Guest guest Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 You're right, Doc. And it's a wonderful debate. i was so much in awe of what Jag and Furat had already written that i didn't feel i could add anything myself as worthy, and probably i'm guessing that many others felt that way too. On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 06:52:33 -0700 dr_balwinder <dr_balwinder wrote: >I am surprised that no one (not even Jagbir) has posted regarding >the >topic raised by brother Furat. Anyway here is my small(although >long >post) contribution : > >First and foremost we have to be very careful when we listen to >> >experienced SY because I am quite sure many of us would have come >> >across cases where the " experienced " yogi says/does something which >> >even to a non-SY would seem unwise. >I respect the leaders in SY but will only take the words of SM as >the >gospel truth and when an experienced SY speaks, I will try my level >> >best to see the good in what he/she says. >If the experienced ones are the likes of veteranyogi and zenyogi >I >must say that I would not take their sayings seriously for reasons >> >which are obvious to some of us. >I have seen many an " experienced " yogi( being long in SY , look >like >been practicing SY very well for years etc) say things and make >> >decisions which even a newcomer to SY has the discretion to point >out >is wrong. >That is why I always enlighten newcomers who seems to be in awe >> >that " Wow you have been in SY for so long you must be really >experienced and at a different level " . My answer to that is you >can >overtake me in the spiritual ascent within months if not weeks if >you >practice it well and also depending on the purity of your heart >, >innocence etc etc. > >I agree that personal experience and the realization of the heart, > >and that the conviction of the heart plays a major role but how >to >put a seeker on the path to achieve that is the big question. > >I seriously doubt that Jagbir or Gregoire started their work with >the >objective of providing SR.IMO it is more to educate people eg at >> >adishakti how all the religions have a common platform and how SY >and >SM is a common denominator for all . This has been done quite well >by >using the respective religious texts to convey the message which >IMO >is one of the best way to get across to anyone on the web who has >a >religious faith. >Why re-invent the wheel when we can use all the relevant writings >in >each and every major religious text to convey the message SM and >SY >is conveying . Thus at the same time get them to practice SY >meditation within the context of their religions first and once >they >realize who SM is they can start going deeper into SY and thus start >> >their journey of spiritual ascent. >I would like to qualify me statement here that this does not mean >> >spiritual ascent can never be established without SY but it will >be >much , much tougher for even the most dedicated soul. > >The websites will help in the sense they open a person's mind to >the >possibility of being connected to the divine within the religious >> >framework of whatever religion they are currently practicing. >I do not think that many who will be coming across the website will >> >jump and say " Eurika , I have found salvation " . But IMO I believe >> >that many will be intrigued enough to search further and many more >> >will also be much more open and enthusiastic when they come across >a >real-life SY trying to spread SY. >Secondly , there is tremendous amount of information about SY's >> >connectivity to each and every religion on the sites. > >Some of the problems which are quite obvious using the net and how >SY >is portrayed now are >1)how will they come across websites on SY >google search on yoga – SY appeared 57th on the list >google search on yoga & spirituality – 40th on the list > >2)once they come across it on the web or in real life what will >be >the great difference b/w SY and the hundreds of yogas being offered >> >which will make them choose SY over another from of yoga >- many offered health , physical & mental wellbeing , stress relief >, >some talk about vibes/energies , some about kundalini , chakras >, >being connected etc etc. > > > >Confusion of words (Shabda Jalam) can only occur if a person invents >> >his own theory but if we use authentic (which can also be questioned >> >by some) religious texts, I do not see any confusion of words. >We have Mother's talks to guide us and most of her messages are >> >rather clear and so are lots of religious texts. >As far as Mother's talks are concerned there is no room for error >in >case of those on tapes/CDs and for the older religious texts , if >we >have reasons to doubt their 100% authenticity we should use our >> >discretion. > >As for the case put forward on how Muslims will come in SY, I cannot >> >contribute much since my depth of Muslim religion is not so much >> >despite living in a Muslim country.Nevertheless I do tend to agree >> >that because of the Muslim world's spiritual awareness it will accept >> >SY instantly on a mass level when they realize the message of SM > & >Qiyamah. > >To me the person who conducts public programmes , the person who >> >brings people to public programmes , the person who does even a teeny >> >weenie bit in spreading SY has my utmost respect. > >I have not lived in EU or North America to be able to see or comment >> >on how music can enable SY to spread rapidly on a big scale among >the >younger generation the way Furat feels it can be used. > >I see no harm in spreading the message about Last Judgment over >the >web to a person who has never had SR although I believe that if >I >meet a person in real life I would give the person SR first before >> >even proceeding to talk about Last Judgment. >Can anybody feel he has had SR after having attended a couple of >once- >a-week programs – very few and far between although a lot do feel >the >cool breeze but are unable to fathom what it really means. > > >I myself do not know why SY never or hardly ever speak about the >Last >Judgment – it is as if Last Judgment means Apocalypse the way it >is >avoided being used.Mother has used it so often and I remember her >> >even having said for us to announce it. It has been called the Last >> >Judgment / Resurrection Time / Qiyamah / Golden Age of Emancipation >/ >Age of Aquarius / Time of Rebirth . > >Mother has said that it has come and it is time to take your second >> >birth and it has been made very beautiful, and very tender, and >delicate, and does not disturb you. I do not see any problem >announcing it as long as we do not make it look as apocalypse or >that >it means the end is near which is farthest from the truth of what >is >actually happening in the Age of Aquarius. > >Jai Shree Mataji > >Balwinder > > >shriadishakti , " furat " <springingriver> >> >wrote: >> >> Dear SAS members, Aunty Lyndal, Jagbir and others, >> >> >> I've waited long to say something: >> >> I have noticed that those among us, who are dairy and sincere >in >> their desire to spread SY, take heed and seriously consider Jagbir' >> >> challenge to start announcing the Last Judgement. And yet because >> >of >> that find themselves a bit confused over this idea. >> >> The experienced ones say that it is not in our nature as humble >> >> seekers to force ourselves through the minds of the public, when >it >> is solely the personal experience and the realisation of the heart, > >> which moreover can only be passed on by those of the conviction >of >> the heart, that leaves an everlasting impression on the audience, > >> seeker or not. >> >> adishakti.org is a wonderful website, whose main use for the future >> >> would seem to be educating the newly realised masses. But so far >> >some >> might argue that it is likely that more people have received their >> >SR >> upon having visited the official website, rather than Jagbir's >or >> Gregoire's, for that matter (and though this is a bit exaggerated, > >I >> hope you get my point). >> >> >> My opinion on this matter is that this is only another case of >> >Shabda >> Jalam, confusion of words, between Sys. >> >> The reason is basically twofold: >> >> 1. Jagbir speaks out of the religious mentality of his own >background >> (a Sikh grown up in a modern Muslim society) and; >> 2. In his own capacity as a scholar. >> >> For it is absolutely true that: >> >> 1. Muslims do just sit and await for somebody to start announcing >> >the >> Qiyamat and the arrival of the Mahdi. >> >> However, because of the unfavourable political situation this >> >cannot >> happen more openly yet. The Muslim world is, after all, one >cultural >> unit, so if one thing appears at one of its corners, it has to >> >spread >> at once to the other. It is most probable that the Muslim world >> >will >> be the last place to hear the News, but because of its spiritual >> >> awareness will accept it instantly on a mass level, whereas the >> >> Western world would still be struggling to comprehend the whole >> >point >> of spiritual ascent (which is the price for having been the first >> >to >> hear and receive few but strong yogis). >> >> So in order for a suspicious seeker of Muslim background to stay >in >> SY and become just as pious in his daily meditation and devotion >to >> Shri Mataji as in his previous ritualistic lifestyle, he has to >be >> simply informed of the true essence of SY as being the `Ihsan', > >i.e. >> fulfilment of Islam, and HHSM being the Mahdi, directly upon his >SR. >> >> >> 2. If the junkies were the first to come, scholars (including >those >> of religion) will be the very last ones. Unless the mind of the >> >> scholar is satisfied and the new knowledge made fit within the >> >> context of his earlier gathered info and constructed systems, he >> >> cannot move on further to open up his heart. This was actually >what >> happened to me (short but long story) and, I reckon, even to >Jagbir. >> >> A forceful way of proofs and argumentation may be at times very >> >> effective with people like that, and sometimes the only way. >> Ultimately it is the combination of both the impressive clear >> >> reasoning of the mind of a Syi as well as his/her unusual self- >> >> confidence and joy that make the mental ones elaborate twice before >> >> going back to the dull but comfortable everyday life (however, >this >> time with a memory that might at times resurface). >> >> >> So I do not see any particular fault with Jagbir's approach, except >> >> that he might be forgetting one thing, the very same thing that >we >> forget as well when listening to him: what he is doing is because >> >of >> what his intuition, impulse or inspiration tells him to do, and >> >that >> different people have different such impulses. >> >> I can tell you that being here in Sweden I can see clearly the >way >SY >> would soon spread everywhere here and the rest of Europe (well, > not >> necessarily SY, but, say, en-masse SR, which one day might be >> >easier >> to do here than in Russia or India). This place, just like Jagbir's >> >> Canada, is a country of the Right Vishuddhi -- no amount of talk >> >will >> ever get you anywhere. And yet from here you might make yourself >> >> heard to the rest of the world. >> >> It is amazing to see how a few tunes of music can make these people >> >> relax at once (though it's highly tense otherwise) and smile widely >> >> like small children only after minutes. >> >> Those in the greatest danger zone here are the young and the >> teenagers, because they don't know the Truth. But if anybody is >> >> seeking anything here, it is they. What is it that makes them go >to >> all these rock and hip-hop concerts and jump like crazy? It is >the >> sensation of their own Kundalini trying to rise! >> >> Imagine, here everybody you meet would ask you " what do you listen >> >> to? " . But in India they would say " whom do you worship? " . A few >> >years >> ago there were some Hare-Krsna punk rock bands that made the notion >> >> of spirituality into something cool among the 14-year-olds. In >the >> same way, one day it will be cooler to be a Yuva Shakti warrior >and >> go around with Shri Mataji T-shirts, thinking that everything >else >is >> woossy, than to be a skater, skinhead or train karate, before >this >> would grow into a real SY. >> >> So what would be the magic trick? >> >> An average good Kavali group that enjoys tirelessly travelling >> >around >> between summer festivals for weeks and months, always joined by >> >local >> Sys where they come, and teaching a totally new form and concept >of >> collective enjoyment in music, i.e. that the people in the audience >> >> and on the stage are not two different entities, but all are >supposed >> to sing together (and if otherwise you should not express stronger >> >> emotions, here the point is a total spontaneity and openness of >> >> heart, the more unrestrained the better), allowing a new discovery: >> >> that the ONLY true purpose of music is clearing out the Subtle >> >> System, which is far better than alcohol. >> >> Then it would take only some time before all these bhajans, ragas, > >> kavalis and the whole new trend would become widely popular with >> >> young people and, ultimately, the rest of the society, as this >sort >> of music doesn't require the understanding of a certain generation >> >> etc. >> >> >> But simply talking about strange religious stuff, such as >> Resurrection and Doomsday, causes a bit of a problem. Spirituality >> >> may be hip, but the Bible and the Koran are tales of entertainment >> >of >> the past. How can you talk of the Last Judgement with somebody >who >> hasn't even had SR? How can anybody feel he has had SR after having >> >> attended a couple of once-a-week programs? How can you talk of >> >these >> things in a society that doesn't have the basic traditional >> understanding of the civilisation having a concrete purpose and >the >> evolution moving not randomly but towards a goal? >> >> Basically such issues can only be discussed with sincere seekers >of >> Truth. And in that regard I agree that it is dishonest not to >> >provide >> them with the full information. But as far as I can remember, >I >> myself felt this way only in the first months after coming into >> >> contact with a local collective. >> >> >> The misunderstanding I am talking about here, is that the time >> >might >> very well be ripe to start addressing the people who are supposed >> >to >> be the experts on these issues, clerics and scholars, the self- >> >> proclaimed keepers of this knowledge. But it does it mean going >to >a >> local church, requesting to hold a lecture? >> >> >> Thank you, everybody. I am looking forward for a feedback and >would >> like to hear different viewpoints on this issue. >> >> >> Jai Shri Mataji! >> >> furat > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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