Guest guest Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 I'm an Indian-American, born and raised in Queens, but frequently " frequenting " my parents' Calcutta home. Growing up this way, I've been a keen observer and comparer of American and Indian culture, both of which I relate to, of course. The thing that has bothered me is this: America is founded on patriarchy, socially and religion-wise- yet most women have more opportunities and freedom in this country than anywhere else in the world (with the exception, perhaps, of certain European countries). India is the land of Hinduism, the ONLY religion that celebrates divinity as female, femaly fertility, sexuality, etc. So, why is it that misogyny is so rampant in India? Indian men rarely give their wives or girlfriends respect or affection, and Bollywood movies pretty much show women as anything but powerful (which is why I'm not a fan). Sons are preferred to daughters. I would think that a country that worships Devi would be different. On a semi-related note, I've been curious about the Victorian attitudes about sex in India, the laws against public affection, etc. How does this happen when people are raised on the mythology of Krishna and his lovers, when there are temples such as Khajuraho (sp?), and when we're the ones who came up with the KamaSutra? I've never understood... Salma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 Wendy Doniger, as usual, has a provocative take on the matter of goddess worship and the treatment of women: '[....] [W]hen men as well as women do worship goddesses, as they have done for centuries in many parts of India, the religious texts and rituals clearly express the male fear of female powers, and the male authors of those texts therefore make even greater efforts to control women, as if to say, " god help us all if these naturally powerful women get political power as well. " There is generally, therefore, an inverse ratio between the worship of goddesses and the granting of rights to human women. [....] Goddesses are not, therefore, the solution. Equal respect for human men and women is the solution.' http://tinyurl.com/2vgdrn [i'm not saying I agree with Ms. Doniger, except for her last sentence.] , " salharmonica " <salharmonica wrote: > [....] > > India is the land of Hinduism, the ONLY religion that celebrates > divinity as female, femaly fertility, sexuality, etc. So, why is it > that misogyny is so rampant in India? [....] > I would think that a country that worships Devi would be different. > > > Salma > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 Hi Salma, I think both American patriarchy and Indian patriarchy are complex. Many people don't see the constraints built into American culture, such as the high levels of violence against women (top reason for female admission to ERs) or incest-rape of girls, which only began to be discussed as a result of the women's movement. The famous independence of U.S. women also owes something to the colonial history, where female initiative benefited euro-american settlers in spite of the cultural legacies they carried. The influence of American Indian women's freedom probably had an even greater effect. But the empire builders needed the women, and made concessions to them that wouldn't have happened otherwise, so breaking down many traditional European constraints on women. In the case of India, i think there are different strands of influence at work over such a long history. Certainly things have tightened down considerably since the erotic sculptures of Khajuraho, or any number of other temples where women are shown minimally clothed and dancing, drumming and so on. The Mughal invasions and British colonialism were certainly factors (you didn't refer to " Victorian " attitudes for nothing), and yet earlier doctrines of patriarchy are visible in various scriptures, not least Manusmrti. But what many people don't look at, it seems to me, is the influence of the Adivasi cultures, which are minorities today but whose cultures would have had pervasive influence in Vedic times and afterward. Some of these are still mother-right cultures, in varying degrees, and likely more were in ancient times, going by what Pandu says in Mahabharata, " Women were not formerly immured in houses and dependent on husbands and relatives. They used to go about freely, enjoying themselves as they pleased best. " I'm convinced that the deep-seated Goddess reverence in India goes back to very ancient cultural roots, and has been preserved (and sometimes modified, as per doctrines of pativrata) through the course of multiple shifts toward patriarchy and other historical changes. India is a patriarchal society which has retained veneration of the female Divine to a unique degree. Max >I'm an Indian-American, born and raised in Queens, but >frequently " frequenting " my parents' Calcutta home. Growing up this >way, I've been a keen observer and comparer of American and Indian >culture, both of which I relate to, of course. > >The thing that has bothered me is this: America is founded on >patriarchy, socially and religion-wise- yet most women have more >opportunities and freedom in this country than anywhere else in the >world (with the exception, perhaps, of certain European countries). > >India is the land of Hinduism, the ONLY religion that celebrates >divinity as female, femaly fertility, sexuality, etc. So, why is it >that misogyny is so rampant in India? Indian men rarely give their >wives or girlfriends respect or affection, and Bollywood movies >pretty much show women as anything but powerful (which is why I'm not >a fan). Sons are preferred to daughters. I would think that a country >that worships Devi would be different. > >On a semi-related note, I've been curious about the Victorian >attitudes about sex in India, the laws against public affection, etc. >How does this happen when people are raised on the mythology of >Krishna and his lovers, when there are temples such as Khajuraho >(sp?), and when we're the ones who came up with the KamaSutra? I've >never understood... -- Max Dashu Suppressed Histories Archives http://www.suppressedhistories.net New: Women's Power DVD http://www.suppressedhistories.net/womenspowerdvd.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 In regards to India, I can only guess. After years of British Christian rule and years of being conquered by one foreign entity after another, I would imagine that they are trying to find their way. I do know that India still has not brought up its overall literacy rate which has quite a bit to do with the way women are treated. I noticed that you said you are in New York City which is a fairly progressive area of the US. I can guarantee you that other parts of the US are very misogynistic. I was teaching in an area that did not tolerate people who were not Christian, and they did not appreciate my feminist ideas. I refused to serve the male staff, and while I was working one Sunday I was approached by another male who berated me for about an hour until I got fed up with him and let him have it. The boss who was the bishop of a type of church in the community then suspended me without pay. If the women questioned the men, they were either fired or suspended. I grew up in a society in the US being told that women are inferior and do not deserve to be educated. Trust me these types of ideas do not exist only in 3rd world countries. By the way, I like some Bollywood movies. I really like Ashoka. American movies treat women like objects too unless you like artsy, indie movies. Shanti Om, Shankari --- On Thu, 10/30/08, salharmonica <salharmonica wrote: salharmonica <salharmonica I'm an Indian-American, born and raised in Queens, but frequently " frequenting " my parents' Calcutta home. Growing up this way, I've been a keen observer and comparer of American and Indian culture, both of which I relate to, of course. The thing that has bothered me is this: America is founded on patriarchy, socially and religion-wise- yet most women have more opportunities and freedom in this country than anywhere else in the world (with the exception, perhaps, of certain European countries). India is the land of Hinduism, the ONLY religion that celebrates divinity as female, femaly fertility, sexuality, etc. So, why is it that misogyny is so rampant in India? Indian men rarely give their wives or girlfriends respect or affection, and Bollywood movies pretty much show women as anything but powerful (which is why I'm not a fan). Sons are preferred to daughters. I would think that a country that worships Devi would be different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 Hello You may have been lucky having lived in Queens. Male chauvinism is rampant everywhere, including the US. I grew up in the so-called " Bible belt " and was raised in a very traditional Baptist Christian environment (including going to their schools). We were taught to think of ourselves (girls) as being subservient to men when we grew up. We were taught what our roles would be. Later when I grew out of that, I was still surprised at to the high amount of sexism outside of that Christian environment. I was constantly experiencing men telling me that certain roles were for them and not for women. I decided to take Kung Fu lessons a few years ago and had several men in my class try to bring me down. I had one say he was surprised that I kept at it as " most of the women just leave " . Just a couple of days ago I was asked by a man if I was married. I said yes. He asked me why then I didn't have a ring on. I told him I did not want to wear a ring. He wasn't satisfied with this answer and thought I was lying about being married. It was as if I had to show him my mark of ownership to please him. As was also mentioned, America has a very high number of rape and domestic abuse cases. Of course the majority of the victims being women. As for films and other media, the US is very awful when it comes to portraying women. Even when women are shown to be " tough " they still have to wear revealing or tight-fitting clothes to show that they still care what men think. Women are botoxed, dyed and starved to fit the ideal. There are many books on this subject. I do like Indian films. I do not see them as necessarily being any worse in the women department than US films. If anything they tend to show female characters with more dignity in the more serious films. There has also been a wave of feminist values being portrayed in Indian films in the last ten years. " Lajja " is a particular film that comes to mind as it tackles the very subject matter that you are speaking of. " Veer-Zaara " is another, although more subtle. Let's not forget that there are many movies in India based on Ma Shakti and her various forms. A lot of these films tend to show female devotees being saved from bad marriages and other situations of male abuse. , " salharmonica " <salharmonica wrote: > > I'm an Indian-American, born and raised in Queens, but > frequently " frequenting " my parents' Calcutta home. Growing up this > way, I've been a keen observer and comparer of American and Indian > culture, both of which I relate to, of course. > > The thing that has bothered me is this: America is founded on > patriarchy, socially and religion-wise- yet most women have more > opportunities and freedom in this country than anywhere else in the > world (with the exception, perhaps, of certain European countries). > > India is the land of Hinduism, the ONLY religion that celebrates > divinity as female, femaly fertility, sexuality, etc. So, why is it > that misogyny is so rampant in India? Indian men rarely give their > wives or girlfriends respect or affection, and Bollywood movies > pretty much show women as anything but powerful (which is why I'm not > a fan). Sons are preferred to daughters. I would think that a country > that worships Devi would be different. > > On a semi-related note, I've been curious about the Victorian > attitudes about sex in India, the laws against public affection, etc. > How does this happen when people are raised on the mythology of > Krishna and his lovers, when there are temples such as Khajuraho > (sp?), and when we're the ones who came up with the KamaSutra? I've > never understood... > > Salma > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2008 Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 Well, of course I'm not saying that there aren't male chauvinists in this country- that would be idiotic of me. I also specifically mentioned that I've mingled with men in all walks of life, from all places, not only the ones from Queens. Growing up with two " homes, " I have drawn conclusions based on my personal observations and experiences (which, obviously, all people do). And my observation happens to be the one I pointed out in my earlier messages. There are also over a billion Indians in the world, and it may very well be that my conclusions are unjustified. Just as saying chauvinism runs 'rampant' in America has obviously garnered different reponses from you and me. I think it's safe to say that both India and America have their benefits and negatives- neither place should be idealized. I only say this because sometimes I meet Americans/Europeans who are, for various reasons, fed up with Western culture, Western men, religion, whatever, and think of India as some kind of heaven on earth whose citizens can do no wrong. Then I go to India and watch people seethe with envy when I tell them I'm American, and I just want to laugh in their faces. As for movies, Lajja is more of an artsy-type film. The vast majority portray women as idiots. I'm sorry, but there are too many American popular movies with female characters I love for me to change my opinion. I personally don't think dressing sexy objectifies women- I personally love dressing up, wearing makeup, stilletos, etc. and I don't think it detracts one iota from my feminism. And Indian women nowadays dress even more scantily in Bollywood films than in American films. , " Ashley " <herjazz wrote: > > Hello > > You may have been lucky having lived in Queens. Male chauvinism is > rampant everywhere, including the US. > > I grew up in the so-called " Bible belt " and was raised in a very > traditional Baptist Christian environment (including going to their > schools). > We were taught to think of ourselves (girls) as being subservient to > men when we grew up. We were taught what our roles would be. > > Later when I grew out of that, I was still surprised at to the high > amount of sexism outside of that Christian environment. I was > constantly experiencing men telling me that certain roles were for > them and not for women. > I decided to take Kung Fu lessons a few years ago and had several men > in my class try to bring me down. I had one say he was surprised that > I kept at it as " most of the women just leave " . > > Just a couple of days ago I was asked by a man if I was married. I > said yes. He asked me why then I didn't have a ring on. I told him I > did not want to wear a ring. He wasn't satisfied with this answer and > thought I was lying about being married. It was as if I had to show > him my mark of ownership to please him. > > As was also mentioned, America has a very high number of rape and > domestic abuse cases. Of course the majority of the victims being women. > > As for films and other media, the US is very awful when it comes to > portraying women. Even when women are shown to be " tough " they still > have to wear revealing or tight-fitting clothes to show that they > still care what men think. > Women are botoxed, dyed and starved to fit the ideal. There are many > books on this subject. > > I do like Indian films. I do not see them as necessarily being any > worse in the women department than US films. If anything they tend to > show female characters with more dignity in the more serious films. > There has also been a wave of feminist values being portrayed in > Indian films in the last ten years. > " Lajja " is a particular film that comes to mind as it tackles the very > subject matter that you are speaking of. > " Veer-Zaara " is another, although more subtle. > > Let's not forget that there are many movies in India based on Ma > Shakti and her various forms. A lot of these films tend to show female > devotees being saved from bad marriages and other situations of male > abuse. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 Salma, Last week I said I'd post a passage from _The Goddess Lives in Upstate New York_ in response to query about magic. Well, Dempsey's discussion of ritual power extends over a whole chapter, and I can't see how I could do it justice while chopping it up into something of post-able size. However, while I was looking, I ran across the following story, which, I think, addresses your query about goddess worship -- on several levels. begin quote [from a chapter that discusses miracles.] A final miracle account again involves a challenge to a group of religious elite. This incident also offers a means for increasing the Rush [N.Y.] community's faith, validating not only the presence of the Mother in their midst but also the unusual style in which their temple is run. It is the second of the two events that Aiya, [sri Chaitanyananda] in my [Corrine Dempsey's] presence, expressly and enthusiastically labeled a " miracle. " During the summer of 2002, I attended an afternoon puja, accompanied by my friend Harvey from Syracuse. Abhi, Amma's niece, home from college for the summer, performed the ritual while Ammamma chanted in the background. I had not seen much of Aiya that day; he had been meeting with community members and contractors regarding the soon-to-be-built temple extension. [...] After the ritual was over, Aiya warmly welcomed Harvey and then turned to me. Clapping his hands together, he quietly announced, " Amma, there's been a little miracle. " Early that morning Aiya found someone waiting to chat with him on the temple's internet chat line. It was a Smaarta brahman, a Srividya initiate from the Ujjain region, writing from his workplace in north India. He described himself as part of a group of around twenty Smaarta Srividya upaasakas who gathered regularly to study scripture. They were studying the Sanskrit hymn Lalitaasahasranaamam, " The Thousand Names of Lalita, " and a few days earlier they had been discussing one of the hymn's names for the goddess, Suvaasini Aarcana Prita. Taken separately, the three words roughly mean " married woman, " " worship, " and " pleased. " Most of the group agreed that, when combined, the words meant, " She who is pleased by the worship of a married woman, " reflecting a ritual where temple priests give offerings to a married woman as a form of the Devi. The elder of the group, however, challenged them to consider a different interpretation: " She who is pleased by married women who worship. " Although most of the men felt this was incorrect since it was not their custom, a bit of a debate ensued. The next night, four of the group members had a dream, exactly the same dream, in which Devi appeared to them like a mother figure. She led two devotee-children by the hand, one of whom was the dreamer himself. She brought them to a place where they read a sign marked, " Sri Vidya Temple Society, " and together they walked down a narrow road and into a temple. Inside, rows of women were standing and doing puja to the Devi. The goddess then announced to her companions, " You have kept me locked up in your shrine rooms. Here I am free to roam among the people. " When they asked her where the temple was, she said in Sanskrit, Kraumca Dwipam. Because they were surrounded by gold murtis, the dreamers figured the temple must exist on another plane. When the group reconvened, four of them discovered they had had the same dream. Kraumca Dwipam, they learned from the elder, is Sanskrit for the North American continent. Wanting to know if the temple actually existed, one of the men who had the dream decided to check the Web while he was at work. Using a search engine, he typed in " Lalita " and found nothing. " Rajarajeshwari " also brought up nothing. When he tried " Srividya, " the Rush temple appeared on his screen. He could see from the Web site that it looked like the golden temple in his dream. Once he found Aiya on the chat line, he asked, for verification, if women performed rituals at the temple. When Aiya affirmed this, the man told him about the dream. Aiya, understandably floored and interested in what the Ujjain group planned to do next, asked if they would start letting women perform rituals. The man, according to Aiya, waffled by saying that it is probably easier for people to get away with such things in the United States. Aiya did not make much of this response from the Smaarta brahman - he is used to people disagreeing with his style. The only true validation he feels he needs at this point in his career is from the Mother, and this " little miracle " was just that. [....] From _The Goddess Lives in Upstate New York_, Pages 78-80 , " salharmonica " <salharmonica wrote: > > India is the land of Hinduism, the ONLY religion that celebrates > divinity as female, femaly fertility, sexuality, etc. So, why is it > that misogyny is so rampant in India? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 Thanks for that! Very empowering. Incredible. , " msbauju " <msbauju wrote: > > [....] a passage from _The Goddess Lives > in Upstate New York_ [....] addresses your query about goddess > worship [....] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 >Thanks for that! Very empowering. Incredible. Yes, it's an amazing story and gave me shivers. Is the rest of _The Goddess Lives in Upstate New York_ that good? Max Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 I think so; it's very engagingly written. You can read a sample at Amazon: http://tinyurl.com/6h3lfl And -- bonus! -- it's in print, in paperback, and even available used (in the U.S.; I don't know about other countries.) By way of adjusting expectations, I should say I wouldn't call Aiya a feminist in the regular Euro-Caucasian sense of the word. He is, however, certainly a champion for equal access to the divine -- regardless of one's caste, ethnicity, or gender. And he does (as you can see here) break with convention when he feels its necessary. , Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote: > > >Thanks for that! Very empowering. Incredible. > > Yes, it's an amazing story and gave me shivers. > > Is the rest of _The Goddess Lives in Upstate New York_ that good? > > Max > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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