Of the Contaminated and the Corrupt..........[Finding other Devi worshippers

[Guest guest]

In , Amaya Kalarathri

<theilluminatedcelestial wrote:

 

[1] That is an interesting topic to bring up, and I think the whole topic of

siddhi or even any reward all together seems to, at some point, become a goal

for various people. To an extent, it probably even becomes a goal for us

unintentionally (or intentionally; I should not judge) and we have to always

watch out for that concern.>

 

 

My response : Precisely its part and parcel of our upbringing. We must set goals

and work towards that goal. Its a form of mental conditioning. Its like

clilmbing the mountain. What is more important to us... reaching the top or the

process of climbing itself. The whole process of clilmbing is where the

transformation of the self is taking place where we should pay more attetnion

and concentrate. The goal will always be there if our process is right.

 

[2] This goes for all groups, no matter their religion or spiritual path of

choosing. for to say that its in all the religious and spiritual group.

 

My response : That is where I disagree with you on this.You are

generalising.....based on your limited knowledge of the spiritual belief of

others that you have not encounter yet.

 

[3] My knowledge is contaminated in the sense that it might not always be

correct and I am willing to admit there might be biases and limitations to what

I know. Even with realizing my own limitations (and realizing I have yet to

realize more), though, I have very recently (as in a few days ago) made a

resolution to start counting my blessings this upcoming year.

 

My response : So my question is What is correct and what is not? Who is to be

the judge of it. You have your limitations and its that limitation is what you

are and where you are right now. How can you call it contiminated? What you

think is right at this moment in time given the circumstances. But as you go

through and you learn and gain experience you change accordingly. Yes?

 

 

[4] The sea lion is an interesting analogy to use to our spiritualism. After

some thought on the matter, though, I think I have an idea as to how we are like

the sea lion. Sea lions are rewarded with the very essence of what they need

to survive. If they do not do the tricks, as it were, they sometimes do not get

as much nourishment as they should...

BUT...not all of us are in need of getting food put on the table for our selves

and our family. For some of us, these needs are taken care of. Sometimes we

probably do more than necessary in the physical world when our physical needs

are already taken care of.

 

The sea lion has become what they are because they are trap in the zoo. They are

captured and put in that zoo against their will? If you place them in the sea

would they not escape into the deep ocean where they should be? That is what its

all about : when we are being trap or we trap ourselves in our own illusion, we

become just like the sealion, at the mercy of the zoo keepers who supposedly

give us the fishes they think the sea lion would eat. But in the deep ocean

don't the sea lion have many other choices?. The sea lion does any choice? to

perform the tricks to get the extra fish? Those who refuse to perform what

happen to them?

 

Yes you are right for us... these needs are taken care of... so we become so

dependent. So like the Slave why bother to venture out.. to work hard,

Everything is there for us.... now I understand why some slave refuse to move on

and be free. Because freedom is so hard sometimes. You need to defend

yourself... to find your own food. SO for some even if you open the gate of

freedom for them, they would not want to go... they are so comfortable in their

little comfort zone.

[Guest guest]

This siddhi, that siddhi... What is siddhi? Simply " perfection. " Perfection

of what? Well, it's not about powers. It's not about " I want a girlfriend "

or " I want to heal my mother " or " I want to get lots of money and be

successful in business. " That's the delusion that keeps us enslaved to the

proverbial seal trainer, isn't it? And it's a perfect illustration of why

Tantra isn't for everyone.

 

The problem with a lot of these paths, religions, etc., is that the promise

of salvation from our troubles is always in the future, the next life, the

next moment, with this teacher or that saint or that deity, etc. And the

enemy is always the ego, the devil, the lady that looked at you funny on the

subway, the bitchy co-worker, etc. But where is the struggle, really? Where

is perfection? Ramana Maharshi put it very well when he said that what we

have to realize is that we are already realized. (Oh if it were just that

easy! It can be very deceiving as a teaching here in California, let me tell

ya...) But as Nagarjuna noted, we get wrapped up in the illusion of

enlightenment on the way to enlightenment, we mistake the initial stages of

progress for the thing itself, and then stop thinking that we've arrived.

 

" Hey, enlightenment! I'm here! Wahoo! I've arrived! My work is done! " That's

right about when MAA says, " oh, you think you're a tough guy/gal? We'll

see. "

 

We sometimes forget that yoga means " discipline " as much as (or more than)

it means " union. " Looking and searching is fine and healthy - each of us has

to find our own path, and it's good to have many sources of knowledge and

perspective - but perpetual spiritual tourism is ultimately

counterproductive.

 

Discipline has a poor reputation, associated with drudgery and militarism.

But even the best musician can only soar and improvise in a piece of music

when the basic melody and basic skills have been perfected through hundreds,

thousands of hours of practice. And it's difficult, painful, joyous, boring,

exhilarating, tireless, vitally important work. And maybe here we can learn

something important from the housewife, who does her thankless work day in

and day out for no payment other than the knowledge that her family is being

fed, bathed, clothed, etc. She does it out of love and loyalty. I am also

thinking of the women all around the world who have to spend hours and hours

every day just finding and preparing clean drinking water for their

children, something many of us take completely for granted with our running

taps and reliable municipal water systems. These women have a lot to teach

us sadhakas. If we treat the simple act of pranayama like these women treat

their daily search for something as basic and vital as water, how deeply

could we take ourselves with this simple sadhana!

 

I only say all this because it's been part of my own fumbling and stumbling

along the path. So how can I treat anyone else with anything other than

compassion and understanding? How can I do anything other than laugh at and

with myself? I'm learning to trust that everybody will eventually find their

way through, including myself.

 

I do enjoy the discussion, though.

 

jai MA kamesvari

-kulasundari

 

Sri Kamakhya Mahavidya Mandir

www.kamakhyamandir.org

 

 

 

 

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 6:49 PM, NMadasamy <nora wrote:

 

>

>

>

>

> In <%40>,

> Amaya Kalarathri <theilluminatedcelestial wrote: I do agree with this

> point even if I bring my own limited (and probably contaminated) knowledge

> to the debate.>

>

> I often wondered what do one mean when they say their knowledge is

> contaminated or other accuse of the another of polluted, contaminated or

> corrupt the other people's mind. What do they mean? Can anyone try to

> explain it to me? You know over the years, I've read the same issues brought

> up in this group over and over again... " Recite this mantra... it will give

> you what? Siddhi... Recite this... do this... you will get this siddhi " When

> ever I hear those, I makes me angry. Just angry.... is this what we all have

> come to become... our sadhana is all about getting siddhi? Have we not

> become so corrupt? Spiritually corrupt!

>

> I have the same argument with the Islamist and the Christian groups several

> times in the other forum... " Become one of us... and you are guaranteed a

> place in heaven " ... " We have the key to heaven " etc... And so I ask both of

> them the same [the Islamist and the Christians] " You need to bribe your

> people to worship your LORD to secure a place in heaven? And you thereafter

> frighten them with Hell to make sure they to your set code of

> conduct. You use the whip/cane and stone to threaten them that if they do

> not behave accordingly? Why? Have we become so corrupt? "

>

> One of the Islamist got angry and told me " we have this needs, desires… the

> ego… "

>

> " Ah! And so the only way to tame this need, this desire and this ego is

> when you feed them with " food " of illusion. Stories about heaven and hell?

> The same type of story that your people have been feeding those suicide

> bombers… virgins in heaven? " I asked them. I'm still waiting for them to

> give me the answer till today… none have come back. One Muslim argued " We

> must try to make our religion attractive…. " Why this need to make it

> attractive? And How? By promising them what! 20% discount in hell if you

> believe that Islam is the true path, and 101% if you convert?

>

> No I'm not here to bash the Muslim or the Christians or any group. I am

> here to just want us to reflect back at our actions. What are we doing to

> our spiritualism? We have become so materialistic that we corrupt our own

> spiritualism.

>

> I love to go to the Zoo, but I always leave with this feeling: Sadness. I

> often wondered by. Couple of months ago I went to the zoo with a group

> students. As usual the attraction of the day in the zoo was the animal show.

> So we all join is, sat together and watch as this sea lion doing all the

> stunts and after each stunt, they are rewarded with what? Fishes by the

> trainers. Then all the audience clap " wah! The sealion is so smart… so good "

>

> Now I understand this feeling of sadness: Have we all become like the

> Sealion too?

>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

*My response : Precisely its part and parcel of our upbringing. We must set

goals and work towards that goal. Its a form of mental conditioning. Its

like clilmbing the mountain. What is more important to us... reaching the

top or the process of climbing itself. The whole process of clilmbing is

where the transformation of the self is taking place where we should pay

more attetnion and concentrate. The goal will always be there if our process

is right. *

 

I'm reminded of something my music guru's guru Pran Nathji said. " Raga is a

living soul. Raga is between the notes. " That is, we learn the notes of the

raga, we can sing each note and sing the attendant melody. But we won't

really be singing the raga until we learn to experience its soul, find its

movements, learn its personality, express its character. Between the notes

is where raga happens. Same with the spiritual path. Between the goals of

sadhana is where the sadhana and transformation happens.

 

jai MA kamesvari

-kulasundari

 

Sri Kamakhya Mahavidya Mandir

www.kamakhyamandir.org

 

 

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 11:09 PM, NMadasamy <nora wrote:

 

>

>

> In <%40>,

> Amaya Kalarathri <theilluminatedcelestial wrote:

>

> [1] That is an interesting topic to bring up, and I think the whole topic

> of siddhi or even any reward all together seems to, at some point, become a

> goal for various people. To an extent, it probably even becomes a goal for

> us unintentionally (or intentionally; I should not judge) and we have to

> always watch out for that concern.>

>

> My response : Precisely its part and parcel of our upbringing. We must set

> goals and work towards that goal. Its a form of mental conditioning. Its

> like clilmbing the mountain. What is more important to us... reaching the

> top or the process of climbing itself. The whole process of clilmbing is

> where the transformation of the self is taking place where we should pay

> more attetnion and concentrate. The goal will always be there if our process

> is right.

>

> [2] This goes for all groups, no matter their religion or spiritual path of

> choosing. for to say that its in all the religious and spiritual group.

>

> My response : That is where I disagree with you on this.You are

> generalising.....based on your limited knowledge of the spiritual belief of

> others that you have not encounter yet.

>

> [3] My knowledge is contaminated in the sense that it might not always be

> correct and I am willing to admit there might be biases and limitations to

> what I know. Even with realizing my own limitations (and realizing I have

> yet to realize more), though, I have very recently (as in a few days ago)

> made a resolution to start counting my blessings this upcoming year.

>

> My response : So my question is What is correct and what is not? Who is to

> be the judge of it. You have your limitations and its that limitation is

> what you are and where you are right now. How can you call it contiminated?

> What you think is right at this moment in time given the circumstances. But

> as you go through and you learn and gain experience you change accordingly.

> Yes?

>

> [4] The sea lion is an interesting analogy to use to our spiritualism.

> After some thought on the matter, though, I think I have an idea as to how

> we are like the sea lion. Sea lions are rewarded with the very essence of

> what they need to survive. If they do not do the tricks, as it were, they

> sometimes do not get as much nourishment as they should...

>

> BUT...not all of us are in need of getting food put on the table for our

> selves and our family. For some of us, these needs are taken care of.

> Sometimes we probably do more than necessary in the physical world when our

> physical needs are already taken care of.

>

> The sea lion has become what they are because they are trap in the zoo.

> They are captured and put in that zoo against their will? If you place them

> in the sea would they not escape into the deep ocean where they should be?

> That is what its all about : when we are being trap or we trap ourselves in

> our own illusion, we become just like the sealion, at the mercy of the zoo

> keepers who supposedly give us the fishes they think the sea lion would eat.

> But in the deep ocean don't the sea lion have many other choices?. The sea

> lion does any choice? to perform the tricks to get the extra fish? Those who

> refuse to perform what happen to them?

>

> Yes you are right for us... these needs are taken care of... so we become

> so dependent. So like the Slave why bother to venture out.. to work hard,

> Everything is there for us.... now I understand why some slave refuse to

> move on and be free. Because freedom is so hard sometimes. You need to

> defend yourself... to find your own food. SO for some even if you open the

> gate of freedom for them, they would not want to go... they are so

> comfortable in their little comfort zone.

>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

> [1]My response : That is where I disagree with you on this.You are

> generalising.....based on your limited knowledge of the spiritual belief of

> others that you have not encounter yet.

>

 

 

 

> More than fair enough. I am still learning. What I meant to convey was

> that no one, regardless of their path, is immune to the materialism

> described in the previous posts. Human beings are not completely immune to

> the unintentional focus on solely material rewards. On the other hand, I am

> willing to admit to being wrong when my awareness of other paths and

> individuals' experiences increases.

>

> [2] My response : So my question is What is correct and what is not? Who is

> to be the judge of it. You have your limitations and its that limitation is

> what you are and where you are right now. How can you call it contiminated?

> What you think is right at this moment in time given the circumstances. But

> as you go through and you learn and gain experience you change accordingly.

> Yes?

>

 

 

 

> I would certainly hope I do change as I gain more experience. Otherwise, I

> think the stagnation would be counter productive to spiritual growth. It is

> my hope I will continue having opportunities to learn and gain experience.

>

>

> [3] Yes you are right for us... these needs are taken care of... so we

> become so dependent. So like the Slave why bother to venture out.. to work

> hard, Everything is there for us.... now I understand why some slave refuse

> to move on and be free. Because freedom is so hard sometimes. You need to

> defend yourself... to find your own food. SO for some even if you open the

> gate of freedom for them, they would not want to go... they are so

> comfortable in their little comfort zone.

>

> In some of my first psychology courses, an instructor introduced the

> concept of the law of continuity when we began to explore the theories

> surrounding perception. A key part of this law is that even though someone

> may want change and seek change, they sometimes, even unintentionally, keep

> themselves from change because the " new area " is something they do not

> know. I think we get stuck in this law, sometimes even unwittingly, when it

> comes to our spirituality as well as our life experiences (and for some,

> they are one and the same).

>

> This is a theory in the western social sciences, but I think it is quite

> analogous to our initial fear of going beyond the stage we are in our

> spiritual development. Even knowing going beyond the " present " stage leads

> to more freedom, we become reluctant. We do not know what the next stage

> will bring...so we try to keep in our personal status quo, even when part of

> us wants to go forward.

>

>

> Thank you everyone who has so far contributed to this discussion. I am

> learning much from the discussion and each word brings me more to reflect

> on.

>

>

> Namaste.

>

> Jai Ma!

>

> Sincerely,

> Arya/Christina

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

> _g_,_._,___

>