demigods a question.

[Guest guest]

Namaste and hello.

 

I believe this is the first topic that I've started so I'm a bit nervous.

I'm an American who is very drawn to the Shakti path but am still

extremely new and awkward.

 

Just over a year ago, out of a feeling of need for a place of worship

and of trying to

meet up with at least a few people with a similar mindset on

spirituality as I had, I looked for a temple to visit.

 

It turned out that the nearest temple was an ISKCON temple. While I

did not consider myself to be quite the follower of Lord Krishna...I

still had great respect for him and Radha. I began to enjoy my stay at

the temple and met many wonderful people.

 

I still go there fairly regularly as it's a beautiful and peaceful place.

 

Still though, while I felt like there was a connection there...I still

had a strange feeling about some things. Just little

things that nag at me.

 

Probably the biggest thing that comes to mind is (and this is the

topic I wanted to bring up for a discussion): Today I went for the

temple's celebration of Diwali and Goverdhan Puja.

Well, they have lectures on Sundays and the lecturer today brought up

the topic of " demigods " .

He said they only believe in one God and alluded to demi-gods being

something like the aliens you hear about coming down in UFO's. He said

praying to them was like bribing a government official and that one

should only pray to Krishna.

 

I felt a little odd about this and was wondering what the Shakti side

of the fence felt about this type of thing.

This in no way is meant to be offensive to ISKCON or any group of

Vaishnavas. Even if I do not follow their path, they have my

respect...but still, I would be very

interested in some discussion on this topic.

[Guest guest]

Greetings Ashley,

It has been my sad experience that we humans as a group either grasp

individually at a singular " truth " or ally ourselves to groups that do so. This

attitude of course leads to " this is right or correct and that is wrong " kind of

perspective on the world and other's beliefs.

 

My personal contact with ISKCON in the 60's and 70's was bittersweet, as I

initially learned Bhakti or devotional worship of diety through them but

simultaneously felt that they were in too many ways to me reminiscent of the

fundamentalist christian church of my childhood. As I was taught, Krishna was

superior to all other dieties of the Hindu pantheon. Of course, all traditions

at the least seem to imply that their diety is somehow superior. The stories of

Shaivite source that Brahma and Vishnu were both unable to reach the top of a

pillar of fire that was Shiva; the Shakta story that Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva

were unable to subdue a powerful demon and collaborated to bring forth Shakti

(various groups name her as Kali, Lalita or Durga) which seems to imply that

Shakti is superior in power to the Trimurti.

 

All of the Gods (to me) are aspects of Brahman-that reality beyond most human

ability to comprehend. We thus find ourselves drawn to the Gods/Goddesses which

sing to our soul. Perhaps when we grow enough we can see that (as some temples

depict) Shiva IS Vishnu, and Shakti is one with Shiva.

 

Though Shakti and particularly as Lalita Tripurasundari is MY Ishta Devata, I

can also love and revere Krishna, Saraswati, Shiva and Durga, for they are ALL

her and SHE is all of them.

 

My two rupees,

Namaste

Cliff

-

Ashley

Sunday, October 26, 2008 7:25 PM

" demigods " a question.

 

 

Namaste and hello.

 

I believe this is the first topic that I've started so I'm a bit nervous.

I'm an American who is very drawn to the Shakti path but am still

extremely new and awkward.

 

Just over a year ago, out of a feeling of need for a place of worship

and of trying to

meet up with at least a few people with a similar mindset on

spirituality as I had, I looked for a temple to visit.

 

It turned out that the nearest temple was an ISKCON temple. While I

did not consider myself to be quite the follower of Lord Krishna...I

still had great respect for him and Radha. I began to enjoy my stay at

the temple and met many wonderful people.

 

I still go there fairly regularly as it's a beautiful and peaceful place.

 

Still though, while I felt like there was a connection there...I still

had a strange feeling about some things. Just little

things that nag at me.

 

Probably the biggest thing that comes to mind is (and this is the

topic I wanted to bring up for a discussion): Today I went for the

temple's celebration of Diwali and Goverdhan Puja.

Well, they have lectures on Sundays and the lecturer today brought up

the topic of " demigods " .

He said they only believe in one God and alluded to demi-gods being

something like the aliens you hear about coming down in UFO's. He said

praying to them was like bribing a government official and that one

should only pray to Krishna.

 

I felt a little odd about this and was wondering what the Shakti side

of the fence felt about this type of thing.

This in no way is meant to be offensive to ISKCON or any group of

Vaishnavas. Even if I do not follow their path, they have my

respect...but still, I would be very

interested in some discussion on this topic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

As a Westener myself I am quite familiar with ISKCon, as it's by far the

largest Sanatana Dharma organisation in Europe. To put it simply, the

teaching of Shrila Prabhupada, who was the representative of a gaudiya

vaishnava parampara, is sectarian. Gaudiya vaishnava, following the

Bhagavad-gita literally, believe Krishna (in his personal form of

Bhagavan) to be the Supreme God, beyond Brahman itself (here seen as the

effulgence of Krishna). Hence, they call other devaah 'demigods' and

believe one should focus his devotion on Krishna alone to attain bhakti.

Nothing wrong with all this: many interpretations of God are possible

following Scripture. ISKConites, however, are *not* shaktas, and most tend

to be quite exclusivist/preachy (in my experience).

 

Best regards,

 

Sergio

 

> Namaste and hello.

>

> I believe this is the first topic that I've started so I'm a bit nervous.

> I'm an American who is very drawn to the Shakti path but am still

> extremely new and awkward.

>

> Just over a year ago, out of a feeling of need for a place of worship

> and of trying to

> meet up with at least a few people with a similar mindset on

> spirituality as I had, I looked for a temple to visit.

>

> It turned out that the nearest temple was an ISKCON temple. While I

> did not consider myself to be quite the follower of Lord Krishna...I

> still had great respect for him and Radha. I began to enjoy my stay at

> the temple and met many wonderful people.

>

> I still go there fairly regularly as it's a beautiful and peaceful place.

>

> Still though, while I felt like there was a connection there...I still

> had a strange feeling about some things. Just little

> things that nag at me.

>

> Probably the biggest thing that comes to mind is (and this is the

> topic I wanted to bring up for a discussion): Today I went for the

> temple's celebration of Diwali and Goverdhan Puja.

> Well, they have lectures on Sundays and the lecturer today brought up

> the topic of " demigods " .

> He said they only believe in one God and alluded to demi-gods being

> something like the aliens you hear about coming down in UFO's. He said

> praying to them was like bribing a government official and that one

> should only pray to Krishna.

>

> I felt a little odd about this and was wondering what the Shakti side

> of the fence felt about this type of thing.

> This in no way is meant to be offensive to ISKCON or any group of

> Vaishnavas. Even if I do not follow their path, they have my

> respect...but still, I would be very

> interested in some discussion on this topic.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Here I am pasting one article posted by a ISKcON devotee to one of

the forum,interesting to read it.Mind you,these are HIS experences

and not mine,I repeat this is a copy paste post of one of the

devotee.

---------------------

I am a ffice:smarttags " />Krishna bhakta , And I want to share my

spiritual experience with you. What follows is a true life story of

mine.

 

It is very true that Lord Siva is a grand Guru for all – even to

Vaishnavas.- and a Siva bhakta is Siva himself and should be treated

as our Guru. I did not know this before as I was stupid Bhakta. But

my life experience made me realize this.

 

I have been a Krishna bhakta since my child hood and wanted to see

Krishna directly. In this craving I went to ISKCON and got initiated

to the Hare Krishna Mahamantra. In spite of chanting it for 32 lakhs

of times (As many lakhs as there are letters in the mahamantra) I

did not see Krishna. But Krishna was kind enough to appear in my

dream and advised me to find a Siddha guru and get initiated - to

succeed in the mantra sdadana.

 

I did not know where to find a Siddha guru when even ISKCON, is not

qualified to be a place of siddhas of the mantra. Then a pious man

advised that Lord Siva is the guru for all mantras. Then I fasted

and prayed to Lord Siva on a Sivaratri, to be my guru. Then a few

days latter a Siva monk from Himalaya who was on his way back to

Himalaya after his visit of Kumbamela at Triambakeswar landed to my

house asking for a days stay. I gladly offered him my house. But I

was arrogant enough to preach him that Krishna bhakti is supreme and

he should follow that path, leaving his Siva asceticism. He

appreciated me for my deep Krishna bhakti . When he was leaving

offered me a small Krishna Idol saying that he cannot take care of

Krishna as I could, and hence from now onwards I should take care of

Krishna, and initiated me with a one syllable Krishna mantra , and

the method of ritualistic worship of the Krishna idol and left.

 

When I started to meditate on the mantra silently with closed eyes

almost with in a few minutes Krishna appeared in my heart very clear

and very charming. Then he told me to take care of him in the

external world and jumped out of my heart to the Idol. When I opened

my eyes I found real Krishna in front of me. Though I got jittered

initially that I am going mad or that the monk has done some black

magic, Krishna cleared all that doubt and I knew in due course it is

a genuine spiritual vision.

 

I asked Krishna why he dint come before when I was chanted so much

of Mahamantra. Krishna told me that the mantra was not a

siddhamantra – I did not get it from a siddha guru. Now the mantra I

am meditating came from a Siddha guru that it bears fruits

immediately. I asked him how come that a Siva monk is a siddha guru

of a Krishna mantra, and a guru from Krishna bhakti tradition like

ISKCON itself is not a Siddha guru. Krishna told me that Lord Siva

is the guru for all the Vidyas and initiated by him all the mantras

will bear fruit. All vidyas are his, including Vaishnava vidyas and

with out his grace no vidya will bear fruit. Krishna declared that A

Siva guru is a Siddha guru .He advised me to treat the Siva guru are

Siva himself and should not be treated as ordinary human being. I

was ashamed of my arrogance that I ventured to teach and preach

Krishna bhakti to Lord Siva when in actuality I am a worm in

compared to Him, who in fact magnanimously came to full fill my

desire of giving me Krishna darsana. . I realized how stupid I was.

Now I am more metrue. While I strill remain a strong Krishna

bhakta , I treat all Siva bhaktas as Siva's aspects and as my gurus

as per Krishna's own advice and I should admit I have only gained

tremendous spiritual virtue.

-----------------end of copy paste---------------

 

, " Ashley " <herjazz wrote:

>

> Namaste and hello.

>

> I believe this is the first topic that I've started so I'm a bit

nervous.

> I'm an American who is very drawn to the Shakti path but am still

> extremely new and awkward.

>

> Just over a year ago, out of a feeling of need for a place of

worship

> and of trying to

> meet up with at least a few people with a similar mindset on

> spirituality as I had, I looked for a temple to visit.

>

> It turned out that the nearest temple was an ISKCON temple. While I

> did not consider myself to be quite the follower of Lord

Krishna...I

> still had great respect for him and Radha. I began to enjoy my

stay at

> the temple and met many wonderful people.

>

> I still go there fairly regularly as it's a beautiful and peaceful

place.

>

> Still though, while I felt like there was a connection there...I

still

> had a strange feeling about some things. Just little

> things that nag at me.

>

> Probably the biggest thing that comes to mind is (and this is the

> topic I wanted to bring up for a discussion): Today I went for the

> temple's celebration of Diwali and Goverdhan Puja.

> Well, they have lectures on Sundays and the lecturer today brought

up

> the topic of " demigods " .

> He said they only believe in one God and alluded to demi-gods being

> something like the aliens you hear about coming down in UFO's. He

said

> praying to them was like bribing a government official and that one

> should only pray to Krishna.

>

> I felt a little odd about this and was wondering what the Shakti

side

> of the fence felt about this type of thing.

> This in no way is meant to be offensive to ISKCON or any group of

> Vaishnavas. Even if I do not follow their path, they have my

> respect...but still, I would be very

> interested in some discussion on this topic.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Ashley-

 

I'm actually saddened by hearing of your experience. I'm a born and

raised Hindu, and needless to say, very proud to have been born into

one of THE most tolerant religions in the world. Hindus have always

prided themselves on their open minds, and even if one disagrees with

the method of practicing (e.g, Shakta vs. Shaivites), one accepts the

other person's beliefs. I think this is one of the reasons that

Hinduism still stands strong in spite of centuries of violent

invasions into India.

 

That said, I've personally noticed that Krishna followers tend to be

a bit... different, in how they worship. I know this is going to

sound extremely harsh, but there's almost a cult-ish vibe to them. I

am speaking from personal experience- in college, I met a bunch of

Krishna followers, and aside from having a constant manic glare in

their eyes, they told me I shouldn't listen to rock music because it

corrupts your soul. So, the person who made the analogy between

fundamentalist Christians and Krishna followers, you're right on.

 

I don't know why this is. I have noticed that a lot of Krishna

followers such as the ones you describe tend to be non-Indian

Westerners. Some of these people might have been 'looking' for the

right religion, and without having been born into Hinduism and a

Hindu community, may not understand that our religion is supposed to

promote open-mindedness. I am generalizing a bit, here of course. Not

all Krishna followers are like this, and of course, many non-Indian

Westerners who choose to follow Hinduism are very knowledgeable about

our religion- perhaps more so than us Indians, in some cases!

 

It's up to you of course, but I personally bolt whenever I hear words

such as the ones you described about 'demigods.' On a different note,

I consider myself very lucky to live ten minutes down the road from

one of the most beautiful (and only?) Durga Mandirs in the tri-state

area.

 

Best,

 

Salma

 

 

, " Ashley " <herjazz wrote:

>

> Namaste and hello.

>

> I believe this is the first topic that I've started so I'm a bit

nervous.

> I'm an American who is very drawn to the Shakti path but am still

> extremely new and awkward.

>

> Just over a year ago, out of a feeling of need for a place of

worship

> and of trying to

> meet up with at least a few people with a similar mindset on

> spirituality as I had, I looked for a temple to visit.

>

> It turned out that the nearest temple was an ISKCON temple. While I

> did not consider myself to be quite the follower of Lord Krishna...I

> still had great respect for him and Radha. I began to enjoy my stay

at

> the temple and met many wonderful people.

>

> I still go there fairly regularly as it's a beautiful and peaceful

place.

>

> Still though, while I felt like there was a connection there...I

still

> had a strange feeling about some things. Just little

> things that nag at me.

>

> Probably the biggest thing that comes to mind is (and this is the

> topic I wanted to bring up for a discussion): Today I went for the

> temple's celebration of Diwali and Goverdhan Puja.

> Well, they have lectures on Sundays and the lecturer today brought

up

> the topic of " demigods " .

> He said they only believe in one God and alluded to demi-gods being

> something like the aliens you hear about coming down in UFO's. He

said

> praying to them was like bribing a government official and that one

> should only pray to Krishna.

>

> I felt a little odd about this and was wondering what the Shakti

side

> of the fence felt about this type of thing.

> This in no way is meant to be offensive to ISKCON or any group of

> Vaishnavas. Even if I do not follow their path, they have my

> respect...but still, I would be very

> interested in some discussion on this topic.

>

[Guest guest]

, " Ashley " <herjazz wrote:

>

>

>

> hi,

 

i too am put off by those who claim that their god is

the only true god!

perhaps the best thing would be to ignore them!

[Guest guest]

, " Cliff " <numinae wrote:

>

> As I was taught, [by ISKCON] Krishna was superior to

> all other dieties of the Hindu pantheon.

> Of course, all traditions at the least seem to

> imply that their diety is somehow superior.

 

And so He or She *is*, for *those devotees*.

That path and that deity is best for *them*.

 

> Though Shakti and particularly as Lalita

> Tripurasundari is MY Ishta Devata, I can also

> love and revere Krishna, Saraswati, Shiva and

> Durga, for they are ALL her and SHE is all of them.

 

yes. :-)

It's really about our own relationship with the

divine, not what those other people may be saying or

doing or thinking.

 

(My two rupees. Your mileage may vary.)

[Guest guest]

Several have asked, why we need to invoke the Gods and Goddesses?

 

I would like to share my own viewpoint on this subject.

 

The siddhas/yogis tell us that the gods/goddesses ( " demigods " ) are aspects of

the One God, One Source, One Spirit -

whatever you choose to call the ONE. But there exists other realities

that many of us have no clue about and some of us are led to distorted views. Be

very clear that Shiva and Shakti are the same aspect of the ONE supreme. Its is

us who have created and continue to fight over beyond separable existence of

divine.

 

Just as there are 6 billion people all around us, we are all still ONE. And just

as you can ask for assistance from the men and women around you, you may invoke

assistance from the celestial beings that are around you that exist in other

realities. They are very real according to the yogis/siddhas, just as real as

the person standing next to you. And you begin to vibrate

with their energy as you begin to use the seed mantra (special sounds) of that

particular god/goddess.

 

We are all manifestations of the One God. Do we NEED to invoke

or Pray them? Of course not, we don't need to do anything. Everything is a

choice.

 

But there are many Divine Light Beings here now

to assist humanity, and I personally welcome their assistance. Everyone of us

can use Divine help....or you may choose to do it in your own human way. Its our

universal destiny and spiritual journey to merge in ONE.

 

Working with various energies

is one of the best ways to learn about yourself. These are " archetypal energies "

represented by the Gods/Goddesses. When invoking these energies we are

activating the power in each of us. They are ALL within us. So if you need

obstacles removed, invoke Ganesha; for wisdom and divine intelligence invoke

Saraswati and so on.

 

For those of you that like to read, you may want to check out Carl Jung's book,

The Archetypes and the Collective Consciousness.

or simply go to this web page to read about Archetypes as defined by

Carl Jung -

http://www.iloveulove.com/psychology/jung/jungarchetypes.htm

 

Om Namah Shivay

Jai Maa Shakti

[Guest guest]

Well, the odd thing I found with this group [iSKCON]

is that they seemed okay with people worshiping Jesus or Allah etc. (they were

saying that you could call on any name of God that you want) but don't worship

the " demi-gods " !

 

It seemed like a double standard to me.

 

Still...I have a lot to thank them for and respect them. Perhaps I

should just sit out the lectures and stay for the darshan and singing.

 

, " univmama " <univmama wrote:

>

>

> i too am put off by those who claim that their god is

> the only true god!

> perhaps the best thing would be to ignore them!

>

[Guest guest]

ISKON is taken over by westerners with the exclusivity mentality of the

abrahamic religions. Further they have the racist chaiuvenist attitude. Thats

why most of the monks are whites. One example is one Richard Shaw Brown, who is

now a jeweller in Bangkok married to a Thai. He claims he was a MONK in hare

krishna movement!!! Then he gave up.

 

According to Hindu shastras, one who takes sanyas and gives up is the lowliest

of lowly patitas - the damned!!

 

Another funny claim is that he not only was a monk but also a monk of very high

order equal to shankaracharya!!!

 

In the west any claim is OK.

 

He still claims to be a hindu yet spews racist venom on Indian and Hinduness so

that he can make a few $ from selling his trinkets.

 

I also know that ISKON is infilterated probably by western Intelligence agencies

to subvert india.

 

I heard a story about ISKON temple in Bengal being raided and guns and

transmitters seized. I do ot remember where I read it. Otherwise I could have

put the link. quite possible.

 

--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Ashley <herjazz wrote:

 

Ashley <herjazz

Re: " demigods " a question.

 

Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 5:57 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, the odd thing I found with this group [iSKCON]

is that they seemed okay with people worshiping Jesus or Allah etc. (they were

saying that you could call on any name of God that you want) but don't worship

the " demi-gods " !

 

It seemed like a double standard to me.

 

Still...I have a lot to thank them for and respect them. Perhaps I

should just sit out the lectures and stay for the darshan and singing.

 

, " univmama " <univmama@.. .> wrote:

>

>

> i too am put off by those who claim that their god is

> the only true god!

> perhaps the best thing would be to ignore them!

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>I heard a story about ISKON temple in Bengal being raided and guns

>and transmitters seized.

 

I'm inclined to believe it considering the similar cases in the U.S.

including not only weapons but murders and child abuse.

 

While i was initially predisposed to like the U.S. branch of this

group, just based on their devotional chanting and complete

indifference to public disdain, their arrogance quickly put me off.

Years later i became friends with a woman who had spent a quarter

century in this group, and who told me that wife-beating was rampant

and that the doctrine was very much one of female submission. It put

her off Indian religion for a long time, though she has since created

a gorgeous Durga murthi.

 

Max

[Guest guest]

I think we have been very biased in passing judgements on ISKON. It has been

made out to be a really evil influence ...whereas it is just another

sectarian organization with its own merits and flaws ....like any other...

moreover we should be more concerned with shakti sadhna than ISKON Bashing.

 

regards

Aditya

 

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 10:17 AM, Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote:

 

> >I heard a story about ISKON temple in Bengal being raided and guns

> >and transmitters seized.

>

> I'm inclined to believe it considering the similar cases in the U.S.

> including not only weapons but murders and child abuse.

>

> While i was initially predisposed to like the U.S. branch of this

> group, just based on their devotional chanting and complete

> indifference to public disdain, their arrogance quickly put me off.

> Years later i became friends with a woman who had spent a quarter

> century in this group, and who told me that wife-beating was rampant

> and that the doctrine was very much one of female submission. It put

> her off Indian religion for a long time, though she has since created

> a gorgeous Durga murthi.

>

> Max

>

>

[Guest guest]

I do not agree with this at all. This is not intended to be a hate

topic directed towards ISKCON.

 

 

, sankara menon <kochu1tz wrote:

>

> ISKON is taken over by westerners with the exclusivity mentality of

the abrahamic religions. Further they have the racist chaiuvenist

attitude. Thats why most of the monks are whites. One example is one

Richard Shaw Brown, who is now a jeweller in Bangkok married to a

Thai. He claims he was a MONK in hare krishna movement!!! Then he gave up.

>  

> According to Hindu shastras, one who takes sanyas and gives up is

the lowliest of lowly patitas - the damned!!

>  

> Another funny claim is that he not only was a monk but also a monk

of very high order equal to shankaracharya!!!

>  

> In the west any claim is OK.

>  

> He still claims to be a hindu yet spews racist venom on Indian and

Hinduness so that he can make a few $ from selling his trinkets.

>  

> I also know that ISKON is infilterated probably by western

Intelligence agencies to subvert india.

>  

> I heard a story about ISKON temple in Bengal being raided and guns

and transmitters seized. I do ot remember where I read it. Otherwise I

could have put the link. quite possible.