Weekly review of Saktha family group

January 27, 2002

We have had a fairly quiet week. There are no threads of discussion going

on. I request the members to start a discussion on some of the finer

points of Upasana.

I thank Sri.Saravana Kumar for his message on left foot and right foot.

Frankly I did not notice this till I read the post. The question by

Sri.Ashok sundaresan shows shraddha and Bhakthi. I remember the pleasure

I got when I discovered exactly how Khatwangam (a weapon carried by MAA)

looked from a murthi of Saint Padmasambhava in Dharamshala.

I am grateful to Sri. Ramaswamy for providing the information about Japa

Rahasya and japa Samarpana. It is our duty to provide information to the

seekers so that it will help them in their Upasana. The group provided

the information about temples to Sow.Priya so that she could visit the

temples of MAA.

One of the members had written earlier about straying in the direction of

form and losing the essence. In this regard I would like to point out

that there are many paths to the almighty. Advaita marga is only one of

them. Then there is the basic difference between Vaidic and Tantric

margas. I personally would like to emphasize on Bhakthi marga. This is

mainly worship with form. You can proceed from the form to the formless.

But even this is not absolutely necessary. Bagavan Ramakrishna

Paramahamsa who had personally experienced all the paths of all the

religions preferred to remain a Bhaktha. Bagavan Sankaracharya the father

of Advaita also wrote Soundharya Lahari, Annapoornashtakam, Lingashtakam,

and Kalbhairavashtakam etc. So he too was a Bhaktha and did believe in

worship by form. Swami Vivekananda too was a Bhaktha of MAA KAALI and the

book by Sister Nivedita talks about how he reconciled between worship of

MAA and Vedanta.

The ultimate aim could be Mukthi, Moksha, to reach Vaikundam,

Shivaloka, god realisation or self-realisation depending upon your

path.

Most of the teachers and gurus who travel to Western countries for

propagating their thoughts prefer Vedanta as they believe that this is

the most acceptable form of Hinduism. It is also projected that Bhagavath

Gita is the Bible of Hinduism. Many Saivite sects, Sakthas and many

others do not believe so. Bhagavath Gita is the first among equals like

Devi Gita, Avadhootha Gita and other texts. First we say Vedanta is the

essence of Hinduism and then go on to say Vedanta is Universal religion

and not Hinduism. Many Hindu wants to be called secular whatever that

means because it is politically correct. Even Ramakrishna Math talks

about universal religion and not Hinduism. Bhakthi is considered to be

inferior, as it does not stand the test of Logic. But my question is why

should we apply logic to our emotions. Bhakthi is an emotion and comes

from the heart. The popularity or acceptability of Bhakthi is proven by

the popularity of the Hare Krishna movement.

Again we believe Bhakthi is for the common man and not for the

intellectual. I do agree that Metaphysics (the study of the

" ultimate reality " of all things), Ontology (the study of the

real and final nature of " matter " ) and Epistemology (the study

of the interrelation of " mind " and " matter " in the

processes of perception and knowledge) are excellent subjects for

discussion. But these are philosophy and not religion. I believe that

Hindu Philosophy has been misinterpreted as Hindu religion.

The discussion about Bhakthi yoga and Jnana Yoga has been going on for

centuries now with no conclusion. As we accept that all the paths lead to

the same ultimate reality (by whatever name you call it) I believe that

we should each present the case for his/her path so that a seeker will

know about all margas.

I have a special request to all the advanced Sadhakas in our

group. I have been told about the two Kulas of Sakthism. Sri Kula and

Kaali Kula. As I understand Sri Kula considers Maa Thirupurasundari to be

the highest form of Maa and Kaali Kula considers Maa Kaali to be the

highest form of Maa. I belong to the Kaali Kula. But I have never fully

understood the difference in these two approaches. I have had heated

discussions on this with some members here in this group and other clubs.

But I believe my information about this is inadequate to say the least. I

shall be grateful if you will explain this.

Jai MAA KAALI !!!

Sankar Viswanathan

February 3, 2002

Namaste!

The member who wrote about straying in the direction of form and losing the

essence is me. I still stand by what I said.

I cannot agree with your statement that there is a marga called bhakthi

marga. There is no scriptural sanction for bhakthi marga, which is a

post-scriptural coinage made by later interpreters. The Bhagwath Geetha is

categorical in this regard when it states that the paths are " dwividha

proktha " (declared to be two). These two scriptural margas are sanyasa and

karma yoga, the former one for renunciates who decide to live a life of

contemplation and the latter for ordinary grihasthas like us to live with

prasada budhdhi knowing fully well that the lord is the ultimate

result-giver and to contemplate on the vision granted by sruthi.

Like bhakthi marga, the word Hinduism is also a coinage - very recent one at

that made by foreigners for their administrative convenience. When they

looked around, they found Christians, Muslims etc, etc., and a vast ocean of

nameless humanity. They called them Hindus and we got an instant identity

and a religion (like others) too! Right-thinking Indians know only of

sanathanadharma, which includes all vedas and therefore vedanta too.

Vishnavism, Saivism and Tantrism - everything is included here.

I have nothing to do with the so-called seculiarism of some present-day

Indians. It is very unfortunate that you brought such a silly issue to fore

in a very serious discussion.

I accept Bhagavan Sankaracharya and Bhagavan Sri Ramakrishna Parahamsa like

you do, but I don't separate jnaanam and bhakthi as you tend to do. Jnanam

and bhakthi are inter-complementary - the two sides of the same coin and

have no independent existence. To put it more simply, bhakthi is jnaanam

and jnaanam is bhakthi. There is no need to reconcile the two as you claim

Swami Vivekananda did. All these great saints were bhakthas only because

they had jnaanam. A bhakthi without jnaanam would have been unthinkable for

them, because jnaanam is knowing that all creation is you Yourself (with

capital Y) and your love for that Yourself is bhakthi. Here, you are in

love with everything as everything is you. That the only thing one

spontaneously and most naturally loves is oneself is a universal truth.

Read the first chapter of Devi Maahathmya (not Bhagwath Geetha!)for

confirmation of this universal truth. You can find it in the advice given

by the Sage to the King and Vysya.

Mukthi or moksha is not an " aim " , as it is not achieved later. The right

knowledge is that you are already a muktha and the right thing to do is to

live that knowledge right now.

I don't understand why you think that there is no sweetness or emotion in

Advaita. You seem to drive a wedge between logic and emotions. To me

Calculus with all its logic is poetry. It is so to many! And I have a

colleague who says " Statistical Probability " enchants her! To me advaita is

also poetry. Do you know that the word " Geetha " means song? Knowing that I

am everythig is the sweetest bliss ever anyone can imagine. I revel in that

knowledge and I feel rolling on the ground calling out to Maa - the

Consciousness that projects everything. This is bhakthi for me and it does

not matter to me whether I am at Madurai, Kancheepuram, Chamayapuram or in

front of dear Matha Amrithanandamayi Devi. All is the same for I see only

Maa and I have expressed this amply in all my postings.

Your comments therefore were unwarranted with reference to a statement I

made long back. I am not a " dry vedantin " . I do not know if such species

exist at all because, for me, vedanta can never be dry. If they exist, there

should be somethig really wrong with them and that is not my problem, any

way. I love the postings in this group including those we used to receive

from Shyam Wazir (who left), although he used to go off limits often with

his slang, and from Shri Shankaranarayanan who is silent now.

Your message was supposed to be a weekly report and it is strange that you

picked on my comment made several weeks back and based your report entirely

on it!

I am sorry if there are any errors in my typing as I did this in haste in

order not to delay this already belated response.

Pranams!

M.R. NAIR

" sankarrukku " <sankarrukku

Weekly review of Saktha family group

Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:49:04 -0000

We have had a fairly quiet week. There are no threads of discussion

going on. I request the members to start a discussion on some of the

finer points of Upasana.

I thank Sri.Saravana Kumar for his message on left foot and right

foot. Frankly I did not notice this till I read the post. The

question by Sri.Ashok sundaresan shows shraddha and Bhakthi. I

remember the pleasure I got when I discovered exactly how Khatwangam

(a weapon carried by MAA) looked from a murthi of Saint Padmasambhava

in Dharamshala.

I am grateful to Sri. Ramaswamy for providing the information about

Japa Rahasya and japa Samarpana. It is our duty to provide

information to the seekers so that it will help them in their

Upasana. The group provided the information about temples to

Sow.Priya so that she could visit the temples of MAA.

One of the members had written earlier about straying in the

direction of form and losing the essence. In this regard I would like

to point out that there are many paths to the almighty. Advaita marga

is only one of them. Then there is the basic difference between

Vaidic and Tantric margas. I personally would like to emphasize on

Bhakthi marga. This is mainly worship with form. You can proceed from

the form to the formless. But even this is not absolutely necessary.

Bagavan Ramakrishna Paramahamsa who had personally experienced all

the paths of all the religions preferred to remain a Bhaktha. Bagavan

Sankaracharya the father of Advaita also wrote Soundharya Lahari,

Annapoornashtakam, Lingashtakam, and Kalbhairavashtakam etc. So he

too was a Bhaktha and did believe in worship by form. Swami

Vivekananda too was a Bhaktha of MAA KAALI and the book by Sister

Nivedita talks about how he reconciled between worship of MAA and

Vedanta.

The ultimate aim could be Mukthi, Moksha, to reach Vaikundam,

Shivaloka, god realisation or self-realisation depending upon your

path.

Most of the teachers and gurus who travel to Western countries for

propagating their thoughts prefer Vedanta as they believe that this

is the most acceptable form of Hinduism. It is also projected that

Bhagavath Gita is the Bible of Hinduism. Many Saivite sects, Sakthas

and many others do not believe so. Bhagavath Gita is the first among

equals like Devi Gita, Avadhootha Gita and other texts. First we say

Vedanta is the essence of Hinduism and then go on to say Vedanta is

Universal religion and not Hinduism. Many Hindu wants to be called

secular whatever that means because it is politically correct. Even

Ramakrishna Math talks about universal religion and not Hinduism.

Bhakthi is considered to be inferior, as it does not stand the test

of Logic. But my question is why should we apply logic to our

emotions. Bhakthi is an emotion and comes from the heart. The

popularity or acceptability of Bhakthi is proven by the popularity of

the Hare Krishna movement.

Again we believe Bhakthi is for the common man and not for the

intellectual. I do agree that Metaphysics (the study of the " ultimate

reality " of all things), Ontology (the study of the real and final

nature of " matter " ) and Epistemology (the study of the interrelation

of " mind " and " matter " in the processes of perception and knowledge)

are excellent subjects for discussion. But these are philosophy and

not religion. I believe that Hindu Philosophy has been misinterpreted

as Hindu religion.

The discussion about Bhakthi yoga and Jnana Yoga has been going on

for centuries now with no conclusion. As we accept that all the paths

lead to the same ultimate reality (by whatever name you call it) I

believe that we should each present the case for his/her path so that

a seeker will know about all margas.

I have a special request to all the advanced Sadhakas in our group. I

have been told about the two Kulas of Sakthism. Sri Kula and Kaali

Kula. As I understand Sri Kula considers Maa Thirupurasundari to be

the highest form of Maa and Kaali Kula considers Maa Kaali to be the

highest form of Maa. I belong to the Kaali Kula. But I have never

fully understood the difference in these two approaches. I have had

heated discussions on this with some members here in this group and

other clubs. But I believe my information about this is inadequate to

say the least. I shall be grateful if you will explain this.

Jai MAA KAALI !!!

Sankar Viswanathan

_______________

Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

February 3, 2002

Bhakthi

The aim of this group is promote Sakthism through Bhakthi marga. I

had stated this in the group's opening page. I reproduce the message

below.

" We will concentrate on the Bhakthi aspect of worship of MAA, Temples

of MAA around the world, and different kinds of Pooja etc.

The basic principle of this group will be Devotion to MAA as

exemplified by Bagavan Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and enunciated in

the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna. "

Bhakthi Marga is mostly worship with form. That is the reason I was

talking about worship with and without form. Most of our members I

believe are worshippers of MAA with form and rituals. That is why

most of the messages are about temples Deities, Temples and rituals.

Again the basic tenets of this group are Sakthism and Tantra.

As I have stated in one of my earlier messages Hinduism is a

parliament of religions. The religion in this group is Sakthism.

Now you say there is nothing called Bhakthi Marga. I can quote

Bhagavath Geeta about Bhakthi. But I do not expect you to change your

opinion. Since I have started this group to spread Bhakthi for MAA, I

tend to react on any message, which downplays Bhakthi. Bagavan

Ramakrishna Paramahamsa believed in Bhakthi Marga. I am a Bhaktha of

MAA and proud to be so.

I am sorry I do not agree with your view on Jnana and Bakthi.You are

fortunate to be both a Jnana and a Bhaktha. Messages about Jnana

marga are welcome as long as the messages do not downplay Bhakthi

marga. I am sorry that you feel offended by my remarks. But as I said

earlier this is a group for Bhakthas of MAA and the worship mostly

with form. There have been messages from one of our learned members

about Saktha Advaita.This is considered part of Sakthism. It is my

duty as the founder of the group to ensure that we do not stray from

the path of Sakthism.

This group is about worship of MAA and the mode of worship being

mainly Tantric and not Sanatana Dharma.

Sankar Viswanathan

February 4, 2002

My dear sisters and brothers of Saktha Family!

My postings are testimony enough that I am a bhaktha and I believe that

bhakthi becomes complete only with jnana as both are inter-complementary.

If I disagreed with anything, it was with the term " bhakthi marga " as there

is no such marga found mentioned in our scriptures. It is only in later

scriptural interpretations that this term is found. I have not decried or

downplayed bhakthi anywhere at any time. I also need not prove to anyone

how devoted and attached I am to Maa because that also is quite evident from

all my previous postings. As I have both bhakthi and dovotion to Maa, I

believe I have fully complied with the basic principle of this family and,

therefore, am fully qualified to continue as its member. The only area I

lack in is temple information and poojavidhi. I cannot help it as I have

lived the last over 25 years in the Arabian Gulf.

I have nothing against form worship. My pooja place at home is a vast

assembly of goddesses. I don't have the paraphernalia and wherewithal in my

present circumstances to observe the required poojavidhis. However, I offer

Maa the panchopajara morning and evning and payasam (gheer) on auspicious

occasions. All the fruits I bring home find their place first at her Feet.

If there is any mention about bhakthimarga (not bhakthi) in the scriptures

(not in later interpretations), I would like to see the same. That will be

knowledge for me to which I am always open.

I am not offended at all. I am not hurt either. I am only pained.

And lastly, tantrism is part and parcel of sanatanadharma. Separating the

two is misinformation.

The founder of this group has shown me to the door in so many words. May Maa

be with him. I have no intention to leave this gorup because I have enjoyed

the company of all of you. I thank all of you, who have addressed personal

messages to me. We have a lot in common and to share. Should you feel that

you cannot express in a mutually beneficial manner on specific subjects

through this forum due to its limited scope, you are always welcome to write

to me directly at my e-mail IDs given below. But, I would request all of

you not to leave this group for any reason whatsoever like Shyam Wazir and

some others did succumbing to personal hurt.

Pranams to everyone. Time permitting, I will write to each one of you who

wrote to me personally.

Best regards.

Madathil Nair

madathilnair

mnair

" sankarrukku " <sankarrukku

Re: Weekly review of Saktha family group

Sun, 03 Feb 2002 17:44:08 -0000