Not So Secret:: Plundering Eastern religions for profit

[Guest guest]

Not So Secret

Plundering Eastern religions for enlightenment and

profit

 

By Sylvia Fraser

From The Walrus

December 2007

 

In the winter of 1999, I was playing in the surf at Kovalam

Beach on the southwest coast of India when a riptide swept

me out into the Arabian Sea. The harder I swam against the

current, the more surely the shore receded. As the futility of

my struggles sank in, I felt the slap of something abrasive

against my leg - a rope! Wrapping my hands around it, I

rapidly pulled myself handhold by handhold toward shore,

aided by a strong tug from the other end. Just as crashing

waves broke my grip, my toes scraped sand.

 

Where had the rope come from? Was it part of a fishing net

locals in the adjoining cove sometimes floated out to sea? If

so, what to make of the anomalies? The moment I realized

how desperately I needed help, it slapped my leg. Though I

could see no fishermen in either cove, the rope pulled me

directly to shore. It consistently remained at a convenient

level despite changes in water depth - any lower and I

wouldn't have been able to reach it, any higher and I

wouldn't have had full use of my arms. When I didn't need

it any longer, it disappeared. Had I hallucinated the rope,

allowing me to tap energy reserves I didn't know I

possessed? Certainly it felt real enough - fibrous, taut, and

always in motion.

 

The fortuitous appearance of a lifeline in the middle of the

ocean seems to validate the premise of the blockbuster The

Secret: desire anything fervently enough, and you will get it.

The power of thought trumps material cause and effect. Ask,

believe, receive.

 

That simple message - repeated over 184 pages by two

dozen of the world's most persuasive motivational coaches

and stitched together by Australian TV producer Rhonda

Byrne - resulted in first-year English language book sales

of 1.75 million, along with 1.5 million dvds and spinoff

seminars. And most of that was before Oprah Winfrey's

ecstatic endorsement. Simon & Schuster currently has 5

million copies in print, and the book is being translated into

thirty languages. Predictably, its popularity, based on wish

fulfillment and marketing wizardry, has boosted the sales of

a multitude of similar offerings: The Intention Experiment:

Using Your Thoughts to Change Your Life and the World,

by Lynne McTaggart; Law of Attraction: The Science of

Attracting More of What You Want and Less of What You

Don't, by Michael Losier; and Ask and It Is Given:

Learning to Manifest Your Desires, by Esther and Jerry

Hicks. Read enough of these titles, and you won't have to

buy the books.

 

The Secret owes its triumph to the convergence of two

powerful forces: Western publishing's self-help genre and

Eastern philosophy's 3,000-year karmic tradition. Like The

Secret, the laws of karma, fundamental to both Buddhism

and Hinduism, proclaim that the universe is a place within

which we create our own possibilities and limitations. Both

endorse a form of the law of attraction: positive thoughts

and deeds produce positive responses, while fear, hostility,

and negativity become self-fulfilling prophesies. Both

declare these intangible laws are as absolute as the laws of

physics.

 

Where karma and The Secret dramatically diverge is in

values. Despite trumpeting invisible power, The Secret

dazzles its followers with the promise of instant gratification

in the material world: more money, more sex, and more

status, all in the time frame of now. By contrast, karmic

questers are engaged in a soul journey through many

incarnations in search of enlightenment and inner peace.

Commitment to that journey is the point of each incarnation,

with misfortunes accepted as the result of past

transgressions or as an opportunity to learn. While the

extremes of poverty and self-denial are not considered

virtues in and of themselves, desires are treated as

distractions. Instead of wanting more of everything, the

quester is urged, " Have no expectations and happiness will

always be one hundred per cent. "

 

Though The Secret, like karmic law, encourages its

followers to cultivate gratitude and generosity, its basic

appeal is as a " gimme " handbook arousing a shallow desire

for easy rewards on demand. All its contributors were

world-class hawkers before Byrne conscripted them: Jack

Canfield, co-owner of the Chicken Soup for the Soul

franchise; Bob Doyle, creator of the multimedia Wealth

Beyond Reason program; James Arthur Ray, developer of

the Science of Success and Harmonic Wealth. Their

collective prosperity and mutual admiration are the book's

chief selling points.

 

From an Eastern perspective, The Secret is a rip-off of

thousands of years of freely offered wisdom. Its

commercialization parallels that of yoga: the exportation

from the land of the sacred cow to that of the cash cow.

" Yoga " is derived from a Sanskrit word meaning " union, "

and is an activity intended to join body, mind, and spirit

using techniques that require a lifetime to perfect. In the

West, it's now more often a recreational add-on for the

display of cute butts in overpriced yoga toggery. In the

documentary Yoga, Inc., director John Philp estimates this

ancient discipline has become an $18-billion industry,

comparable to Coca-Cola and McDonald's.

 

Among self-help trailblazers, one of The Secret's early

forerunners was The Power of Positive Thinking, by

Norman Vincent Peale. Published in 1952, it sold 15 million

hardcover copies in its first three decades and is still being

reprinted. As its chapter titles suggest, Positive Thinking

teaches what The Secret calls the law of attraction as the key

to worldly success: " Expect the Best and Get It, " " How to

Create Your Own Happiness. " Like Eastern philosophy, it's

spiritually inspired, but where karma bases itself on

universal law, Positive Thinking looks to God through Jesus

Christ: " Try Prayer Power, " " How to Use Faith in Healing. "

 

It was during the 1960s and '70s that the self-help genre hit

its stride, spearheaded by a new breed of therapist eager to

reject the authority of both God and Freud. Convinced by

their own clinical findings that classical psychoanalysis

didn't work, these renegades defied professional orthodoxy

by appealing directly to the life experience of the intelligent

reader with popularly written, groundbreaking texts.

 

After psychiatrist Eric Berne was rejected by the San

Francisco Psychoanalytic Institute, he introduced a

technique he called " transactional analysis " to a lay

audience in Games People Play: The Psychology of Human

Relationships (1964). Suddenly, ordinary people were

analyzing their everyday exchanges according to whether

they were " transacting " from an adult state (rational,

objective), parent state (authoritative, supportive,

judgmental), or child state (needy, emotional, creative. Like

psychoanalysis, TA was insight therapy, but grounded in the

here and now, not in early toilet training.

 

At a time when medical science had severed the mind from

the body, psychotherapist Alexander Lowen wrote such

books as The Betrayal of the Body (1967), in which he

claimed that physical symptoms were often the

manifestation of psychological problems, which could be

cured through body manipulations designed to produce

emotional release. He called his therapy " bioenergetics, "

based on the work of Wilhelm Reich, who had been

expelled by Freud from the International Psychoanalytic

Association three decades earlier. Psychotherapist Arthur

Janov also believed neuroses, along with their physical

manifestations, were caused by emotional repression. In The

Primal Scream (1970), he advocated release through the

reliving in therapy of those traumatic childhood scenes that

caused the emotional shutdown.

 

To understand the dynamism of these self-help books, it's

necessary to examine the times they addressed. North

America, post-World War II, was an ultraconservative,

authority-based culture in which middle-class males were

expected to struggle up the corporate ladder while their stay-

at-home wives tended their children in their suburban ranch

houses. Just as William H. Whyte, author of The

Organization Man (1956), and Betty Friedan, author of The

Feminine Mystique (1963), exposed the collective

frustrations hidden under the smiling surface of North

American life, Berne, Lowen, and Janov challenged

individuals to look inward for empowerment, rather than

upward or outward, spearheading what became known as

the Human Potential Movement.

 

The 1972 surprise bestseller Roots of Coincidence, in which

Arthur Koestler explored one of Carl Jung's more intriguing

theories, opened the window to a type of " magical " thinking

quite out of keeping with the times. A quirky and original

thinker, Jung had broken with Freud when his mentor's

views proved too restrictive for his own protean mind.

Though Jung didn't teach the law of attraction, he came

close with his theory of synchronicity. This he defined as

meaningful coincidences that cluster around emotionally

charged events, often becoming predictors of the future, as

if a person's consciousness were able to influence the

material world in defiance of the physics of cause and

effect.

 

For example, in the spring of 1978 I was being driven to a

party in Mississauga by a filmmaker and his wife, whom I

had just met. Also present in the car was a healer from New

Delhi, whom they'd imported to minister to a friend who

was dying of cancer. The very next day, I received a Bell

Canada bill charging me for a phone call to New Delhi,

which I most certainly hadn't made. An absurd thought

struck me: I'll bet this is the call the filmmaker made to

invite the healer! When I looked up the filmmaker's phone

number, I found it was the same as mine except for the last

digit - a zero instead of a nine. Further investigation

confirmed that the call on my bill was the one the filmmaker

had made to arrange the healer's visit. Given the

populations of New Delhi and Toronto, what were the odds

that computerized equipment would reconnect four people

who'd shared a car the night before? Even more intriguing,

if this were an example of synchronicity, what did it mean?

 

Though I barely knew the dying woman, I was a close

friend of her husband's first wife. Again by coincidence, the

summoning call had been made to the Canadian

ambassador's New Delhi residence, where the first wife was

a guest, and she was the one who answered the phone and

delivered the message to the healer. As the result of an

explosive love triangle twenty years previous, the husband

and his two wives were still locked in acrimony. Though I

wasn't yet aware of it, for a brief period before the second

wife's death I would function as a go-between for the three

feuding parties. Metaphorically, I would become their

switchboard; therefore, according to a Jungian

interpretation, the short-circuiting of the bill through me by

Bell Canada was an " acausal " event that brought into

consciousness a connection already present in the

unconscious and that would be played out in the future. The

synchronicities were generated by the members of the

triangle who were undergoing a dynamic psychological shift

because of the fatal illness of one of them, drawing me in as

an incidental player. In Jung's view, to ascribe such a

happening to mere chance would violate its most striking

feature - its meaning.

 

During the 1980s and '90s, " self-help " morphed into

something more aptly described as " help-yourself-to. "

Instead of self-improvement through inner quest, the new

theme was entitlement, with books by money men as the hot

sellers. Not surprisingly, this was when some Secret

contributors, such as Lee Brower, founder of the consulting

firm Empowered Wealth, and Bob Proctor, author of You

Were Born Rich, laid the foundations of empire. A high

school dropout from northern Ontario, Proctor considered

himself a loser until age twenty-six, when he took an office

cleaning business from startup to international in one year.

 

About that same time, heavenly assistance came back into

vogue - not Norman Vincent Peale's one-God-fits-all, but

designer angels offering specialized services. According to

Publishers Weekly, at one time during 1993 five of the ten

bestselling paperbacks were about angels, and in a Time

magazine poll, 69 percent of American adults said they

believed in them. In a return to basics, spiritualist Neale

Donald Walsch, a contributor to The Secret, began his

Conversations with God series in 1996, breaking previous

bestseller records. Another contributor, Jack Canfield,

proved himself capable of gripping both sides of the literary

wishbone when he followed up his success primer, The

Aladdin Factor: How to Ask For and Get Everything You

Want, with the 1993 launch of his soul food franchise. Each

of the hundred-odd titles dishes up feel-good anecdotes to

ever more specific audiences: Chicken Soup for the Pet

Lover's Soul, Chicken Soup for the Golfer's Soul, Chicken

Soup for the Prisoner's Soul.

 

In The Secret, Rhonda Byrne condenses a half-century of

self-help promises into one slim volume. Packaged like a

sacred text, in faux parchment with a simulated wax seal, it

hints at the wisdom of the ages while sounding more like a

late-night infomercial: A winning lottery number? A cure

for cancer? A zero dress size? A date with George Clooney?

Instead of FedEx angels to do the packing and shipping,

Byrne and her cronies employ a platoon of genies. As

wealth coach James Ray explains, " The Genie always says

one thing: 'Your wish is my command!' " Confirms Byrne:

" You are the Master of the Universe and the Genie is there

to serve you. " Joe Vitale, a hypnotherapist, ordained

minister, and qigong healer, adds, " It's like having the

Universe as your catalogue. " But Lisa Nichols, CEO of

Motivating the Masses, cautions, " You must have complete

and utter faith. "

 

If you do, Byrne promises: " The Universe must deliver. " As

for product endorsement, Oprah's trademark ebullience was

just the start. Byrne also cites Pythagoras, Plato, Bacon, da

Vinci, Newton, Hugo, Beethoven, Lincoln, Emerson,

Einstein. As she confidently explains: " Poets such as

William Shakespeare, Robert Browning and William Blake

delivered it in their poetry. " Proctor confirms: " Wise people

have always known this. You can go right back to the

Babylonians. " Byrne again: " Through their understanding

and application of the laws of the Universe they became one

of the wealthiest races in history. " And now Proctor closes

the deal: " Why do you think that 1 percent of the population

earns around 96 percent of all the money that's being

earned? [...] They understand The Secret. "

 

The book's circular logic is dizzyingly clear. Since the

Secret is the generator of all success, then every successful

person must be practising it whether he or she knows it or

not. Similarly, any failure indicates a person is not

practising the Secret properly. Be forewarned: the Genie's

mind is literal, much like Google's, so if you rub his lamp

saying " not cancer " you may be accessing " cancer " rather

than " not. "

 

Despite these blatant caveats, The Secret does possess its

core wisdom. Optimism, confidence, cheerfulness -

Peale's Positive Thinking - do have an impact on one's

health, achievements, and relationships. For anyone able to

conquer irritation at the book's glibness, its inspirational

messages prove hypnotic, like ocean waves. But there's

more to The Secret's popularity than pep talks, wish

fulfillment, and dream team marketing.

 

For the past 300 years, materialism based on Newton's

physics and Darwin's biology has been Western society's

defining belief system. It's not that Newton and Darwin

were wrong, but that materialism has proven to be an

incomplete system, especially as a way of explaining

personal experience and the mysteries of existence.

 

The anecdote with which I began this article is only one of

many deeply meaningful events that have punctuated my

life at critical times, and that are difficult to force into a

materialistic shoebox. And in this realization, I'm not alone.

The knee-jerk habit of Western materialists who dismiss all

anecdotal evidence as without merit, as well as deride

information that can't be verified in a laboratory, has

alienated and confused a large portion of the population by

denying the validity of their personal experiences. This has

driven the more easily satisfied into the arms of evangelical

religion and the more thoughtful - or fashionable - into

an exploration of such other traditions as Buddhism,

kabbalism, and shamanism.

 

As history has aptly shown, extremism breeds its opposite.

It was no accident that too much talk of money in the 1980s

and '90s led to too much talk of angels. Today a more

dangerous version of that debate pits science (narrowly

defined as Darwinism) against religion (defined as

creationism), with few of the fulminators seeming to notice

the vast, unclaimed intellectual and spiritual territory

between the two.

 

The ironic genius of Rhonda Byrne and her Secret salesmen

lies in their skill at cultivating that fertile middle ground by

grafting our desire for material wealth onto our hunger for a

connection to the Greater Mystery, free of religious dogma.

Not a God to be served but a Genie to serve us. Who

wouldn't pay a few bucks for that?

[Guest guest]

, " msbauju " <msbauju wrote:

>

As history has aptly shown, extremism breeds its opposite.

It was no accident that too much talk of money in the 1980s

and '90s led to too much talk of angels.

 

That's just goofy. Most of the people that I know who got " into " angels were

looking for

magical prosperity....money.

 

This is not the opposite. Not for the people practicing it.

 

Also, although this was mega long, the part about the coincidental phone call

didn't seem

coincidental at all. It seemed like someone was using his phone without his

permission.

 

Namaste,

 

pr

[Guest guest]

I agree with you; New Age spiritualities seem to have

a definite " abundance " focus, and usually an economic

means of expression (i.e. the practitioners buy and

sell things that express their spiritualities.)

 

I think it makes for a rather difficult path in the long run.

 

, " prainbow61 " <paulie-

rainbow wrote:

>

> , " msbauju " <msbauju@> wrote:

> >

> As history has aptly shown, extremism breeds its opposite.

> It was no accident that too much talk of money in the 1980s

> and '90s led to too much talk of angels.

>

> That's just goofy. Most of the people that

> I know who got " into " angels were looking for

> magical prosperity....money.

>

> This is not the opposite. Not for the people practicing it.

>

[Guest guest]

It always bothers me when I go to a Hindus house, and they have Lakshmi and

Ganesha all over. It just seems to superficial. Please Ganesha help me with my

problems on earth, and Jai Lakshmi more Gold and wealth!

 

I am obviously not saying anything bad about Ganesha or Lakshmi, they are

divine and should be treated as such, it's just it's better to pray for

unselfish reasons.

 

I guess my point being is that this get rich formula doesn't discriminate

between religion or culture. Humans are generally selfish people, who wish to do

good, but selfishness is still very prominant

 

msbauju <msbauju wrote:

I agree with you; New Age spiritualities seem to have

a definite " abundance " focus, and usually an economic

means of expression (i.e. the practitioners buy and

sell things that express their spiritualities.)

 

I think it makes for a rather difficult path in the long run.

 

, " prainbow61 " <paulie-

rainbow wrote:

>

> , " msbauju " <msbauju@> wrote:

> >

> As history has aptly shown, extremism breeds its opposite.

> It was no accident that too much talk of money in the 1980s

> and '90s led to too much talk of angels.

>

> That's just goofy. Most of the people that

> I know who got " into " angels were looking for

> magical prosperity....money.

>

> This is not the opposite. Not for the people practicing it.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

This MAY be the reasons that some folks have the images of Ganesha and Lakshmi

in their homes. Then again the reasons MAY be different.

 

If I may share.

I have diety images to remind me of:

 

GANESHA - That there will ALWAYS be some obstacle in my way. Help me to

understand how MY choices have led me to this situation. Help me to really

know the sentience of earthly manifestation and transcendental diety which are

one in you, and thus, in me.

And further, as guardian of the chamber of the Goddess, I honor him first, that

he will remove the obstacles of my limitations that prevent full absorption in

her.

 

LAKSHMI- That I am grateful for having the OPPORTUNITY to make a good living

for myself and my family, and also have enough to be able to share with those in

need, and support my Guru and Temple.

 

SRI LALITA- That life is a blissful dance of love and beauty.

 

SARASWATI- Through knowledge we grow, and through the arts we touch and are

touched by the expression of one soul to another in the grand symphony of this

world.

 

KALI MA- That an awareness of the impermanence of the gift of life as a

progression of minutes, hours, days, years, and lifetimes means I have no time

to be wasting in less than optimal involvement .....and, all the time in the

universe to get it " right " if I need. To quote the song: " I " will still

remain, and I'll be back again.

 

These and many more are all ONE in my heart, with different, complementary

ideals for me to live with and by.

 

A little bit new-agey perhaps, but also a little bit more than

" give me gold and wealth " .

 

Namaste

Cliff

 

 

-

Ryan Bartz

Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:41 AM

Re: Re: Not So Secret:: Plundering Eastern religions

for profit

 

 

It always bothers me when I go to a Hindus house, and they have Lakshmi and

Ganesha all over. It just seems to superficial. Please Ganesha help me with my

problems on earth, and Jai Lakshmi more Gold and wealth!

 

I am obviously not saying anything bad about Ganesha or Lakshmi, they are

divine and should be treated as such, it's just it's better to pray for

unselfish reasons.

 

I guess my point being is that this get rich formula doesn't discriminate

between religion or culture. Humans are generally selfish people, who wish to do

good, but selfishness is still very prominant

[Guest guest]

oh I understand, they are both very immportant deities, I myself have both of

those deities in my alter. It's just easy to understand why these deities are so

popular. I just want to make clear that I wasn't saying that these Gods are bad,

because they are not, and every Hindu should worship Ganesha, and every Hindu

should worship Vishnu which if you worship Vishnu you have to worship his

consort Lakshmi.

 

Cliff <numinae wrote: This MAY be the reasons that some

folks have the images of Ganesha and Lakshmi in their homes. Then again the

reasons MAY be different.

 

If I may share.

I have diety images to remind me of:

 

GANESHA - That there will ALWAYS be some obstacle in my way. Help me to

understand how MY choices have led me to this situation. Help me to really know

the sentience of earthly manifestation and transcendental diety which are one in

you, and thus, in me.

And further, as guardian of the chamber of the Goddess, I honor him first, that

he will remove the obstacles of my limitations that prevent full absorption in

her.

 

LAKSHMI- That I am grateful for having the OPPORTUNITY to make a good living for

myself and my family, and also have enough to be able to share with those in

need, and support my Guru and Temple.

 

SRI LALITA- That life is a blissful dance of love and beauty.

 

SARASWATI- Through knowledge we grow, and through the arts we touch and are

touched by the expression of one soul to another in the grand symphony of this

world.

 

KALI MA- That an awareness of the impermanence of the gift of life as a

progression of minutes, hours, days, years, and lifetimes means I have no time

to be wasting in less than optimal involvement .....and, all the time in the

universe to get it " right " if I need. To quote the song: " I " will still remain,

and I'll be back again.

 

These and many more are all ONE in my heart, with different, complementary

ideals for me to live with and by.

 

A little bit new-agey perhaps, but also a little bit more than

" give me gold and wealth " .

 

Namaste

Cliff

 

-

Ryan Bartz

 

Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:41 AM

Re: Re: Not So Secret:: Plundering Eastern religions

for profit

 

It always bothers me when I go to a Hindus house, and they have Lakshmi and

Ganesha all over. It just seems to superficial. Please Ganesha help me with my

problems on earth, and Jai Lakshmi more Gold and wealth!

 

I am obviously not saying anything bad about Ganesha or Lakshmi, they are divine

and should be treated as such, it's just it's better to pray for unselfish

reasons.

 

I guess my point being is that this get rich formula doesn't discriminate

between religion or culture. Humans are generally selfish people, who wish to do

good, but selfishness is still very prominant

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

When I was making the transition between Christianity and Hinduism, I actually

was dabbling into Wicca. Some of the principles appealed to me, but then I

recalled being turned off by the content because it seemed that each author more

or less kept repeating and doing the exact same thing as the original authors.

It seemed that the books were coming en masse and there lacked quality.

 

Now, this is not to say that all Wiccans are in for the money (quite the

contrary, I know of some decent Wiccans), but it does bother me when they

eventually advertise their interpretation of other cultures and symbolisms as

the only way without acknowledging the actual symbols and interpretations from

the perspective of those who are more knowledgeable. I have seen a few books do

this, unfortunately. Some well-intent Western Feminist Neo-Pagan authors have

made Kali into a symbol of feminine retribution as opposed to the destroyer of

the ego...or at least something closer to how a significant number of Hindus

view her.

 

It bothers me when religious figures in general are exploited to further

people's goals. The same happened when Mother Teresa was alive; one religious

and spiritual woman of God, who loved India so much, was unwittingly propaganda

for xenophobic Westerners.

 

 

 

Jai Ma!

 

 

Sincerely,

Christina

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

---- msbauju <msbauju wrote:

> I agree with you; New Age spiritualities seem to have

> a definite " abundance " focus, and usually an economic

> means of expression (i.e. the practitioners buy and

> sell things that express their spiritualities.)

>

> I think it makes for a rather difficult path in the long run.

>

> , " prainbow61 " <paulie-

> rainbow wrote:

> >

> > , " msbauju " <msbauju@> wrote:

> > >

> > As history has aptly shown, extremism breeds its opposite.

> > It was no accident that too much talk of money in the 1980s

> > and '90s led to too much talk of angels.

> >

> > That's just goofy. Most of the people that

> > I know who got " into " angels were looking for

> > magical prosperity....money.

> >

> > This is not the opposite. Not for the people practicing it.

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Interesting perspective, what would you say is a better symbol of feminine

retribution?

 

Is there, in your opinion, an image or divinity that embodies that quality?

 

Respectfully,

 

pr

 

 

 

, <IlluminatedCelestial wrote:

>

> When I was making the transition between Christianity and Hinduism, I actually

was

dabbling into Wicca. Some of the principles appealed to me, but then I recalled

being

turned off by the content because it seemed that each author more or less kept

repeating

and doing the exact same thing as the original authors. It seemed that the

books were

coming en masse and there lacked quality.

>

> Now, this is not to say that all Wiccans are in for the money (quite the

contrary, I know

of some decent Wiccans), but it does bother me when they eventually advertise

their

interpretation of other cultures and symbolisms as the only way without

acknowledging

the actual symbols and interpretations from the perspective of those who are

more

knowledgeable. I have seen a few books do this, unfortunately. Some

well-intent Western

Feminist Neo-Pagan authors have made Kali into a symbol of feminine retribution

as

opposed to the destroyer of the ego...or at least something closer to how a

significant

number of Hindus view her.

>

> It bothers me when religious figures in general are exploited to further

people's goals.

The same happened when Mother Teresa was alive; one religious and spiritual

woman of

God, who loved India so much, was unwittingly propaganda for xenophobic

Westerners.

>

>

>

> Jai Ma!

>

>

> Sincerely,

> Christina

>

---- msbauju <msbauju wrote:

> > I agree with you; New Age spiritualities seem to have

> > a definite " abundance " focus, and usually an economic

> > means of expression (i.e. the practitioners buy and

> > sell things that express their spiritualities.)

> >

> > I think it makes for a rather difficult path in the long run.

> >

> > , " prainbow61 " <paulie-

> > rainbow@> wrote:

> > >

> > > , " msbauju " <msbauju@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > As history has aptly shown, extremism breeds its opposite.

> > > It was no accident that too much talk of money in the 1980s

> > > and '90s led to too much talk of angels.

> > >

> > > That's just goofy. Most of the people that

> > > I know who got " into " angels were looking for

> > > magical prosperity....money.

> > >

> > > This is not the opposite. Not for the people practicing it.

> > >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

My opinion is that Kali is a feminine symbol of retribution, however she is much

more then that. She is the destroyer of the Ego, she is the protector, she is

light, she is black. She is Mother of All. The problem with the 'new age'

worship of Kali, is that many just worship her to take care of that sexist boss

of their...lol... :-s

 

prainbow61 <paulie-rainbow wrote: Namaste,

 

Interesting perspective, what would you say is a better symbol of feminine

retribution?

 

Is there, in your opinion, an image or divinity that embodies that quality?

 

Respectfully,

 

pr

 

, <IlluminatedCelestial wrote:

>

>[....] Some well-intent Western

Feminist Neo-Pagan authors have made Kali into a symbol of feminine retribution

as

opposed to the destroyer of the ego...or at least something closer to how a

significant

number of Hindus view her.

[....]

[Guest guest]

, Ryan Bartz <sicpit wrote:

>

> It always bothers me when I go to a Hindus house, and they have

Lakshmi and Ganesha all over. It just seems to superficial. Please

Ganesha help me with my problems on earth, and Jai Lakshmi more Gold

and wealth!

>

> I am obviously not saying anything bad about Ganesha or Lakshmi,

they are divine and should be treated as such, it's just it's better

to pray for unselfish reasons.

>

> I guess my point being is that this get rich formula doesn't

discriminate between religion or culture. Humans are generally

selfish people, who wish to do good, but selfishness is still very

prominant

>

 

 

Before you make a comment saying they are superficial dont you think

its best to get an understanding first? You see things differently

as a born hindu or somebody brought up since young as hindu. I

remember during my younger days, I used to pass the buddhist and the

hindu temple. I never understood then why these people are

worshipping the idol. I use to say : these are just stones..... why

are these people praying to a stone. Then something struck.......and

I began to ask : These are not uneducated people. They are doctors,

lawyeres etc..... what did they see that i dont? That is how my

journey begins.... this need to find and understanding. Maybe you

should do the same.... and stop trying to compare one from another.

 

I have ganesha infront of my house at the top of the door, then

another 3 ganesha in his different forms as you walk up the stairs

towards the pooja room. Laksmi on top of the door from inside. And

Gajah Laksmi greeting you as you enter the living room. What's wrong

with it?

[Guest guest]

I suppose I see a difference between justice and retribution, but in the end,

the concept of making an " us vs. them " does not seem like the best way to

approach most Hindu deities. Retribution, to me, is not always justice and can

easily be selfish and turned into revenge.

 

Since I believe that revenge is a temptation of the ego, I suppose I do not

think that any deity represents it, at least on a regular basis. Good and evil

are both creations of God/dess, yes, but I would think that God/dess would want

us to be as divine as possible, which includes the eventual withering of the

ego.

 

Now, in respect to other cultures, there are other deities that seem to stand

for retribution, and perhaps there exists one for feminine retribution out

there. I am not saying that the view of Kali as a symbol of feminine

retribution is completely wrong, but from what I have read and understood, that

sort of symbolism does no justice to her traditional Eastern symbolisms.

 

Of course, she is also my ishta devata and perhaps I am biased to an extent.

 

 

Jai Ma!

 

 

Sincerely,

Christina

[Guest guest]

There is nothing wrong with Ganesha or Lakshmi worship, I too have Lakshmi and

Ganesha deities. I have already explained myself earlier, and do not really

feel like explaining myself again.

 

Jaya Ganapati

Jaya Lakshmi Ma

[Guest guest]

And this there-in lies the problem. As I said, viewing her in such a way is not

completely wrong, but it seems somewhat improper because the form of retribution

that I talk about is the kind that is closest to revenge. It seems that if Kali

was not a retribution figure, some of these New Agers seem to refuse to

acknowledge her existence.

 

And maybe my views of her are not 100% proper, either. I view her as the

destroyer of the ego, who will eventually help me let go of my selfish desires.

She sometimes is harsh, but only for her children's own good and not for some

capriciously cruel and malicious reason. If something keeps the person from

being closer to divinity, she will be the one to remove that obstacle, etc. So

in some ways, I see her as the opposite of the feminine retribution concept

since usually, the feminine retribution concept used by some of these people is

little more than satisfying vengeful agendas against the injustices on females.

While wanting justice is all and good, some of these people seek a complete " us

vs. them " war.

 

 

Sincerely,

Christina

[Guest guest]

, <IlluminatedCelestial

wrote:

>

> When I was making the transition between Christianity and

Hinduism, I actually was dabbling into Wicca. Some of the

principles appealed to me, but then I recalled being turned off by

the content because it seemed that each author more or less kept

repeating and doing the exact same thing as the original authors.

It seemed that the books were coming en masse and there lacked

quality.

 

 

Sorry, I just have this urge to respond to this statement.

 

All this thing about making a transition.... This is what ive been

thinking for the last few days : Why am I not satisfied? I asked my

guru this question before. Why? Why cant i be like for eg my

husband. He is so content with what he have. He do not have a

guru... he dose his pooja everyday without any issues. He does not

seek anything but what that comes to him. But NO I wanted more. I

believe I deserve more because I wanted to believe there are more

for me out there..... only to realise that this need to seek..

brings in more pain. I create my own pain.

 

I asked this question now everyday : why am I never satisfied with

anything?

 

Is it because I am seeking happiness.. and I think that through

constant change I will be happey. Indeed ive been told many times,

change is a normal process. We must change. To remain stagnant is

death. So I move from one job to another, from one relationship to

another, from one religion or ideology to another, thinking this

constant movement of change will bring forth happiness.

 

But do they?

[Guest guest]

When I see lots of images of Lakshmi and Ganesha paired up, I get the

feeling that the devotee is of the Vaishya (Merchant) caste, and their

world-view is exclusively tied to the idea of earning a profit.

 

I prefer the images of the Deepavali pandal, where Ganesha and

Saraswati are seated on either side of Lakshmi. It adds the Sattva

guna, and respect for creativity and knowledge. With these three,

everything is possible. (And when Ganesha is present, be assured that

Durga, or Kali, or Uma, is also there as mother of the universe.)

 

-- Len/ Kalipadma

 

 

, Ryan Bartz <sicpit wrote:

>

> There is nothing wrong with Ganesha or Lakshmi worship, I too have

Lakshmi and Ganesha deities. I have already explained myself earlier,

and do not really feel like explaining myself again.

>

> Jaya Ganapati

> Jaya Lakshmi Ma

>

[Guest guest]

Cliff said:

 

" and every Hindu should worship Ganesha, and every Hindu should worship Vishnu

which if you worship Vishnu you have to worship his consort Lakshmi. "

 

I am sorry but I take exception to this. Every follower of the Sanatana Dharma

should worship the One God/Goddess, in whatever form(s) appeals most to them.

 

JAI AMMA!

 

Surya

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ryan's statements are, overall, simply too categorical to be

meaningful or useful in interpreting these forms of God, or the way

in which their worshipers approach and understand them. Thus he

inadvertently found himself on the defensive.

 

A similar problem is on display in the post suggesting that the

Vaishya " world view, " apparently including the worship of God,

is " exclusively tied to the idea of earning a profit. "

 

Such matters of the spirit are, on the contrary, entirely subjective

and vary hugely between equally sincere worshipers and devotees as

individuals, regardless of class, caste, or denomination. To try and

classify " Hindus " or even " Vaishyas " as monolithic groups who

uniformly believe certain things about certain deities is not only

inaccurate -- it also smacks unpleasantly of a

judgmental, " Anthropology 101 " take on an ancient and endlessly

complex system of religion.

 

aim mAtangyai namaH

 

 

 

 

 

, " Len Rosenberg "

<kalipadma108 wrote:

>

> When I see lots of images of Lakshmi and Ganesha paired up, I get

the

> feeling that the devotee is of the Vaishya (Merchant) caste, and

their

> world-view is exclusively tied to the idea of earning a profit.

>

> I prefer the images of the Deepavali pandal, where Ganesha and

> Saraswati are seated on either side of Lakshmi. It adds the Sattva

> guna, and respect for creativity and knowledge. With these three,

> everything is possible. (And when Ganesha is present, be assured

that

> Durga, or Kali, or Uma, is also there as mother of the universe.)

>

> -- Len/ Kalipadma

>

>

> , Ryan Bartz <sicpit@> wrote:

> >

> > There is nothing wrong with Ganesha or Lakshmi worship, I too have

> Lakshmi and Ganesha deities. I have already explained myself

earlier,

> and do not really feel like explaining myself again.

> >

> > Jaya Ganapati

> > Jaya Lakshmi Ma

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Well, actually that was Ryan and not me stating the quote that you are objecting

toSurya.

He was responding to my responding to him.

 

It is interesting that you take exception to Ryan saying " every Hindu SHOULD

worship...... "

and then follow with " every follower of Sanatana Dharma SHOULD

worship......... " .

 

If my understanding of Sanatana is not too skewed, I believe it recognizes that

ALL of the Gods are aspects of Brahman, and if you worship any one you are also

worshipping any, all, or none of the others as your abilities, proclivities and

ultimately your heart may direct you. Thus, the Vedic scholar-priest in an

elaborate temple and the single sadhu devotedly uttering a single syllable

mantram in the woods are both (in my conception) a part of the Sanatana Dharma.

 

In my personal case, I could not adequately worship all of the Ishta Devatas

each day as there would not be enough time to eat, work and sleep. Thus I

devote different days to different Devi/Deva practices. Ganesha is never

jealous of Shiva, and neither is Shakti (in any of her glorious forms) for in a

reality beyond my little conception I believe that they are the same.

 

My subjective experience of Sri Lalita is obviously different than my subjective

experience of Shiva, but the goal, as well as the transcendent reality they are

faces of is the same.

 

Namaste

Cliff

 

 

-

Mahamuni Das

Friday, January 18, 2008 10:21 AM

Re: Not So Secret:: Plundering Eastern religions for

profit

 

 

Cliff said:

 

" and every Hindu should worship Ganesha, and every Hindu should worship Vishnu

which if you worship Vishnu you have to worship his consort Lakshmi. "

 

I am sorry but I take exception to this. Every follower of the Sanatana Dharma

should worship the One God/Goddess, in whatever form(s) appeals most to them.

 

JAI AMMA!

 

Surya

 

[Guest guest]

By no means am I limiting any deity, I am simply stating a fact that people do

worship God (insert any deity from any religion) for material wealth. If I am

wrong, about my accusation about people from ALL religions worshiping for

selfish needs, then so is the claim that wiccans do the same!

 

Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta wrote: Ryan's statements are,

overall, simply too categorical to be

meaningful or useful in interpreting these forms of God, or the way

in which their worshipers approach and understand them. Thus he

inadvertently found himself on the defensive.

 

A similar problem is on display in the post suggesting that the

Vaishya " world view, " apparently including the worship of God,

is " exclusively tied to the idea of earning a profit. "

 

Such matters of the spirit are, on the contrary, entirely subjective

and vary hugely between equally sincere worshipers and devotees as

individuals, regardless of class, caste, or denomination. To try and

classify " Hindus " or even " Vaishyas " as monolithic groups who

uniformly believe certain things about certain deities is not only

inaccurate -- it also smacks unpleasantly of a

judgmental, " Anthropology 101 " take on an ancient and endlessly

complex system of religion.

 

aim mAtangyai namaH

 

, " Len Rosenberg "

<kalipadma108 wrote:

>

> When I see lots of images of Lakshmi and Ganesha paired up, I get

the

> feeling that the devotee is of the Vaishya (Merchant) caste, and

their

> world-view is exclusively tied to the idea of earning a profit.

>

> I prefer the images of the Deepavali pandal, where Ganesha and

> Saraswati are seated on either side of Lakshmi. It adds the Sattva

> guna, and respect for creativity and knowledge. With these three,

> everything is possible. (And when Ganesha is present, be assured

that

> Durga, or Kali, or Uma, is also there as mother of the universe.)

>

> -- Len/ Kalipadma

>

>

> , Ryan Bartz <sicpit@> wrote:

> >

> > There is nothing wrong with Ganesha or Lakshmi worship, I too have

> Lakshmi and Ganesha deities. I have already explained myself

earlier,

> and do not really feel like explaining myself again.

> >

> > Jaya Ganapati

> > Jaya Lakshmi Ma

> >

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I spoke with someone recently who was in the position of having to face an

abusive

spouse possibly in court. I was reminded of the section of the Devi Mahatmya

where the

messenger of the demons warns the Goddess that She should not be so haughty,

that She

should humbly present Herself as a bride for one of the two of them:

 

" Let it not come to pass that your are brought into their presence being dragged

by the

hair, losing your dignity! "

 

Of course what does come to pass is seven or eight pages of the Goddess and Her

divine

mount kicking demon butt.

 

For anyone that has been abused as a " mere woman, " to quote the messenger, this

is a

satisfying passage about the ego of the abusive demons towards the female Deity.

 

It's all well and good to want to act out of the best of motives and rid oneself

of ego, but it

is challenging to do so when you are getting your money cut off and your ribs

kicked in.

 

One can hardly blame those who have had those experiences for taking delight in

scripture that shows the ego that is taking a beating as the one belonging to

those who

would belittle the Goddess as a " mere woman. "

 

Where is the scripture that provides the most excellent moral guidance for

people who

should get out of situations that will kill or cripple them? Where is the

scripture that one

should recommend for someone who desperately needs to consider themselves fully

human and needs to stand up for themselves?

 

I may be wrong, but I say let them be drawn to the satisfaction of an image of

retribution,

and perhaps they will stay long enough to also benefit from all the rest of Her

guidance.

 

Namaste,

 

pr

 

, <IlluminatedCelestial wrote:

>

> And this there-in lies the problem. As I said, viewing her in such a way is

not

completely wrong, but it seems somewhat improper because the form of retribution

that I

talk about is the kind that is closest to revenge. It seems that if Kali was

not a retribution

figure, some of these New Agers seem to refuse to acknowledge her existence.

>

> And maybe my views of her are not 100% proper, either. I view her as the

destroyer of

the ego, who will eventually help me let go of my selfish desires. She

sometimes is harsh,

but only for her children's own good and not for some capriciously cruel and

malicious

reason. If something keeps the person from being closer to divinity, she will

be the one to

remove that obstacle, etc. So in some ways, I see her as the opposite of the

feminine

retribution concept since usually, the feminine retribution concept used by some

of these

people is little more than satisfying vengeful agendas against the injustices on

females.

While wanting justice is all and good, some of these people seek a complete " us

vs. them "

war.

>

>

> Sincerely,

> Christina

>

[Guest guest]

Well, the story that is presented here strikes me as something that is a

persistent problem and not something based on pure revenge. In addition to this,

I am not necessarily averse to standing up for one's self as much as being

outright vindictive; sadly, retribution easily leads to this way. I consider

'immediate threats/situations' a different matter all together. And as I said

before, justice and retribution are not always the same.

 

I volunteer at the Crisis Center, which shelters victims and children from

families of domestic violence and sexual assault, so I can sympathize with these

women. They have the right to hope for the day that the batterers are put

behind bars and brought to justice. The retribution that I speak about goes

beyond that point of justice, but becomes a personal revenge. While I can

understand this desire for revenge, it is not always justice if it is not

tempered with mercy, I guess...

 

I suppose I should have clarified what I meant and should have noted the

retribution based on pure punishment and not justice. Furthermore, you are

right: if there is an immediate problem, that problem needs to be solved in

order to learn how to let things go. It is like the Western humanist Psychology

model called Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. At the bottom of the pyramid, there

exists the Physiological needs, then above that is need for Security...Love and

Belonging...Esteem...and at the top, is Self-Actualization. In some ways, I

think this pyramid applies well to spiritual needs. Sometimes...just

sometimes...it is difficult to obtain the 'higher' needs without obtaining the

lower needs. (As a note, Maslow believed that very few people were on the stage

of Self-Actualization, but Mother Teresa, Mahatma Gandhi, etc. were considered a

several examples.)

 

Perhaps my previous explanations should have been an indicator to myself that I

should have clarified the 'needs' and 'wants' more. The women noted in this

post are in need to be relieved of the battering. To have the person put to

justice, yet for one of them to want to take that justice in their own hands and

turn it into torturous punishment or revenge is what I think makes the

difference in distinguishing justice and retribution (in the form of revenge).

 

I hope this makes more sense. But either way, it brings another interesting

point in how some of the Eastern culture is exploited in the West. Some

Westerners (I say 'some' so that I do not say the entire West is like this) I

have met - and for all I know, maybe it happens in the East too - seemed to only

dabble into the New Age and 'different' cultures when they wanted

something...like a tarot reading alone, or an easier way for monetary gain, or

something similar...and then when they are faced with the concept of wanting

something such as enlightenment or the fulfillment of worldly obligations, they

more or less leave those learning books alone. This is another part of what I

consider exploitation of other cultures.

 

I hope I created no hard feelings with my posts.

 

 

Jai Ma!

 

Sincerely,

Christina

---- prainbow61 <paulie-rainbow wrote:

> I spoke with someone recently who was in the position of having to face an

abusive

> spouse possibly in court. I was reminded of the section of the Devi Mahatmya

where the

> messenger of the demons warns the Goddess that She should not be so haughty,

that She

> should humbly present Herself as a bride for one of the two of them:

>

> " Let it not come to pass that your are brought into their presence being

dragged by the

> hair, losing your dignity! "

>

> Of course what does come to pass is seven or eight pages of the Goddess and

Her divine

> mount kicking demon butt.

>

> For anyone that has been abused as a " mere woman, " to quote the messenger,

this is a

> satisfying passage about the ego of the abusive demons towards the female

Deity.

>

> It's all well and good to want to act out of the best of motives and rid

oneself of ego, but it

> is challenging to do so when you are getting your money cut off and your ribs

kicked in.

>

> One can hardly blame those who have had those experiences for taking delight

in

> scripture that shows the ego that is taking a beating as the one belonging to

those who

> would belittle the Goddess as a " mere woman. "

>

> Where is the scripture that provides the most excellent moral guidance for

people who

> should get out of situations that will kill or cripple them? Where is the

scripture that one

> should recommend for someone who desperately needs to consider themselves

fully

> human and needs to stand up for themselves?

>

> I may be wrong, but I say let them be drawn to the satisfaction of an image of

retribution,

> and perhaps they will stay long enough to also benefit from all the rest of

Her guidance.

>

> Namaste,

>

> pr

>

> , <IlluminatedCelestial wrote:

> >

> > And this there-in lies the problem. As I said, viewing her in such a way is

not

> completely wrong, but it seems somewhat improper because the form of

retribution that I

> talk about is the kind that is closest to revenge. It seems that if Kali was

not a retribution

> figure, some of these New Agers seem to refuse to acknowledge her existence.

> >

> > And maybe my views of her are not 100% proper, either. I view her as the

destroyer of

> the ego, who will eventually help me let go of my selfish desires. She

sometimes is harsh,

> but only for her children's own good and not for some capriciously cruel and

malicious

> reason. If something keeps the person from being closer to divinity, she will

be the one to

> remove that obstacle, etc. So in some ways, I see her as the opposite of the

feminine

> retribution concept since usually, the feminine retribution concept used by

some of these

> people is little more than satisfying vengeful agendas against the injustices

on females.

> While wanting justice is all and good, some of these people seek a complete

" us vs. them "

> war.

> >

> >

> > Sincerely,

> > Christina

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jai Kali Ma!

There are some very interesting topics going on here!

First, regarding Ganesha/Lakshmi, Hindus, Vaishyas etc.:

I have to say that as an american living in the Southern US, in the

buckle of the bible belt, I am very grateful for the community of

Indians in my area at the convenience stores, motels, gas stations

and Subways! After a few times greeting with " namaste " , I am usually

given the darshan of the deities and at times, and in the case of

some hotels I am invited in for tea! My last experience was in the

convenience store where I was shown Ganesha taped to one cash

register, Lakshmi taped to the other and then they took me in the

back room so I could get the darshan of Lord Krishna. I was given a

pic of Radha/Krishna from the wall and then the shopkeeper gave me

his own picture of Sai Baba of Shirdi right out of his wallet! No,

none of these hardworking small businesspeople are sadhus or

renunciates but many are great bhaktas and they are very generous

folks. I have even recieved a large framed picture of Ma Parvati,

decorated in brilliant sequins from a woman in a hotel in Florida

whom I have never met, a friend stayed there and remarked to the

woman that her friend back home was a Western Hindu and a worshipper

of the Goddess and that woman sent back the picture with my friend to

give to me! So if I ever need a little bhakti juice, I just go see my

local merchant! Although I find that these folks are actually mostly

pretty conservative Vaishnavas/devotees of Vishnu, I feel I have more

in common with them than I do with the local " new-age " community

which is way into " The Secret " right now.

About Ma Kali and the " new-age " and " wicca/pagan " movement, I find

that there are so many misinterpretations both in print in in modern

images by westerners. I found a tie-dye fabric print of Ma Kali that

actually shows Kali stabbing Shiva with the trident and bordered by

celtic style knotwork! To accompany that vision there are many new-

age feminist style books that support the same misunderstanding, for

example; from Vicki Noble's " Shakti Woman " - " Kali even goes so far as

to be seen cutting off Shiva's head (ego, identity) so that his

energy can get free " I find that these two examples seem to be

typical of the western new age movements interpretaion of the ancient

wisdom of India. It is glaringly obvious that such authors and

artists never studied the actual traditions and texts! Perhaps their

info comes down to us from 1950's comic books!

I once asked Ma during meditation, " What do I do? This stuff

really ticks me off, they have got you all wrong Ma! " What was Ma's

response? " Take your sadhana out of the closet! " " Share your

experience! You have been doing this long enough to share! " Shortly

afterward I got an invitation to do a workshop at the local Pagan

Festival! I have never " given a workshop " before but I have led group

meditations and chanting so I gave it try. I have done 3 of them so

far and it has been a great way to expose this community to the

tradition and philosophy and to dispel the misinterpretations that so

many pick up from such books and images.

About the Chandi- No wimpy devotee can muster the strength to

overcome their own limited programming. I am so wimpy! In that state

of " wimpiness " I am controlled by the programming and when I am

controlled by the programming I have absolutly no power to handle

worldly affairs efficiently and I am likely to be taken advantage of

or make poor decisions. This has been the lesson of my own

experiences in abusive relationships. And yes, Ma Kali and especially

the 3rd episode of the Chandi have helped me out here but not at all

in the sense of " feminine retribution " . Rather than try to " sic " Ma

Kali on my abusers, (which they may well deserve but I will leave it

to Her!), I try to identify with that Wonderous, Powerful Ma and

strike down the programming, not the person. The problem is my own

programming for wimpiness, that I am not good enough, that I am less

powerful, that I am only a woman, that I lack resources, that I need

some guy to love me, that I can never do all the work of sadhana,

that I am too impure, I could go on and on! I repeat that process of

identification with Ma and the destruction of unwanted programming

whenever I feel resentment or anger toward past abusers as well. When

my programming is reduced somewhat, I can sometimes glimpse the inner

programs of others and I realize that it is the same ignorance that

manifests as the abused and the abuser and I take that sword and cut

down the ignorance. Having gone through this process, I realize that

like the Mother who refuses to marry the demon king Shumbha (or his

brother) I am a sovereign being and I can divorce myself from my own

programming and refuse to join with it again, because if I marry it,

it will control me and I will never be able to remember myself as

Brahman in that condition. So, with a loud HUM! I strike down the

minions of little puny thoughts and delusions that arise from the

root programming of my own seperate ego, that controlling, grasping

Demon King.

So, visit your local convenience store and get the darshan, share the

bhakti, share whatever parts of your study, experience and sadhana

that you feel is appropriate with others, and roar like Mother Kali

in the face of adversity!

Love and Gratitude to all for sharing on this forum!

Leela

 

 

, " Devi Bhakta "

<devi_bhakta wrote:

>

> Ryan's statements are, overall, simply too categorical to be

> meaningful or useful in interpreting these forms of God, or the way

> in which their worshipers approach and understand them. Thus he

> inadvertently found himself on the defensive.

>

> A similar problem is on display in the post suggesting that the

> Vaishya " world view, " apparently including the worship of God,

> is " exclusively tied to the idea of earning a profit. "

>

> Such matters of the spirit are, on the contrary, entirely

subjective

> and vary hugely between equally sincere worshipers and devotees as

> individuals, regardless of class, caste, or denomination. To try

and

> classify " Hindus " or even " Vaishyas " as monolithic groups who

> uniformly believe certain things about certain deities is not only

> inaccurate -- it also smacks unpleasantly of a

> judgmental, " Anthropology 101 " take on an ancient and endlessly

> complex system of religion.

>

> aim mAtangyai namaH

>

>

>

>

>

> , " Len Rosenberg "

> <kalipadma108@> wrote:

> >

> > When I see lots of images of Lakshmi and Ganesha paired up, I get

> the

> > feeling that the devotee is of the Vaishya (Merchant) caste, and

> their

> > world-view is exclusively tied to the idea of earning a profit.

> >

> > I prefer the images of the Deepavali pandal, where Ganesha and

> > Saraswati are seated on either side of Lakshmi. It adds the

Sattva

> > guna, and respect for creativity and knowledge. With these three,

> > everything is possible. (And when Ganesha is present, be assured

> that

> > Durga, or Kali, or Uma, is also there as mother of the universe.)

> >

> > -- Len/ Kalipadma

> >

> >

> > , Ryan Bartz <sicpit@> wrote:

> > >

> > > There is nothing wrong with Ganesha or Lakshmi worship, I too

have

> > Lakshmi and Ganesha deities. I have already explained myself

> earlier,

> > and do not really feel like explaining myself again.

> > >

> > > Jaya Ganapati

> > > Jaya Lakshmi Ma

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Christina,

I agree with you in part, but not others. Yes, it does seem that

feminist Neopagans have made Kali Ma into a symbol of retribition.

But, I don't usually run into Neopagans who say there interpretation

is the only Way. Quite the opposite, really.

 

Nine Blessings,

Stephen

 

, <IlluminatedCelestial

wrote:

>

> When I was making the transition between Christianity and Hinduism,

I actually was dabbling into Wicca. Some of the principles appealed

to me, but then I recalled being turned off by the content because it

seemed that each author more or less kept repeating and doing the

exact same thing as the original authors. It seemed that the books

were coming en masse and there lacked quality.

>

> Now, this is not to say that all Wiccans are in for the money

(quite the contrary, I know of some decent Wiccans), but it does

bother me when they eventually advertise their interpretation of

other cultures and symbolisms as the only way without acknowledging

the actual symbols and interpretations from the perspective of those

who are more knowledgeable. I have seen a few books do this,

unfortunately. Some well-intent Western Feminist Neo-Pagan authors

have made Kali into a symbol of feminine retribution as opposed to

the destroyer of the ego...or at least something closer to how a

significant number of Hindus view her.

>

> It bothers me when religious figures in general are exploited to

further people's goals. The same happened when Mother Teresa was

alive; one religious and spiritual woman of God, who loved India so

much, was unwittingly propaganda for xenophobic Westerners.

>

>

>

> Jai Ma!

>

>

> Sincerely,

> Christina

[Guest guest]

Every Hindu will worship Ganesha - as HE is to be worshipped

irrespective if one is a Shivite or Vaishnavite - before commencing

any task. HE is Vigneswara, who removes any obstacles.

 

Rest depends on one's own personal preference. There is no hard and

fast rule, as Mahamuni stated.

 

Typically, as Cliff had described, Saraswathi and Lakshmi are

worshipped as they represent learning and wealth. With Lakshmi, it is

not just material wealth, but sarva sowbagyam, meaning all good things

in one's life.

 

If one is NOT a renunciate, then their lives need all auspicious

things to carry out their worldly duties. To the untrained eye, it

might appear to be " I want more $$ " - But the implicit/esoteric reason

being, it is not just $$, also good children, ability to take care of

them, take care of your elders, do benevolent deeds like contributing

to temples, perform necessary rituals as required. Everything needs a

grant of permission from the upper management.

 

Well, this is sakthi sadhana forum. Has anyone ever wondered why any

Srividya upasak is never short for $$ or never short of resources to

perform benevolent deeds??

 

Give it a thought. Sri Vidya as DB mentioned is everything in this

Universe. SHE takes care of everything the upasak needs (not wants) to

worship HER.

 

When I was a kid, I always thought Sri Vidya is a rich

man's " religion " . But, then I realized that on the contrary, SHE takes

care of everything, all one has to do is to worship HER.

 

SHE is Sri = $$ and all wealth and Vidya = all knowledge (rather an

ignorant, worldly interpretation on my part).

 

So, is it wrong to worship HER because SHE grants all wealth and

knowledge? No, one just do not worry about it. SHE gives because SHE

sees a reason for the upasaka to receive the wealth and will also

provide directions on how to utilize the wealth.

 

SHE will also provide knowledge and siddhi as the upasaka needs and

some more, to help the upasaka to " see " what need be seen.

 

Duty of the upasaka is to treat them as ONLY " fringe benefits " and

lead a normal life.

 

This would also answer another question appearing here, " Why I'm not

content? "

 

I think it was Ramana Maharishi who said, " Happiness comes NOT from

having everything one wants. But, from having a few wants. "

 

Thus, even if one has all the necessary wealth, knowledge and siddhi,

if one does not want it, one can be happy.

 

To worship and God, one does not need anything but think of the God.

God does not require one to know sanskrit to pray. If (S)HE wants it,

one will learn it.

 

This message is getting too long, but I will add this little story I

read a few months ago. A real life experience by an Anjeneya baktha

who built a temple for HIM in Madras (Chennai), in a locality called

Nanganallur.

 

Before he built that temple, he was visiting an Anjeneya temple in

southern Tamil Nadu. He did not know sanskrit, could not read

devanagari script. So he used to use sanskrit transliterated in Tamil

to sing prayers. In the temple, he was chanting prayers and at the end

a very old man (in his 80's) criticized him strongly for his lack of

proper pronunciation of sanskrit words. The devotee was distraught and

spent the whole night crying and fell asleep early in the morning.

During that short sleep, he had a dream of Anjeneya whispering the

first few slokas of the prayer into his ear, which he chanted earlier

in the temple.

 

After Sun was up, the devotee took a bath and got a prayer book in

devanagari script only and was able to read and chant with proper

pronunciation as if he had learnt sanskrit since childhood.

 

The reason the God had granted him the knowledge of sanskrit is

probably to prepare him to chant mantras to perform rituals while

consecreating the temple he will build in a few years time or probably

because the devotee asked for knowledge only to worship and not to

make personaly fortune out of it.

 

 

So, don't worry and be happy and pray - everything will be taken care

of.

 

, Ryan Bartz <sicpit wrote:

>

> oh I understand, they are both very immportant deities, I myself

have both of those deities in my alter. It's just easy to understand

why these deities are so popular. I just want to make clear that I

wasn't saying that these Gods are bad, because they are not, and every

Hindu should worship Ganesha, and every Hindu should worship Vishnu

which if you worship Vishnu you have to worship his consort Lakshmi.

[Guest guest]

And in theory, that is part of some of their teachings - at least, that is what

I gathered when I read about Neo-Paganism. However, I am not talking about -all-

Neo-Pagans. I speak of some of the authors who write in a condescending manner

and belittle anything other than their way.

 

But anyway, I digress. I hope I cleared up what I meant. ^^

 

Sincerely,

Christina

 

---- ganesa16 <ganesa16 wrote:

> Hi Christina,

> I agree with you in part, but not others. Yes, it does seem that

> feminist Neopagans have made Kali Ma into a symbol of retribition.

> But, I don't usually run into Neopagans who say there interpretation

> is the only Way. Quite the opposite, really.

>

> Nine Blessings,

> Stephen

>

> , <IlluminatedCelestial

> wrote:

> >

> > When I was making the transition between Christianity and Hinduism,

> I actually was dabbling into Wicca. Some of the principles appealed

> to me, but then I recalled being turned off by the content because it

> seemed that each author more or less kept repeating and doing the

> exact same thing as the original authors. It seemed that the books

> were coming en masse and there lacked quality.

> >

> > Now, this is not to say that all Wiccans are in for the money

> (quite the contrary, I know of some decent Wiccans), but it does

> bother me when they eventually advertise their interpretation of

> other cultures and symbolisms as the only way without acknowledging

> the actual symbols and interpretations from the perspective of those

> who are more knowledgeable. I have seen a few books do this,

> unfortunately. Some well-intent Western Feminist Neo-Pagan authors

> have made Kali into a symbol of feminine retribution as opposed to

> the destroyer of the ego...or at least something closer to how a

> significant number of Hindus view her.

> >

> > It bothers me when religious figures in general are exploited to

> further people's goals. The same happened when Mother Teresa was

> alive; one religious and spiritual woman of God, who loved India so

> much, was unwittingly propaganda for xenophobic Westerners.

> >

> >

> >

> > Jai Ma!

> >

> >

> > Sincerely,

> > Christina

>

>