Guest guest Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Query: how can we assess that the guru of srividya is a sidhaguru because adisciple or a bhakt cannot ask the guru directly to him that {"are yousidha in srividya"} and it is difficult to understand that the guruhas got atmasakshakaram because,JAGADGURU ADI SANKARA CHARYA told inthe book VIVEKACHUDAMANI that ONE CANNOT EXPLAIN theathmasakshatkaram.Is reading the book and understand the srividya isenough that the ["intiation of srividya manthra"] through the book bythe author because,such type of books are can only be written by thesrividya upasakas--Kotaru Raghu II Om Shree Guru Padukaam Sharanam Prapadhye' II Reply: Dear Member, Srividya Upasana can never be had through books.It is most dangerous and insufficient, to say the least.It is like asking," Since I do not know how to build a Nuclear Bomb myself and cannot find a scientist who can help me with this, can I read from a book and build it?" Such queries arise purely from a clever play of the egoic mind which tries to see fallacious logic. Maybe a Nuclear bomb might be built seeing a book but Srividya Upasana can never or should never be practiced using books.The books might have been written by Srividya Upasakas and they follow their Guru Parampara and Sampradaya and many times a puja or ritual is customized for the disciple's need. Kularnava tantra says " At the beginning of Japa a Sadhaka is affected by birth uncleanness, and at the end of Japa by death uncleanness." A mantra affected by these two forms of uncleanness is never perfect and fruitful.And atrue Srividya Guru sees the "birth uncleanness'' before imparting a mantra and sees to that you do not get a "death uncleanness" after chanting the mantra. In the Kulaagama, Gurus have been described as of six classes 1. Instigator 2. Inaugurator 3. Explainer 4. Director 5. Teacher 6. Illuminator Thus, a Srividya Guru would first instigate a desire at the behest of Amba in the disciple and the disciple is then drawn to him. The aspirant who decides to take up this Upasana must be 1. Extremely sincere 2. Devoted to SriDevi 3. Possesses good character 4. Hailing from a good family 5. Pure in mind 6.Keen on attaining the 4 Purusharthas(dharmArthakAmamOksA) 7. Who has studied or atleast takes in interest in Vedas and Upanishads 8. Considersthis path the means of BrahmaGnana. Only such a Shishya when seeking a Srividya Guru is really successful. Upadesha learnt from books causes the following to happen: 1. Increases the misery of the aspirant 2. Unproductive and also detrimental to the wellbeing of himself and his family 3. Incurs the wrath of Devi dueto disrespect of the sacred bond of Shishya and Guru. The Guru actually draws His disciples and thus there is no question of the Shishya "assessing" a Guru's worth as a ''Siddhaguru"."Praapthi" must be there too. (If the temple is in the form of a Srichakra Mahameru, who will perform the worship of the temple? Im just wondering here) These days, deplorably, many charlatans for pelf and power start Srividya crash courses, workshops,etc and it has become a business oriented thing.People build temples with unique shapes and designs, claiming commands and oracles/orders of Devi(where none existed in the first place),fabricate stories around the temple,perform unseen and unheard of rituals,effect fake miracles to attract people and build commercial ventures around the temple for mere commerce.All these do not constitute for Srividya and is a mere waste of time.I wish they use some other word for all these and not even use the word Srividya for anything. "Growing beards and adorning a Tripundreekam with a kumkuma dot on the forehead doth not make a Gnani"--Adhiyaman Yogi One might as well sit in home and chant Hare'Rama Hare' Krishna mantra.Im not joking here.Infact, this mantra too is powerful in relieving the sins of Kaliyuga. Srividya is a Moksha-Vidhya. II Mokshaika Hetu Vidhya Srividhya Na samshayaha: II Rameshwara Suri, in the course of his commentary on the Parashurama Kalpasutras, quotes this verse:guravo bahavaH santi shishyavittApahArakAH .durlabhoyaM gurudevi shishyasantApahArakaH.One should look for Guru who rids shishya of his ignorance, not wealth! Due to the grace of a proper Guru, all the obstacles and inconveniences of the shishya in acquiring Brahma Jnana are destroyed. By constantly chanting the mantra taught to him, the shishya overcomes all misery and enjoys supreme bliss. The mantra is verily the essence of the Guru-Guruparampara and the Devi in a small pill.The more such pills are taken daily, the better the spiritual health of the aspirant. One example of how powerful yantras are printed in books and that too faulty manner(like above) and then propogandized for some minor benefit.What the defect is in the above Yantra will not be said by me but if one knows Telugu and reads through the text below one finds that they have told some parrot-like story about getting all benefits(which again totally false) These days people like to read from books, consider themselves as Ekalavya(even Ekalavya learnt the initial arrow-shooting practices from Dronacharya and then he was shooed away by him because he lied to his Guru and then practiced it on his own.We celebrate such negative heros and authors either do not know or conviniently forget that Ekalavya supported the Kuru dynasty(Kauravas) and Dronacharya who knew this did not want adharma to succeed) One must serve one's Guru to the best of one's ability, having total faith in the Guru and chanting the mantra taught by him constantly.Now, this does not mean one should not have viveka and vichara andd totally surrender one's mathi.One must use vichakshana gnanam(discriminative intellect), study scriptures and sometimes even clarify or challenge one's Guru.Only if a Guru is able to satisfy Him in all matters scriptural and spiritual, can He be called a True Srividya Guru. When I talk to some people and when I quote something of the Srividya Scriptures, they say: "My Guru said this, he said that... and this... we don't care what the shaastras say" This is not the right attitude, the right spirit.This is mere laziness on the partof the sadhaka.The ever-vigilant sadhaka is always on a search, an eternal search.He reads as many related shastras as possible and then uses his God-given intellect and then decides upon his course of action with the guidance of a Guru. The moment a Guru says, "Shastras are not important, don't care for them", especially in this Srividya marga, then it means he knows nothing and is just taking people for a ride with his organization and charisma.This was told by my Gurunatha even though He does not keep mentioning about Shastras(though encouraging one to study it fully).This again is Kaliyuga Maya. In Srividya, the guru shishya lineage has come as an unbroken chain, starting from the first guru, Paramashiva. ''At the time of Diksha, the Guru will teach the Guru Paduka mantra. The shishya is taught about his immediate Guru, his Guru's Guru and his Guru. The Shishya should develop the attitude that the Guru's feet rest on his head, the Paramaguru's feet on the Guru's head and so on.''(This statement is given in the scriptures). As the Phala Sruti of Sri Lalita Sahasranama says, only the person who in crores of births and deaths has sung the names of other deities will develop some sincerity and interest in singing the names of Mahatripurasundari.Only in the last Janma, one becomes a Srividya Upasaka. Those who have earned this through their Tapas in many Janmas, will enter this Upasana Marga. When Aadishankara said in Viveka Chudamani: "One cannot explain Aathmasaakshatkaram" It means that such knowledge is not to be understood by the tool called mind but by means of an experiential means THROUGH the grace of a Guru.This is the proper way of understanding this. Also, the same Viveka Chudamani in verse 28 says thus: Even though torpid or mediocre, this yearning for Freedom, through the grace of the Guru, may bear fruit (being developed) by means of Vairagya (renunciation), Shama (calmness), and so on. He starts with "Grace of Guru" and not a mere reading of texts, convincing oneself euphemistically that those were written by Srividya Upasakas.Every spiritual path, especially Srividya, requires the guidance of an enlightened Guru, without who, the spiritual journey is into a dark, unknown territory. A person becomes a spiritual aspirant, when he possesses the sAdhanA ChatuShTaya(talked about in the above Viveka Chudamani): Viveka - discrimination Vairagya - dispassion ShamAdi Shat Sampatti (the treasure of six qualities: Shama - control or mastery over the mind, dama - control of the sensory organs or Indriyas, Uparati - strict observance of one's Dharma, TitikshA - endurance of heat, cold, pleasure, pain etc., shraddhA - faith in the words of Guru and Veda Shastra, Samadhana - contentedness and single-pointedness of the mind). Mumukshatva - Intense desire for liberation. Viveka Chudamani also mentions that a Guru must have Brahma-nishta and a Shrotriya. Srividya Marga being a Guru-baddha marga must be "listened to" and then "learnt" and not merely "read".This forms the unbroken lineage. Verse 160 of Viveka Chudamani says thus: The stupid man thinks he is the body, the book-learned man identifies himself with the mixture of body and soul, while the sage possessed of realisation due to discrimination looks upon the eternal Atman as his Self, and thinks, "I am Brahman".Here too Adishankara clearly dilineates the uselessness of bookish knowledge. There are many such instances where He quotes both the importance of having a Guru and also the uselessnessof mere bookish knowledge. 'Bookish knowledge' when obtained from a proper Guru becomes Gnana as the words in the book become an experiential reality.This is the beauty! I can tell this from my limited and humble experience itself, though a totally unqualified and undesreving person that Iam, many experiences quoted in Srividya texts, Anubhutis as mentioned from Purushasuktha to Durga suktha, and many aparokshanubhavas, happened to me and when these were realized by me in the meditative states purely because my Gurunatha deigned to give me. Sri Adi Shankara Himself is a Samayacharin(Samayachara Srividya Sampradaya practioner) and thus had a Guru Himself. So, while quoting one text(in this case Viveka Chudamani) one must never quote selectively and try to understand the import in a wholistic manner. Yours yogically, Shreeram Balijepalli Hreem Rajarajeshwari Paradevatha! Purity, Powers, Parabrahmam... Click to join Rajarajeshwari_Kalpataru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Dear Ernakulam Venugopalanji, My first impulse was to delete your posting as I did not want to waste time rebutting your arguments but then many readers in the group might have similar such ideas in their mind, so yours was a classic example to prove the erronoeus thinking which is inherent in so many people in Kaliyuga. Please read my replies(Tarkawadam) in green font, analyzing your arguments threadbare.What I might say might not be palatable to you but I have nevertheless boldly stated my arguments for the sake of members in the group. "Sweet words are never sincere, Sincere words are never sweet"--Tao Te Ching. Thankyou for providing me an opportunity to further clarify my stand and provide some information to other members. Yours yogically, Shreeram Balijepalli - Srividya-Tantra , ernakulam venugopalan <bhakta36 wrote:>> > The attached message is written by a learned man. I belive in one of your postings about Mahaperiyaval of Kanchi where this person did sapthasati homam without Navakshari upadesham and periyaval asked how his daughter was etc... So if our sages and saints have decreed that initiation is required, are they wrong and this person is right? please explain I do not know which story you are refering to here.Every argument must be provided by strong corroborative evidence, else should not be raised by throwing the gauntlet in my court by using words like "I believe in one of your postings about Mahaperiyawal", you seek to raise my emotional temperature for which I refuse to fall. Now, coming to your point: Even hypotehtically, if Mahaperiyawal had asked a person to do a Saptashati Homam without Navakshari, it would have been appropriate as He is a Mahan who could look into past births and then decide where an aspirant stands. So, your question of whether sages and saints are wrong and 'this person'(referring to the person whom Mahamperiyawal allowed as you say I presume) is in the nature of The logical fallacy called:Fallacy of Many Questions (Plurium Interrogationum), wherein several questions are improperly grouped in the form of one, and a direct categorical answer is demanded, e.g. If a prosecuting counsel asked the prisoner " What time was it when you met this man? " with the intention of eliciting the tacit admission that such a meeting had taken place. Another example is the classic line, "Have you stopped beating your wife?"Now, if I start to answer your question regarding the whether Sages or saints were wrong and "this person" right? then I would fall for your plurium Interrogationum! " if one's parents did not do a proper "anna praasana" ritual (the ritual of first feeding of solid food to a baby) to one, should one consider oneself not entitled to eat any solid food? "Not doing a mantra because of no initiation is basically like that. Your point here is weak on 2 Logical grounds 1. Begging the question 2. Weak analogy 1. Begging the question(Petitio Principii):Begging the Question is a fallacy in which the premises include the claim that the conclusion is true or (directly or indirectly) assume that the conclusion is true. This sort of "reasoning" typically has the following form. Premises in which the truth of the conclusion is claimed or the truth of the conclusion is assumed (either directly or indirectly). Claim C (the conclusion) is true. This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because simply assuming that the conclusion is true (directly or indirectly) in the premises does not constitute evidence for that conclusion. Obviously, simply assuming a claim is true does not serve as evidence for that claim. This is especially clear in particularly blatant cases: "X is true. The evidence for this claim is that X is true." Some cases of question begging are fairly blatant, while others can be extremely subtle as in your case. One example I can give for this type of logical fallacy is: Bill: "God must exist." Jill: "How do you know." Bill: "Because the Bible says so." Jill: "Why should I believe the Bible?" Bill: "Because the Bible was written by God." The basic premise here is that Bill believes God exists and thus needs no proof to adduce that and thus goes about in a circular way. In your case Annaprasanam is taken to be an example and you build your argument thereby but already there is a strong point in you that mantra initiation is just a ritual and not necessary. 2. Weak Analogy: Annaprasanam is a Vaideeka Samskara and not a Deeksha paddhathi as in the case of Mantra initiation and thus you cannot say for example: "Orange is a fruit, grape is a fruit and thus while orange is a fruit which is orange in colour, grape which is not oragne in colour cannot be a fruit" This is because orange and grapes belong to different categories. The significance of the Annaprasana Samskara was this that children were weaned away from their mothers at proper time. They were not left at the caprice of their parents who often injure their children by overfeeding them without taking into consideration their digestive capacity. The feeding ceremony also warned the mother that at a certain time she should stop suckling the child. The ignorant mother, out of love for her child, goes on suckling it up to a year or more. But she little realizes that thereby she allows her own energy to be sapped away without doing real good to the child. A timely caution was given by the ceremony for the benefit of both the child and the mother. On the day of the feeding ceremony the materials of sacrificial food were first of all cleansed and then cooked with appropriate Vedic verses. When food was prepared, one oblation was offered to Speech with words, "The gods have generated the goddess, Speech, manifold animals speak her forth. May she, the sweet-sounding, the highly praised one, come to us. Svaha!" The next oblation was offered to vigour, "May vigour come to us today." Having made the above sacrifices, the father offered further four oblations with the following phrases: "Through upbreathing may I enjoy food, Svaha! Through downbreathing may I enjoy food. Svaha! Through my eye, may I enjoy, visible things. Svaha! Through my ear, may I enjoy fame. Svaha!" Here the word "food" is used in a spiritual sense. The prayer was offered that all the senses of the child could be gratified so that he may live a happy and contented and highly spiritual life. But one thing was kept in mind. One in search of gratification should not violate the rules of health and morality, because it would spoil the dharma inhrenet of the man.In the end the father set apart food of all kinds and flavours for feeding the child and fed it silently or with the syllable "Hant (well)." The ceremony terminated with the feasting of Brahmanas. Now, your argument is that "is annaprasanam necessary for a person to feed on solids? Cannot the person feed on solids without it?" This again is a "Plurium interrogatium", I would however say everyone eats even an animal without any annaprasanam but what differentiates us from an animal is the samskaras as a humanbeing for which Vedas offer a refined way of evolvement. > Getting initiation is good, especially if the one initiating has some level of sadhana in that mantra. But it is neither necessary nor sufficient for making progress in your own sadhana. You are absolutely wrong here. Getting intiation is not something which is merely "good" but that which is essential in the path of Srividya. I do not want to comment on other paths but for Srividya, getting initiation from a proper Srividya adept IS A MUST.It is necessary for the progress of one's Srividya sadhana. Most of the people who enter into the spiritual path without Gurus considering themselves to be someone great is merely an egoistical exercise which yields no lasting results, leve alone moksha. > > If you see my homam document, I gave an analogy for this. A millionaire may open a bank account in his son's name with a starting balance of a million dollars. This is akin to a good guru initiating a sishya in a mantra. Sishya starts off by getting some of guru's attainment. But the son may waste those million dollars and end up with nothing. Similarly the sishya may fall and not achieve anything. Another person may not have anyone to give money and may start off with a zero bank balance but accumulate millions of dollars with own effort. This is akin to a person doing sadhana with a mantra without guru and attaining some level in the mantra. The anaology here is again weak and wrong: I can argue thus here. A millionaire might open a bank account in his son's name but never will a Srividya Upasaka who is of right mind give out mantras to everyone unless He knows the calibre of the person and where he stands and whether he would sustain the pressures of the Srividya sadhana. Also, the Guru would monitor the progress of the shishya's sadhana(unlike the Millionaire leaving his son to lurch!) (Also, your analogy is weak because no one can accumulate millions of dollars starting with a zero balance in bank, unless one has the support and help of people cruicial in their career.Please read the latest book by Malcolm Gladwell called "Outliers" and you will know that every rags to riches story has a benefactor behind.) Mantras you might achieve some "level" without a Guru but Srividya upasana is a brahma upasana and an ends in ultimate Gnana and this requires not just mere chanting of mantras to achieve some ephemeral level but to understand experientially each and every beeja of that mantra. > > Some people hold the view that mantras cannot be chanted without a proper "initiation" . This view is especially prevalent in some sections of society w.r.t. navarna mantra. However, I disagree with that view. I think here you are confused with navrna mantra which refers to Chandika mantra and Srividya Nava-varana-puja mantras which are even advanced.> > If you know the mantra (!), just chant it. I think this sounds like Nike shoes advert: Just do it! What would an initiating guru have done for you? He gives a new birth Perhaps he would've given some of his attainment in the mantra to you. Well, you can do it yourself if you work hard. If you are referring to Shaktipatham--tranferrence of spiritual energy.Yes, He does that and more.If He belongs to a proper Guru Sampradaya, then He gives a connection to His Guru-Parampara, His Guru-Mandala, who start protecting the aspirant.I guess, you are not aware of such details. Or a guru would've taught you the right nyasas to be done before the mantra. Well, you can get the nyasas from books too. There are many Nyasaas which are specific to 1. One's Guru Parampara 2. To oneself--which the Guru customizes asking Paradevatha Herself. These would not be sadly available in a book in the market. Moreover, what most people do today for nyasas is anyway just a ritual with no meaning. Nyasa literally means placement. You place various sounds in various body parts (like the tips of various fingers, heart, top of head, eyes etc). People merely act out some signals while saying the sounds. This "placement" is actually supposed to be an internal act and it creates an ideal environment for the repetition of mantra. Due to the external actions, what is supposed to occur internally does not occur in most. So the sounds end up not getting properly placed in the body. In other words, what I am trying to say is that most people do not know how to "place" various "sounds" in various body parts. They merely perform meaningless ritualistic actions. So, if you do not know nyasas, you are not really missing much compared to others who were initiated. If you do not know how to perform Nyasaas properly, you miss the whole point! It is like going to an exam without a scribe-tool(pen or pencil) and trying to etch the paper with one's nails some answers and hope that the examiner sees it! I would request you to first have proper knowledge of what Nyaasa is, than accusing all people(who are both innocent and ignorant of such advanced spiritual sciences) what they don't know. Nyaasa is not a mere "placing" of some sound on one's fingertips.It is a process of 'divinizing'one's body by the use of mantras or beejas and touching the parts and visualizing creatively using energy fields in the presence(learnt in the presence) of a Srividya Guru. Now, with a Guru and a Sampradaya you get a whole package of Srividya rituals starting from customized and individual mantras to nyasaas and even yanthras(not all get even sri chakra!, mind you).These are specifically crafted based on mny centuries of unbroken(avichinna parampara) lineage of Yogis and Munis who fit into the path. One Upasaka rightly points out thus(he mentions this for mantras and nyasas learnt from various gurus. (He would not even talk to you, if you go before him and talk about getting 'initiations' from books!) "If one picks one thing from here and another thing from elsewhere, the synchrony is lost in the big picture and the resulting energetic effect is simply that of chaos.For example, a lineage that uses hayagrIva as the R^iShi for panchadashI, uses a certain form of parA bIja in bAlA, sR^iShTi krama in nyAsas, a certain form of shrIchakra, does away with tripura bhairavI, uses specific mudrAs for guruvandana etc. Such peculiarities are of great significance as they result in a bigger energetic portrait of the entire practice at a higher level and any element that does not fit into this picture brings about imbalance. Hence the importance of Guru-sampradAya." There are many types of nyasa, with some being very complex and elaborate. The Mahashodha Nyasa, where a sadhaka or sadhvika places planets, constellations, sacred sites and other elements of Lalita's cosmology on his or her body. This demonstrates the identity of macrocosm and microcosm in the tantrik tradition.This is similar to some Taoist practicesI had learnt which also does something of a similar nature.(Mind you though Tantric texts say Mahachinacharam to which Taoism belong to does not need a Guru, I had a Guru.Such is the importance and gravity to be given for every spiritual subject) Utmost concentration and focus is necessary and a light comment from you stating that "since external actions hinder" the process, it is better to leave it.(Coming back to my example: Since carrying a pen or pencil is such a pain when we have nails, we can better leave it at home!..see, the analogy must be appropriate so that it can be fitted at any place in the argument, this is called "Universality of analogical arguments") Nyasaas form the substratum for your mantraic development in the body.It gives you the necessary power to withstand the mantra shakthi.It gives you tremendous power and a fulfilment to your mantra sadhana. Why am I elaborately and threadbare typing these to you at this midnight? Because If I were a jew and I had been put to gas chamber a dozen times by a dozen hitlers, still I would not want even one among those dozen hitlers to suffer what I suffered when I read mantras from books and practiced Kundalini Tantra and had a Naadi channel go awry and suffer burning hell(even to this some scars remain mentally) for 3 years.Death would have been sweeter during those suffering days.I went into coma, underwent brain scan, became a tempest in my parents life at their old age because of my stupidity.Please heed my advice. > > In my humble opinion, the most important qualification is to have devotion and sense of surrender to Her. If you have them, you can consider yourself "highly initiated". My humble opinion on this would be: If you have devotion to Devi. You would do what She supports and says in the scriptures.These rituals and processes are liked by Her.There is no doubt about it.You have to have a sense of self-discipline in this path. Sense of surrender never comes at the outset itself to Devi. It must come necessarily through a Master, a Guru, a Srividya baddha Guru in this marga. If I have hurt your feelings by my candidness, I apologize for the same. I would rather apologize after correcting some evil I see than condoning it with sweet words. If you still have a light opinion about deeksha, then only Amba should save you. I rest my speeding fingers now, Shreeram Balijepalli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Not only that, the member replied back promptly stating that he has changed his stance and he was misunderstood by me and that one needs a Guru and that all the while he has been saying that.Hmm, I have nothing to say as long he sticks to this concept. He also quotes a story of MahaPeriyaval of Kanchi and a girl suffering from epeleptic fits. I would like to mention here that he has got the story wrong. First, it is a story of HH Sri Chandrashekara Bharathi Mahasannidhanam of Sringeri and not Chandrashekarendra Saraswathi of Kanchi Muttam. Second, the story supports my stand on getting initiated into mantras from a Guru. The story is as follows and comes in the book by Krishnaswamy Ayyar's "Divine Light of Sringeri": A Durga temple was opened in some place in Andhra and the temple committee appointed a priest. After few months, the priest went with Prasadam to H H Sri Chandrashekhara Bharati Mahasannidhanam and said,"Your Holiness, I have recited Saptashati 108 times and brought you Prasadam. Please accept it and bless me". Mahaswamigal gazed at him for a second and said, "How is your daughter?" The startled Brahmana answered, "She is unwell these days. She is suffering from epileptic fits". Mahaswamigal immediately said,"Without Navakashari you have been chanting Saptashati. This is like banging your head on an iron box to open it. You have been sent here by Sharadambal only because of your past Samskaras and Bhakti. Please receive the mantra as per the proper means from Sri Srikantha Sastrigal, perform LakshaJapa and then start chanting Saptashati. Without a Guru, don't try experimenting with Mani,Mantra and Aushadha. Adi Acharya has gracefully given us divine Stotras with miraculous powers. The uninitiated should chant these Stotras with faith and obtain blessings of the Divine" Mahasannidhanam says thus because in Kaatyaayani Tantra says that "Sapthashati chanted without Navarna Japa is like trying to eat a mango seed and hoping to grow a mango tree and consume the resulting mango fruit." The text also mentions Yogini Shapam(Curse from Yoginis related to Chandika Devi) Shreeram Balijepalli Srividya-Tantra , raghavender ganti <rganti9 wrote:>> > Sri Gurubhyon Namaha> Really an excellent reply to the queries, Guru dhyana is the first thing and the last thing a upasaka does everyday, as he is the light that helps you reach your destination, that is why an upasaka has to do his gurupaduka smaranam as soon as he wakes up on his bed and before he goes to sleep. Lalitha is gurumandala rupini, and hence there is no need to elaborate on the greatness of guru, every great man or purusha has shown the greatness of guru by resorting to and submitting to guru. > > When one can rebuke some parts of the scripture and endorse the others it is like taking some medicines which one likes in taste and leaving off others which dont tastee well, and in the end do you wish to be cured because you have taken the medicines, to remove the jadhya of samsara Srividya is the medicine, the first step is to resort to a proper doctor who can see if you are worth the medication which is guru and he tells you some basic methods or pre clinical tests like bala and other mantras, once these medicines have effect on you then he would prescribe the full course of treatment, which would depend on the sincirety of the upasaka or the patient, and prarabdha relates to how well you respond to the treatment.> > In the end have complete faith and totally surrender to your guru, if you dont have one pray to amba constantly using other slokas or prayers that nee no initiation seeking her help for a guru, when you are qualified, she would send a guru or she would herself guide you> > Sri Kamakshi > > > > Srividya-Tantra: para_anuloma: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:44:34 +0000[srividya-Tantra] Re: Guru Query Answered> > > > > Dear Ernakulam Venugopalanji,> My first impulse was to delete your posting as I did not want to waste time rebutting your arguments but then many readers in the group might have similar such ideas in their mind, so yours was a classic example to prove the erronoeus thinking which is inherent in so many people in Kaliyuga.> Please read my replies(Tarkawadam) in green font, analyzing your arguments threadbare.What I might say might not be palatable to you but I have nevertheless boldly stated my arguments for the sake of members in the group.> "Sweet words are never sincere, Sincere words are never sweet"--Tao Te Ching.> Thankyou for providing me an opportunity to further clarify my stand and provide some information to other members.> Yours yogically,> Shreeram Balijepalli> -> Srividya-Tantra , ernakulam venugopalan bhakta36@ wrote:>> > The attached message is written by a learned man. I belive in one of your postings about Mahaperiyaval of Kanchi where this person did sapthasati homam without Navakshari upadesham and periyaval asked how his daughter was etc... So if our sages and saints have decreed that initiation is required, are they wrong and this person is right? please explain> I do not know which story you are refering to here.Every argument must be provided by strong corroborative evidence, else should not be raised by throwing the gauntlet in my court by using words like "I believe in one of your postings about Mahaperiyawal", you seek to raise my emotional temperature for which I refuse to fall.> Now, coming to your point: Even hypotehtically, if Mahaperiyawal had asked a person to do a Saptashati Homam without Navakshari, it would have been appropriate as He is a Mahan who could look into past births and then decide where an aspirant stands.> So, your question of whether sages and saints are wrong and 'this person'(referring to the person whom Mahamperiyawal allowed as you say I presume) is in the nature of The logical fallacy called:Fallacy of Many Questions (Plurium Interrogationum), wherein several questions are improperly grouped in the form of one, and a direct categorical answer is demanded, e.g. If a prosecuting counsel asked the prisoner " What time was it when you met this man? " with the intention of eliciting the tacit admission that such a meeting had taken place. Another example is the classic line, "Have you stopped beating your wife?"Now, if I start to answer your question regarding the whether Sages or saints were wrong and "this person" right? then I would fall for your plurium Interrogationum! > " if one's parents did not do a proper "anna praasana" ritual (the ritual of first feeding of solid food to a baby) to one, should one consider oneself not entitled to eat any solid food? "Not doing a mantra because of no initiation is basically like that.> Your point here is weak on 2 Logical grounds> 1. Begging the question> 2. Weak analogy> 1. Begging the question(Petitio Principii):Begging the Question is a fallacy in which the premises include the claim that the conclusion is true or (directly or indirectly) assume that the conclusion is true. This sort of "reasoning" typically has the following form. > > > Premises in which the truth of the conclusion is claimed or the truth of the conclusion is assumed (either directly or indirectly). > Claim C (the conclusion) is true. > This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because simply assuming that the conclusion is true (directly or indirectly) in the premises does not constitute evidence for that conclusion. Obviously, simply assuming a claim is true does not serve as evidence for that claim. This is especially clear in particularly blatant cases: "X is true. The evidence for this claim is that X is true." Some cases of question begging are fairly blatant, while others can be extremely subtle as in your case. > One example I can give for this type of logical fallacy is: > Bill: "God must exist." Jill: "How do you know." Bill: "Because the Bible says so." Jill: "Why should I believe the Bible?" Bill: "Because the Bible was written by God." > The basic premise here is that Bill believes God exists and thus needs no proof to adduce that and thus goes about in a circular way. > In your case Annaprasanam is taken to be an example and you build your argument thereby but already there is a strong point in you that mantra initiation is just a ritual and not necessary. > 2. Weak Analogy: Annaprasanam is a Vaideeka Samskara and not a Deeksha paddhathi as in the case of Mantra initiation and thus you cannot say for example: "Orange is a fruit, grape is a fruit and thus while orange is a fruit which is orange in colour, grape which is not oragne in colour cannot be a fruit" > This is because orange and grapes belong to different categories. > The significance of the Annaprasana Samskara was this that children were weaned away from their mothers at proper time. They were not left at the caprice of their parents who often injure their children by overfeeding them without taking into consideration their digestive capacity. The feeding ceremony also warned the mother that at a certain time she should stop suckling the child. The ignorant mother, out of love for her child, goes on suckling it up to a year or more. But she little realizes that thereby she allows her own energy to be sapped away without doing real good to the child. A timely caution was given by the ceremony for the benefit of both the child and the mother.> On the day of the feeding ceremony the materials of sacrificial food were first of all cleansed and then cooked with appropriate Vedic verses. When food was prepared, one oblation was offered to Speech with words, "The gods have generated the goddess, Speech, manifold animals speak her forth. May she, the sweet-sounding, the highly praised one, come to us. Svaha!" The next oblation was offered to vigour, "May vigour come to us today." Having made the above sacrifices, the father offered further four oblations with the following phrases: "Through upbreathing may I enjoy food, Svaha! Through downbreathing may I enjoy food. Svaha! Through my eye, may I enjoy, visible things. Svaha! Through my ear, may I enjoy fame. Svaha!" Here the word "food" is used in a spiritual sense. The prayer was offered that all the senses of the child could be gratified so that he may live a happy and contented and highly spiritual life. But one thing was kept in mind. One in search of gratification should not violate the rules of health and morality, because it would spoil the dharma inhrenet of the man.In the end the father set apart food of all kinds and flavours for feeding the child and fed it silently or with the syllable "Hant (well)." The ceremony terminated with the feasting of Brahmanas.> Now, your argument is that "is annaprasanam necessary for a person to feed on solids? Cannot the person feed on solids without it?"> This again is a "Plurium interrogatium", I would however say everyone eats even an animal without any annaprasanam but what differentiates us from an animal is the samskaras as a humanbeing for which Vedas offer a refined way of evolvement.> > Getting initiation is good, especially if the one initiating has some level of sadhana in that mantra. But it is neither necessary nor sufficient for making progress in your own sadhana.> You are absolutely wrong here. Getting intiation is not something which is merely "good" but that which is essential in the path of Srividya. I do not want to comment on other paths but for Srividya, getting initiation from a proper Srividya adept IS A MUST.It is necessary for the progress of one's Srividya sadhana.> Most of the people who enter into the spiritual path without Gurus considering themselves to be someone great is merely an egoistical exercise which yields no lasting results, leve alone moksha.> > > If you see my homam document, I gave an analogy for this. A millionaire may open a bank account in his son's name with a starting balance of a million dollars. This is akin to a good guru initiating a sishya in a mantra. Sishya starts off by getting some of guru's attainment. But the son may waste those million dollars and end up with nothing. Similarly the sishya may fall and not achieve anything. Another person may not have anyone to give money and may start off with a zero bank balance but accumulate millions of dollars with own effort. This is akin to a person doing sadhana with a mantra without guru and attaining some level in the mantra.> The anaology here is again weak and wrong:> I can argue thus here. A millionaire might open a bank account in his son's name but never will a Srividya Upasaka who is of right mind give out mantras to everyone unless He knows the calibre of the person and where he stands and whether he would sustain the pressures of the Srividya sadhana.> Also, the Guru would monitor the progress of the shishya's sadhana(unlike the Millionaire leaving his son to lurch!)> (Also, your analogy is weak because no one can accumulate millions of dollars starting with a zero balance in bank, unless one has the support and help of people cruicial in their career.Please read the latest book by Malcolm Gladwell called "Outliers" and you will know that every rags to riches story has a benefactor behind.)> Mantras you might achieve some "level" without a Guru but Srividya upasana is a brahma upasana and an ends in ultimate Gnana and this requires not just mere chanting of mantras to achieve some ephemeral level but to understand experientially each and every beeja of that mantra.> > > Some people hold the view that mantras cannot be chanted without a proper "initiation" . This view is especially prevalent in some sections of society w.r.t. navarna mantra. However, I disagree with that view.> I think here you are confused with navrna mantra which refers to Chandika mantra and Srividya Nava-varana-puja mantras which are even advanced.> > If you know the mantra (!), just chant it. > I think this sounds like Nike shoes advert: Just do it! > What would an initiating guru have done for you? > He gives a new birth> Perhaps he would've given some of his attainment in the mantra to you. Well, you can do it yourself if you work hard.> If you are referring to Shaktipatham--tranferrence of spiritual energy.Yes, He does that and more.If He belongs to a proper Guru Sampradaya, then He gives a connection to His Guru-Parampara, His Guru-Mandala, who start protecting the aspirant.I guess, you are not aware of such details.> > Or a guru would've taught you the right nyasas to be done before the mantra. Well, you can get the nyasas from books too. > There are many Nyasaas which are specific to> 1. One's Guru Parampara> 2. To oneself--which the Guru customizes asking Paradevatha Herself.> These would not be sadly available in a book in the market.> Moreover, what most people do today for nyasas is anyway just a ritual with no meaning. Nyasa literally means placement. You place various sounds in various body parts (like the tips of various fingers, heart, top of head, eyes etc). People merely act out some signals while saying the sounds. This "placement" is actually supposed to be an internal act and it creates an ideal environment for the repetition of mantra. Due to the external actions, what is supposed to occur internally does not occur in most. So the sounds end up not getting properly placed in the body. In other words, what I am trying to say is that most people do not know how to "place" various "sounds" in various body parts. They merely perform meaningless ritualistic actions. So, if you do not know nyasas, you are not really missing much compared to others who were initiated.> If you do not know how to perform Nyasaas properly, you miss the whole point! It is like going to an exam without a scribe-tool(pen or pencil) and trying to etch the paper with one's nails some answers and hope that the examiner sees it!> I would request you to first have proper knowledge of what Nyaasa is, than accusing all people(who are both innocent and ignorant of such advanced spiritual sciences) what they don't know.> Nyaasa is not a mere "placing" of some sound on one's fingertips.It is a process of 'divinizing'one's body by the use of mantras or beejas and touching the parts and visualizing creatively using energy fields in the presence(learnt in the presence) of a Srividya Guru.> Now, with a Guru and a Sampradaya you get a whole package of Srividya rituals starting from customized and individual mantras to nyasaas and even yanthras(not all get even sri chakra!, mind you).These are specifically crafted based on mny centuries of unbroken(avichinna parampara) lineage of Yogis and Munis who fit into the path. > One Upasaka rightly points out thus(he mentions this for mantras and nyasas learnt from various gurus.> (He would not even talk to you, if you go before him and talk about getting 'initiations' from books!)> "If one picks one thing from here and another thing from elsewhere, the synchrony is lost in the big picture and the resulting energetic effect is simply that of chaos.For example, a lineage that uses hayagrIva as the R^iShi for panchadashI, uses a certain form of parA bIja in bAlA, sR^iShTi krama in nyAsas, a certain form of shrIchakra, does away with tripura bhairavI, uses specific mudrAs for guruvandana etc. Such peculiarities are of great significance as they result in a bigger energetic portrait of the entire practice at a higher level and any element that does not fit into this picture brings about imbalance. Hence the importance of Guru-sampradAya."> There are many types of nyasa, with some being very complex and elaborate. The Mahashodha Nyasa, where a sadhaka or sadhvika places planets, constellations, sacred sites and other elements of Lalita's cosmology on his or her body. This demonstrates the identity of macrocosm and microcosm in the tantrik tradition.This is similar to some Taoist practicesI had learnt which also does something of a similar nature.(Mind you though Tantric texts say Mahachinacharam to which Taoism belong to does not need a Guru, I had a Guru.Such is the importance and gravity to be given for every spiritual subject)> Utmost concentration and focus is necessary and a light comment from you stating that "since external actions hinder" the process, it is better to leave it.(Coming back to my example: Since carrying a pen or pencil is such a pain when we have nails, we can better leave it at home!..see, the analogy must be appropriate so that it can be fitted at any place in the argument, this is called "Universality of analogical arguments")> Nyasaas form the substratum for your mantraic development in the body.It gives you the necessary power to withstand the mantra shakthi.It gives you tremendous power and a fulfilment to your mantra sadhana.> Why am I elaborately and threadbare typing these to you at this midnight? Because If I were a jew and I had been put to gas chamber a dozen times by a dozen hitlers, still I would not want even one among those dozen hitlers to suffer what I suffered when I read mantras from books and practiced Kundalini Tantra and had a Naadi channel go awry and suffer burning hell(even to this some scars remain mentally) for 3 years.Death would have been sweeter during those suffering days.I went into coma, underwent brain scan, became a tempest in my parents life at their old age because of my stupidity.Please heed my advice.> > > In my humble opinion, the most important qualification is to have devotion and sense of surrender to Her. If you have them, you can consider yourself "highly initiated".> My humble opinion on this would be:> If you have devotion to Devi. You would do what She supports and says in the scriptures.These rituals and processes are liked by Her.There is no doubt about it.You have to have a sense of self-discipline in this path.> Sense of surrender never comes at the outset itself to Devi. It must come necessarily through a Master, a Guru, a Srividya baddha Guru in this marga.> If I have hurt your feelings by my candidness, I apologize for the same. I would rather apologize after correcting some evil I see than condoning it with sweet words.> If you still have a light opinion about deeksha, then only Amba should save you.> I rest my speeding fingers now,> Shreeram Balijepalli> > > > > > > > > _______________> Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Faster_022009> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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