particularly the police, to > > provide protection. It also looks at social and legal practices > that > > facilitate and perpetuate violence against women, and block their > > escape from violence in the home. The report examines the > situation > > of migrant domestic workers, including violence against them, the > > multiple forms of discrimination they face, violations by the > > authorities, and abuses by employers. It is the result of field > > research conducted in last year in GCC countries, which include > > Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and United Arab > Emirates. > > > > " Goodwill intentions remain mere words until translated into > > actions, " said Abdel Salam Sidahmed, Middle East Programme > Director > > for Amnesty International. " Governments must not fall short of > doing > > what they can to bring real change in the lives of women who > > continue to suffer in silence in their countries. " > > > > Gender-based violence coupled with discrimination against women is > > common throughout the GCC countries and affects women at all > stages > > of their lives. As young girls they are treated by their families > as > > subordinate to their brothers. This exercise of control is > manifest > > in restrictions on their freedom of movement and violence in the > > home. Many unmarried women and girls who are subjected to violence > > by members of their families put up with the abuse. They may see > > marriage as the only escape route from violence at the hands of > > members of their families. Some of the girls and women who choose > > this route continue to face violence in their new homes. If such > > violence becomes intolerable, their lack of economic independence > or > > other options usually means that their only way of escaping the > > violence is to divorce, often on unfavourable terms, and return to > > their family home where they may be at risk of further violence at > > the hands of their relatives. > > > > The police usually fail to act in response to complaints of > violence > > by women. Violence against women in the family is considered > > a " family issue " or " normal " in GCC countries. Moreover, social > > norms lead police to disregard the criminal nature of such > assaults > > against women. This attitude is one of the main reasons deterring > > women from reporting violence in the home. Instead of being > > encouraged to go to the police, women are expected to endure > > violence from an intimate partner for the sake of " not ruining the > > family " . > > > > J.A., a 27-year-old Saudi Arabian national, told Amnesty > > International that she had suffered severe beatings by her father > > since childhood. In desperation, she contemplated committing > suicide > > when she was 14 years old. She attempted to contact the police > when > > she was about 15 years old, but they told her that because she was > a > > child she would be returned to her parents' home, that most girls > > suffer beating at home and that it is normal. She finally agreed > to > > her family's wishes and married a much older man in order to > escape > > the beatings at home. She told Amnesty International that she did > > not know that he was 20 years older than she when she agreed to > the > > marriage, and subsequently requested a divorce. However, she had > to > > return to her parents' home where the beating continued, this time > > at the hands of both her father and her brother. She said that > there > > was nowhere she could go and live safely in Saudi Arabia, and that > > she was confining herself in her room in her parents' house to > avoid > > being beaten. > > > > " States have an obligation to ensure that their own agents do not > > discriminate or commit violence against women, and do not condone > or > > acquiesce in such abuses by others, " said Abdel Salam > Sidahmed. " It > > is unacceptable for governments to leave it to the victims of > > violence to assert their human rights. Gender-based violence in > the > > family is a grave violation of women's fundamental human rights, > and > > states have an obligation to take active measures to protect those > > rights. " > > > > In the GCC countries many women may be denied autonomy in choosing > > their marriage partner and are subjected by their families to > > physical violence or to restrictions on their freedom of movement > > when they assert their right to marry a partner of their choice. > In > > some cases, women have been forcibly confined by their relatives > for > > choosing a husband without their family's permission. > > > > Between 20 and 40 per cent of the growing number of migrants in > the > > GCC countries are women, yet female migrant workers in domestic > > service in these countries are deprived of a wide range of human > > rights protections. They are at considerable risk of > discrimination > > and gender-based violence, by both the state authorities and at > the > > hands of private individuals and employers. > > > > In its report Amnesty International calls on GCC governments to > > ensure that laws to protect women against violence are supported > by > > official policy and practice, and that measures are taken to > ensure > > their effective implementation. > > > > " GCC countries must publicly condemn violence against women and > > pursue by all appropriate means policies to eliminate it, " said > > Abdel Salam Sidahmed. " All appropriate measures must be taken to > > protect women from violence and discrimination, and to ensure they > > are treated with dignity and respect which is the right of all > human > > beings. " > > > > http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGACT770182005 > > > > > > > > > > , " jagbir singh " > > <adishakti_org> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Semira, > > > > > > i find it difficult to believe that you regard arranged > marriages > > a > > > violation of human rights. If that is the case, you are > insulting > > > all the prophets, sages and gurus since time immemorial who > always > > > accepted arranged marriages. > > > > > > You are also insulting more than half of humanity as the Chinese > > and > > > Indians always had arranged marriage for millennia, and still do. > > > > > > You are also insulting my parents who lived and loved each other > > > through all the trials and tribulations, thanks to the inherent > > > strength of their arranged marriage. > > > > > > You are also insulting my best friend whose son, a chemical > > > engineer, was matched with an accountant just last month. > > > > > > i am also going to get all my children married through arranged > > > marriage because i do not believe in this dating culture that > you > > > espouse in the name of human rights. > > > > > > Please come down to earth and read some hisotry. It is time you > > > learn to respect other cultures and their rich traditions that > > have > > > remarkably stood the test of time. > > > > > > Shri Mataji is just following the time-honored paths of these > > > ancient cultures. You just have no idea how ignorant and > > judgmental > > > you are if you think arranged marriages violate human rights. > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > > jagbir > > > > > > > > > , " semirafields " > > > <semirafields> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Danny, > > > > Clearly the policy of arranged marriages in SY is a violation > of > > > > human rights, and should be investigated by appropriate > > > authorities. It is cruel, humiliating and dehumanising to be at > > the > > > mercy of a 'marriage commitee', and to be randomly paired off at > > the > > > whim of this commitee. How dare these people be responsible for > > > ruining the lives of others in this way, and deprive individuals > > of > > > the right to choose their own marriage partner? > > > > Is the actual marriage ceremony even legal, or are these > > marriages > > > > legally registered later on? > > > > Best wishes, Semira > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " kriptodanny " > > > > <kriptodanny> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The arranged marriages in sahaja yoga are a great insult to > > > > > spirituality.Not even Buddha or Mahommed did this > insanity.Not > > > > > Jesus,not Moses,not Confucius,and surely thing ..not Lao > > > Tze.There > > > > is > > > > > NO spiritual teacher or Incarnation on this earth who forced > > it's > > > > > followers to get matched by a Mariage Committee....of older > > > > yogis,whom they choose your life partner,while you must go to > > them > > > in India, after paying thousands of dollars in expences..so > > they,the > > > Marriage Committee..might match you on their own discretion.This > > is > > > an abomination of the spiritual laws.. > > > > > > > > > > I hope all the yogis wake up and realize the insanity of > this. > > > > > Jai Shri Mataji!!! > > > > > love,danny > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 The basis and center of any marriage is the Belief system of their God, ( Will not get into that, we wil believe as you want and I will as I want, and we will all see in the end) who ever you think it is. If you do not have a center in your life you have nothing. The pre- arranged marriages, are like On- line marriage services suppled. There are several, and they look for compatiability, and the ONLY thing really so different as I see it, is that they have Sahaja Yogi's and Shri Mataji as the basic religion TOGETHER so that gives them a middle ground which if they married outside Sahaja Yoga they may have problems especially with bringing up children. Compatibilitay again is checked, and the belief system. Yes, in many old time cultures ( My dad's was one)the parents told them who to marry, ( My Dads father tried that and he REFUSED, the person he thought he should marry )and it does not mean they were happy because someone fixed them up, either, they STUCK with it, because the woman had no choice and did not know how to support herself, and did not want shame and embarraement, it was harder in those days to get a divorce and the woman would be looked down upon. ( As my Dad said, " You made your bed now you lie in it " That is what was thought and believed, in older times. Marriage takes work and you will have mountains to climb no matter if it is arranged or not. But I will say, the on line dating can be disaterous if they do not have in common what they THINK or LIE about themselves which I have SEEN happen. My poor son, waiting till 30 years old and worked and stayed home, and enjoyed gardening in spare time, and did not want a drinkinjg person, got on line unknown to us, and he was 30 years old so he did not need to ask, but left for New Hampshire, to meet his new bride to be, as they seem to be PERFECTLY matched, and he said " Mom, believe me, I have waitied this long, and I know that we have so much in common, and will be fine " He brings her back " like a puppy dog, she has a child by God knows who, and he brings the child up for 5 yrs, then she has an affair ( which he finds letters , I knew it, but he would not believe me even if I tried to say it, and she treated me really badly because she knew I could read her) and so she left my son to be with boyfriend, he then, moved in with us, she got pregnant again, by another guy, ( found out he was no good and a loser, who will not work nor support other children by other women either) and now wants my son back. He has moved back with her ( They are married, my son and she) and have ONE child together, and she seems so good now but I am watching her closely and know one knows it but me, but now having trouble with x- boyfriend, who she had a child by, and my son again is paying for this child as the guy does not work!! Well could go on and on, but am making it short, but without the main thing ( the Religion right, and respect and an open mind, no marriage will get through the test of time.) We were in Sahaja Yoga and my son wanted to go to Pujas and get realization but she saind, NO, and she of course could win as she is mean, and they did not want us having religion around the children. ( Had to be careful.) Not Christian either and I and my husband are Christian. Told my son, he better start getting to church, and it will certainly be great and the children REALLY WANT that as they have TOLD me so we have taken them. ( Got away with it too) This girl ( forgot to tell you) is a WICCAN..... He did not know it................... She never told him, well he is trying to make it work, as they were so ( compatible the on line services said) and they are not, in the MAIN ways, maybe in some ways. So mistakes can happen in ANY way you do it. You need to BE the RIGHT person not always FIND the right person, either. BOTH need to be wiling to WORK at it and it is a LIFE TIME of ups and downs. Take it from a woman who married at 18 yrs old and has been happily ( most the time, sometimes have moments of wonder, he can get on my nerves, you know, hahaha) married, for 37 yrs. ( and we have had many problems and I mean MANY and both to blame at different times, ane needed to get thorugh it ) no one set us up, but we did very well choosing on our own, and we have our religious beliefs TOGETHER, to keep us strong. Good marriages do not just happen because you have alot in common or some computer thinks you fit together, it is a chance you take, but your faith must be the CENTRAL issue, or at least a respect and open mind to what the other on believes and be willing to TRY, and not think divorce every time you have a situation you do not like. That is what happens to my sons wife, she wants what SHE wants, and life is not that way, you need to GIVE more than receive. She may come around, ONFLUENCE of those around her, have seen it with ohter daughter in law, can make them 'get it together,' they both came from weird family enviornments. Foster Care broken home life etc, so they do not know any different, but they may LEARN. ( They need to watach and see how it is done, and WANT to have it work that is what makes the difference) What happens in Sahaj Yogi, you are EXPECTED to have it work, so thus you work at it, as you certainly cannot admit failure if the Holy Spirit, Shri Mataji put you togehter? So Christians need to see that i f God puts you together let no man put asunder " ) Now IF the husband commits adultry or vice a versa or does not show respect by beating, that is different, as your body is the TEMPLE of God, and God does not want His/HER temple defiled! ( Trying to be fair to everyone out there) Well will get off my soap box, but believe me I have seen and heard most all done various ways. Carol Ann > " bibbycine " <bibbycine > > > Re: Marriage >Sun, 11 Dec 2005 16:33:46 -0000 > > , " semirafields " ><semirafields> wrote: > > > > , " jagbir singh " > > <adishakti_org> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Semira, > > > > > > i find it difficult to believe that you regard arranged marriages > > a > > > violation of human rights. > > > > *****And I find it shocking that you are trying to justify your > > repressive cultural conditioning, and expect everyone to have the > > same unreasonable thoughts as you on this issue. > > Not so long ago women were not even accorded the vote; for centuries > > people saw this as acceptable and justifiable. It's people like you > > who do not even see the reason for change being necessary. > > > > > > If that is the case, you are insulting > > > all the prophets, sages and gurus since time immemorial who always > > > accepted arranged marriages. > > > > *****This is your presumption. Please give specific examples of > > which prophets got commitees to randomly arrange marriages. I think > > I have missed out on some details here. I do not know of one church > > or mosque doing this, but I'd certainly like to know more about > > this. > > Also, you are twisting the topic. The topic is not 'arranged > > marriages'as such; it is arranged marriages by the Sahaja commitee, > > where partners are arbitarily chosen based on information given on > > forms. Arranged marriages in the present Muslim culture in Turkey > > are arranged by the families meeting each other, introducing the > > young people to each other, and after a period of getting to know > > each other deciding on a formal engagement, or not, depending; and > > after a certain time, the marriage will be arranged if the young > > people so wish. Sometimes young people meet a prospective partner in > > their university or workplace, and in these cases, the families get > > introduced to each other, and things proceed in a respectable manner > > from here. This is nothing at all like is happening in the SY > > arranged marriages, where there is no time to guage compatibility at > > all. > > And a horrifying thought; the SY ceremony is not legal, so at the > > time of the consumation of the marriage, the couple are not even > > legally bound. Do you understand the implications of this? > > > > > > > > > You are also insulting more than half of humanity as the Chinese > > and > > > Indians always had arranged marriage for millennia, and still do. > > > > ****Above I have described the procedure for Turkey. We are talking > > about quite different issues and conditions. > > Another thing, though, just because a custom or tradition has been > > in practice for millennia, does NOT mean that it is right, as in the > > case of patriarchy, no voting for women, slavery etc... > > > > > > > You are also insulting my parents who lived and loved each other > > > through all the trials and tribulations, thanks to the inherent > > > strength of their arranged marriage. > > *****I am very glad that they loved each other, Jagbir. Consider > > that there should be love between couples. > > > > > You are also insulting my best friend whose son, a chemical > > > engineer, was matched with an accountant just last month. > > *****Do the families know each other, and for how long? Or did they > > just meet up at the ceremony? We're talking about vastly different > > things, and you know it. Would they be happy about their son having > > got married to someone they knew nothing about, and who they had no > > choice in the matter about? How many families would accept this for > > their children? > > Just you tell me this; what families would accept >that a commitee of people randomly choose the marriage partner for > their child based on information in forms? > >The sahaja culture,Semira...get used to it.Your children will NEVER >get married with a sahaja yogi unless your LEADER approves it,and then >you must go to India,for the Marriage Committee must(MUST!!!!) pick >your long life partener,Semira..get used yo it..your children may end >up in VENEZUALA...OR TASMANIA..who cares??..The Marriage Committee >decides NOT YOU.SEMIRA????? >love,danny > > > > i am also going to get all my children married through arranged > > > marriage because i do not believe in this dating culture that you > > > espouse in the name of human rights. > > ****Fine Jagbir. And you honestly tell me that you will allow others > > to choose your child's marriage partner? I dare you to submit your > > child's form to the Sahaja commitee, and accept their choice. If you > > are defending something, then you have to be prepared to apply it to > > yourself; so do it. > > I want to know where I mentioned 'dating culture'? I am standing up > > for people making their own informed choice; this is the issue. If > > you're trying to make out that I am advocating loose dating, you'd > > better think again. > > > > > > > Please come down to earth and read some hisotry. It is time you > > > learn to respect other cultures and their rich traditions that > > have > > > remarkably stood the test of time. > > ****They have 'remarkably' stood the test of time because they are > > excellent means of controlling people. These cultures are > > patriarchal, and a lot of evil has been done in the name > > of 'respecting the culture'. Someday I hope that people will be > > given value as individuals in all cultures. > > You do not know what I respect or not, and are again twisting the > > issue. The issue is not 'rich traditions'; it is about people being > > reduced to lottery tickets. > > Give me the examples of cultures and systems in which a marriage > > committee chooses marriage partners. > > > > > > > Shri Mataji is just following the time-honored paths of these > > > ancient cultures. You just have no idea how ignorant and > > judgmental > > > you are if you think arranged marriages violate human rights. > > > > *****Shri Mataji has said that each person is to become their own > > guru. She has said that Sahaja Yoga is the awakening of the Spirit > > within. Allowing a marriage partner to be chosen by a committee is > > the very antithesis of these concepts. > > I understand that people have to behave with expected propriety > > according to the culture within which they find themselves. > > I mistakenly was under the impression that Sahaja Yoga went beyond > > cultural and religious barriers, however, I find it is creating and > > enforcing them. Instead of respect and dignity for the individual, I > > find the autonomy and integrity of the individual is disregarded. > > > > Best wishes, Semira > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > > jagbir > > > > > > > > > , " semirafields " > > > <semirafields> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Danny, > > > > Clearly the policy of arranged marriages in SY is a violation of > > > > human rights, and should be investigated by appropriate > > > authorities. It is cruel, humiliating and dehumanising to be at > > the > > > mercy of a 'marriage commitee', and to be randomly paired off at > > the > > > whim of this commitee. How dare these people be responsible for > > > ruining the lives of others in this way, and deprive individuals > > of > > > the right to choose their own marriage partner? > > > > Is the actual marriage ceremony even legal, or are these > > marriages > > > > legally registered later on? > > > > Best wishes, Semira > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " kriptodanny " > > > > <kriptodanny> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The arranged marriages in sahaja yoga are a great insult to > > > > > spirituality.Not even Buddha or Mahommed did this insanity.Not > > > > > Jesus,not Moses,not Confucius,and surely thing ..not Lao > > > Tze.There > > > > is > > > > > NO spiritual teacher or Incarnation on this earth who forced > > it's > > > > > followers to get matched by a Mariage Committee....of older > > > > yogis,whom they choose your life partner,while you must go to > > them > > > in India, after paying thousands of dollars in expences..so > > they,the > > > Marriage Committee..might match you on their own discretion.This > > is > > > an abomination of the spiritual laws.. > > > > > > > > > > I hope all the yogis wake up and realize the insanity of this. > > > > > Jai Shri Mataji!!! > > > > > love,danny > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 Semira, i doubt you will understand that for centuries the ENTIRE WORLD had arranged marriages - T H E E N T I R E W O R L D. Even till today it is common in Asia and Middle-East, with marriage brokers/committees acting as a go-between. The trouble is that you are totally against the idea of arranged marriage, whether done by parents or marriage committees. You seem to regard that both always violate human rights, not that sometimes human rights are violated by forced marriages. Please try to understand the meaning of CONSENTING ADULTS. No court in the world can convict two consenting adults who agree to be married, whether by the their parents or a committee. It is their choice and you have no right to violate/judge their choice. Can you understand what i am telling you? - these are adults who are desirious and agree to have their marraige arranged. They are not forced, coerced, kidnapped, drugged or slapped silly into marriage. Please, PLEASE understand this fundamental point. Don't argue unless you can prove that adults consenting to marriage violates human rights, whether done by parents, the village headman, or a marriage committee. PLEASE understand this. PLEASE! regards, jagbir , " semirafields " <semirafields> wrote: > > , " jagbir singh " > <adishakti_org> wrote: > > > > Dear Semira, > > > > i find it difficult to believe that you regard arranged marriages > a > > violation of human rights. > > *****And I find it shocking that you are trying to justify your > repressive cultural conditioning, and expect everyone to have the > same unreasonable thoughts as you on this issue. > Not so long ago women were not even accorded the vote; for centuries > people saw this as acceptable and justifiable. It's people like you > who do not even see the reason for change being necessary. > > > If that is the case, you are insulting > > all the prophets, sages and gurus since time immemorial who always > > accepted arranged marriages. > > *****This is your presumption. Please give specific examples of > which prophets got commitees to randomly arrange marriages. I think > I have missed out on some details here. I do not know of one church > or mosque doing this, but I'd certainly like to know more about > this. > Also, you are twisting the topic. The topic is not 'arranged > marriages'as such; it is arranged marriages by the Sahaja commitee, > where partners are arbitarily chosen based on information given on > forms. Arranged marriages in the present Muslim culture in Turkey > are arranged by the families meeting each other, introducing the > young people to each other, and after a period of getting to know > each other deciding on a formal engagement, or not, depending; and > after a certain time, the marriage will be arranged if the young > people so wish. Sometimes young people meet a prospective partner in > their university or workplace, and in these cases, the families get > introduced to each other, and things proceed in a respectable manner > from here. This is nothing at all like is happening in the SY > arranged marriages, where there is no time to guage compatibility at > all. > And a horrifying thought; the SY ceremony is not legal, so at the > time of the consumation of the marriage, the couple are not even > legally bound. Do you understand the implications of this? > > > > > You are also insulting more than half of humanity as the Chinese > and > > Indians always had arranged marriage for millennia, and still do. > > ****Above I have described the procedure for Turkey. We are talking > about quite different issues and conditions. > Another thing, though, just because a custom or tradition has been > in practice for millennia, does NOT mean that it is right, as in the > case of patriarchy, no voting for women, slavery etc... > > > > You are also insulting my parents who lived and loved each other > > through all the trials and tribulations, thanks to the inherent > > strength of their arranged marriage. > *****I am very glad that they loved each other, Jagbir. Consider > that there should be love between couples. > > > You are also insulting my best friend whose son, a chemical > > engineer, was matched with an accountant just last month. > *****Do the families know each other, and for how long? Or did they > just meet up at the ceremony? We're talking about vastly different > things, and you know it. Would they be happy about their son having > got married to someone they knew nothing about, and who they had no > choice in the matter about? How many families would accept this for > their children? Just you tell me this; what families would accept > that a commitee of people randomly choose the marriage partner for > their child based on information in forms? > > > > i am also going to get all my children married through arranged > > marriage because i do not believe in this dating culture that you > > espouse in the name of human rights. > ****Fine Jagbir. And you honestly tell me that you will allow others > to choose your child's marriage partner? I dare you to submit your > child's form to the Sahaja commitee, and accept their choice. If you > are defending something, then you have to be prepared to apply it to > yourself; so do it. > I want to know where I mentioned 'dating culture'? I am standing up > for people making their own informed choice; this is the issue. If > you're trying to make out that I am advocating loose dating, you'd > better think again. > > > > Please come down to earth and read some hisotry. It is time you > > learn to respect other cultures and their rich traditions that > have > > remarkably stood the test of time. > ****They have 'remarkably' stood the test of time because they are > excellent means of controlling people. These cultures are > patriarchal, and a lot of evil has been done in the name > of 'respecting the culture'. Someday I hope that people will be > given value as individuals in all cultures. > You do not know what I respect or not, and are again twisting the > issue. The issue is not 'rich traditions'; it is about people being > reduced to lottery tickets. > Give me the examples of cultures and systems in which a marriage > committee chooses marriage partners. > > > > Shri Mataji is just following the time-honored paths of these > > ancient cultures. You just have no idea how ignorant and > judgmental > > you are if you think arranged marriages violate human rights. > > *****Shri Mataji has said that each person is to become their own > guru. She has said that Sahaja Yoga is the awakening of the Spirit > within. Allowing a marriage partner to be chosen by a committee is > the very antithesis of these concepts. > I understand that people have to behave with expected propriety > according to the culture within which they find themselves. > I mistakenly was under the impression that Sahaja Yoga went beyond > cultural and religious barriers, however, I find it is creating and > enforcing them. Instead of respect and dignity for the individual, I > find the autonomy and integrity of the individual is disregarded. > > Best wishes, Semira > > regards, > > > > > > jagbir > > > > > > , " semirafields " > > <semirafields> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Danny, > > > Clearly the policy of arranged marriages in SY is a violation of > > > human rights, and should be investigated by appropriate > > authorities. It is cruel, humiliating and dehumanising to be at > the > > mercy of a 'marriage commitee', and to be randomly paired off at > the > > whim of this commitee. How dare these people be responsible for > > ruining the lives of others in this way, and deprive individuals > of > > the right to choose their own marriage partner? > > > Is the actual marriage ceremony even legal, or are these > marriages > > > legally registered later on? > > > Best wishes, Semira > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " kriptodanny " > > > <kriptodanny> wrote: > > > > > > > > The arranged marriages in sahaja yoga are a great insult to > > > > spirituality.Not even Buddha or Mahommed did this insanity.Not > > > > Jesus,not Moses,not Confucius,and surely thing ..not Lao > > Tze.There > > > is > > > > NO spiritual teacher or Incarnation on this earth who forced > it's > > > > followers to get matched by a Mariage Committee....of older > > > yogis,whom they choose your life partner,while you must go to > them > > in India, after paying thousands of dollars in expences..so > they,the > > Marriage Committee..might match you on their own discretion.This > is > > an abomination of the spiritual laws.. > > > > > > > > I hope all the yogis wake up and realize the insanity of this. > > > > Jai Shri Mataji!!! > > > > love,danny > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 Dear Semira, Shri Mataji endorses the arranged marriage system that has been in place for centuries, if not millennia. You are equating the Sahaja Yoga arranged marriage system with the violation of human rights. In other words you are indirectly accusing Shri Mataji of violating human rights because She has endoresed the arranged marriage system. There is absolutely no grounds for you to accuse that arranged marriages, whether Sahaj or not, violate human rights. i have already made that clear in my earlier reply: /message/5219 Human rights are indeed violated if the marriage is forced, coerced or done under duress .............. or the child is a minor. Most arranged marriages in traditional soceities do not have human rights violations. i agree there are instances where the woman is forcibly married against her wishes and is further abused after marriage, i.e., her rights are violated. But Sahaja Yoga marriages definitely are not forced, coerced or done under duress. They are between two consenting adults who desire to be married. They have their own mind to make a informed decision. They have the right to refuse any arrangement. They are free to do what they want with their lives. So to say that Sahaja Yoga marriages violate human rights is just like implying Shri Mataji violates human rights since She has endorsed and set up that form of marriage. This is simply an outrageous remark that has no basis or substance. You have let your anger and indignation of FORCED arranged marriages intoxicate your judgment. Please do not bring some reports of women who were forced into abusive arranged marriage and compare it with the sacred ceremonies of two self-realized SY souls who want to continue their spiritual path. It is a choice that is both wise and highly recommended. i do agree the marriage proceedure can be abused by leaders. But still that does not mean arranged marriages violate human rights. There is a difference between arguing in a pub and a court of law. My views are from the later. regards, jagbir , " semirafields " <semirafields> wrote: > > Dear Jagbir, > Why do you equate my attacking of the marriage system with attacking > Shri Mataji? > > Does this mean that anyone who points out wrong things going on is > going to get accused of attacking Shri Mataji? > > Please understand that it is BECAUSE I have absolute faith in the > Spirit within that I will do my UTMOST to speak and act against > abuse and cruelty. > > Regards, Semira > > > > > , " jagbir singh " > <adishakti_org> wrote: > > > > Dear Semira, > > > > please understand that i am talking about arranged marrriage > between > > two CONSENTING ADULTS. It has nothing to do with the document > below. > > Sahaja Yoga marriage is between two CONSENTING ADULTS. Please let > me > > know what is wrong with that. Semira, do you know any party can > > decline if they do not agree with the match? What has all this got > > to do with the article below and abuse of human rights? > > > > Regarding the article itself, sure there are a few people who > abuse > > the system. Does that mean it must be banned? If that is the logic > > than we should ban churches because some of their priests sexually > > abuse the human rights of the faithful to a safe enviroment; we > must > > ban cars because they abuse the human right to clean air; we must > > ban skirts because they abuse the human rights of Muslims to > > decency; we must ban migratory birds because their droppings > violate > > human rights to clean health; we must ban strip-clubs because they > > violate human rights to decency; ............ and i can go on and > on. > > > > Please do not attack Shri Mataji if you have not understood > properly > > what She is trying to do. There is absolutely no basis for your > > claim that arranged marriage between two consenting adults violate > > human rights. It just does not make sense. > > > > regards, > > > > > > jagbir > > > > > > , " semirafields " > > <semirafields> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Jagbir, > > > I suggest that you take off your rose-coloured spectacles. > > > For now, I send an article below for consideration, and will > > respond myself to the points you make, later. > > > Love, Semira > > > > > > GCC Countries: Time to end discrimination against women > > > Related documents > > > Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) countries: Women deserve dignity > > and > > > respect > > > 11/05/2005 > > > > > > Press release, 11.05.2005 > > > > > > Amnesty International is urging the governments of the Gulf > > > Cooperation Council (GCC) to take concrete steps that will > > > significantly improve the situation of women and eliminate > > violence > > > against them in their countries. > > > > > > The report GCC States: Women Deserve Better Respect and Dignity, > > > published today, looks at violence against women in the family > and > > > the failure of the public authorities, particularly the police, > to > > > provide protection. It also looks at social and legal practices > > that > > > facilitate and perpetuate violence against women, and block > their > > > escape from violence in the home. The report examines the > > situation > > > of migrant domestic workers, including violence against them, > the > > > multiple forms of discrimination they face, violations by the > > > authorities, and abuses by employers. It is the result of field > > > research conducted in last year in GCC countries, which include > > > Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and United Arab > > Emirates. > > > > > > " Goodwill intentions remain mere words until translated into > > > actions, " said Abdel Salam Sidahmed, Middle East Programme > > Director > > > for Amnesty International. " Governments must not fall short of > > doing > > > what they can to bring real change in the lives of women who > > > continue to suffer in silence in their countries. " > > > > > > Gender-based violence coupled with discrimination against women > is > > > common throughout the GCC countries and affects women at all > > stages > > > of their lives. As young girls they are treated by their > families > > as > > > subordinate to their brothers. This exercise of control is > > manifest > > > in restrictions on their freedom of movement and violence in the > > > home. Many unmarried women and girls who are subjected to > violence > > > by members of their families put up with the abuse. They may see > > > marriage as the only escape route from violence at the hands of > > > members of their families. Some of the girls and women who > choose > > > this route continue to face violence in their new homes. If such > > > violence becomes intolerable, their lack of economic > independence > > or > > > other options usually means that their only way of escaping the > > > violence is to divorce, often on unfavourable terms, and return > to > > > their family home where they may be at risk of further violence > at > > > the hands of their relatives. > > > > > > The police usually fail to act in response to complaints of > > violence > > > by women. Violence against women in the family is considered > > > a " family issue " or " normal " in GCC countries. Moreover, social > > > norms lead police to disregard the criminal nature of such > > assaults > > > against women. This attitude is one of the main reasons > deterring > > > women from reporting violence in the home. Instead of being > > > encouraged to go to the police, women are expected to endure > > > violence from an intimate partner for the sake of " not ruining > the > > > family " . > > > > > > J.A., a 27-year-old Saudi Arabian national, told Amnesty > > > International that she had suffered severe beatings by her > father > > > since childhood. In desperation, she contemplated committing > > suicide > > > when she was 14 years old. She attempted to contact the police > > when > > > she was about 15 years old, but they told her that because she > was > > a > > > child she would be returned to her parents' home, that most > girls > > > suffer beating at home and that it is normal. She finally agreed > > to > > > her family's wishes and married a much older man in order to > > escape > > > the beatings at home. She told Amnesty International that she > did > > > not know that he was 20 years older than she when she agreed to > > the > > > marriage, and subsequently requested a divorce. However, she had > > to > > > return to her parents' home where the beating continued, this > time > > > at the hands of both her father and her brother. She said that > > there > > > was nowhere she could go and live safely in Saudi Arabia, and > that > > > she was confining herself in her room in her parents' house to > > avoid > > > being beaten. > > > > > > " States have an obligation to ensure that their own agents do > not > > > discriminate or commit violence against women, and do not > condone > > or > > > acquiesce in such abuses by others, " said Abdel Salam > > Sidahmed. " It > > > is unacceptable for governments to leave it to the victims of > > > violence to assert their human rights. Gender-based violence in > > the > > > family is a grave violation of women's fundamental human rights, > > and > > > states have an obligation to take active measures to protect > those > > > rights. " > > > > > > In the GCC countries many women may be denied autonomy in > choosing > > > their marriage partner and are subjected by their families to > > > physical violence or to restrictions on their freedom of > movement > > > when they assert their right to marry a partner of their choice. > > In > > > some cases, women have been forcibly confined by their relatives > > for > > > choosing a husband without their family's permission. > > > > > > Between 20 and 40 per cent of the growing number of migrants in > > the > > > GCC countries are women, yet female migrant workers in domestic > > > service in these countries are deprived of a wide range of human > > > rights protections. They are at considerable risk of > > discrimination > > > and gender-based violence, by both the state authorities and at > > the > > > hands of private individuals and employers. > > > > > > In its report Amnesty International calls on GCC governments to > > > ensure that laws to protect women against violence are supported > > by > > > official policy and practice, and that measures are taken to > > ensure > > > their effective implementation. > > > > > > " GCC countries must publicly condemn violence against women and > > > pursue by all appropriate means policies to eliminate it, " said > > > Abdel Salam Sidahmed. " All appropriate measures must be taken to > > > protect women from violence and discrimination, and to ensure > they > > > are treated with dignity and respect which is the right of all > > human > > > beings. " > > > > > > http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGACT770182005 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " jagbir singh " > > > <adishakti_org> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Semira, > > > > > > > > i find it difficult to believe that you regard arranged > > marriages > > > a > > > > violation of human rights. If that is the case, you are > > insulting > > > > all the prophets, sages and gurus since time immemorial who > > always > > > > accepted arranged marriages. > > > > > > > > You are also insulting more than half of humanity as the > Chinese > > > and > > > > Indians always had arranged marriage for millennia, and still > do. > > > > > > > > You are also insulting my parents who lived and loved each > other > > > > through all the trials and tribulations, thanks to the > inherent > > > > strength of their arranged marriage. > > > > > > > > You are also insulting my best friend whose son, a chemical > > > > engineer, was matched with an accountant just last month. > > > > > > > > i am also going to get all my children married through > arranged > > > > marriage because i do not believe in this dating culture that > > you > > > > espouse in the name of human rights. > > > > > > > > Please come down to earth and read some hisotry. It is time > you > > > > learn to respect other cultures and their rich traditions that > > > have > > > > remarkably stood the test of time. > > > > > > > > Shri Mataji is just following the time-honored paths of these > > > > ancient cultures. You just have no idea how ignorant and > > > judgmental > > > > you are if you think arranged marriages violate human rights. > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > jagbir > > > > > > > > > > > > , " semirafields " > > > > <semirafields> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Danny, > > > > > Clearly the policy of arranged marriages in SY is a > violation > > of > > > > > human rights, and should be investigated by appropriate > > > > authorities. It is cruel, humiliating and dehumanising to be > at > > > the > > > > mercy of a 'marriage commitee', and to be randomly paired off > at > > > the > > > > whim of this commitee. How dare these people be responsible > for > > > > ruining the lives of others in this way, and deprive > individuals > > > of > > > > the right to choose their own marriage partner? > > > > > Is the actual marriage ceremony even legal, or are these > > > marriages > > > > > legally registered later on? > > > > > Best wishes, Semira > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In , " kriptodanny " > > > > > <kriptodanny> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > The arranged marriages in sahaja yoga are a great insult to > > > > > > spirituality.Not even Buddha or Mahommed did this > > insanity.Not > > > > > > Jesus,not Moses,not Confucius,and surely thing ..not Lao > > > > Tze.There > > > > > is > > > > > > NO spiritual teacher or Incarnation on this earth who > forced > > > it's > > > > > > followers to get matched by a Mariage Committee....of > older > > > > > yogis,whom they choose your life partner,while you must go > to > > > them > > > > in India, after paying thousands of dollars in expences..so > > > they,the > > > > Marriage Committee..might match you on their own > discretion.This > > > is > > > > an abomination of the spiritual laws.. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope all the yogis wake up and realize the insanity of > > this. > > > > > > Jai Shri Mataji!!! > > > > > > love,danny > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 Dear Jagbir, -Can you explain to me what is meant by the affirmation 'I am my own master'? -Can you explain to me why SYs are told to be 'detached'; yet are compelled to be attached to protocols? -I do not care who endorses whatever; if something is intrinsically wrong, it is wrong. -The Sahaja arranged marriage system IS a violation of human rights; and is behaviour indicative of a destructive cult. I am still waiting for specific examples of cultures and systems in which the individual leaves the choice of their marriage partner to a marriage committee.(other than in destructive cults, of course) -What does following the Spirit within have to do with giving up the right of the individual to choose their own marriage partner? Why should anyone put their future into the hands of other people, especially people who are busy pretending that SY is a method of stress release? Does this really seem rational behaviour to you? -The Sahaja Yoga organisation is a contradiction from beginning to end. a-Become your own master, but follow the leaders. b-Experience freedom of the Spirit, but surrender to the protocols. c-SY is the Truth, but you have to lie and deceive others into joining. To stay in SY requires that you continually deceive yourself, too. d-SY is Love, but if you do not keep silent about cruelty and abuse, you will be thrown out, vilified and labelled. e-Do not fear; but everyone is fearful of expressing their opinions. There are many more, Best wishes, Semira , " jagbir singh " <adishakti_org> wrote: > > > > Dear Semira, > > Shri Mataji endorses the arranged marriage system that has been in > place for centuries, if not millennia. You are equating the Sahaja > Yoga arranged marriage system with the violation of human rights. In > other words you are indirectly accusing Shri Mataji of violating > human rights because She has endoresed the arranged marriage system. > > There is absolutely no grounds for you to accuse that arranged > marriages, whether Sahaj or not, violate human rights. i have > already made that clear in my earlier reply: > > /message/5219 > > > Human rights are indeed violated if the marriage is forced, coerced > or done under duress .............. or the child is a minor. Most > arranged marriages in traditional soceities do not have human rights > violations. i agree there are instances where the woman is forcibly > married against her wishes and is further abused after marriage, > i.e., her rights are violated. > > But Sahaja Yoga marriages definitely are not forced, coerced or done > under duress. They are between two consenting adults who desire to > be married. They have their own mind to make a informed decision. > They have the right to refuse any arrangement. They are free to do > what they want with their lives. > > So to say that Sahaja Yoga marriages violate human rights is just > like implying Shri Mataji violates human rights since She has > endorsed and set up that form of marriage. This is simply an > outrageous remark that has no basis or substance. You have let your > anger and indignation of FORCED arranged marriages intoxicate your > judgment. Please do not bring some reports of women who were forced > into abusive arranged marriage and compare it with the sacred > ceremonies of two self-realized SY souls who want to continue their > spiritual path. It is a choice that is both wise and highly > recommended. > > i do agree the marriage proceedure can be abused by leaders. But > still that does not mean arranged marriages violate human rights. > There is a difference between arguing in a pub and a court of law. > My views are from the later. > > > regards, > > > jagbir > > > > , " semirafields " > <semirafields> wrote: > > > > Dear Jagbir, > > Why do you equate my attacking of the marriage system with > attacking > > Shri Mataji? > > > > Does this mean that anyone who points out wrong things going on is > > going to get accused of attacking Shri Mataji? > > > > Please understand that it is BECAUSE I have absolute faith in the > > Spirit within that I will do my UTMOST to speak and act against > > abuse and cruelty. > > > > Regards, Semira > > > > > > > > > > , " jagbir singh " > > <adishakti_org> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Semira, > > > > > > please understand that i am talking about arranged marrriage > > between > > > two CONSENTING ADULTS. It has nothing to do with the document > > below. > > > Sahaja Yoga marriage is between two CONSENTING ADULTS. Please > let > > me > > > know what is wrong with that. Semira, do you know any party can > > > decline if they do not agree with the match? What has all this > got > > > to do with the article below and abuse of human rights? > > > > > > Regarding the article itself, sure there are a few people who > > abuse > > > the system. Does that mean it must be banned? If that is the > logic > > > than we should ban churches because some of their priests > sexually > > > abuse the human rights of the faithful to a safe enviroment; we > > must > > > ban cars because they abuse the human right to clean air; we > must > > > ban skirts because they abuse the human rights of Muslims to > > > decency; we must ban migratory birds because their droppings > > violate > > > human rights to clean health; we must ban strip-clubs because > they > > > violate human rights to decency; ............ and i can go on > and > > on. > > > > > > Please do not attack Shri Mataji if you have not understood > > properly > > > what She is trying to do. There is absolutely no basis for your > > > claim that arranged marriage between two consenting adults > violate > > > human rights. It just does not make sense. > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > > jagbir > > > > > > > > > , " semirafields " > > > <semirafields> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jagbir, > > > > I suggest that you take off your rose-coloured spectacles. > > > > For now, I send an article below for consideration, and will > > > respond myself to the points you make, later. > > > > Love, Semira > > > > > > > > GCC Countries: Time to end discrimination against women > > > > Related documents > > > > Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) countries: Women deserve > dignity > > > and > > > > respect > > > > 11/05/2005 > > > > > > > > Press release, 11.05.2005 > > > > > > > > Amnesty International is urging the governments of the Gulf > > > > Cooperation Council (GCC) to take concrete steps that will > > > > significantly improve the situation of women and eliminate > > > violence > > > > against them in their countries. > > > > > > > > The report GCC States: Women Deserve Better Respect and > Dignity, > > > > published today, looks at violence against women in the family > > and > > > > the failure of the public authorities, particularly the > police, > > to > > > > provide protection. It also looks at social and legal > practices > > > that > > > > facilitate and perpetuate violence against women, and block > > their > > > > escape from violence in the home. The report examines the > > > situation > > > > of migrant domestic workers, including violence against them, > > the > > > > multiple forms of discrimination they face, violations by the > > > > authorities, and abuses by employers. It is the result of > field > > > > research conducted in last year in GCC countries, which > include > > > > Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and United Arab > > > Emirates. > > > > > > > > " Goodwill intentions remain mere words until translated into > > > > actions, " said Abdel Salam Sidahmed, Middle East Programme > > > Director > > > > for Amnesty International. " Governments must not fall short of > > > doing > > > > what they can to bring real change in the lives of women who > > > > continue to suffer in silence in their countries. " > > > > > > > > Gender-based violence coupled with discrimination against > women > > is > > > > common throughout the GCC countries and affects women at all > > > stages > > > > of their lives. As young girls they are treated by their > > families > > > as > > > > subordinate to their brothers. This exercise of control is > > > manifest > > > > in restrictions on their freedom of movement and violence in > the > > > > home. Many unmarried women and girls who are subjected to > > violence > > > > by members of their families put up with the abuse. They may > see > > > > marriage as the only escape route from violence at the hands > of > > > > members of their families. Some of the girls and women who > > choose > > > > this route continue to face violence in their new homes. If > such > > > > violence becomes intolerable, their lack of economic > > independence > > > or > > > > other options usually means that their only way of escaping > the > > > > violence is to divorce, often on unfavourable terms, and > return > > to > > > > their family home where they may be at risk of further > violence > > at > > > > the hands of their relatives. > > > > > > > > The police usually fail to act in response to complaints of > > > violence > > > > by women. Violence against women in the family is considered > > > > a " family issue " or " normal " in GCC countries. Moreover, > social > > > > norms lead police to disregard the criminal nature of such > > > assaults > > > > against women. This attitude is one of the main reasons > > deterring > > > > women from reporting violence in the home. Instead of being > > > > encouraged to go to the police, women are expected to endure > > > > violence from an intimate partner for the sake of " not ruining > > the > > > > family " . > > > > > > > > J.A., a 27-year-old Saudi Arabian national, told Amnesty > > > > International that she had suffered severe beatings by her > > father > > > > since childhood. In desperation, she contemplated committing > > > suicide > > > > when she was 14 years old. She attempted to contact the police > > > when > > > > she was about 15 years old, but they told her that because she > > was > > > a > > > > child she would be returned to her parents' home, that most > > girls > > > > suffer beating at home and that it is normal. She finally > agreed > > > to > > > > her family's wishes and married a much older man in order to > > > escape > > > > the beatings at home. She told Amnesty International that she > > did > > > > not know that he was 20 years older than she when she agreed > to > > > the > > > > marriage, and subsequently requested a divorce. However, she > had > > > to > > > > return to her parents' home where the beating continued, this > > time > > > > at the hands of both her father and her brother. She said that > > > there > > > > was nowhere she could go and live safely in Saudi Arabia, and > > that > > > > she was confining herself in her room in her parents' house to > > > avoid > > > > being beaten. > > > > > > > > " States have an obligation to ensure that their own agents do > > not > > > > discriminate or commit violence against women, and do not > > condone > > > or > > > > acquiesce in such abuses by others, " said Abdel Salam > > > Sidahmed. " It > > > > is unacceptable for governments to leave it to the victims of > > > > violence to assert their human rights. Gender-based violence > in > > > the > > > > family is a grave violation of women's fundamental human > rights, > > > and > > > > states have an obligation to take active measures to protect > > those > > > > rights. " > > > > > > > > In the GCC countries many women may be denied autonomy in > > choosing > > > > their marriage partner and are subjected by their families to > > > > physical violence or to restrictions on their freedom of > > movement > > > > when they assert their right to marry a partner of their > choice. > > > In > > > > some cases, women have been forcibly confined by their > relatives > > > for > > > > choosing a husband without their family's permission. > > > > > > > > Between 20 and 40 per cent of the growing number of migrants > in > > > the > > > > GCC countries are women, yet female migrant workers in > domestic > > > > service in these countries are deprived of a wide range of > human > > > > rights protections. They are at considerable risk of > > > discrimination > > > > and gender-based violence, by both the state authorities and > at > > > the > > > > hands of private individuals and employers. > > > > > > > > In its report Amnesty International calls on GCC governments > to > > > > ensure that laws to protect women against violence are > supported > > > by > > > > official policy and practice, and that measures are taken to > > > ensure > > > > their effective implementation. > > > > > > > > " GCC countries must publicly condemn violence against women > and > > > > pursue by all appropriate means policies to eliminate it, " > said > > > > Abdel Salam Sidahmed. " All appropriate measures must be taken > to > > > > protect women from violence and discrimination, and to ensure > > they > > > > are treated with dignity and respect which is the right of all > > > human > > > > beings. " > > > > > > > > http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGACT770182005 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " jagbir singh " > > > > <adishakti_org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Semira, > > > > > > > > > > i find it difficult to believe that you regard arranged > > > marriages > > > > a > > > > > violation of human rights. If that is the case, you are > > > insulting > > > > > all the prophets, sages and gurus since time immemorial who > > > always > > > > > accepted arranged marriages. > > > > > > > > > > You are also insulting more than half of humanity as the > > Chinese > > > > and > > > > > Indians always had arranged marriage for millennia, and > still > > do. > > > > > > > > > > You are also insulting my parents who lived and loved each > > other > > > > > through all the trials and tribulations, thanks to the > > inherent > > > > > strength of their arranged marriage. > > > > > > > > > > You are also insulting my best friend whose son, a chemical > > > > > engineer, was matched with an accountant just last month. > > > > > > > > > > i am also going to get all my children married through > > arranged > > > > > marriage because i do not believe in this dating culture > that > > > you > > > > > espouse in the name of human rights. > > > > > > > > > > Please come down to earth and read some hisotry. It is time > > you > > > > > learn to respect other cultures and their rich traditions > that > > > > have > > > > > remarkably stood the test of time. > > > > > > > > > > Shri Mataji is just following the time-honored paths of > these > > > > > ancient cultures. You just have no idea how ignorant and > > > > judgmental > > > > > you are if you think arranged marriages violate human rights. > > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > jagbir > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In , " semirafields " > > > > > <semirafields> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Danny, > > > > > > Clearly the policy of arranged marriages in SY is a > > violation > > > of > > > > > > human rights, and should be investigated by appropriate > > > > > authorities. It is cruel, humiliating and dehumanising to be > > at > > > > the > > > > > mercy of a 'marriage commitee', and to be randomly paired > off > > at > > > > the > > > > > whim of this commitee. How dare these people be responsible > > for > > > > > ruining the lives of others in this way, and deprive > > individuals > > > > of > > > > > the right to choose their own marriage partner? > > > > > > Is the actual marriage ceremony even legal, or are these > > > > marriages > > > > > > legally registered later on? > > > > > > Best wishes, Semira > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In > , " kriptodanny " > > > > > > <kriptodanny> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The arranged marriages in sahaja yoga are a great insult > to > > > > > > > spirituality.Not even Buddha or Mahommed did this > > > insanity.Not > > > > > > > Jesus,not Moses,not Confucius,and surely thing ..not Lao > > > > > Tze.There > > > > > > is > > > > > > > NO spiritual teacher or Incarnation on this earth who > > forced > > > > it's > > > > > > > followers to get matched by a Mariage Committee....of > > older > > > > > > yogis,whom they choose your life partner,while you must go > > to > > > > them > > > > > in India, after paying thousands of dollars in expences..so > > > > they,the > > > > > Marriage Committee..might match you on their own > > discretion.This > > > > is > > > > > an abomination of the spiritual laws.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope all the yogis wake up and realize the insanity of > > > this. > > > > > > > Jai Shri Mataji!!! > > > > > > > love,danny > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Dear Jagbir, Which culture in the WORLD practising arranged marriages has the practice of the marriage being consummated at a time at which the marriage is NOT LEGAL? Regards, Semira , " jagbir singh " <adishakti_org> wrote: > > > > Semira, > > i doubt you will understand that for centuries the ENTIRE WORLD had > arranged marriages - T H E E N T I R E W O R L D. Even till > today it is common in Asia and Middle-East, with marriage > brokers/committees acting as a go-between. > > The trouble is that you are totally against the idea of arranged > marriage, whether done by parents or marriage committees. You seem > to regard that both always violate human rights, not that sometimes > human rights are violated by forced marriages. > > Please try to understand the meaning of CONSENTING ADULTS. No court > in the world can convict two consenting adults who agree to be > married, whether by the their parents or a committee. It is their > choice and you have no right to violate/judge their choice. Can you > understand what i am telling you? - these are adults who are > desirious and agree to have their marraige arranged. They are not > forced, coerced, kidnapped, drugged or slapped silly into marriage. > Please, PLEASE understand this fundamental point. Don't argue unless > you can prove that adults consenting to marriage violates human > rights, whether done by parents, the village headman, or a marriage > committee. PLEASE understand this. PLEASE! > > regards, > > jagbir > > > , " semirafields " > <semirafields> wrote: > > > > , " jagbir singh " > > <adishakti_org> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Semira, > > > > > > i find it difficult to believe that you regard arranged > marriages > > a > > > violation of human rights. > > > > *****And I find it shocking that you are trying to justify your > > repressive cultural conditioning, and expect everyone to have the > > same unreasonable thoughts as you on this issue. > > Not so long ago women were not even accorded the vote; for > centuries > > people saw this as acceptable and justifiable. It's people like > you > > who do not even see the reason for change being necessary. > > > > > > If that is the case, you are insulting > > > all the prophets, sages and gurus since time immemorial who > always > > > accepted arranged marriages. > > > > *****This is your presumption. Please give specific examples of > > which prophets got commitees to randomly arrange marriages. I > think > > I have missed out on some details here. I do not know of one > church > > or mosque doing this, but I'd certainly like to know more about > > this. > > Also, you are twisting the topic. The topic is not 'arranged > > marriages'as such; it is arranged marriages by the Sahaja > commitee, > > where partners are arbitarily chosen based on information given on > > forms. Arranged marriages in the present Muslim culture in Turkey > > are arranged by the families meeting each other, introducing the > > young people to each other, and after a period of getting to know > > each other deciding on a formal engagement, or not, depending; and > > after a certain time, the marriage will be arranged if the young > > people so wish. Sometimes young people meet a prospective partner > in > > their university or workplace, and in these cases, the families > get > > introduced to each other, and things proceed in a respectable > manner > > from here. This is nothing at all like is happening in the SY > > arranged marriages, where there is no time to guage compatibility > at > > all. > > And a horrifying thought; the SY ceremony is not legal, so at the > > time of the consumation of the marriage, the couple are not even > > legally bound. Do you understand the implications of this? > > > > > > > > > You are also insulting more than half of humanity as the Chinese > > and > > > Indians always had arranged marriage for millennia, and still do. > > > > ****Above I have described the procedure for Turkey. We are > talking > > about quite different issues and conditions. > > Another thing, though, just because a custom or tradition has been > > in practice for millennia, does NOT mean that it is right, as in > the > > case of patriarchy, no voting for women, slavery etc... > > > > > > > You are also insulting my parents who lived and loved each other > > > through all the trials and tribulations, thanks to the inherent > > > strength of their arranged marriage. > > *****I am very glad that they loved each other, Jagbir. Consider > > that there should be love between couples. > > > > > You are also insulting my best friend whose son, a chemical > > > engineer, was matched with an accountant just last month. > > *****Do the families know each other, and for how long? Or did > they > > just meet up at the ceremony? We're talking about vastly different > > things, and you know it. Would they be happy about their son > having > > got married to someone they knew nothing about, and who they had > no > > choice in the matter about? How many families would accept this > for > > their children? Just you tell me this; what families would accept > > that a commitee of people randomly choose the marriage partner for > > their child based on information in forms? > > > > > > > i am also going to get all my children married through arranged > > > marriage because i do not believe in this dating culture that > you > > > espouse in the name of human rights. > > ****Fine Jagbir. And you honestly tell me that you will allow > others > > to choose your child's marriage partner? I dare you to submit your > > child's form to the Sahaja commitee, and accept their choice. If > you > > are defending something, then you have to be prepared to apply it > to > > yourself; so do it. > > I want to know where I mentioned 'dating culture'? I am standing > up > > for people making their own informed choice; this is the issue. If > > you're trying to make out that I am advocating loose dating, you'd > > better think again. > > > > > > > Please come down to earth and read some hisotry. It is time you > > > learn to respect other cultures and their rich traditions that > > have > > > remarkably stood the test of time. > > ****They have 'remarkably' stood the test of time because they are > > excellent means of controlling people. These cultures are > > patriarchal, and a lot of evil has been done in the name > > of 'respecting the culture'. Someday I hope that people will be > > given value as individuals in all cultures. > > You do not know what I respect or not, and are again twisting the > > issue. The issue is not 'rich traditions'; it is about people > being > > reduced to lottery tickets. > > Give me the examples of cultures and systems in which a marriage > > committee chooses marriage partners. > > > > > > > Shri Mataji is just following the time-honored paths of these > > > ancient cultures. You just have no idea how ignorant and > > judgmental > > > you are if you think arranged marriages violate human rights. > > > > *****Shri Mataji has said that each person is to become their own > > guru. She has said that Sahaja Yoga is the awakening of the Spirit > > within. Allowing a marriage partner to be chosen by a committee is > > the very antithesis of these concepts. > > I understand that people have to behave with expected propriety > > according to the culture within which they find themselves. > > I mistakenly was under the impression that Sahaja Yoga went beyond > > cultural and religious barriers, however, I find it is creating > and > > enforcing them. Instead of respect and dignity for the individual, > I > > find the autonomy and integrity of the individual is disregarded. > > > > Best wishes, Semira > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > > jagbir > > > > > > > > > , " semirafields " > > > <semirafields> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Danny, > > > > Clearly the policy of arranged marriages in SY is a violation > of > > > > human rights, and should be investigated by appropriate > > > authorities. It is cruel, humiliating and dehumanising to be at > > the > > > mercy of a 'marriage commitee', and to be randomly paired off at > > the > > > whim of this commitee. How dare these people be responsible for > > > ruining the lives of others in this way, and deprive individuals > > of > > > the right to choose their own marriage partner? > > > > Is the actual marriage ceremony even legal, or are these > > marriages > > > > legally registered later on? > > > > Best wishes, Semira > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " kriptodanny " > > > > <kriptodanny> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The arranged marriages in sahaja yoga are a great insult to > > > > > spirituality.Not even Buddha or Mahommed did this > insanity.Not > > > > > Jesus,not Moses,not Confucius,and surely thing ..not Lao > > > Tze.There > > > > is > > > > > NO spiritual teacher or Incarnation on this earth who forced > > it's > > > > > followers to get matched by a Mariage Committee....of older > > > > yogis,whom they choose your life partner,while you must go to > > them > > > in India, after paying thousands of dollars in expences..so > > they,the > > > Marriage Committee..might match you on their own discretion.This > > is > > > an abomination of the spiritual laws.. > > > > > > > > > > I hope all the yogis wake up and realize the insanity of > this. > > > > > Jai Shri Mataji!!! > > > > > love,danny > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 , " semirafields " <semirafields> wrote: > > Dear Jagbir, > > -Can you explain to me what is meant by the affirmation 'I am my > own master'? > " I am my own master " means you will not be influnced by any human, and will follow the Truth and the Divine. No humans must or should influence you, a conviction that must stand all tests. You must intropect deeply on contentious issues and not allow the ego to get the better of you. You must seek guidance from the Shakti within and try to get answers in the thoughtless state. You must know that you can only be your own master if you are convinced that the Divine IS within and seek Truth from within too. You must know you are divine too and can attain the qualities of the Divine. Violet is a good example of this " I am my own master " affirmation if we understand what she is still going through to hold on to her beliefs and convictions. SYs who blindly follow others without examining the facts are the opposite i.e, " I am my own slave. " > -Can you explain to me why SYs are told to be 'detached'; yet are > compelled to be attached to protocols? > SYs who blindly follow others without examining the protocol and facts are the opposite i.e, " I am my own slave. " > -I do not care who endorses whatever; if something is > intrinsically wrong, it is wrong. > That is your own opinion and conviction that " I am my own master. " But i cannot agree because then " I will become my own slave. " > -The Sahaja arranged marriage system IS a violation of human > rights; and is behaviour indicative of a destructive cult. I am > still waiting for specific examples of cultures and systems in > which the individual leaves the choice of their marriage partner > to a marriage committee.(other than in destructive cults, of > course) > " Arranged: it is true that in the age of our forefathers this was the absolute norm. however, that was an age where the guy and girl probably accepted each other for better or worse and divorce was unheard of. Infact they agreed to marry each other without even having seen each other forget abut talking. The kids were mentally prepared for it. That was true acceptance. " Sohniya can vouch for what i am saying. i think you are trying to insist that it not true and still violates huamn rights since no marriage committee were involved. What i am saying is that there is not a considerable difference between a marriage committee and parents/village elders. Saying that, i personally will go for the later because they will bring forth the best results. This is because they know the bride and bridesgroom intimately and many issues are discussed, a serious defect that is missing from Sahaja Yoga marriages. But, on the other hand, if parents/village elders were to finalize a SY marriage i do not see any possibility of negotiations. How will the parents/village elders of a bride from Ukraine meet the parents/village elders of a bridesgroom from Argentina? It is both logistically and linguistically next to impossible. That is where the SY marriage committee comes in. Though you imply they are not suitable and will not care for the welfare of the parties, i have to disagree. i do believe they act in their best interest but cases of abuse of power has taken place. But i must emphasize that overwhemingly they act with diligence and utmost care. It is the best choice SYs have other than choosing partners on their own, which is freely allowed by Shri Mataji too. But if they want to marry in Sahaja Yoga they will have to leave the choice of their marriage partner to a marriage committee. It is a free choice. It is a consenting choice. It is a legal choice. It is an adult choice. How this violates human rights is way beyond my comprehension. SYs can bypass all this if they wish by seeking partners on their own. They have absolute freedom to do as they wish. How this option still violates the human rights of those opting for an arranged marriage is way beyond my comprehension too. Semira, you just need to understand the reality and not espouse your untenable stand the such marriages violate human rights. You can argue all the way to the Supreme Court. i assure you it will be tossed out without even be heard. The lower courts will do just that. > -What does following the Spirit within have to do with giving up > the right of the individual to choose their own marriage partner? > Same as above. And i keep telling you that it is a choice made by two CONSENTING ADULTS. You just have no right to judge/violate their God-given right to do so. What is the matter with you Semira? Don't you understand what " CONSENTING ADULTS " means? Right now i can honestly say that it is you who is violating the human rights of consenting adults to marry the way they see fit. You are the one who is abusing human rights. > Why should anyone put their future into the hands of other people, > especially people who are busy pretending that SY is a method of > stress release? Does this really seem rational behaviour to you? > You just cannot hit me below the belt and still insist the rules allow it. What has stress management got to do with violation of humam rights? Don't priests who sexually abuse children baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? ....... and legalize marriages too? The SYs you are talking about are angels compared to these monsters. > -The Sahaja Yoga organisation is a contradiction from beginning to > end. > a-Become your own master, but follow the leaders. > b-Experience freedom of the Spirit, but surrender to the protocols. > c-SY is the Truth, but you have to lie and deceive others into > joining. To stay in SY requires that you continually deceive > yourself, too. > d-SY is Love, but if you do not keep silent about cruelty and > abuse, you will be thrown out, vilified and labelled. > e-Do not fear; but everyone is fearful of expressing their > opinions. > " I am my own slave. " > There are many more, > Best wishes, Semira > Bring them on as i am all ears. with love and season's greetings, jagbir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 hello my name is kiran (female) DOB 27.04.77 time 23.38pm time zone GMT + 1 hour place wolverhampton, England i'm going to be 29 years old in april, i'm still not married, parents have been looking for past 3 years , still no luck. please tell me when will i get married? will i have a good marriage, good husband? any other remeedies for me for good husband and good marriage please? thankyou for your help and time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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