Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 || Sri Matre Namah || Could any knowledgeable list members explain the relationship between punya and karma kshaya, please? If punya, accumulated from sadhana, et al. (in conjunction with a couple of other factors), is the fuel or motive force required to power or catalyze higher progression along the spiritual path, then it seems like punya and karma kshaya or dissolution of karmas must somehow be linked. For, if one aspect of certain practices is to help wash away karmas--think of the preliminary devata tarpanas in some Sri Vidya schools with the Parashurama Kalpa Sutra as a primary text--and such practices help clear the way forward for the sadhaka, then the dissolution of karmas is one part of the spiritual journey, since freedom from one's karma bandha--karma vimocana--is integral in the movement towards the jivanmukta state or sahaja samadhi. Is it that through sadhana, punya is accumulated, which can then either be " reinvested " into one's atma anveshana to get further spiritual " returns " (e.g., destruction of certain karmas) or is otherwise depleted by being used to help increase the likelihood of the desired goal in a prayoga, prayer, or some other method being realized, regardless of whether the intended beneficiary is oneself or another person? (I apologize for the crude, reductionistic analogy, but I am trying to clearly grasp the dynamics here.) C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Is this an academic question, or do you have a personal or practical reason for asking? [i have no idea what the answer is; I'm just curious about the question.] , " intimationsofinfinity " <intimationsofinfinity wrote: > > || Sri Matre Namah || > > Could any knowledgeable list members explain the relationship between > punya and karma kshaya, please? > > If punya, accumulated from sadhana, et al. (in conjunction with a couple > of other factors), is the fuel or motive force required to power or > catalyze higher progression along the spiritual path, then it seems like > punya and karma kshaya or dissolution of karmas must somehow be linked. > > For, if one aspect of certain practices is to help wash away > karmas--think of the preliminary devata tarpanas in some Sri Vidya > schools with the Parashurama Kalpa Sutra as a primary text--and such > practices help clear the way forward for the sadhaka, then the > dissolution of karmas is one part of the spiritual journey, since > freedom from one's karma bandha--karma vimocana--is integral in the > movement towards the jivanmukta state or sahaja samadhi. > > Is it that through sadhana, punya is accumulated, which can then either > be " reinvested " into one's atma anveshana to get further spiritual > " returns " (e.g., destruction of certain karmas) or is otherwise depleted > by being used to help increase the likelihood of the desired goal in a > prayoga, prayer, or some other method being realized, regardless of > whether the intended beneficiary is oneself or another person? (I > apologize for the crude, reductionistic analogy, but I am trying to > clearly grasp the dynamics here.) > > C. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 My guru used to say " do not read books till you have done at least one purascharana " . There are books and books and there are paths and paths and liniage specific special practices. Books will not say this belongs to which path or parampara. So we may feel there are contradictions and get confused and misled. So a newbie upasaka should limit himself to practices one is authorised to and stop trying to be an encyclopaedia. When one has learnt the finer nuances of one's own parampara one can read extensively. As for prayogas, until one is a realised soul one should shun them. They will deplete the power one gathers by practices. Even then, in my parampara, one should do NOTHING that is for the self. I have observed that doing something for oneself results in no or little result at the same time greatly reduces one's accumulated merit and power. An upasaka should strive for liberation. Then the question will arise " what about SV being a bhukti mukti daayini? " - one that grants material and spiritual progress. My personal experience has been that bhukti will come on its own - that which is appropriate - mukti being the end result. My 2 cents --- On Fri, 4/3/09, msbauju <msbauju wrote: msbauju <msbauju Re: Relationship Between Punya and Karma Kshaya Friday, April 3, 2009, 2:34 AM Is this an academic question, or do you have a personal or practical reason for asking? [i have no idea what the answer is; I'm just curious about the question.] , " intimationsofinfin ity " <intimationsofinfin ity wrote: > > || Sri Matre Namah || > > Could any knowledgeable list members explain the relationship between > punya and karma kshaya, please? > > If punya, accumulated from sadhana, et al. (in conjunction with a couple > of other factors), is the fuel or motive force required to power or > catalyze higher progression along the spiritual path, then it seems like > punya and karma kshaya or dissolution of karmas must somehow be linked. > > For, if one aspect of certain practices is to help wash away > karmas--think of the preliminary devata tarpanas in some Sri Vidya > schools with the Parashurama Kalpa Sutra as a primary text--and such > practices help clear the way forward for the sadhaka, then the > dissolution of karmas is one part of the spiritual journey, since > freedom from one's karma bandha--karma vimocana--is integral in the > movement towards the jivanmukta state or sahaja samadhi. > > Is it that through sadhana, punya is accumulated, which can then either > be " reinvested " into one's atma anveshana to get further spiritual > " returns " (e.g., destruction of certain karmas) or is otherwise depleted > by being used to help increase the likelihood of the desired goal in a > prayoga, prayer, or some other method being realized, regardless of > whether the intended beneficiary is oneself or another person? (I > apologize for the crude, reductionistic analogy, but I am trying to > clearly grasp the dynamics here.) > > C. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 @ Msbauju: To answer your question, my query is not academic, and I have a practical reason for asking: consistent and appropriate sadhana generates merit, which merit can be used in various ways. I sought to learn how this merit produces spiritual growth and progress when it is reinvested in sadhana. (I was already aware that using this punya in particular ways for particular ends, whether for oneself or another person, depletes this store of merit.) @ Venerable Kochu, Thank you for your valuable feedback, in whose validity I know I can trust by dint of your long and extensive experience with Sri Vidya. In this case, I wasn't asking about any particular practices, whether in my own parampara or that of another: I essentially just wanted to discover whether it is the application of punya—whatever form the application happens to take is unimportant to the present question—that destroys our karmas, or whether it is some other process; that's all. Believe it or not, the source of what I asked about wasn't something I had read about in any book, but rather from an intuition I had that I was looking to have clarified. I am certainly not in any position to do prayogas, and even praying for someone can apparently reduce one's store of punya. I am definitely more interested in investing whatever merit from sadhana into further sadhana and not into accomplishing particular aims; I am not doing any practices which I am not authorized to do or which I have not received from gurumukha. So, there are specific ways the merit accumulated from sadhana is reapplied to the spiritual process, which ways one should learn from one's Guru; that much I grasp. ***My initial question could be boiled down to an equation: does Proper Application of Punya = Reduction in One's Karmas? If yes, how?*** (It needn't make reference to any specific technique, method, krama, devata, or mantra, as how these are approached may vary by lineage, I am well aware; the mechanics of the process would be the same, however, even though the approaches may differ, since the same " laws " are in play.) ----------------- So, out of all that, there is a new question, one which cuts to the chase, I think: when, if ever, is it advisable to ask other experienced upasakas questions relating to the spiritual path (in this case, Sri Vidya)? Or should one only direct such questions to one's Guru and his or her chief disciples? (Part of the answer I have gotten on the query directly above from asking such an experienced upasaka is that general spiritual questions can usually be answered by experienced and well-versed practitioners, but that specifics should generally be addressed by one's Guru, in the interest of avoiding confusion arising from different lineage traditions and also from receiving guidance that conflicts with guidance received from one's own Guru, whose word is the final arbiter for the questioner. ) I think asking certain questions must be valid, since the practitioner isn't expected to remain completely in the dark as to the dynamics of the process, are they? (This question isn't entirely rhetorical, i.e., I could be mistaken here; maybe knowing how something works can be a hindrance, but must it necessarily be so?) To cultivate complete faith in whatever is given by the Guru is critical, of course, but is there harm in also learning the underpinnings of what one is doing and why? ----------------- Respected Kochu, you make reference below to " the power one gathers by practices. " Is punya/merit considered equivalent to power in this context, then? That is, punya/merit/power is the end result of properly performed sadhana? ***All of that can be reduced to a few philosophical questions, which I pose to any interested list member: * To what extent is knowledge about the mechanics of various aspects of the spiritual process and upasana useful, and to what extent is it an obstacle? * How can we make knowledge another helpful tool in our toolbox? * What is the proper relationship of an upasaka to knowledge?*** C. , sankara menon <kochu1tz wrote: > > My guru used to say " do not read books till you have done at least one purascharana " . > > There are books and books and there are paths and paths and liniage specific special practices. > Books will not say this belongs to which path or parampara. So we may feel there are contradictions and get confused and misled. > > So a newbie upasaka should limit himself to practices one is authorised to and stop trying to be an encyclopaedia. When one has learnt the finer nuances of one's own parampara one can read extensively. > > As for prayogas, until one is a realised soul one should shun them. They will deplete the power one gathers by practices. Even then, in my parampara, one should do NOTHING that is for the self. I have observed that doing something for oneself results in no or little result at the same time greatly reduces one's accumulated merit and power. > An upasaka should strive for liberation. > Then the question will arise " what about SV being a bhukti mukti daayini? " - one that grants material and spiritual progress. My personal experience has been that bhukti will come on its own - that which is appropriate - mukti being the end result. > > My 2 cents > > --- On Fri, 4/3/09, msbauju msbauju wrote: > > msbauju msbauju > Re: Relationship Between Punya and Karma Kshaya > > Friday, April 3, 2009, 2:34 AM > > Is this an academic question, or do you have a personal or > practical reason for asking? > > [i have no idea what the answer is; I'm just curious about > the question.] > > , " intimationsofinfin ity " <intimationsofinfin ity@ wrote: > > > > || Sri Matre Namah || > > > > Could any knowledgeable list members explain the relationship between > > punya and karma kshaya, please? > > > > If punya, accumulated from sadhana, et al. (in conjunction with a couple > > of other factors), is the fuel or motive force required to power or > > catalyze higher progression along the spiritual path, then it seems like > > punya and karma kshaya or dissolution of karmas must somehow be linked. > > > > For, if one aspect of certain practices is to help wash away > > karmas--think of the preliminary devata tarpanas in some Sri Vidya > > schools with the Parashurama Kalpa Sutra as a primary text--and such > > practices help clear the way forward for the sadhaka, then the > > dissolution of karmas is one part of the spiritual journey, since > > freedom from one's karma bandha--karma vimocana--is integral in the > > movement towards the jivanmukta state or sahaja samadhi. > > > > Is it that through sadhana, punya is accumulated, which can then either > > be " reinvested " into one's atma anveshana to get further spiritual > > " returns " (e.g., destruction of certain karmas) or is otherwise depleted > > by being used to help increase the likelihood of the desired goal in a > > prayoga, prayer, or some other method being realized, regardless of > > whether the intended beneficiary is oneself or another person? (I > > apologize for the crude, reductionistic analogy, but I am trying to > > clearly grasp the dynamics here.) > > > > C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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