Not So Secret:: Plundering Eastern religions for profit

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

There is a lot that can be discussed about the intersections between what is

broadly called

" neopaganism " and various Hindu traditions. Both are rather broad areas and so

the

danger is that it is easy to fall into generalizations and meaninglessness.

 

Can anyone speak accurately about Hinduism having read some books? Popular

books?

Widely available cheaply produced tracts to be picked up at a newsstand? Puja

books?

 

To understand Hinduism do you need to study with a guru? A temple priest? Any

person

who has done their own puja?

 

Do you need to take action to know Hinduism? Perform your own prayers? Go to

temple?

 

If there are ways that you personally think are authentic ways of understanding

Hinduism,

are you holding your understanding of " Neopaganism " or any other practice, to

the same

standard?

 

It is because of the way that these questions occur to me that I see that such

broad

comparisons can only open a dialogue, but cannot sustain it.

 

For sustenance we need a little more focus and having started so broadly we can

go in any

direction of comparison that interests us.

 

I like the direction of the power of the Goddess image to the (non-Hindu)

uninitiated. You

cannot deny the effect and it is interesting to see how it is taken up and made

use of. I am

interested to hear what my respected fellow members think of this, the positive

and the

danger.

 

Also I find it interesting to see what ordinary people do with images of

religion and faith.

Whatever we can say about a religious canon, something marvelous takes place

when

people are seeking spiritual sustenance. It's very organic and it can in time

evolve into a

canon of belief.

 

I think that this is happening in " Neopaganism " It is evolving and adapting, and

having

been exposed to a living tradition of Goddess worship there is an excitement

about the

images and rituals available.

 

pr

 

 

, <IlluminatedCelestial wrote:

>

> And in theory, that is part of some of their teachings - at least, that is

what I gathered

when I read about Neo-Paganism. However, I am not talking about -all-

Neo-Pagans. I

speak of some of the authors who write in a condescending manner and belittle

anything

other than their way.

>

> But anyway, I digress. I hope I cleared up what I meant. ^^

>

> Sincerely,

> Christina

>

> ---- ganesa16 <ganesa16 wrote:

> > Hi Christina,

> > I agree with you in part, but not others. Yes, it does seem that

> > feminist Neopagans have made Kali Ma into a symbol of retribition.

> > But, I don't usually run into Neopagans who say there interpretation

> > is the only Way. Quite the opposite, really.

> >

> > Nine Blessings,

> > Stephen

> >

> > , <IlluminatedCelestial@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > When I was making the transition between Christianity and Hinduism,

> > I actually was dabbling into Wicca. Some of the principles appealed

> > to me, but then I recalled being turned off by the content because it

> > seemed that each author more or less kept repeating and doing the

> > exact same thing as the original authors. It seemed that the books

> > were coming en masse and there lacked quality.

> > >

> > > Now, this is not to say that all Wiccans are in for the money

> > (quite the contrary, I know of some decent Wiccans), but it does

> > bother me when they eventually advertise their interpretation of

> > other cultures and symbolisms as the only way without acknowledging

> > the actual symbols and interpretations from the perspective of those

> > who are more knowledgeable. I have seen a few books do this,

> > unfortunately. Some well-intent Western Feminist Neo-Pagan authors

> > have made Kali into a symbol of feminine retribution as opposed to

> > the destroyer of the ego...or at least something closer to how a

> > significant number of Hindus view her.

> > >

> > > It bothers me when religious figures in general are exploited to

> > further people's goals. The same happened when Mother Teresa was

> > alive; one religious and spiritual woman of God, who loved India so

> > much, was unwittingly propaganda for xenophobic Westerners.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Jai Ma!

> > >

> > >

> > > Sincerely,

> > > Christina

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

, " prainbow61 " <paulie-

rainbow wrote: Can anyone speak accurately about Hinduism

having read some books? Popular books? Widely available cheaply

produced tracts to be picked up at a newsstand? Puja books? To

understand Hinduism do you need to study with a guru? A temple

priest? Any person who has done their own puja? Do you need to take

action to know Hinduism? Perform your own prayers? Go to temple?

 

 

Ive been thinking about this....... I remembered reading about

Social Anthropologist. One lady wrote.... to truly understand a

particular culture....you cannot do it through books or through

second or third party.... you must experience it yourself.

Experience means.... to be there with them. To live like

them.......think like them.....and try to see what they see through

them. You must be one of them... to understand them truly. In plain

word as I understand it, you must DIE and reborn as them....... to

be one with them. To Die is to remove all that mental conditioning

you carried along with you. Its like the stale or the left over

milk.... as long as there's a remnants, you will never truly feel

the purity or freshness of the new milk.

[Guest guest]

---> , " prainbow61 " <paulie-

> rainbow@> wrote: Do you need to take action to know Hinduism?

Perform your own prayers? Go to temple? "

 

I think what is most needed is love/bhakti as a basis for an open-

minded attention that is willing to release old assumptions. Then the

Guru, as an energy of Grace, can take the forms of books, temples,

devotees, physical gurus, etc as appropriate for each person.

 

" If there are ways that you personally think are authentic ways of

understanding Hinduism, are you holding your understanding

of " Neopaganism " or any other practice, to the same standard? "

 

If I " hold my understanding " of other practices and traditions (These

are tricky words here) to the same standard as I hold my

understanding of " Hinduism " , Sanatana Dharma, (pretty broad category)

I find that I am looking at everything through the glasses colored by

my own practice, experience and studies. In other words I see the

various streams of " Neo-Paganism " and everything else through Shakti-

colored glasses. So for me, nothing else holds up at all! But I am

being very careful here, to say for me it is that way. I am not

imposing my way of seeing on another, but I will share it if there is

an interst.

 

" Neopaganism " It is evolving and adapting, and having been exposed

to a living tradition of Goddess worship there is an excitement about

the images and rituals available. "

 

I agree, I find this to be true. The image and the worship, along

with the myths and stories are very popular. When I am invited to

speak, I tell a story of a deity and then relate that story to a

process that takes place inside me, then we do a short chant followed

by meditation. Many of my " pagan " friends have visited the local

temple with me and afterwards on their own. I am thrilled at the

grace in this interaction. The temple community is very welcoming to

visitors and the priests are especially helpful, despite the language

barrier. My friends have all told me that this has enriched their

own practices. Most of the folks I meet in this community are sincere

seekers and appreciative and respectful of the living tradition.

 

 

 

 

" Kshayavridhivinirmuktha " kalaalapa hreemkari

Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:59 am (PST) wrote: I would like to know the most

effective method for revering deities in temples to invoke

spirituality in our mind. "

 

LOVE/BHAKTI, open mind, open heart, Om Hreem

[Guest guest]

I hope I did not give people the idea that I was completely prejudiced against

all Neo-Pagans. I just criticized the several that were responsible for some of

the confusion and exploitation of the Eastern teachings.

 

However, as all of these posts said, Neo-Paganism is evolving, and it is also

relatively new. There was a time when all of the religions were this new, and I

do not hold that against them at all. I know of some friends who are Neo-Pagans

and they are not the ones that I was talking about, and I am sure there exists

many more like them.

 

And you are right. Some of them are learning and becoming more familiar with

the cultures that have been exploited or misunderstood in the past. Again, I

hope I did not come across as saying that all of them were responsible for the

issues I noticed. I apologize if I did. I also apologize to all of the

Neo-Pagans who might have been offended by the way I presented myself.

 

 

Jai Ma!

 

 

Sincerely,

Christina

---- deviloka <deviloka wrote:

>

> ---> , " prainbow61 " <paulie-

> > rainbow@> wrote: Do you need to take action to know Hinduism?

> Perform your own prayers? Go to temple? "

>

> I think what is most needed is love/bhakti as a basis for an open-

> minded attention that is willing to release old assumptions. Then the

> Guru, as an energy of Grace, can take the forms of books, temples,

> devotees, physical gurus, etc as appropriate for each person.

>

> " If there are ways that you personally think are authentic ways of

> understanding Hinduism, are you holding your understanding

> of " Neopaganism " or any other practice, to the same standard? "

>

> If I " hold my understanding " of other practices and traditions (These

> are tricky words here) to the same standard as I hold my

> understanding of " Hinduism " , Sanatana Dharma, (pretty broad category)

> I find that I am looking at everything through the glasses colored by

> my own practice, experience and studies. In other words I see the

> various streams of " Neo-Paganism " and everything else through Shakti-

> colored glasses. So for me, nothing else holds up at all! But I am

> being very careful here, to say for me it is that way. I am not

> imposing my way of seeing on another, but I will share it if there is

> an interst.

>

> " Neopaganism " It is evolving and adapting, and having been exposed

> to a living tradition of Goddess worship there is an excitement about

> the images and rituals available. "

>

> I agree, I find this to be true. The image and the worship, along

> with the myths and stories are very popular. When I am invited to

> speak, I tell a story of a deity and then relate that story to a

> process that takes place inside me, then we do a short chant followed

> by meditation. Many of my " pagan " friends have visited the local

> temple with me and afterwards on their own. I am thrilled at the

> grace in this interaction. The temple community is very welcoming to

> visitors and the priests are especially helpful, despite the language

> barrier. My friends have all told me that this has enriched their

> own practices. Most of the folks I meet in this community are sincere

> seekers and appreciative and respectful of the living tradition.

>

>

>

>

> " Kshayavridhivinirmuktha " kalaalapa hreemkari

> Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:59 am (PST) wrote: I would like to know the most

> effective method for revering deities in temples to invoke

> spirituality in our mind. "

>

> LOVE/BHAKTI, open mind, open heart, Om Hreem

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Ive been thinking about this....... I remembered reading about

> Social Anthropologist. One lady wrote.... to truly understand a

> particular culture....you cannot do it through books or through

> second or third party.... you must experience it yourself.

> Experience means.... to be there with them. To live like

> them.......think like them.....and try to see what they see through

> them. You must be one of them... to understand them truly. In plain

> word as I understand it, you must DIE and reborn as them....... to

> be one with them. To Die is to remove all that mental conditioning

> you carried along with you. Its like the stale or the left over

> milk.... as long as there's a remnants, you will never truly feel

> the purity or freshness of the new milk.

 

This does hold some truth to it. However, at this point, day, and age, I do not

think one can truly be of one culture or another anymore - at least not like it

used to be. Globalization is taking effect everywhere, including India - some

of it for good, some of it for bad. Everyone is going to be exposed to multiple

cultures now, and it will not truly be pure in the sense of what it was. Of

course, this could also be relative. In the past, it was very possible that the

milk got old because one province of India visited another province of India,

and now the exposure is on a bigger scale. Time, matter, and causality is

relative - at this point, I see the amount that one person is of a culture, or

not part of a culture, the same way.

 

If anything, it is probably true to say that no part of India is truly part of

another part of India in the same way that part of India is. We are speaking of

a place who likely has more cultures than the United States has, in a single

region.

 

So, what do we do about this? In the end, I personally do not think it matters.

At this day and age, we may never have the same purity of mind as we did before

- and the conditioning may be much harder and near impossible - but we can make

what we can of what we learn and attempt to reach our goals. Sri Ramakrishna

exposed himself to various cultures in his time, and even went as far as

converting to various religions in order to see if the same truth remained.

Perhaps on a more literal scale, none of us are ever going to be the same, but

it does not change the everlasting truth of existence.

 

Just because I was born in the United States does not change my desire to be a

Shaktini or to learn more about the cultures of India to the best ability that I

can (all things in consideration). A little bit of Catholicism may still be in

me (at least enough for me to keep a picture of the Virgin Mary around), but

that is just one face of the many faces of the everlasting truth. I do not feel

any less connected from Devi than anyone else in my current state of awareness

(however big or small it is). It may mean that I may only be able to learn a

few words of Sanskrit in my life time, or never be fluent in Tamil or Hindi

(only time will tell), or may never be able to understand the pantheon that one

of the villages in India reveres, but it makes no difference on how I approach

my desire to be spiritually fulfilled and how I approach my desire to learn

about another set of beliefs that I feel more at home with than the culture I

was born in. For every Shakta or Hindu who might be willing to teach me their

ways, there is probably another who would rather me still be a Catholic, no

matter how much it would contradict my personal beliefs; likewise, for every

Catholic who accepts me, there is likely another who now condemns me to the

deepest level of Hell. Only I can make these concerns obstacles toward my own

spiritual attainment.

 

Maybe I misunderstood what has been said, and if I have, I would not mind

clarification at all. I just am speaking my mind on these matters.

 

Jai Ma!

 

Sincerely,

Christina

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

I have wanted mostly for you to address the important issues that you raised

generally in a

more specific manner. To become offended at the tone of a generality is to

overlook the

possibility for communication on more specific issues, more easily addressed by

all sides

and more likely to lead to understanding.

 

To paint " neopagans " or " wiccans " with a broad brush and without citing any

specific

source in a discouraging tone isn't really fair, but yet the issues that would

lead to that

may be something we could discuss and come to an understanding. Perhaps even

agreement.

 

You and I share the belief that all religions were at one point " young " or " new "

and that

does not detract from their intricacy or usefulness, nor from their beauty or

the devotion

of their followers.

 

I engage in the Shakti tradition because I recognize my Goddess in it. Since She

has

existed from the beginning in all times and all places, She appears in different

cultures in

different ways.

 

I see Her in the Devi Mahatmaya, just as I see Her in the praise songs of

Enheduanna of

ancient Sumer, I see Her in the images of the Many Breasted Artemis. I hear her

in the

poems of Sappho addressed to Aphrodite and the devotion of the Irish to Brigit,

now a

" saint " once a Goddess.

 

What I have here in Shaktiism is a mature and living Goddess tradition,

something that I

did not have the privilege of knowing in my upbringing. It is a deepening and

challenging

part of my spiritual life.

 

I just don't know how to sort myself out from the " Neopagans " that have so

disgusted you.

And I'm not entirely sure that I should.

 

Blessings,

 

pr

 

, <IlluminatedCelestial wrote:

>

> I hope I did not give people the idea that I was completely prejudiced against

all Neo-

Pagans. I just criticized the several that were responsible for some of the

confusion and

exploitation of the Eastern teachings.

>

> However, as all of these posts said, Neo-Paganism is evolving, and it is also

relatively

new. There was a time when all of the religions were this new, and I do not

hold that

against them at all. I know of some friends who are Neo-Pagans and they are not

the

ones that I was talking about, and I am sure there exists many more like them.

>

> And you are right. Some of them are learning and becoming more familiar with

the

cultures that have been exploited or misunderstood in the past. Again, I hope I

did not

come across as saying that all of them were responsible for the issues I

noticed. I

apologize if I did. I also apologize to all of the Neo-Pagans who might have

been

offended by the way I presented myself.

>

>

> Jai Ma!

>

>

> Sincerely,

> Christina

> ---- deviloka <deviloka wrote:

> >

> > ---> , " prainbow61 " <paulie-

> > > rainbow@> wrote: Do you need to take action to know Hinduism?

> > Perform your own prayers? Go to temple? "

> >

> > I think what is most needed is love/bhakti as a basis for an open-

> > minded attention that is willing to release old assumptions. Then the

> > Guru, as an energy of Grace, can take the forms of books, temples,

> > devotees, physical gurus, etc as appropriate for each person.

> >

> > " If there are ways that you personally think are authentic ways of

> > understanding Hinduism, are you holding your understanding

> > of " Neopaganism " or any other practice, to the same standard? "

> >

> > If I " hold my understanding " of other practices and traditions (These

> > are tricky words here) to the same standard as I hold my

> > understanding of " Hinduism " , Sanatana Dharma, (pretty broad category)

> > I find that I am looking at everything through the glasses colored by

> > my own practice, experience and studies. In other words I see the

> > various streams of " Neo-Paganism " and everything else through Shakti-

> > colored glasses. So for me, nothing else holds up at all! But I am

> > being very careful here, to say for me it is that way. I am not

> > imposing my way of seeing on another, but I will share it if there is

> > an interst.

> >

> > " Neopaganism " It is evolving and adapting, and having been exposed

> > to a living tradition of Goddess worship there is an excitement about

> > the images and rituals available. "

> >

> > I agree, I find this to be true. The image and the worship, along

> > with the myths and stories are very popular. When I am invited to

> > speak, I tell a story of a deity and then relate that story to a

> > process that takes place inside me, then we do a short chant followed

> > by meditation. Many of my " pagan " friends have visited the local

> > temple with me and afterwards on their own. I am thrilled at the

> > grace in this interaction. The temple community is very welcoming to

> > visitors and the priests are especially helpful, despite the language

> > barrier. My friends have all told me that this has enriched their

> > own practices. Most of the folks I meet in this community are sincere

> > seekers and appreciative and respectful of the living tradition.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > " Kshayavridhivinirmuktha " kalaalapa hreemkari

> > Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:59 am (PST) wrote: I would like to know the most

> > effective method for revering deities in temples to invoke

> > spirituality in our mind. "

> >

> > LOVE/BHAKTI, open mind, open heart, Om Hreem

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>