Guest guest Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Not to be a jaded old spoil sport, but I do have to note that this is one of the oldest unresolvable circular debates we've periodically hosted at SS since its inception as a " Club " nearly a decade ago. As msbauju notes, there are always those who absolutely insist on the necessity of diksha before chanting this mantra or that scripture. And there are always those ready with proof and/or personal testimony that such diksha is not necessary at all. The truth, as is so common in this area, is that both sides are right and both sides are wrong. I would agree with Nageshwarthat some paramparas require diksha for Durga Saptashati (Devi Mahatmyam or Chandi, as many know it). However I would note that such diksha isn't simply " permission " to chant the text as printed -- rather, it turns it into a sadhana; a distinct approach to the text, with certain mantras and nyaasas, etc., added in. Basically the diksha does not " allow " you to chant DM; it simply takes your experience to the next level. With very few exceptions, few of these mantras or texts will do the average chanter any harm, with diksha or without. If you like 'em, chant 'em -- it's better than not chanting 'em. I may invite accusations of irreverence with this, but: Consider the mantra as a motorcycle poised at the top of a hill. Consider diksha as the gas/petrol that fills the fuel tank. Even without diksha, you'll still be able to coast along here and there in a modest way. But to really get somewhere interesting with power, progress and efficiency, sometimes you just can't beat a full tank. My two paise DB , " msbauju " <msbauju wrote: > > Different teachers clearly have differing views on this. > > Shree Maa and Swami Satyananda (of Napa) teach and > recommend the Chandi Path (Durga Saptashati): > http://www.shreemaa.org/drupal/ > > And Sri Karunamayi teaches > the Lalita Sahasranama > (without initiation) > And has a bunch of mantra CDs too. > http://www.karunamayi.org/AmmaStore/home.php?cat=266 > > And Ammachi also recommends the Lalita Sahasranama, > which others feel should be by initiation only. > (BTW, she has a 'Bhajans for Beginners CD' which > might be useful for Robert if he's interested in > trying out Max's suggestion.) > http://www.theammashop.org/mmchants.html > > Sri Karunamayi also teaches the Khadgamala stotram > (and this e-group makes a practice text available); > you say stotrams are okay, but in this e-group > we've had members who say the KS should be by initiation > only as well. > > So there just isn't going to be universal agreement on > what is initiatory and what is not. > > , Nageshwar <srisaswara@> > wrote: > > > > Dear sir , > > > > I agree with u but for stotras is okay but for mantras , Vedas & > Durga saptashati like this even rashmi mala has to come through guru > only . That's what I told ok of my devotee was doing bhagala mukhi I > when he came to me for some problem then I asked him what mantras u r > doing so he told me that I am soon this then I told him not to go > without guru and also maha lakshmi is one of dasamaha Vidya so I > prefer him to go to guru & take his opinion .sorry of I am explaining > a lot. > > > > Thx > > Nageshwar > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 I agree with DB again - to some extent. Mantras do not DEMAND any initiation. When initiation is given the methodology of a liniage come with it. THAT is the part that is secret. They are secret because they are the key and giving it, the guru explains the advantages and the dangers. Knowing this we can safely coast through. If one starts coasting without that roadmap, there can be dangers. My two cents --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta wrote: Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta Diksha or No Diksha? Thursday, February 19, 2009, 12:12 AM Not to be a jaded old spoil sport, but I do have to note that this is one of the oldest unresolvable circular debates we've periodically hosted at SS since its inception as a " Club " nearly a decade ago. As msbauju notes, there are always those who absolutely insist on the necessity of diksha before chanting this mantra or that scripture. And there are always those ready with proof and/or personal testimony that such diksha is not necessary at all. The truth, as is so common in this area, is that both sides are right and both sides are wrong. I would agree with Nageshwarthat some paramparas require diksha for Durga Saptashati (Devi Mahatmyam or Chandi, as many know it). However I would note that such diksha isn't simply " permission " to chant the text as printed -- rather, it turns it into a sadhana; a distinct approach to the text, with certain mantras and nyaasas, etc., added in. Basically the diksha does not " allow " you to chant DM; it simply takes your experience to the next level. With very few exceptions, few of these mantras or texts will do the average chanter any harm, with diksha or without. If you like 'em, chant 'em -- it's better than not chanting 'em. I may invite accusations of irreverence with this, but: Consider the mantra as a motorcycle poised at the top of a hill. Consider diksha as the gas/petrol that fills the fuel tank. Even without diksha, you'll still be able to coast along here and there in a modest way. But to really get somewhere interesting with power, progress and efficiency, sometimes you just can't beat a full tank. My two paise DB , " msbauju " <msbauju > wrote: > > Different teachers clearly have differing views on this. > > Shree Maa and Swami Satyananda (of Napa) teach and > recommend the Chandi Path (Durga Saptashati): > http://www.shreemaa .org/drupal/ > > And Sri Karunamayi teaches > the Lalita Sahasranama > (without initiation) > And has a bunch of mantra CDs too. > http://www.karunama yi.org/AmmaStore /home.php? cat=266 > > And Ammachi also recommends the Lalita Sahasranama, > which others feel should be by initiation only. > (BTW, she has a 'Bhajans for Beginners CD' which > might be useful for Robert if he's interested in > trying out Max's suggestion.) > http://www.theammas hop.org/mmchants .html > > Sri Karunamayi also teaches the Khadgamala stotram > (and this e-group makes a practice text available); > you say stotrams are okay, but in this e-group > we've had members who say the KS should be by initiation > only as well. > > So there just isn't going to be universal agreement on > what is initiatory and what is not. > > , Nageshwar <srisaswara@ > > wrote: > > > > Dear sir , > > > > I agree with u but for stotras is okay but for mantras , Vedas & > Durga saptashati like this even rashmi mala has to come through guru > only . That's what I told ok of my devotee was doing bhagala mukhi I > when he came to me for some problem then I asked him what mantras u r > doing so he told me that I am soon this then I told him not to go > without guru and also maha lakshmi is one of dasamaha Vidya so I > prefer him to go to guru & take his opinion .sorry of I am explaining > a lot. > > > > Thx > > Nageshwar > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Sir, I just want to share one news in Lalita sahasranama it says one who has upadesha of Bala or panchadasi should do pooja & then chant Lalita s namam then do k Japa . In amnaya stotram it says first khadgamala ,amnayya stotra Lalita a Nama Lalita trishati & Lalita stavaraja . So these all have nyasa . So guru is main guru will be watching us . We have guru paduka so by that we always have his blessings and also for dasamaha Vidya we need shodashi . If one has that we can proceed all these r tantra shastra we have to be more careful . While we r in sringeri Guruji used to tell us do not chant Lalita sahasranamam if u don't have Bala this means atleast u should have that . Thx Nageshwara Jagadambarpanam On Feb 18, 2009, at 11:44 AM, sankara menon <kochu1tz wrote: I agree with DB again - to some extent. Mantras do not DEMAND any initiation. When initiation is given the methodology of a liniage come with it. THAT is the part that is secret. They are secret because they are the key and giving it, the guru explains the advantages and the dangers. Knowing this we can safely coast through. If one starts coasting without that roadmap, there can be dangers. My two cents --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta wrote: Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta Diksha or No Diksha? Thursday, February 19, 2009, 12:12 AM Not to be a jaded old spoil sport, but I do have to note that this is one of the oldest unresolvable circular debates we've periodically hosted at SS since its inception as a " Club " nearly a decade ago. As msbauju notes, there are always those who absolutely insist on the necessity of diksha before chanting this mantra or that scripture. And there are always those ready with proof and/or personal testimony that such diksha is not necessary at all. The truth, as is so common in this area, is that both sides are right and both sides are wrong. I would agree with Nageshwarthat some paramparas require diksha for Durga Saptashati (Devi Mahatmyam or Chandi, as many know it). However I would note that such diksha isn't simply " permission " to chant the text as printed -- rather, it turns it into a sadhana; a distinct approach to the text, with certain mantras and nyaasas, etc., added in. Basically the diksha does not " allow " you to chant DM; it simply takes your experience to the next level. With very few exceptions, few of these mantras or texts will do the average chanter any harm, with diksha or without. If you like 'em, chant 'em -- it's better than not chanting 'em. I may invite accusations of irreverence with this, but: Consider the mantra as a motorcycle poised at the top of a hill. Consider diksha as the gas/petrol that fills the fuel tank. Even without diksha, you'll still be able to coast along here and there in a modest way. But to really get somewhere interesting with power, progress and efficiency, sometimes you just can't beat a full tank. My two paise DB , " msbauju " <msbauju > wrote: > > Different teachers clearly have differing views on this. > > Shree Maa and Swami Satyananda (of Napa) teach and > recommend the Chandi Path (Durga Saptashati): > http://www.shreemaa .org/drupal/ > > And Sri Karunamayi teaches > the Lalita Sahasranama > (without initiation) > And has a bunch of mantra CDs too. > http://www.karunama yi.org/AmmaStore /home.php? cat=266 > > And Ammachi also recommends the Lalita Sahasranama, > which others feel should be by initiation only. > (BTW, she has a 'Bhajans for Beginners CD' which > might be useful for Robert if he's interested in > trying out Max's suggestion.) > http://www.theammas hop.org/mmchants .html > > Sri Karunamayi also teaches the Khadgamala stotram > (and this e-group makes a practice text available); > you say stotrams are okay, but in this e-group > we've had members who say the KS should be by initiation > only as well. > > So there just isn't going to be universal agreement on > what is initiatory and what is not. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Dear Nageshwara: So says your guru, and thus you should listen -- just as I must listen to mine. As I said, it's an old and circular debate, and its spin shows no signs of slowing. Que sera sera DB , Nageshwar <srisaswara wrote: > > Sir, > > I just want to share one news in Lalita sahasranama it says one who has upadesha of Bala or panchadasi should do pooja & then chant Lalita s namam then do k > Japa . In amnaya stotram it says first khadgamala ,amnayya stotra Lalita a Nama > Lalita trishati & Lalita stavaraja . So these all have nyasa . So guru is main guru will be watching us . We have guru paduka so by that we always have his blessings and also for dasamaha Vidya we need shodashi . If one has that we can proceed all these r tantra shastra we have to be more careful . While we r in sringeri Guruji used to tell us do not chant Lalita sahasranamam if u don't have Bala this means atleast u should have that . > > Thx > Nageshwara > > > Jagadambarpanam > > On Feb 18, 2009, at 11:44 AM, sankara menon <kochu1tz wrote: > > I agree with DB again - to some extent. > > Mantras do not DEMAND any initiation. When initiation is given the methodology of a liniage come with it. THAT is the part that is secret. They are secret because they are the key and giving it, the guru explains the advantages and the dangers. Knowing this we can safely coast through. > > If one starts coasting without that roadmap, there can be dangers. > > My two cents > > > --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta wrote: > > Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta > Diksha or No Diksha? > > Thursday, February 19, 2009, 12:12 AM > > Not to be a jaded old spoil sport, but I do have to note that this is > one of the oldest unresolvable circular debates we've periodically > hosted at SS since its inception as a " Club " nearly a decade ago. > > As msbauju notes, there are always those who absolutely insist on the > necessity of diksha before chanting this mantra or that scripture. And > there are always those ready with proof and/or personal testimony that > such diksha is not necessary at all. > > The truth, as is so common in this area, is that both sides are right > and both sides are wrong. I would agree with Nageshwarthat some > paramparas require diksha for Durga Saptashati (Devi Mahatmyam or > Chandi, as many know it). However I would note that such diksha isn't > simply " permission " to chant the text as printed -- rather, it turns > it into a sadhana; a distinct approach to the text, with certain > mantras and nyaasas, etc., added in. Basically the diksha does not > " allow " you to chant DM; it simply takes your experience to the next > level. > > With very few exceptions, few of these mantras or texts will do the > average chanter any harm, with diksha or without. If you like 'em, > chant 'em -- it's better than not chanting 'em. > > I may invite accusations of irreverence with this, but: Consider the > mantra as a motorcycle poised at the top of a hill. Consider diksha as > the gas/petrol that fills the fuel tank. Even without diksha, you'll > still be able to coast along here and there in a modest way. But to > really get somewhere interesting with power, progress and efficiency, > sometimes you just can't beat a full tank. > > My two paise > > DB > > , " msbauju " <msbauju@ > wrote: > > > > Different teachers clearly have differing views on this. > > > > Shree Maa and Swami Satyananda (of Napa) teach and > > recommend the Chandi Path (Durga Saptashati): > > http://www.shreemaa .org/drupal/ > > > > And Sri Karunamayi teaches > > the Lalita Sahasranama > > (without initiation) > > And has a bunch of mantra CDs too. > > http://www.karunama yi.org/AmmaStore /home.php? cat=266 > > > > And Ammachi also recommends the Lalita Sahasranama, > > which others feel should be by initiation only. > > (BTW, she has a 'Bhajans for Beginners CD' which > > might be useful for Robert if he's interested in > > trying out Max's suggestion.) > > http://www.theammas hop.org/mmchants .html > > > > Sri Karunamayi also teaches the Khadgamala stotram > > (and this e-group makes a practice text available); > > you say stotrams are okay, but in this e-group > > we've had members who say the KS should be by initiation > > only as well. > > > > So there just isn't going to be universal agreement on > > what is initiatory and what is not. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Namskaram/Vanakkam All mantras need to be learnt from a guru just so we get the right intonation, meaning and significance. Nyasas are easily learnt from a guru. However best one may try, we pick nyasas up wrongly when learning from do-it-yourself manuals. The spirit one imbibes when doing sadhana of any deity emanates from the guru like a child learning to emote verbally from its mother - not that one cannot learn verbal expressions from books. Picked up from family and environment, verbal expression becomes that much easier, more natural and more spontaneous. The one who speaks a native tongue may not be a scholar in his native tongue. One who is foreign to the tongue may be an erudite scholar. But the former emotes more effectively in that tongue while the latter can thoroughly analyse why and how the former did it. There are of course certainly quite a few foreigners who are able to pick up native matters with as much facile as fish taking to water. But, alas, this is not the rule. This is the essence of difference between having or nor having a guru. Japam also is done more for internalisation not from the point of getting it by rote but making an impression on our DNA (figuretively speaking). When we become one with the mantra (not above, not below, not mastering it, nor becoming a slave), you are a siddhapurusha. I have used the second person here as I am not one. Greatest advantage in having a guru is one can easily talk to the deity itself. talk to the deity and listen to her reply. You need not ask anyone else. You become the rishi, the seer. My half a cent...since kochu has generously given two. JR --- On Thu, 2/19/09, sankara menon <kochu1tz wrote: sankara menon <kochu1tz Re: Diksha or No Diksha? Thursday, February 19, 2009, 1:14 AM I agree with DB again - to some extent. Mantras do not DEMAND any initiation. When initiation is given the methodology of a liniage come with it. THAT is the part that is secret. They are secret because they are the key and giving it, the guru explains the advantages and the dangers. Knowing this we can safely coast through. If one starts coasting without that roadmap, there can be dangers. My two cents --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta@ > wrote: Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta@ > Diksha or No Diksha? Thursday, February 19, 2009, 12:12 AM Not to be a jaded old spoil sport, but I do have to note that this is one of the oldest unresolvable circular debates we've periodically hosted at SS since its inception as a " Club " nearly a decade ago. As msbauju notes, there are always those who absolutely insist on the necessity of diksha before chanting this mantra or that scripture. And there are always those ready with proof and/or personal testimony that such diksha is not necessary at all. The truth, as is so common in this area, is that both sides are right and both sides are wrong. I would agree with Nageshwarthat some paramparas require diksha for Durga Saptashati (Devi Mahatmyam or Chandi, as many know it). However I would note that such diksha isn't simply " permission " to chant the text as printed -- rather, it turns it into a sadhana; a distinct approach to the text, with certain mantras and nyaasas, etc., added in. Basically the diksha does not " allow " you to chant DM; it simply takes your experience to the next level. With very few exceptions, few of these mantras or texts will do the average chanter any harm, with diksha or without. If you like 'em, chant 'em -- it's better than not chanting 'em. I may invite accusations of irreverence with this, but: Consider the mantra as a motorcycle poised at the top of a hill. Consider diksha as the gas/petrol that fills the fuel tank. Even without diksha, you'll still be able to coast along here and there in a modest way. But to really get somewhere interesting with power, progress and efficiency, sometimes you just can't beat a full tank. My two paise DB , " msbauju " <msbauju > wrote: > > Different teachers clearly have differing views on this. > > Shree Maa and Swami Satyananda (of Napa) teach and > recommend the Chandi Path (Durga Saptashati): > http://www.shreemaa .org/drupal/ > > And Sri Karunamayi teaches > the Lalita Sahasranama > (without initiation) > And has a bunch of mantra CDs too. > http://www.karunama yi.org/AmmaStore /home.php? cat=266 > > And Ammachi also recommends the Lalita Sahasranama, > which others feel should be by initiation only. > (BTW, she has a 'Bhajans for Beginners CD' which > might be useful for Robert if he's interested in > trying out Max's suggestion.) > http://www.theammas hop.org/mmchants .html > > Sri Karunamayi also teaches the Khadgamala stotram > (and this e-group makes a practice text available); > you say stotrams are okay, but in this e-group > we've had members who say the KS should be by initiation > only as well. > > So there just isn't going to be universal agreement on > what is initiatory and what is not. > > , Nageshwar <srisaswara@ > > wrote: > > > > Dear sir , > > > > I agree with u but for stotras is okay but for mantras , Vedas & > Durga saptashati like this even rashmi mala has to come through guru > only . That's what I told ok of my devotee was doing bhagala mukhi I > when he came to me for some problem then I asked him what mantras u r > doing so he told me that I am soon this then I told him not to go > without guru and also maha lakshmi is one of dasamaha Vidya so I > prefer him to go to guru & take his opinion .sorry of I am explaining > a lot. > > > > Thx > > Nageshwar > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 This metaphor of language is really wonderful and a great way of expressing this in a clear and nonjudgmental way. I will have to remember this! As you said, there are some people who do not require a guru - and these people have often become gurus themselves! But this is very rare, and it's probably best to work with a guru wherever possible, if nothing else to ensure that - as you say - the intonation and significance are " correct. " Of course what is " correct " will often differ from tradition to tradition. Shree Maa and Swamiji say that there is no harm in chanting the mantras, and that if one practices sincerely, then the guru will come. I think guru comes in many forms, as the Sastras say. But I also think it's probably unrealistic to think that one will achieve very deep levels without the aid of a qualified guru, unless one is very extraordinary. thanks for your thoughts...jai maa! -sundari On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:34 AM, Radhakrishnan J <jayaarshreewrote: > Namskaram/Vanakkam > > All mantras need to be learnt from a guru just so we get the right > intonation, meaning and significance. Nyasas are easily learnt from a guru. > However best one may try, we pick nyasas up wrongly when learning from > do-it-yourself manuals. The spirit one imbibes when doing sadhana of any > deity emanates from the guru like a child learning to emote verbally from > its mother - not that one cannot learn verbal expressions from books. Picked > up from family and environment, verbal expression becomes that much easier, > more natural and more spontaneous. The one who speaks a native tongue may > not be a scholar in his native tongue. One who is foreign to the tongue may > be an erudite scholar. But the former emotes more effectively in that tongue > while the latter can thoroughly analyse why and how the former did it. There > are of course certainly quite a few foreigners who are able to pick up > native matters with as much facile as fish taking to water. But, alas, this > is not the rule. > > This is the essence of difference between having or nor having a guru. > > Japam also is done more for internalisation not from the point of getting > it by rote but making an impression on our DNA (figuretively speaking). When > we become one with the mantra (not above, not below, not mastering it, nor > becoming a slave), you are a siddhapurusha. I have used the second person > here as I am not one. > > Greatest advantage in having a guru is one can easily talk to the deity > itself. talk to the deity and listen to her reply. You need not ask anyone > else. You become the rishi, the seer. > > My half a cent...since kochu has generously given two. > > JR > > --- On Thu, 2/19/09, sankara menon <kochu1tz<kochu1tz%40>> > wrote: > > sankara menon <kochu1tz <kochu1tz%40>> > Re: Diksha or No Diksha? > <%40> > Thursday, February 19, 2009, 1:14 AM > > > I agree with DB again - to some extent. > > Mantras do not DEMAND any initiation. When initiation is given the > methodology of a liniage come with it. THAT is the part that is secret. They > are secret because they are the key and giving it, the guru explains the > advantages and the dangers. Knowing this we can safely coast through. > > If one starts coasting without that roadmap, there can be dangers. > > My two cents > > > --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta@ > wrote: > > Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta@ > > Diksha or No Diksha? > > Thursday, February 19, 2009, 12:12 AM > > Not to be a jaded old spoil sport, but I do have to note that this is > one of the oldest unresolvable circular debates we've periodically > hosted at SS since its inception as a " Club " nearly a decade ago. > > As msbauju notes, there are always those who absolutely insist on the > necessity of diksha before chanting this mantra or that scripture. And > there are always those ready with proof and/or personal testimony that > such diksha is not necessary at all. > > The truth, as is so common in this area, is that both sides are right > and both sides are wrong. I would agree with Nageshwarthat some > paramparas require diksha for Durga Saptashati (Devi Mahatmyam or > Chandi, as many know it). However I would note that such diksha isn't > simply " permission " to chant the text as printed -- rather, it turns > it into a sadhana; a distinct approach to the text, with certain > mantras and nyaasas, etc., added in. Basically the diksha does not > " allow " you to chant DM; it simply takes your experience to the next > level. > > With very few exceptions, few of these mantras or texts will do the > average chanter any harm, with diksha or without. If you like 'em, > chant 'em -- it's better than not chanting 'em. > > I may invite accusations of irreverence with this, but: Consider the > mantra as a motorcycle poised at the top of a hill. Consider diksha as > the gas/petrol that fills the fuel tank. Even without diksha, you'll > still be able to coast along here and there in a modest way. But to > really get somewhere interesting with power, progress and efficiency, > sometimes you just can't beat a full tank. > > My two paise > > DB > > , " msbauju " <msbauju > wrote: > > > > Different teachers clearly have differing views on this. > > > > Shree Maa and Swami Satyananda (of Napa) teach and > > recommend the Chandi Path (Durga Saptashati): > > http://www.shreemaa .org/drupal/ > > > > And Sri Karunamayi teaches > > the Lalita Sahasranama > > (without initiation) > > And has a bunch of mantra CDs too. > > http://www.karunama yi.org/AmmaStore /home.php? cat=266 > > > > And Ammachi also recommends the Lalita Sahasranama, > > which others feel should be by initiation only. > > (BTW, she has a 'Bhajans for Beginners CD' which > > might be useful for Robert if he's interested in > > trying out Max's suggestion.) > > http://www.theammas hop.org/mmchants .html > > > > Sri Karunamayi also teaches the Khadgamala stotram > > (and this e-group makes a practice text available); > > you say stotrams are okay, but in this e-group > > we've had members who say the KS should be by initiation > > only as well. > > > > So there just isn't going to be universal agreement on > > what is initiatory and what is not. > > > > , Nageshwar <srisaswara@ > > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear sir , > > > > > > I agree with u but for stotras is okay but for mantras , Vedas & > > Durga saptashati like this even rashmi mala has to come through guru > > only . That's what I told ok of my devotee was doing bhagala mukhi I > > when he came to me for some problem then I asked him what mantras u r > > doing so he told me that I am soon this then I told him not to go > > without guru and also maha lakshmi is one of dasamaha Vidya so I > > prefer him to go to guru & take his opinion .sorry of I am explaining > > a lot. > > > > > > Thx > > > Nageshwar > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Even if Maa born in world She need Guru even Rama and other Avatar is take respect to Guru why we think we not need Guru ? --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Sundari Johansen Hurwitt <sundarikali wrote: Sundari Johansen Hurwitt <sundarikali Re: Diksha or No Diksha? Thursday, February 19, 2009, 6:49 PM This metaphor of language is really wonderful and a great way of expressing this in a clear and nonjudgmental way. I will have to remember this! As you said, there are some people who do not require a guru - and these people have often become gurus themselves! But this is very rare, and it's probably best to work with a guru wherever possible, if nothing else to ensure that - as you say - the intonation and significance are " correct. " Of course what is " correct " will often differ from tradition to tradition. Shree Maa and Swamiji say that there is no harm in chanting the mantras, and that if one practices sincerely, then the guru will come. I think guru comes in many forms, as the Sastras say. But I also think it's probably unrealistic to think that one will achieve very deep levels without the aid of a qualified guru, unless one is very extraordinary. thanks for your thoughts...jai maa! -sundari On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:34 AM, Radhakrishnan J <jayaarshree@ >wrote: > Namskaram/Vanakkam > > All mantras need to be learnt from a guru just so we get the right > intonation, meaning and significance. Nyasas are easily learnt from a guru. > However best one may try, we pick nyasas up wrongly when learning from > do-it-yourself manuals. The spirit one imbibes when doing sadhana of any > deity emanates from the guru like a child learning to emote verbally from > its mother - not that one cannot learn verbal expressions from books. Picked > up from family and environment, verbal expression becomes that much easier, > more natural and more spontaneous. The one who speaks a native tongue may > not be a scholar in his native tongue. One who is foreign to the tongue may > be an erudite scholar. But the former emotes more effectively in that tongue > while the latter can thoroughly analyse why and how the former did it. There > are of course certainly quite a few foreigners who are able to pick up > native matters with as much facile as fish taking to water. But, alas, this > is not the rule. > > This is the essence of difference between having or nor having a guru. > > Japam also is done more for internalisation not from the point of getting > it by rote but making an impression on our DNA (figuretively speaking). When > we become one with the mantra (not above, not below, not mastering it, nor > becoming a slave), you are a siddhapurusha. I have used the second person > here as I am not one. > > Greatest advantage in having a guru is one can easily talk to the deity > itself. talk to the deity and listen to her reply. You need not ask anyone > else. You become the rishi, the seer. > > My half a cent...since kochu has generously given two. > > JR > > --- On Thu, 2/19/09, sankara menon <kochu1tz <kochu1tz%40. com>> > wrote: > > sankara menon <kochu1tz <kochu1tz%40. com>> > Re: Diksha or No Diksha? > <% 40. com> > Thursday, February 19, 2009, 1:14 AM > > > I agree with DB again - to some extent. > > Mantras do not DEMAND any initiation. When initiation is given the > methodology of a liniage come with it. THAT is the part that is secret. They > are secret because they are the key and giving it, the guru explains the > advantages and the dangers. Knowing this we can safely coast through. > > If one starts coasting without that roadmap, there can be dangers. > > My two cents > > > --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta@ > wrote: > > Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta@ > > Diksha or No Diksha? > > Thursday, February 19, 2009, 12:12 AM > > Not to be a jaded old spoil sport, but I do have to note that this is > one of the oldest unresolvable circular debates we've periodically > hosted at SS since its inception as a " Club " nearly a decade ago. > > As msbauju notes, there are always those who absolutely insist on the > necessity of diksha before chanting this mantra or that scripture. And > there are always those ready with proof and/or personal testimony that > such diksha is not necessary at all. > > The truth, as is so common in this area, is that both sides are right > and both sides are wrong. I would agree with Nageshwarthat some > paramparas require diksha for Durga Saptashati (Devi Mahatmyam or > Chandi, as many know it). However I would note that such diksha isn't > simply " permission " to chant the text as printed -- rather, it turns > it into a sadhana; a distinct approach to the text, with certain > mantras and nyaasas, etc., added in. Basically the diksha does not > " allow " you to chant DM; it simply takes your experience to the next > level. > > With very few exceptions, few of these mantras or texts will do the > average chanter any harm, with diksha or without. If you like 'em, > chant 'em -- it's better than not chanting 'em. > > I may invite accusations of irreverence with this, but: Consider the > mantra as a motorcycle poised at the top of a hill. Consider diksha as > the gas/petrol that fills the fuel tank. Even without diksha, you'll > still be able to coast along here and there in a modest way. But to > really get somewhere interesting with power, progress and efficiency, > sometimes you just can't beat a full tank. > > My two paise > > DB > > , " msbauju " <msbauju > wrote: > > > > Different teachers clearly have differing views on this. > > > > Shree Maa and Swami Satyananda (of Napa) teach and > > recommend the Chandi Path (Durga Saptashati): > > http://www.shreemaa .org/drupal/ > > > > And Sri Karunamayi teaches > > the Lalita Sahasranama > > (without initiation) > > And has a bunch of mantra CDs too. > > http://www.karunama yi.org/AmmaStore /home.php? cat=266 > > > > And Ammachi also recommends the Lalita Sahasranama, > > which others feel should be by initiation only. > > (BTW, she has a 'Bhajans for Beginners CD' which > > might be useful for Robert if he's interested in > > trying out Max's suggestion.) > > http://www.theammas hop.org/mmchants .html > > > > Sri Karunamayi also teaches the Khadgamala stotram > > (and this e-group makes a practice text available); > > you say stotrams are okay, but in this e-group > > we've had members who say the KS should be by initiation > > only as well. > > > > So there just isn't going to be universal agreement on > > what is initiatory and what is not. > > > > , Nageshwar <srisaswara@ > > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear sir , > > > > > > I agree with u but for stotras is okay but for mantras , Vedas & > > Durga saptashati like this even rashmi mala has to come through guru > > only . That's what I told ok of my devotee was doing bhagala mukhi I > > when he came to me for some problem then I asked him what mantras u r > > doing so he told me that I am soon this then I told him not to go > > without guru and also maha lakshmi is one of dasamaha Vidya so I > > prefer him to go to guru & take his opinion .sorry of I am explaining > > a lot. > > > > > > Thx > > > Nageshwar > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Hello all I am a Devi upasak as well. Last 5 years I did hundreds of Chandi Paaths and all Navarna mantra japa under guidance from Swamiji Satyananda Saraswati and Shree Maa WITHOUT any Diksha. They said just recite sincerely when Devi will be pleased she will send a Guru. I finally got a Guru who now gave me Diksha into Navarna and authority to worship/ chant ALL Devi mantras. It is true that Guru 'comes' himself. This has happened to me. I wanted to go to a Guru for Diksha but Devi sent him directly to me in my town ship. Have faith and do all your worship irrespective you have or don't have Diksha. When Devi will want you to have Diksha you will get it. So long as you are under guidance of Shree Maa and Swamiji why worry? Just follow what they say faithfully. They are also your Guru although they gave no diksha. A Guru and diksha is important in spiritual advancement. My two cents. Jai Maa JAY. On Behalf Of JUN Saturday, February 21, 2009 3:37 PM Re: Diksha or No Diksha? Even if Maa born in world She need Guru even Rama and other Avatar is take respect to Guru why we think we not need Guru ? --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Sundari Johansen Hurwitt <sundarikali <sundarikali%40gmail.com> > wrote: Sundari Johansen Hurwitt <sundarikali <sundarikali%40gmail.com> > Re: Diksha or No Diksha? <%40> Thursday, February 19, 2009, 6:49 PM This metaphor of language is really wonderful and a great way of expressing this in a clear and nonjudgmental way. I will have to remember this! As you said, there are some people who do not require a guru - and these people have often become gurus themselves! But this is very rare, and it's probably best to work with a guru wherever possible, if nothing else to ensure that - as you say - the intonation and significance are " correct. " Of course what is " correct " will often differ from tradition to tradition. Shree Maa and Swamiji say that there is no harm in chanting the mantras, and that if one practices sincerely, then the guru will come. I think guru comes in many forms, as the Sastras say. But I also think it's probably unrealistic to think that one will achieve very deep levels without the aid of a qualified guru, unless one is very extraordinary. thanks for your thoughts...jai maa! -sundari On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:34 AM, Radhakrishnan J <jayaarshree@ >wrote: > Namskaram/Vanakkam > > All mantras need to be learnt from a guru just so we get the right > intonation, meaning and significance. Nyasas are easily learnt from a guru. > However best one may try, we pick nyasas up wrongly when learning from > do-it-yourself manuals. The spirit one imbibes when doing sadhana of any > deity emanates from the guru like a child learning to emote verbally from > its mother - not that one cannot learn verbal expressions from books. Picked > up from family and environment, verbal expression becomes that much easier, > more natural and more spontaneous. The one who speaks a native tongue may > not be a scholar in his native tongue. One who is foreign to the tongue may > be an erudite scholar. But the former emotes more effectively in that tongue > while the latter can thoroughly analyse why and how the former did it. There > are of course certainly quite a few foreigners who are able to pick up > native matters with as much facile as fish taking to water. But, alas, this > is not the rule. > > This is the essence of difference between having or nor having a guru. > > Japam also is done more for internalisation not from the point of getting > it by rote but making an impression on our DNA (figuretively speaking). When > we become one with the mantra (not above, not below, not mastering it, nor > becoming a slave), you are a siddhapurusha. I have used the second person > here as I am not one. > > Greatest advantage in having a guru is one can easily talk to the deity > itself. talk to the deity and listen to her reply. You need not ask anyone > else. You become the rishi, the seer. > > My half a cent...since kochu has generously given two. > > JR > > --- On Thu, 2/19/09, sankara menon <kochu1tz <kochu1tz%40. com>> > wrote: > > sankara menon <kochu1tz <kochu1tz%40. com>> > Re: Diksha or No Diksha? > <% 40. com> > Thursday, February 19, 2009, 1:14 AM > > > I agree with DB again - to some extent. > > Mantras do not DEMAND any initiation. When initiation is given the > methodology of a liniage come with it. THAT is the part that is secret. They > are secret because they are the key and giving it, the guru explains the > advantages and the dangers. Knowing this we can safely coast through. > > If one starts coasting without that roadmap, there can be dangers. > > My two cents > > > --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta@ > wrote: > > Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta@ > > Diksha or No Diksha? > > Thursday, February 19, 2009, 12:12 AM > > Not to be a jaded old spoil sport, but I do have to note that this is > one of the oldest unresolvable circular debates we've periodically > hosted at SS since its inception as a " Club " nearly a decade ago. > > As msbauju notes, there are always those who absolutely insist on the > necessity of diksha before chanting this mantra or that scripture. And > there are always those ready with proof and/or personal testimony that > such diksha is not necessary at all. > > The truth, as is so common in this area, is that both sides are right > and both sides are wrong. I would agree with Nageshwarthat some > paramparas require diksha for Durga Saptashati (Devi Mahatmyam or > Chandi, as many know it). However I would note that such diksha isn't > simply " permission " to chant the text as printed -- rather, it turns > it into a sadhana; a distinct approach to the text, with certain > mantras and nyaasas, etc., added in. Basically the diksha does not > " allow " you to chant DM; it simply takes your experience to the next > level. > > With very few exceptions, few of these mantras or texts will do the > average chanter any harm, with diksha or without. If you like 'em, > chant 'em -- it's better than not chanting 'em. > > I may invite accusations of irreverence with this, but: Consider the > mantra as a motorcycle poised at the top of a hill. Consider diksha as > the gas/petrol that fills the fuel tank. Even without diksha, you'll > still be able to coast along here and there in a modest way. But to > really get somewhere interesting with power, progress and efficiency, > sometimes you just can't beat a full tank. > > My two paise > > DB > > , " msbauju " <msbauju > wrote: > > > > Different teachers clearly have differing views on this. > > > > Shree Maa and Swami Satyananda (of Napa) teach and > > recommend the Chandi Path (Durga Saptashati): > > http://www.shreemaa .org/drupal/ > > > > And Sri Karunamayi teaches > > the Lalita Sahasranama > > (without initiation) > > And has a bunch of mantra CDs too. > > http://www.karunama yi.org/AmmaStore /home.php? cat=266 > > > > And Ammachi also recommends the Lalita Sahasranama, > > which others feel should be by initiation only. > > (BTW, she has a 'Bhajans for Beginners CD' which > > might be useful for Robert if he's interested in > > trying out Max's suggestion.) > > http://www.theammas hop.org/mmchants .html > > > > Sri Karunamayi also teaches the Khadgamala stotram > > (and this e-group makes a practice text available); > > you say stotrams are okay, but in this e-group > > we've had members who say the KS should be by initiation > > only as well. > > > > So there just isn't going to be universal agreement on > > what is initiatory and what is not. > > > > , Nageshwar <srisaswara@ > > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear sir , > > > > > > I agree with u but for stotras is okay but for mantras , Vedas & > > Durga saptashati like this even rashmi mala has to come through guru > > only . That's what I told ok of my devotee was doing bhagala mukhi I > > when he came to me for some problem then I asked him what mantras u r > > doing so he told me that I am soon this then I told him not to go > > without guru and also maha lakshmi is one of dasamaha Vidya so I > > prefer him to go to guru & take his opinion .sorry of I am explaining > > a lot. > > > > > > Thx > > > Nageshwar > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Hari Om, The name Swamy Satyananda Saraswati evokes a thrill of joy in the heart.� Could you please share information about SSS Hari Om. [Moderator's note: see http://www.shreemaa.org/ for information on Swami Satyananda and Shree Maa.] ________________________________ Dayals Group Ba <dayals I am a Devi upasak as well. Last 5 years I did hundreds of Chandi Paaths and all Navarna mantra japa under guidance from Swamiji Satyananda Saraswati and Shree Maa WITHOUT any Diksha. They said just recite sincerely when Devi will be pleased she will send a Guru. I finally got a Guru who now gave me Diksha into Navarna and authority to worship/ chant ALL Devi mantras. It is true that Guru 'comes' himself. This has happened to me. I wanted to go to a Guru for Diksha but Devi sent him directly to me in my town ship. Have faith and do all your worship irrespective you have or don't have Diksha. When Devi will want you to have Diksha you will get it. So long as you are under guidance of Shree Maa and Swamiji why worry? Just follow what they say faithfully. They are also your Guru although they gave no diksha. A Guru and diksha is important in spiritual advancement. My two cents. Jai Maa JAY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Diksha or No Diksha? Guru or No Guru? I live in the middle of small town redneckville, where the closest Satsang is more than 100 miles away and there aren't even any Hindus here other than me, this little speck, humming my little vibration into the vastness of the infinite universe. My Guru is in Kerala. If I get lonely or confused, I, like Trotakacharya, just fling myself in Mother's lap. She takes care of everything, and I keep going. Triambakam Yajamahe, etc. Jai Ma-a-a-a Her devoted little sheep, Nancy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 You'll be able to find plenty of information on Swamiji at www.shreemaa.org... On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 5:20 AM, sadhujag sadhujag <sadhujagwrote: > > > > Hari Om, > > The name Swamy Satyananda Saraswati evokes a thrill of joy in the heart.� > Could you please share > information about SSS > > Hari Om. > > [Moderator's note: see http://www.shreemaa.org/ for > information on Swami Satyananda and Shree Maa.] > > ________________________________ > Dayals Group Ba <dayals <dayals%40connect.com.fj>> > > > I am a Devi upasak as well. Last 5 years I did hundreds of Chandi Paaths > and > all Navarna mantra japa under guidance from Swamiji Satyananda Saraswati > and > Shree Maa WITHOUT any Diksha. > > They said just recite sincerely when Devi will be pleased she will send a > Guru. I finally got a Guru who now gave me Diksha into Navarna and > authority > to worship/ chant ALL Devi mantras. > > It is true that Guru 'comes' himself. This has happened to me. I wanted to > go to a Guru for Diksha but Devi sent him directly to me in my town ship. > > Have faith and do all your worship irrespective you have or don't have > Diksha. When Devi will want you to have Diksha you will get it. So long as > you are under guidance of Shree Maa and Swamiji why worry? Just follow what > they say faithfully. They are also your Guru although they gave no diksha. > > A Guru and diksha is important in spiritual advancement. > > My two cents. > Jai Maa > > JAY. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Pranam, Nancyji. Don't forget... We, too are here for you. Through Jagadamba, we are connected. Wth Love Shankaree Let my every word be a prayer to Thee, Every movement of my hands a ritual gesture to Thee, Every step I take a circumambulation of Thy image, Every morsel I eat a rite of sacrifice to Thee, Every time I lay down a prostration at Thy feet; Every act of personal pleasure and all else that I do, Let it all be a form of worshiping Thee. " From Verse 27 of Shri Aadi Shankara's Saundaryalahari ________________________________ " RemoteVwr " <RemoteVwr Saturday, 16 May, 2009 19:35:13 Re: Diksha or No Diksha? Diksha or No Diksha? Guru or No Guru? I live in the middle of small town redneckville, where the closest Satsang is more than 100 miles away and there aren't even any Hindus here other than me, this little speck, humming my little vibration into the vastness of the infinite universe. My Guru is in Kerala. If I get lonely or confused, I, like Trotakacharya, just fling myself in Mother's lap. She takes care of everything, and I keep going. Triambakam Yajamahe, etc. Jai Ma-a-a-a Her devoted little sheep, Nancy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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