Doniger on the Kamasutra

[Guest guest]

The Kamasutra: It's Not (Just) What You Think It Is

Beliefnet Interview with Dr. Wendy Doniger

 

[To go with the almost-off-topic Kripal I posted today,

here's an interview with everybody's favorite target,

Wendy Doniger.]

 

Interviewer's introduction:

Wendy Doniger, a professor of religion at the University

of Chicago, has earned a certain scholarly celebrity for

her translations of Indian Sanskrit texts. But she wasn't

prepared for the attention paid to her latest achievement

[2002], a new translation of an ancient Indian text

considered to be the world's oldest sex manual.

 

Doniger's version of the Kamasutra provides a

fascinating peek into third-century Vedic society, but

modern readers will be equally struck by how little the

basic machinations of desire have changed since the

Indian sage Vatsyayana Mallanaga set the verses down

18 centuries ago. We may blink at his Machiavellian

advice ( " how to get money out of a man " ) and distinctly

amoral stance ( " how to commit adultery " ), but we

recognize the issues.

 

With material omitted by earlier translators, the new

version is a welcome update to a classic text. Doniger

talked to Beliefnet about the discoveries she and her co-

translator, Harvard psychoanalyst Sudhir Kakar, made

while working on the text.

 

Q: Your introduction notes that early Western translators

interpreted the Kamasutra-wrongly--as " raising the

search for sexual pleasure to the status of a religious

quest. "

 

There is an aspect of religious sexuality in India. There

are several. There's tantra, for instance, which uses

sexual rituals to produce a burst of psychic energy that

reaches to the gods. That certainly is a use of sexuality

for a religious quest. Even in the Upanishads, there's a

meditation on the sacrificial fire as a woman. You offer

your seed into it as you would offer your seed into a

woman. So there are moments in Indian history where

sexuality has a real role in religion.

In the worship of the god Krishna, the erotic meditation

on union with Krishna, the worshipper imagines himself

(it's often a male worshipper) as a lover in the embrace

of Krishna. So there's a whole context in Hinduism

where sexuality is, in a way, very positively tied up with

religion. You also have the erotic carvings in temples at

Khajuraho and Konarak where eroticism lures you into

the temple, and you find not sex, but God.

 

Q: So how does the Kamasutra fit into this erotic

spirituality?

 

In the Hindu view of life, there are three essential

components: dharma, which I've translated here as

religion, social justice, moral law, that whole world. The

second is arta: power, politics, worldly success. And

then the third is pleasure, which is kama, of which sex is

regarded as one of the most important parts, but not the

only one.

 

So in the broadest sense, Hindu culture acknowledges

erotic pleasure as an essential part of life. More strands

of Hinduism celebrate sexuality than renounce it, and

throughout Hinduism, eroticism is incorporated into

worship of the gods. In that broad sense, Kama is part of

it. But there's really nothing in the Kamasutra itself

about spiritual practice, no tantric rituals where you use

sex to reach god. There's no spiritual goal in the

Kamasutra. It's a human goal, of which spirituality is

one part, and the Kamasutra is another part. They go

together.

 

Q: Some of the most intriguing advice in the Kamasutra

is for women. What does say about the role of women in

Vedic society?

 

It's for women as well as men. I don't think that's been

understood. Women were expected to read the text and

also to teach it to other women.

 

It's not just about men controlling women. In Indian

scholarship, it's been written about as a book about

controlling women by satisfying them. The argument is

that women are insatiable, and that a man has got to

work hard to keep his wife satisfied or she's going to

cheat on him. This is the implicit subtext of the book,

and it's given away in the very beginning, where they

compare the sizes of men and women. The animals that

women are compared to overpower the men--the

elephant woman corresponds to a male horse, and the

woman who's a deer corresponds to the man who's a

hare. So women are bigger, and knowing a lot about

sexual technique helps men control them.

 

Q: You mention that nuns and courtesans were the only

women who could travel about freely.

 

That's right. They are at the top and the bottom of

society. The women in the middle got pinned down and

locked up tight. Nuns and courtesans don't have

families. Husbands, fathers, sons: those are the three

chains that women had in India.

 

It's hard to tell whether the nuns in the Kamasutra are

Buddhist nuns or Hindu renunciates. But the Kamasutra

acknowledges they are part of the world of erotic

freedom. They're useful as messengers and go-betweens.

 

Q: So a nun would set up your tryst?

 

Just like the nurse in " Romeo and Juliet. " Or Friar Tuck

in " Robin Hood. " And for the same reason: Nuns would

be begging or instructing people, so they moved around

and had easy access. They really do function as a

parallel to the courtesans. Their sexuality is quite

different, of course, but their social freedom is the same.

 

Q: The Kamasutra is surprisingly practical: " If a man

wants to go after another man's wife, here's what to do. "

 

Yes. It talks about the signs that someone's interested in

you, how to send signs to someone else that you're

interested in him. There's a great deal about flirtation

and manipulation, how to meet people. One of my

favorite lines is that you can meet people in processions,

religious occasions, and also when a house is on fire. It's

true! On the highway here, you're rubbernecking--

everyone likes to see an accident. People are people, and

they were people in ancient India, too, and everyone ran

to see a house on fire. You might pick up a girl there.

Never mind singles bars--just wait till someone's house

burns down.

 

I love the moment where to get a girl's attention, if

you're all swimming together, the guy swims underwater

to where the girl is, pops up out of the water, touches

her, and then quickly submerges and swims away again.

I remember guys doing that to me in summer camp. It's

obviously an old trick, a way to tease a girl in public that

is permissible, but also a flirtation.

 

It's stuff people still do today. It's like teenagers and

high school. A lot of it is high school maneuvering. And

there's a lot of grown-up stuff. I love the crazy

rationalizations for adultery. The guy says " I'm not

doing it for the sex. Her husband's an important man,

and I'll influence him in this way. "

 

I also love the section where the woman gets rid of a

man without kicking him out, just sort of turns him off.

She doesn't laugh at his jokes, but laughs when he isn't

making a joke.

 

It reminds me in many places of a John Updike novel, or

Chekhov, these sorts of wise observations about how

foolish human beings are, especially when it comes to

sex. Most people don't read the Kamasutra. They just

think it's a book about the sexual positions, a kind of

dirty joke. In fact, there's a very brief section on the

sexual positions in book two, and the rest of the book is

about a lot of other things. They'd be surprised by the

complexity and humor of the sexual psychology in the

book. It's an awfully clever book.

 

Q: It has its serious side too. Ancient commentary on the

text compares sexual drive to compassion for the poor,

to a mother's love for her child.

 

Yes, it's very interesting. There are different kinds of

love, and all of them can get sort of out of control and

can blind you. Part of the argument of the whole book is

control. The section talks about all kinds of love as

being good, creative, but at the same time any one can

get out of control. You can love your country or your

child too much. So it's about controlling desire in the

very broadest sense. Knowing what it is, understanding

it, so it doesn't get out of control, run amok, and ruin

you.

 

Q:How do Hindus think of the Kamasutra today?

 

Since the British Empire ran India for a couple of

centuries, they bred into most educated Hindus a real

embarrassment and shame about the sexual aspects of

their religion. They got the temple dancing girls kicked

out and the whole profession basically destroyed. They

got women to dress differently. They made Hindus

ashamed of the erotic carvings on the temples.

 

Therefore the Kamasutra is regarded as a forbidden

book. My Indian friends say that if you have a copy, it's

basically something you carry around in a brown paper

wrapper. Some contemporary westernized liberal

Hindus will give Kamasutra to people as a wedding

present to show how liberal and emancipated they are.

But most people, no. For instance, in a Vikram Chandra

novella there's a teenage girl talking to one of her uncles

who says " the sisters in school didn't tell us about that,

but our parents had a copy they thought was hidden and

we found it. " The uncle says " now you put that book

back, and don't you read it anymore. " So it's regarded

the way that in the fifties when I was growing up

Playboy, or Lady Chatterly's Lover, would have been.

It's like that.

 

Our translation has been published in India, and it's

gotten pretty good reviews. I'm hoping that the fact that

it's being received as a real book and not a dirty book

might help rehabilitate it. To make it seem like

something India should be proud of, and not ashamed

of.

 

from:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/108/story_10803_1.html

[Guest guest]

>In the Hindu view of life, there are three essential

>components: dharma, which I've translated here as

>religion, social justice, moral law, that whole world. The

>second is arta: power, politics, worldly success. And

>then the third is pleasure, which is kama, of which sex is

>regarded as one of the most important parts, but not the

>only one.

 

Hmm, she left out moksha! also perpetuates the equation of Tantra with sex.

 

Max

 

--

Max Dashu

Suppressed Histories Archives

http://www.suppressedhistories.net

Real Women, Global Vision

[Guest guest]

It's interesting about Doniger;

it's not so much what she *says*:

 

" There is an aspect of religious sexuality in India. There

are several. There's tantra, for instance, which uses

sexual rituals to produce a burst of psychic energy that

reaches to the gods. That certainly is a use of sexuality

for a religious quest. "

 

but that she says it without the obligatory disclaimer(s)

(e.g. " But that's not the only method Tantra uses. "

" practice differs between lineages. "

" Only under the guidance of a qualified guru. " )

In my limited understanding of Tantra, her statement

is reasonably correct, at least for some lineages.

 

She's not necessarily wrong, just maybe politically incorrect.

 

, Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote:

>

> >In the Hindu view of life, there are three essential

> >components: dharma, which I've translated here as

> >religion, social justice, moral law, that whole world. The

> >second is arta: power, politics, worldly success. And

> >then the third is pleasure, which is kama, of which sex is

> >regarded as one of the most important parts, but not the

> >only one.

>

> Hmm, she left out moksha! also perpetuates the equation

> of Tantra with sex.

>

> Max

>

>

[Guest guest]

Not politically incorrect, but inaccurate by omission. She

contributes to the distorted idea of Tantra as _only_ being a sexual

practice. Which is unfortunately rampant.

 

Max

 

> " There is an aspect of religious sexuality in India. There

>are several. There's tantra, for instance, which uses

>sexual rituals to produce a burst of psychic energy that

>reaches to the gods. That certainly is a use of sexuality

>for a religious quest. "

>

>but that she says it without the obligatory disclaimer(s)

>(e.g. " But that's not the only method Tantra uses. "

> " practice differs between lineages. "

> " Only under the guidance of a qualified guru. " )

>In my limited understanding of Tantra, her statement

>is reasonably correct, at least for some lineages.

>

>She's not necessarily wrong, just maybe politically incorrect.

 

--

Max Dashu

Suppressed Histories Archives

http://www.suppressedhistories.net

Real Women, Global Vision

[Guest guest]

That is what I find disturbing -- the misleading omissions on the part

of a formidable scholar who presumably knows better. As with Jeffrey

Kripal and his verbal nail bombs, that kind of foolishness fuels

manifesto-scribbling fundies like Malhotra and damages the cause of

free and open discussion by essentially abusing the privilege.

 

As for Tantra and sex, it cannot be stated often enough:

 

" People in the West [and most in the East, for that matter] have not

seen or been made familiar with all the Tantric practices -- even by

those who have opened parts of it to the West. Thus, the West was

mistakenly led to believe that Tantra is nothing but 'glorified sex'.

This misperception has led many astray, and has kept many really

deserving persons away from the practices. It has also brought many

sexually unsatisfied persons to what they think is 'Tantra'. It has

helped many people to cash in on the 'fad' and the 'need'.

 

" But let me clarify once and for all that TANTRA IS NOT ALL ABOUT SEX.

 

" Real sexual practices may play some role in the first stages -- and

at certain much, much higher stages -- but it is not the be-all and

end-all of Tantra. Because, you must understand, sex in Tantra simply

plays the same role as in ordinary life. We have sex in our life but

sex is not what we live for. It has its role in the psychological and

procreative spheres. In the same way does sex has some role in Tantra.

But it is not an essential thing. "

 

- Sri Bhasurananda Natha

http://www.shaktisadhana.org/Newhomepage/ShaktaTantrism.html

 

 

 

, Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote:

>

> Not politically incorrect, but inaccurate by omission. She

> contributes to the distorted idea of Tantra as _only_ being a sexual

> practice. Which is unfortunately rampant.

>

> Max

>

> > " There is an aspect of religious sexuality in India. There

> >are several. There's tantra, for instance, which uses

> >sexual rituals to produce a burst of psychic energy that

> >reaches to the gods. That certainly is a use of sexuality

> >for a religious quest. "

> >

> >but that she says it without the obligatory disclaimer(s)

> >(e.g. " But that's not the only method Tantra uses. "

> > " practice differs between lineages. "

> > " Only under the guidance of a qualified guru. " )

> >In my limited understanding of Tantra, her statement

> >is reasonably correct, at least for some lineages.

> >

> >She's not necessarily wrong, just maybe politically incorrect.

>

> --

> Max Dashu

> Suppressed Histories Archives

> http://www.suppressedhistories.net

> Real Women, Global Vision

>