Guest guest Posted May 3, 2008 Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 >The Nirayana, Sidereal system of calendar measure espoused by David >Frawley is unreliable, confusing and contradicts the verses in the >Rig Veda that describe " One Wheel of three-hundred and sixty spokes, >firmly riveted that shake not in the least (8.) " As a result of this >confusion, almost the entire Hindu Samaj celebrates the most >important Hindu festival, the Makar Sankranti or Winter Solstice on >14 January, some 23 days after the actual Winter Solstice. How can >this possibly be? The Winter Solstice - Shortest Day of the Year is >not a matter of interpretation. It is an unmistakable event that >occurs every year on 21 December with the change of the Sun's >direction from the Lower Hemisphere (Daksinayana) to the Upper >Hemisphere (Uttarayana) and into the sign Capricorn, India's >zodiacal ruler. Is it true that Dec. 21 is the shortest day? i thought due to precession of the equinoxes, that it moved? This looks like an attack on the validity of the sidereal zodiac, but i don't know enough to tell whether the signs moving via precession has anything to do with the _date_ of the shortest day. Anyone know? Frawley is a Vedic astrologer, i do know... don't always agree with him but tend to the idea that he is right on this one. >Yet most of the Hindu community, unaware of their error, continues >to celebrate the Makar Sankranti 23 days after the actual Solstice, >and Capricorn gateway, thereby following the constellations rather >than the tropical/seasonal UNCHANGING ecliptic zodiac. Few may admit >it, but it is precisely this kind of fuzzy un-Vedic calendar measure >that sets the faithful on a path of adharma and prevents both >individual and nation from rising to fulfill their mission. -- Max Dashu Suppressed Histories Archives http://www.suppressedhistories.net New: Women's Power DVD http://www.suppressedhistories.net/womenspowerdvd.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2008 Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 At least in Kerala we have " drik siddha " - verified by sight(observation) - calender where the changes due to precession of equinoxes and other precessions are taken into account. Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote: >The Nirayana, Sidereal system of calendar measure espoused by David >Frawley is unreliable, confusing and contradicts the verses in the >Rig Veda that describe " One Wheel of three-hundred and sixty spokes, >firmly riveted that shake not in the least (8.) " As a result of this >confusion, almost the entire Hindu Samaj celebrates the most >important Hindu festival, the Makar Sankranti or Winter Solstice on >14 January, some 23 days after the actual Winter Solstice. How can >this possibly be? The Winter Solstice - Shortest Day of the Year is >not a matter of interpretation. It is an unmistakable event that >occurs every year on 21 December with the change of the Sun's >direction from the Lower Hemisphere (Daksinayana) to the Upper >Hemisphere (Uttarayana) and into the sign Capricorn, India's >zodiacal ruler. Is it true that Dec. 21 is the shortest day? i thought due to precession of the equinoxes, that it moved? This looks like an attack on the validity of the sidereal zodiac, but i don't know enough to tell whether the signs moving via precession has anything to do with the _date_ of the shortest day. Anyone know? Frawley is a Vedic astrologer, i do know... don't always agree with him but tend to the idea that he is right on this one. >Yet most of the Hindu community, unaware of their error, continues >to celebrate the Makar Sankranti 23 days after the actual Solstice, >and Capricorn gateway, thereby following the constellations rather >than the tropical/seasonal UNCHANGING ecliptic zodiac. Few may admit >it, but it is precisely this kind of fuzzy un-Vedic calendar measure >that sets the faithful on a path of adharma and prevents both >individual and nation from rising to fulfill their mission. -- Max Dashu Suppressed Histories Archives http://www.suppressedhistories.net New: Women's Power DVD http://www.suppressedhistories.net/womenspowerdvd.html Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2008 Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 One must also not forget the meanings of words NIRAYANA means - without ayana Saayana is opposite of nirayana - with ayana it follows that the learned of yore was verymuch aware of the precession and they took into account the ayanamsa in their calculations. So why two calenders and why nirayana and saayana? there are uses in astrology. Further there are two calculations for dasa or period of planets. Chaandramaanam and sauramaanam. In chaandramaanam year is 360 days based on moom phases. In sauramaanam the calculation is based on year of 365.25.... days. In Saura siddhanta this aspect is clearly dealt with. So we poor yivil yindoos seem to have " accidentally " stumbled upon the great truth, DISCOVERED by the great white Massas, a bit earlier. Just a matter of a few millinia. Nothing substantial. In Prasnamarga it is said " Pancha siddhantakovida oohaapohapatur siddha mantro hi jaanaati jaatakam " - he who is well versed in the 5 thories of astronomy like Romesha siddhanta, pulisha siddhanta etc. who is practical in thinking and is adept in a mantra ALONE ca know a horoscope. This implies that one must have sent a substantial part of their life in the study of astronomy - both practical and theoretical; calm collected and rational and has siddhi in a mantra (thereby implying development of intution) alone is entitled to call himself an astrologer. Contrast this with the present day astrologers who read a few books and pretend to be ash tro lo ger and how many can identify the planets in the sky? Sorry if I am unduely offensive. sankara menon <kochu1tz wrote: At least in Kerala we have " drik siddha " - verified by sight(observation) - calender where the changes due to precession of equinoxes and other precessions are taken into account. Others in the north I think follow " parahita " - that others prefer Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote: >The Nirayana, Sidereal system of calendar measure espoused by David >Frawley is unreliable, confusing and contradicts the verses in the >Rig Veda that describe " One Wheel of three-hundred and sixty spokes, >firmly riveted that shake not in the least (8.) " As a result of this >confusion, almost the entire Hindu Samaj celebrates the most >important Hindu festival, the Makar Sankranti or Winter Solstice on >14 January, some 23 days after the actual Winter Solstice. How can >this possibly be? The Winter Solstice - Shortest Day of the Year is >not a matter of interpretation. It is an unmistakable event that >occurs every year on 21 December with the change of the Sun's >direction from the Lower Hemisphere (Daksinayana) to the Upper >Hemisphere (Uttarayana) and into the sign Capricorn, India's >zodiacal ruler. Is it true that Dec. 21 is the shortest day? i thought due to precession of the equinoxes, that it moved? This looks like an attack on the validity of the sidereal zodiac, but i don't know enough to tell whether the signs moving via precession has anything to do with the _date_ of the shortest day. Anyone know? Frawley is a Vedic astrologer, i do know... don't always agree with him but tend to the idea that he is right on this one. >Yet most of the Hindu community, unaware of their error, continues >to celebrate the Makar Sankranti 23 days after the actual Solstice, >and Capricorn gateway, thereby following the constellations rather >than the tropical/seasonal UNCHANGING ecliptic zodiac. Few may admit >it, but it is precisely this kind of fuzzy un-Vedic calendar measure >that sets the faithful on a path of adharma and prevents both >individual and nation from rising to fulfill their mission. -- Max Dashu Suppressed Histories Archives http://www.suppressedhistories.net New: Women's Power DVD http://www.suppressedhistories.net/womenspowerdvd.html Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2008 Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 >So we poor yivil yindoos seem to have " accidentally " stumbled upon >the great truth, DISCOVERED by the great white Massas, a bit >earlier. Just a matter of a few millinia. Nothing substantial. Like the Maya, another case more advanced than their invaders. I've read that their calendar year was more accurate than the socalled Western one up til the 20th century. And of course their use of zero was far ahead too. Interestingly the onset date for the great baktun cycle we are about to close in 4 years is pretty close to the one i've seen given for death of Krishna and onset of Kali Yuga, within a century anyway. >Sorry if I am unduely offensive. Not at all. Max Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2008 Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 Thank you Max. Oh!! i may add that Pope grigorious sent 4 jesuit priests to Kerala to learn about calender keeping and their notes were sent to, among others, Newton who, immediatly thereafter BLOOMED into a great inventor and scientist Rawthah funnhy cohinsidense wot? Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote: >So we poor yivil yindoos seem to have " accidentally " stumbled upon >the great truth, DISCOVERED by the great white Massas, a bit >earlier. Just a matter of a few millinia. Nothing substantial. Like the Maya, another case more advanced than their invaders. I've read that their calendar year was more accurate than the socalled Western one up til the 20th century. And of course their use of zero was far ahead too. Interestingly the onset date for the great baktun cycle we are about to close in 4 years is pretty close to the one i've seen given for death of Krishna and onset of Kali Yuga, within a century anyway. >Sorry if I am unduely offensive. Not at all. Max Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2008 Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 Namaste, Interesting discussion. If I may, I'd like to jump into the middle of the yiddle yindoos and mention that the 'great white masses' have in the past been more diverse amongst themselves and that recent " innovations " have served to unify us all at the cost of ancient wisdom. So much so that a great deal of current knowledge of our celestial relations is garnered indoors. Obviously this is the wrong location for such study. Yes, Max, the Solstices and the Equinoxes do move as you suspect. They shift on our staid calendar from dates ranges around 21-23. While this remains an item of trivia most of the time, having little effect on anyone except calendar note makers and radio hosts, it does affect all of western Christendom on Easter (formerly known as the Pagan holiday Ostara) which is celebrated on " The first Sunday after the First Full Moon after the Vernal Equinox. " No ancient Paganism about that, eh? Pass me a colored egg, would you, I'll need a little sustenance to continue. This leads to a pet peeve of mine, which is beginnings and endings... not of the life of the Christian lord, but of the seasons. When Shakespeare wrote " A MidSummer Night's Dream " it was back in a time when we knew more about the seasons and why they were named. Indeed, his hapless characters were wandering around that enchanted wood during the 3rd week of June, as everyone watching was sure to understand. Even in the 19th century carolers knew that that celebration at the end of December had another name: In the bleak midwinter, frost wind made moan, Earth stood hard as iron, water like a stone; Snow had fallen, snow on snow, snow on snow, In the bleak midwinter, long ago. Our God, heaven cannot hold him, nor earth sustain; Heaven and earth shall flee away when he comes to reign. In the bleak midwinter a stable place sufficed The Lord God Almighty, Jesus Christ. Summer does NOT begin in the 3rd week of June. The flowering season that north west Europeans enjoy begins on that festival of flowers: May day! (this week!). The mother that we celebrate this month with flowery scents and actual flowers is the One who produces them. By the 3rd week of June we are well on our way to the feasts of the harvest that begin on August 1. In fact, we are half way there. Break open that dusty playbook and call for the faeries. You will be celebrating MidSummer. By the 3rd week of September, if we have abandoned the glaring aisles of the supermarket and are caressing local produce at a farmers market, we all know that we are in the middle of the harvest season. Here in Colorado the time for peaches has passed and soon only the gourds and hard squashes will remain, like the pumpkins which will be selected by our little ones for decorating into grotesqueries to frighten off the spirit of the end of life which shows up.... on the hallowed eve... the beginning of the winter, the quiet season. By the time we are mixing up spiced drinks to warm our toes and gathering our family around us to entreat back the sun it is the end of December, and yet, even with the worst storms yet to buffet us, it is the middle of winter or MidWinter as it was once called. When the first crocuses peak their heads above the snow and people in Pennsylvania are abusing a woodchuck we are all looking for a sign that it is indeed: the very beginning of Spring. A month and a half later, established plants and trees are popping up, leafing out and starting to tempt us to plant annual flowers. But this is only mid-Spring. Ignore the silk blooms on the hats in the Easter parade and wait until the beginning of Summer (this week!) to plant all but your hardy pansies. In our modern world we have lost a lot of touch with the old ways. I confess a certain ignorance of the respected and ancient Vedic calendar system, but I am sure that it was developed outdoors and if it appears to be applied incorrectly now, it is because the user, like a radio host, is stuck indoors and is proclaiming the beginning of Summer in the middle of June from within a windowless room, while the rest of us can walk through the park and enjoy the blooms that have been generous with us continuously since May. One last thing, I was taught that the lunar and solar calendars line up with each other every 19 years and that this is called something special... I thought it was " great year " but I could be mistaken. Thank you for your patience with my rattling on. I shall now return to my Hindu studies... or maybe I'll go outside and enjoy my garden. pr , sankara menon <kochu1tz wrote: > > Thank you Max. > Oh!! i may add that Pope grigorious sent 4 jesuit priests to Kerala to learn about calender keeping and their notes were sent to, among others, Newton who, immediatly thereafter BLOOMED into a great inventor and scientist > > Rawthah funnhy cohinsidense wot? > > Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote: > >So we poor yivil yindoos seem to have " accidentally " stumbled upon > >the great truth, DISCOVERED by the great white Massas, a bit > >earlier. Just a matter of a few millinia. Nothing substantial. > > Like the Maya, another case more advanced than their invaders. I've > read that their calendar year was more accurate than the socalled > Western one up til the 20th century. And of course their use of zero > was far ahead too. > > Interestingly the onset date for the great baktun cycle we are about > to close in 4 years is pretty close to the one i've seen given for > death of Krishna and onset of Kali Yuga, within a century anyway. > > >Sorry if I am unduely offensive. > > Not at all. > > Max > > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2008 Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 >the 'great white masses' have in the past been more diverse amongst >themselves and that recent " innovations " have served to unify us all >at the cost of ancient wisdom. Or to corrupt us... ;-) At any rate, as a Pagan i don't identify with the dominant " Western " system either, and am very much in favor of clearing away the veils over the authentic ancient wisdom, of Europe and anywhere else it has been obscured. >Yes, Max, the Solstices and the Equinoxes do move as you suspect. >They shift on our staid calendar from dates ranges around 21-23. Thanks, i know about this, and often the 20th is involved too. My question was about whether the tropical or sidereal system is more accurate in pinpointing the shortest day, or rather, if the shortest day has moved. I know the sidereal system corresponds correctly with the constellations of the zodiac, and am asking if the tropical corresponds correctly with the dates of equinoxes and solstices, that is, the shortest, longest, and equal-length days of the year. I seem to recall a western astrologer saying something like that, at any rate. hope you had a blessed Bealtaine.. Max -- Max Dashu Art in Goddess Reverence http://www.maxdashu.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2008 Report Share Posted May 4, 2008 Thanks, Max. And excuse my blithering hiccup. I do love the way the seasons flow. I've not been able to connect to the Vedic system in quite the same way. I can totally connect to the concepts that surround the Devi, the devotion, the destruction of fear and evil etc etc. Other than Holi I haven't found the same seasonal procession in the Hindu holidays and calendar, though, admittedly that hasn't been my focus. Beltane has been lovely here. The fruit trees and lilacs that dot the city are in full bloom. Hope yours was lovely as well. namaste, pr , Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote: > > >the 'great white masses' have in the past been more diverse amongst > >themselves and that recent " innovations " have served to unify us all > >at the cost of ancient wisdom. > > Or to corrupt us... ;-) At any rate, as a Pagan i don't identify with > the dominant " Western " system either, and am very much in favor of > clearing away the veils over the authentic ancient wisdom, of Europe > and anywhere else it has been obscured. > > >Yes, Max, the Solstices and the Equinoxes do move as you suspect. > >They shift on our staid calendar from dates ranges around 21-23. > > Thanks, i know about this, and often the 20th is involved too. My > question was about whether the tropical or sidereal system is more > accurate in pinpointing the shortest day, or rather, if the shortest > day has moved. I know the sidereal system corresponds correctly with > the constellations of the zodiac, and am asking if the tropical > corresponds correctly with the dates of equinoxes and solstices, that > is, the shortest, longest, and equal-length days of the year. I seem > to recall a western astrologer saying something like that, at any > rate. > > hope you had a blessed Bealtaine.. > > Max > -- > Max Dashu > > Art in Goddess Reverence > http://www.maxdashu.net > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2008 Report Share Posted May 5, 2008 Not having lived in India, i have no clue about how the holidays relate to the seasonal flow! >I've not been able to connect to the Vedic system in quite the same way. Well it is quite complex. I can only follow the outlines, but have found it meaningful and useful in sadhana. It helps to know when you are in a Saturn period, or whatever planet. Some years back i started getting into Vedic astrology and have found astounding accuracy, especially in tracking what is happening with the dashas and bhuktis (planetary periods and subperiods in a personal horoscope. Sometimes it comes down to the day an new period enters, very pronounced. peace, Max -- Max Dashu Art in Goddess Reverence http://www.maxdashu.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2008 Report Share Posted May 5, 2008 Interesting! So is that something you " have done " as with astrology here, or is it something you can figure out for yourself? I know that Acharyaji took our names and birthdates to come up with the right day for our shaadi. But I didn't know what was involved. namaste, pr , Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote: > > Not having lived in India, i have no clue about how the holidays > relate to the seasonal flow! > > >I've not been able to connect to the Vedic system in quite the same way. > > Well it is quite complex. I can only follow the outlines, but have > found it meaningful and useful in sadhana. It helps to know when you > are in a Saturn period, or whatever planet. > > Some years back i started getting into Vedic astrology and have found > astounding accuracy, especially in tracking what is happening with > the dashas and bhuktis (planetary periods and subperiods in a > personal horoscope. Sometimes it comes down to the day an new period > enters, very pronounced. > > peace, > Max > > -- > Max Dashu > > Art in Goddess Reverence > http://www.maxdashu.net > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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