Fwd: [tuning] Magic[22] as srutis

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hstraub64 <hstraub64

Aug 10, 2007 7:48 AM

[tuning] Re: Magic[22] as srutis

tuning

 

From time to time, I am combing the archives searching for stuff to

put into our xenharmonic Wiki. I am currently thinking the posting

below would be a good one.

The point why I am posting here is that I am no expert in shruti

theory so I cannot really judge the relevance of the article. So I

would like to ask here: Are there objections against putting this into

the xenharmonic wiki, in the context of indian music theory?

 

Hans Straub

 

tuning <tuning%40>, " Gene Ward Smith "

<gwsmith wrote:

>

> What srutis are seems to be fairly flexible. However, reasonably

> authentic conditions to impose are the following:

>

> (1) It should contain the Sa-grama, 9/8-5/4-4/3-3/2-27/16-15/8-2

>

> (2) It should give the major whole tone, 9/8, four srutis, 10/9

> three srutis, and 16/15 two srutis, hence giving the octave 22

> srutis.

>

> (3) 9/8, 10/9 and 16/15 are each always of the same size, and

> distinguished, with 9/8>10/9>16/15.

>

> Many scales fulfill these conditions, and one of the most

> interesting, I think, is Magic[22], the 22-note MOS of the magic

> temperament. Using the generator of 13 steps of 41-et, if we take

> the strutis for 10/9 to always be 222, and the srutis for 16/15 to

> always be 22, we are left to give three steps of size 2, and one of

> size 1, for the srutis given to 9/8. If we vary the pattern of doing

> this we can get Magic[22]:

>

>

1-(2212)-9/8-(222)-5/4-(22)-4/3-(1222)-3/2-(2221)-27/16-(222)-15/8-(22)-2

>

> Here the numbers in parethesis are the scale step patters between

> one note of Sa-grama and the next.

>

 

 

 

 

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ma1973 <marcsavage73

Aug 13, 2007 11:18 AM

[tuning] Re: Magic[22] as srutis

tuning

 

 

 

> The conclusion are the same.

 

I don't think so. Certainly there is a distinction between intervals

derived solely from the 3rd harmonic and those derived from both the

3rd and 5th harmonics. That's the distinction we've been discussing.

 

> India got their tuning from !4th century Persian theory. From the

mouth of a master BTW, Amiya Dusgupta.

 

Even if this is true it does not apply to the tunings used in Indian

music today, which are derived from the drone. Have you studied with

a master of Indian vocal music? They will invariably teach you to

find the notes in the drone -- to tune your voice to the harmonics

you hear in the drone -- to actually merge your voice in the drone.

In real practice, this is where the notes come from.

 

> The first shows Indian tuning in terms of the Pythagorean

> series. The second with it schismatic equivalents. Not all of India

> does things the same way. They call it a subcontinent for a reason.

 

These two approaches to identifying intervals are different, and

thus they're not talking about the same tunings. I have previously

stated my arguments for " the second " being the more accurate

representation of the intevals used in North Indian music today.

 

Perhaps I should have made it clearer that I have been talking about

North Indian classical music all along. The South Indian Carnatic

melakarta system is different. Though the book by P. SAMBMOORTHY

is ostensibly about South Indian Music, he also discusses the tunings

used in North Indian " Hindustani " music.

 

I admit I was too hasty in making a slight criticism of Sambmoorthy's

work. Looking at it further I think it is quite good. Kolinski's

work is indeed trash however.

 

> The drone came later in Indian music.

 

All my comments have been about the system of tuning used in North

Indian classical music. I don't have too many recordings in my

collection made a couple thousand years ago, nor even a couple

hundred! (Recording technology seems to have been somewhat lacking

in those days!) And the ancient Indian texts are, generously

speaking, less than precise on the tuning issue.

 

If it is the case that " the drone came later " than the tuning theory

you wish to discuss, then it is also probably fair to say that none

of the speculated derivations of ancient tunings have even the

slightest relevance to the tunings used today. If it is true that

some contrived pythagorean tunings system was used in India PRE-

DRONE, then the advent of the drone would have overthrown the old

tuning system completely and supplanted it with a tuning system based

on the audible harmonics within the drone, which is what is used

today.

 

So in talking about tunings used in North Indian classical music

today (the topic of my disccusion) and tunings that MAY (or may not,

no recordings to check!) have once anciently been used, we're talking

about " apples and oranges " .

 

> But there is a big variety about the theoretical tunings and the

practice.

 

This is true, and is an area I've avoided getting into in my

discussion. Even today the actual practice may vary significantly

from any coherent theory. One huge limitation in our discussion (and

in the theory) is that the essential technique of evoking and

sustaining the " rasa " of a given raga involves the use of all the

pitches " between the notes " . The pitch areas between the notes

comprise much of the actual Indian music heard in performance. The

svaras (notes) are the nodal points -- the points of maximum

resonance -- that demarcate the broader pitch areas. In a full

performance of any raga it is almost certain that all points on the

entire pitch spectrum within an octave are sounded at some point or

other in the performance.

 

> erotic ragas where you find the 7th harmonic

> used for instance.

 

The 7th harmonic doesn't figure in theory, nor in common practice,

but certainly may appear in the performances of some artists who

probably have no idea they they're singing notes derived from the

seventh harmonic. I don't know of any raga that uses these tones as

principal notes consistently however. The singer is permitted a

great deal of freedom to use whatever tones they feel invoke the

spirit of the raga, though if they get too idiosyncratic with this,

other artists may feel that they have moved outside the scope of the

raga.

 

> Much of India has been only using 17 of the 22 for a

> while, according to this one master.

 

I think this is true, though I haven't pinned it down to precisely

17. It does seem like the full range of shrutis is rarely used, but

of course no one is suggesting that all the shrutis are used in any

one performance in any case. The notion is that the full array of

shrutis constitute the fundamental pitch palette of the entire art

form, not a single performance.

 

If those of you interested in discussing this topic are primarily

interested in what you believe might be the ancient origins of scales

once used in India but which are no longer in use (perhaps since the

advent of the drone?), then the discussion has moved outside the area

of my knowledge and interest. I joined the discussion to provide

some information and insights about the shrutis as used in North

Indian classical music today, and at least since the age of

recording, and probably for at least some time before.

 

Because there are no recordings of the ancient music, you can

speculate to your heart's content about what pitches they may have

been using in actual practice, but you can never prove your points

nor can anyone disprove them. At best you can argue about what you

think the ancient (rather enigmatic) texts are saying.

 

But if you want to understand the practice of Indian music today, I

think you will have to confine yourself to considering the singable

tones. Pitches derived theoretically from long strings of compounded

ratios are neither audible nor singable within the soundscape of the

sa-pa drone of the tamboura and are thus outside the scope of Indian

music in practice.

 

I think this discussion has had some value up to this point, but if

it is going to degenerate into unprovable speculations about what

tunings were used by ancient Indian musicians in their practice, I am

no longer interested.

 

However, if anyone has anything of substance to add

about the use of tunings in North Indian raga today, that would be

interesting. For example, can you give me an example of any

recordings by any acknowledged master who uses pitches derived from

the seventh harmonic as a regular part of his or her musical

vocabulary? Now that would be interesting!

 

 

 

 

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