Self and Identification

[Guest guest]

Experience nearly always forms a hardened center in the mind, as the

self, which is a deteriorating factor. Most of us are seeking

experience. We may be tired of the worldly experiences of fame,

notoriety, wealth, sex and so on, but we all want greater, wider

experience of somekind. We think the pursuit of experience is the

right way of life in order to attain greater vision.

 

Does this search for experience, which is really a demand for

greater, fuller sensation, lead to reality? or is it a factor

cripples the mind? Through it all, the fundamental desire is for

greater sensation - to have the sensation of pleasure extended, made

high and permanent, as opposed to the suffering, the dullness, the

routine and loneliness of our daily lives....

 

So the mind is ever seeking experience, and that experience hardens

into a center, and from this center we act. We live and have our

being in this center, in this accumulated, hardened experience of

the past. And is it possible to live without forming this center of

experience and sensation? Because it seems to me that life wil lthen

have a significance quite different from that which we now give it.

At present we are all concerned, are we not, with the extension of

the center, recruiting greater and wider experience which ever

strengthenes the Self, and I think this invariable limits the mind.

 

So, is it possible to live in this world without forming the center?

 

 

 

Reflection of the Self

J.Krishnamurti

[Guest guest]

As an alternative to J Krishnamurthy, I recommend you read

the Ashtavakra Gita.

 

Ananda Moyi Ma cautioned him against, what she called

" pseudo-intellectual " tendencies, and exhorted him dedicate

his energies to spiritual practice.

 

The Upanishads are very clear about the pitfalls of excess

intellect and the ego; they need to be contained, if there is to

be any hope of Moksha.

 

Love and Peace,

Charles

 

NMadasamy <nmadasamy wrote:

Experience nearly always forms a hardened center in the mind, as the

self, which is a deteriorating factor. Most of us are seeking

experience. We may be tired of the worldly experiences of fame,

notoriety, wealth, sex and so on, but we all want greater, wider

experience of somekind. We think the pursuit of experience is the

right way of life in order to attain greater vision.

 

Does this search for experience, which is really a demand for

greater, fuller sensation, lead to reality? or is it a factor

cripples the mind? Through it all, the fundamental desire is for

greater sensation - to have the sensation of pleasure extended, made

high and permanent, as opposed to the suffering, the dullness, the

routine and loneliness of our daily lives....

 

So the mind is ever seeking experience, and that experience hardens

into a center, and from this center we act. We live and have our

being in this center, in this accumulated, hardened experience of

the past. And is it possible to live without forming this center of

experience and sensation? Because it seems to me that life wil lthen

have a significance quite different from that which we now give it.

At present we are all concerned, are we not, with the extension of

the center, recruiting greater and wider experience which ever

strengthenes the Self, and I think this invariable limits the mind.

 

So, is it possible to live in this world without forming the center?

 

 

 

Reflection of the Self

J.Krishnamurti

[Guest guest]

, CSaba <cr_saba wrote:

>

> As an alternative to J Krishnamurthy, I recommend you read the

Ashtavakra Gita.

 

 

Thank you for this, I will definitely read on this.

 

>

> Ananda Moyi Ma cautioned him against, what she called

> " pseudo-intellectual " tendencies, and exhorted him dedicate

> his energies to spiritual practice.

>

 

Interesting to know that Ananda Moyi Ma called J Krishnamurty as

having " pseudo-intellectual " tendencies. I wondered why, but I know

know of J Krishnamurty opinion of self style Gurus. Oh! yes I read

about her meetings with him. Interesting exchange there was. You all

must read it. Its in Pupul Jayakar, " Krishnamurti " , p. 144.

 

 

The Upanishads are very clear about the pitfalls of excess

> intellect and the ego; they need to be contained, if there is to

> be any hope of Moksha.

>

 

 

I remembered one of our member kartik gaurav remarked : Intellectual

discernment is true vairAgya from the inside, this is what Shri

Krishna taught as true sannyAsa to Arjuna….. Debate and intellectual

discussion is the high point of vedantic society as proclaimed by

Shri Adi Shankara.

 

Now this is from Swami Siviananda :What is Vichara?

 

Atma-vichara (enquiry into the nature of atma or self) and yogic

practices done without intense vairagya becomes fruitless.

 

Isnt this the same issues J. Krishnamurthy been talking about.

Questioning and The Awareness of the Self? Isnt this being

spiritual?

 

I wonder how come excess intellect is an obstacle to Moksa? But what

is Moksa? Let see the Wikipedia definition of Moksha.

 

Moksha is seen as a final release from one's worldly conception of

self, the loosening of the shackle of experiential duality and a re-

establishment in one's own fundamental nature, though the nature is

seen as ineffable and beyond sensation. These two Hindu concepts of

Moksha - personal and impersonal - are seen differently depending on

one's beliefs.

 

And my most favourite question : Does our spiritual journey end with

moksha?

[Guest guest]

So, is it possible to live in this world without forming the center?

>

>

>

> Reflection of the Self

> J.Krishnamurti

 

Oh, Nora, I thought those were your words and I was going to answer, but

alas, Krishnamurti has answered his own question - finally.

[Guest guest]

True Self-Inquiry will eventually lead you to remain fixed

in Awareness. At this point intellect on gets in the way.

 

No doubt the intellect is needed !

 

But when it is emphasized at the expense of intuitional awareness

of your primordial nature(Atman), it becomes a hindrance to Moksha

or final release.

 

The reason being, there is a sheath (among others) that covers the

Atman which is responsible for the intellect. If you don't give it a rest,

it will keep the Atman under a tight grip.

 

How do you know when the intellect is excessive ?

 

Its like sleep or hunger, only you know.

 

 

NMadasamy <nmadasamy wrote:

, CSaba wrote:

>

> As an alternative to J Krishnamurthy, I recommend you read the

Ashtavakra Gita.

 

 

Thank you for this, I will definitely read on this.

 

>

> Ananda Moyi Ma cautioned him against, what she called

> " pseudo-intellectual " tendencies, and exhorted him dedicate

> his energies to spiritual practice.

>

 

Interesting to know that Ananda Moyi Ma called J Krishnamurty as

having " pseudo-intellectual " tendencies. I wondered why, but I know

know of J Krishnamurty opinion of self style Gurus. Oh! yes I read

about her meetings with him. Interesting exchange there was. You all

must read it. Its in Pupul Jayakar, " Krishnamurti " , p. 144.

 

 

The Upanishads are very clear about the pitfalls of excess

> intellect and the ego; they need to be contained, if there is to

> be any hope of Moksha.

>

 

 

I remembered one of our member kartik gaurav remarked : Intellectual

discernment is true vairAgya from the inside, this is what Shri

Krishna taught as true sannyAsa to Arjuna….. Debate and intellectual

discussion is the high point of vedantic society as proclaimed by

Shri Adi Shankara.

 

Now this is from Swami Siviananda :What is Vichara?

 

Atma-vichara (enquiry into the nature of atma or self) and yogic

practices done without intense vairagya becomes fruitless.

 

Isnt this the same issues J. Krishnamurthy been talking about.

Questioning and The Awareness of the Self? Isnt this being

spiritual?

 

I wonder how come excess intellect is an obstacle to Moksa? But what

is Moksa? Let see the Wikipedia definition of Moksha.

 

Moksha is seen as a final release from one's worldly conception of

self, the loosening of the shackle of experiential duality and a re-

establishment in one's own fundamental nature, though the nature is

seen as ineffable and beyond sensation. These two Hindu concepts of

Moksha - personal and impersonal - are seen differently depending on

one's beliefs.

 

And my most favourite question : Does our spiritual journey end with

moksha?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you CSaba

 

You wrote : True Self-Inquiry will eventually lead you to remain

fixed in Awareness. At this point intellect on gets in the way. No

doubt the intellect is needed !

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi thinks otherwise. He recommended a technique he

called self-enquiry, a spiritual practice which would eventually

leads to self awareness. But not many will be able to undertake this

path. Only when your mind is pure, you will be able to grasp.

 

But I like to bring back to the first message I posted awhile back :

Experience nearly always forms a hardened center in the mind, as the

self, which is a deteriorating factor. Most of us are seeking

experience. We may be tired of the worldly experiences of fame,

notoriety, wealth, sex and so on, but we all want greater, wider

experience of somekind. We think the pursuit of experience is the

right way of life in order to attain greater vision.

 

Does this search for experience, which is really a demand for

greater, fuller sensation, lead to reality? or is it a factor

cripples the mind? Through it all, the fundamental desire is for

greater sensation - to have the sensation of pleasure extended, made

high and permanent, as opposed to the suffering, the dullness, the

routine and loneliness of our daily lives....

 

So the mind is ever seeking experience, and that experience hardens

into a center, and from this center we act. We live and have our

being in this center, in this accumulated, hardened experience of

the past. And is it possible to live without forming this center of

experience and sensation? At present we are all concerned, are we

not, with the extension of the center, recruiting greater and wider

experience which ever strengthenes the Self, and I think this

invariable limits the mind.

 

So, is it possible to live in this world without forming the center?

 

 

Now why this remark made by J.Krishnamurthy got my attention because

I'm trying to understand another that I've read :

 

" In our tradition you are not asked to accept anything as

authoritive unless you experience it "

 

Thoughts of a Shakta by Yogishananda Nath [sri Nilakantha Mahadeva

Joshi] translated by M.P.Pandit.

 

My guru remarked " this is the essence of our spiritual practice " .

 

So should we embarked on this search for experience then? Does this

search for experience, lead to reality? or is it a factor cripples

the mind?

[Guest guest]

Yes, Ramana Maharshi is right, I'm not saying differently.

 

By inquiring 'Who am I' you will eventually be led to

Awareness(of Self/Atman).

 

But once your there, you longer need to perform Self-Inquiry

" Who am I " , because at that point you rest in your

Primordial Awareness and Bliss, and the mind, does not

exist(in the way it was before). Instead of perceiving

bondage, samsara, maya and division, you now perceive

eternal satchitananada, and the Unity in all things.

 

No matter what path you use, be it pranayama, meditation,

mantras, devotion, self-inquiry, that will be the final result.

 

Having crossed the river you no longer need the boat.

 

You are correct in saying that the mind is always seeking

experience. There is no doubt about. No one can escape

having a center formed in the mind.

 

If you are worldly, your mind increasingly seeks external experiences,

if you are spiritual, the mind will also seek increasingly

experiences also, but on a spiritual level; but this last one is OK

because it is sattvic, and the more the mind dwells on Bliss,

Inner Peace, Anand, etc..., the more this center will get us to

eventual release in moksha.

 

However, it is no use to burden ourselves by brooding about

the fact that the mind is seeking experiences, as it is inevitable;

and it takes time for the mind to be serene, and rest in ones

center of tranquility and calmness, as a result of our spiritual

practice(pranayama, concentration, meditation, mantras).

 

So what to do in the meantime ?

 

Perform your spiritual practice to the best of your ability, and

continuously try in all situations to: let go, relax, keep cool, calm

and serene, keep the mind clear, and abide in your awareness

and inner peace, as much as it is possible to do so; and enjoy life

in a wholesome way without becoming unduly attached.

 

Gradually, as we progress spiritually, the different layers of the mind

are uncovered, and even before moksha itself occurs, one will attain a state

where the body and mind will not torment us as it generally does, but rather,

it will be transparent and clear, allowing higher realities and dimensions

to manifest.

 

The difference between true self-inquiry and pseudo-intellectualism,

is that true self-inquiry will dissolve thoughts, and lead you to pure

awareness of your Self. Pseudo-intellectualism will bog you, your

mind and thoughts down in an endless quagmire of thoughts.

 

There is nothing wrong in intellectual prowess, it is actually needed,

but we must not confuse that with Self-Inquiry.

 

If you notice, in Ramana's Self-Inquiry, you continuously ask your self

the same question, ALL the time(Who Am I ?); This produces ekagrata

or concentration of mind, which leads to the dissolving of thoughts, and

then Awareness for your Self. you don't spin off your thoughts to a million

other thoughts, as this will dilute your ekagrata.

 

You can be very intellectual, but that does mean that you are spiritual.

And there have been many saints, who intellectually amounted to nothing,

yet attained moksha. The ideal combination is to BE spiritual and from that

center utilize all our faculties in this spiritualized state.

 

An intellectual who is spiritual, hits the mark immediately and accurately,

on any topic; instead of an endless lethany of explanations, (perhaps like I'm

doing)...

:----).

 

Love and Peace,

Charles

 

 

NMadasamy <nmadasamy wrote:

Thank you CSaba

 

You wrote : True Self-Inquiry will eventually lead you to remain

fixed in Awareness. At this point intellect on gets in the way. No

doubt the intellect is needed !

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi thinks otherwise. He recommended a technique he

called self-enquiry, a spiritual practice which would eventually

leads to self awareness. But not many will be able to undertake this

path. Only when your mind is pure, you will be able to grasp.

 

But I like to bring back to the first message I posted awhile back :

Experience nearly always forms a hardened center in the mind, as the

self, which is a deteriorating factor. Most of us are seeking

experience. We may be tired of the worldly experiences of fame,

notoriety, wealth, sex and so on, but we all want greater, wider

experience of somekind. We think the pursuit of experience is the

right way of life in order to attain greater vision.

 

Does this search for experience, which is really a demand for

greater, fuller sensation, lead to reality? or is it a factor

cripples the mind? Through it all, the fundamental desire is for

greater sensation - to have the sensation of pleasure extended, made

high and permanent, as opposed to the suffering, the dullness, the

routine and loneliness of our daily lives....

 

So the mind is ever seeking experience, and that experience hardens

into a center, and from this center we act. We live and have our

being in this center, in this accumulated, hardened experience of

the past. And is it possible to live without forming this center of

experience and sensation? At present we are all concerned, are we

not, with the extension of the center, recruiting greater and wider

experience which ever strengthenes the Self, and I think this

invariable limits the mind.

 

So, is it possible to live in this world without forming the center?

 

 

Now why this remark made by J.Krishnamurthy got my attention because

I'm trying to understand another that I've read :

 

" In our tradition you are not asked to accept anything as

authoritive unless you experience it "

 

Thoughts of a Shakta by Yogishananda Nath [sri Nilakantha Mahadeva

Joshi] translated by M.P.Pandit.

 

My guru remarked " this is the essence of our spiritual practice " .

 

So should we embarked on this search for experience then? Does this

search for experience, lead to reality? or is it a factor cripples

the mind?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Interesting thoughts, Nora. Thank you for raising this.

 

Maybe there is a difference between the quest for sensation, or for

ego-gratification, and the quest for wisdom, to experience of the

full Adi Shakti vastness that mind is ordinarily cut off from. That

which having been known (experienced) nothing more need be known.

 

The Tibetans talk about consciousness as radiance, which is an

interesting slant. It seems to be the nature of this radiance to seek

its source. Even all the questing after experience is part of that

Whole. We just haven't gotten to the real center (not the hardened

individual-mind-small-self) where all the divisions dissolve ...

 

Max

 

>Experience nearly always forms a hardened center in the mind, as the

>self, which is a deteriorating factor. Most of us are seeking

>experience. We may be tired of the worldly experiences of fame,

>notoriety, wealth, sex and so on, but we all want greater, wider

>experience of somekind. We think the pursuit of experience is the

>right way of life in order to attain greater vision.

>

>Does this search for experience, which is really a demand for

>greater, fuller sensation, lead to reality? or is it a factor

>cripples the mind? Through it all, the fundamental desire is for

>greater sensation - to have the sensation of pleasure extended, made

>high and permanent, as opposed to the suffering, the dullness, the

>routine and loneliness of our daily lives....

>

>So the mind is ever seeking experience, and that experience hardens

>into a center, and from this center we act. We live and have our

>being in this center, in this accumulated, hardened experience of

>the past. And is it possible to live without forming this center of

>experience and sensation? At present we are all concerned, are we

>not, with the extension of the center, recruiting greater and wider

>experience which ever strengthenes the Self, and I think this

>invariable limits the mind.

>

>So, is it possible to live in this world without forming the center?

>

>Now why this remark made by J.Krishnamurthy got my attention because

>I'm trying to understand another that I've read :

>

> " In our tradition you are not asked to accept anything as

>authoritive unless you experience it "

>

>Thoughts of a Shakta by Yogishananda Nath [sri Nilakantha Mahadeva

>Joshi] translated by M.P.Pandit.

>

>My guru remarked " this is the essence of our spiritual practice " .

>

>So should we embarked on this search for experience then? Does this

>search for experience, lead to reality? or is it a factor cripples

>the mind?

>

>

 

 

--

Max Dashu

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