Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Dear Anuj and semira, Before you read on, I'd just like to request my dear brothers and sisters, that if you wish to carry this debate further, then lets stay away from mud-slinging. If you want to state something you firmly believe in then please stick to to the numbered points at the end of this mail. This does not apply to Jagbir, beause he's going to get after me rather than what I said. Jai Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi, the sakshat Adishakti!! Anuj - I cannot recall saying sahaja yogis are have nots. In your zest to support jagbir, please refrain from giving false quotes. If at all there is anything remotely close to that, then please take a direct quote in full context, not jagbirs rebuttal as he has a gift of playing with words and distorting the message. The sahaja family is my own. I would not even go so far as jagbir has gone to call them ugly ducklings etc. I dont find anyone to be ugly or beautiful. We are just children of the same mother. I have realised the gravity of this statement to much greater extent in the past months and growth in sahaja yoga. Semira - Once you are realised and have realised you are the spirit, then it becomes possible to believe in the last judgement. Please try to tell a man lost in worldly affairs about this and measure the credibility he assigns you. Now, a normal sahaja yogi can bring in say at least 10 people a year? yes, thats a fair number even for someone who is not over zealous. Can you tell me if adishakti.com, for the amount of web space it occupies has gotten 10 people into sahaja yoga since the time it came into existence? I really really doubt that. But, thats where it has has failed. It has seen success too. Its made people like semira, anuj...and many others believe that after they die, they will be sitting in front of matajis throne in the afterlife and meditating alongside Kash and Arvinder who will be some 30 odd years old by then. Also in attendance will be lord shiva, lord ganesha and many other gods and goddesses. Now the truth. 1)Mataji right from the 70's has been saying (this is documented) that 'I am the destination' 2)She has time and again said, 'You are like cells in my body....all of you'...Im sure you dont think it is the physical body she was reffering to. Then how is kash, seperate from her in the spiritual realm that Jagbir claims his kids visit. How are all the gods and goddesses outside her, even there? 3)Again, in her last speech in 2004 she clearly and emphatically said 'I do not see the difference between you and adishakti, they are the same' She further insisted that this speech be distributed immediately worldwide. 4)Mataji told Jagbir, by his own admission, to leave the work he had submitted to her. He pasted a note saying she had said 'TO LEAVE IT TO HER'. Jagbir has not left it to her. he continues to promote the site. Thereby diobeying the adishakti. 5) When we all know that the dieties exist inside us, and also inside the virat, then where are the seperate identities coming from. The are all created by the adishakti and exist inside her. 6)Again if someone is describing the insides of the sahasrar, why has shri mataji not explained this herself. Never has she mentioned that there is any such place. No sahaja yogi has ever come forward to descibe the experience either. I am sure you will agree there are many yogis who have gone past nirvikalpa also....and transcended the four chakras beyond the sahasrar. 7)Does it not seem ridiculous to you that all the divine beings are sitting around with human bodies even in Heaven (Er..thats heaven right where Kash and Arvinder go?) Ever wondered if that what Kash and Arvinder see are real then where do they get their clothes from, who stitches them? Do they have a tailor, a hairdresser? Shri Ram for sure has footwear, so is there an Adidas store in that realm? ok, he wears sandals, a poor joke on my part. But he's still need a cobbler. A forest to get wood from....what are heavenly forests like? Human bodies require food. Who cooks? 8)Why is it only Jagbirs kids get an audience in front of shri Mataji? Where are all the devis and devtas...35 crore of them. Where are the other advanced sahaja yogis, do they get a seperate audience in another realm of space? 9)As for why Shri MAtaji has not done anything about Jagbirs site....well....she told him to leave it. He did not listen. Now the SY sites dontlink to this fantasy land...what more do you want her to do?? She knows some seekers wil get misled. But thats the way it has to be. 10) Kash and Arinders visits are the basis of this entire website. To say it is the last judgement that is spoken of, is just a selling point. Sahaja Yoga does not hide the FACT of the last judgement. In fact as soon as you join SY, one of the first few tapes you will find speaks clearly of THE LAST JUDGEMENT. Where is the secret. 11)The techniques of spreading sahaja yoga have been laid down by mataji, all of us do just that. And it is effective. 12)If you think subtle system is not so important, then my dear brothers and sisters please meditate onthe fact that even during the last judgement, the ones who will not be saved are the ones who have not perfected their subtle system and thereby attained nirvikalpa. Warm regrads, Alex A --- semirafields <semirafields wrote: > > Hi, Alex, > Alex wrote;'Ive been around on this forum for a > while, and as much > as i would like to refrain from posting, considering > the futlity of the exercisie, sometimes i just feel > compelled to. > Jagbir has been going on and on and on about > criticising the present structure of shaja yoga. He > oftn mocks the leaders by calling them priests and > says that in effect they are carrying out their > personal whims and fancies under the banner of shaja > yoga. > REALIZE: The entire structure of sahaja yoga has > been > laid down by her holines shri mataji. She is FULLY > aware of what she is doing and the system she has > created. It amounts to blasphemy to criticise her > work. > SPOT THE LIE: There is nothing wrong with the > collective leaders! They are the most humble people > possible. I have seen enough of them now and they > are > doing their duties to the best of their abilities. > There is no reaon for any of us to hear > unsubstaintiated criticism about them! To read and > not > react to such a false claim, amounts to that!! > > Semira; Honesty about promoting SY has been a much > discussed point. > Are you saying, therefore, that SY should continue > to be promoted as > it is being promoted officially now; a relaxation > technique to feel > good? Do you mean that the Divine message must be > kept hidden, and > people cheated into joining SY? > As you say Shri Mataji is FULLY AWARE of what She is > doing; She is > therefore aware of the adishakti site and of this > forum. She is > surely also aware of the content of Her speeches, > upon which the > adishakti site is based. > I only managed to find out about the Divine message > from this forum > and the adishakti site. Strangely enough, the ex-SYs > do not mention > the Divine message either. People seem to focus on a > small aspect of > SY and concentrate on this aspect to prove a point, > and to > misrepresent the issue. I wonder why? Is HONESTY > such a difficult > thing for everybody? > > > > Alex wrote;THINK: Sahaja Yoga does not lay undue > importance to > the subtle system. If we perfect the subtle system > to > the level that shri mataji wants us to, then we > become > like hollow flutes. Instruments in the hands of the > divine, who do not decide their the course of action > based on individual ego's but on the guidance of > divine power! > CATCHES AND CURES: Is discussing catches and cures > wrong??? This is a very critical part of sahaja > yoga!!! Ask someone with a painful agnya catch to > just > chill and know it is the last judgement, he will > kick > you so hard in the backside! Only if we get to know > what we are doing wrong can we correct it. Mother > kundalini is all powerful agreed, but she cannot > help > us if we are doing wrong to ourselves!! > MY EXPERIENCE: When i came to this website/group > initially, i asked around if anyone knew why the > sides > of my head suddenly pain when i say or think of > certain things! Jagbir made fun of me and pulled > balwinder into the discussin and said it must be a > pimple in my brain!!! > Every newcomer goes through what i went through. It > is > simply that the ego and supergo baloons on either > side > of the brain that cause that pain. Once we let go of > both of these then the kundalini can pass through > easily and the pain subsides! I got this from the > collective. NOT FROM THIS FORUM!!! > > Semira; If you make fun of others, then you should > expect to be made > fun of yourself. I think you enjoy making fun of > others. > > > > > Alex wrote;THE LAST JUDGEMENT!!!!!!!!! > Jagbir goes on shifting the focus from keeping our > subtle bodies in a condition that they would be > useful > to the divine, to......THE LAST JUDGEMENT!! > > I think we have seen enough madmen around the world > walking around with banners saying that the world is > coming to an end!! I havent seen anyone become a wee > bit more moral, generous or loving after being told > about this!! > > Imagine a scenario, A SY walks into the corporate of > office of Intel and says ' Ladies and gentlemen, > this > photograph here is of shri mataji nirmala devi. For > the last 30 years she has been saying that this is > the > last judgement. So, please come to sahaja yoga' > > What reaction do you expect? That the security > guards > boot you out or that the whole accounts team stands > up > and says 'OH DAMN, how much time do we have!? chuck > this $4000 bribe i was getting for clearing payments > quickly and lets zoom to the nearest SY centre!!! > > The ways an means in which SY is being discussed and > spread is based on the research done by her holiness > shri matahi nirmala devi and i would very much > follow > what she says!! > > Semira; So you therefore think that the Divine > message is > unbelievable and that everyone who hears it will > make fun of it? > There are those who are ready to accept the Truth > and who will > understand it and not laugh. Is SY about the Divine > message, or > isn't it? > > Alex wrote;A FINAL WORD > > If www.adishakti.org is sanction by mataji, then > when > not scan and upload a little handwritten note from > her, approvong this site??? It might add credibility > to the stories of children flying around in outer > space! > > Semira; What you choose to believe is up to you, > Alex. What you find > unbelievable, others are able to accept. If telling > the Truth and > standing up for your beliefs means being laughed at > and ridiculed, > that is how it is. There are however also those who > want to hear and > understand the Truth. > > Regards, Semira > > > > > > > > > > Take Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile./maildemo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Alex, I didnt say you said that Sahaja Yogis are have nots. I said that you said people on this forum are kind of have-nots. I refer to message 2729 posted by you. Clearly whatever you said in that message was not positive about people on this forum. Anyway, I am not going to argue about this particular point anymore. But I do have to say this: Jagbir's children are not the only one in the world to have visited Shri Mataji in the sahasrar. There are two cousins of mine who briefly did SY when they were very young and they recounted seeing Shri Mataji in sahasrar. They also saw Shri Ganesha. This was all at a time when I didnt access internet so when I saw adishakti.org for the first time, I was not surprised because I had seen this happen before, although not in the same detail. Also, there is a very elderly Sahaja Yogi (I am not too sure about his name and his location but I can find out) who used to see Shri Mataji when he meditates. He has a whole book written about his experiences which unfortunately never got published. I think that now maybe is the time to bring that book to the fore and get it published. In that book he has some pretty startling revelations which even Shri Mataji never told sahajis. Alex, what do you believe what will happen when a sahaja yogi dies? Surely I am interested in that answer because I dont have the foggiest idea. Although one bhajan does state that after coming to Sahaja, a person gets out of the life-death cycle. Alex, if you remember when Shri Mataji started Sahaja in UK, she worked on a few hippies for a few years to get them established. If you have read " The Advent " you will recall that Shri Mataji had spent a lot of time on Mr. Gregoire. When Shri Mataji used to give realization herself, in the initial phases there used to be a camp kind of arrangement where people would stay for 2-3 days and get most out of the experience. What is happening today in the public programs that local collectives organize? Its usually over under 2 hours and then they ask people to come to the center for follow up. Most people who got the vibrations almost never come. So the point I am trying to make is, maybe just 2 hours of public program is insufficient. Maybe what we need is some 2-3 days of camp where people can learn more as there will be more personalized and intensive contact with the Sahajis. There is one camp like that which happens every year in Haridwar in India but clearly we need more of efforts like these. If the current method is fine, they why is the growth of Sahaja yoga so stagnant in the west and very slow in countries like India? Again, whatever Kash or Arwinder say they saw in the Sahasrar may appear to be preposterous/wierd or even beyond belief but let me ask everybody this- wasnt Sahaja Yoga beyond belief when we all first came in? Wasnt the whole premise of getting connected with Divine fantastic? How come we then started to believe in it? Because with Shri Mataji's grace we could indeed raise our state and expand our consciousness. Then why do we find it wierd to believe what Kash has to say. Maybe years down the line we will believe in that because our state will become elevated to that point. Nobody denies the importance of subtle system . Initially to get in balance, many people require it. but being obssessed with it is a problem. I have seen some sahajis who keep on doing shoe beating and foot soaking for their agya catch whence they should realize that problem is with their ego and/or inadequate surrender to Shri Mataji. Many people do catch treatment mechanically feeling they would be cured while the problem lies within the heart and surrender. I hope you understand the crux of what I am trying to say. cheers anuj shriadishakti , alex arthur <dude11976> wrote: > Dear Anuj and semira, > > > Before you read on, I'd just like to request my dear > brothers and sisters, that if you wish to carry this > debate further, then lets stay away from mud-slinging. > If you want to state something you firmly believe in > then please stick to to the numbered points at the end > of this mail. This does not apply to Jagbir, beause > he's going to get after me rather than what I said. > > Jai Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi, the sakshat Adishakti!! > > Anuj - I cannot recall saying sahaja yogis are have > nots. In your zest to support jagbir, please refrain > from giving false quotes. If at all there is anything > remotely close to that, then please take a direct > quote in full context, not jagbirs rebuttal as he has > a gift of playing with words and distorting the > message. > > The sahaja family is my own. I would not even go so > far as jagbir has gone to call them ugly ducklings > etc. I dont find anyone to be ugly or beautiful. We > are just children of the same mother. I have realised > the gravity of this statement to much greater extent > in the past months and growth in sahaja yoga. > > > Semira - Once you are realised and have realised you > are the spirit, then it becomes possible to believe in > the last judgement. Please try to tell a man lost in > worldly affairs about this and measure the credibility > he assigns you. > > Now, a normal sahaja yogi can bring in say at least 10 > people a year? yes, thats a fair number even for > someone who is not over zealous. Can you tell me if > adishakti.com, for the amount of web space it occupies > has gotten 10 people into sahaja yoga since the time > it came into existence? I really really doubt that. > > But, thats where it has has failed. It has seen > success too. Its made people like semira, anuj...and > many others believe that after they die, they will be > sitting in front of matajis throne in the afterlife > and meditating alongside Kash and Arvinder who will be > some 30 odd years old by then. Also in attendance will > be lord shiva, lord ganesha and many other gods and > goddesses. > > Now the truth. > > 1)Mataji right from the 70's has been saying (this is > documented) that 'I am the destination' > > 2)She has time and again said, 'You are like cells in > my body....all of you'...Im sure you dont think it is > the physical body she was reffering to. Then how is > kash, seperate from her in the spiritual realm that > Jagbir claims his kids visit. How are all the gods and > goddesses outside her, even there? > > 3)Again, in her last speech in 2004 she clearly and > emphatically said 'I do not see the difference between > you and adishakti, they are the same' She further > insisted that this speech be distributed immediately > worldwide. > > 4)Mataji told Jagbir, by his own admission, to leave > the work he had submitted to her. He pasted a note > saying she had said 'TO LEAVE IT TO HER'. Jagbir has > not left it to her. he continues to promote the site. > Thereby diobeying the adishakti. > > 5) When we all know that the dieties exist inside us, > and also inside the virat, then where are the seperate > identities coming from. The are all created by the > adishakti and exist inside her. > > 6)Again if someone is describing the insides of the > sahasrar, why has shri mataji not explained this > herself. Never has she mentioned that there is any > such place. No sahaja yogi has ever come forward to > descibe the experience either. I am sure you will > agree there are many yogis who have gone past > nirvikalpa also....and transcended the four chakras > beyond the sahasrar. > > 7)Does it not seem ridiculous to you that all the > divine beings are sitting around with human bodies > even in Heaven (Er..thats heaven right where Kash and > Arvinder go?) > Ever wondered if that what Kash and Arvinder see are > real then where do they get their clothes from, who > stitches them? Do they have a tailor, a hairdresser? > Shri Ram for sure has footwear, so is there an Adidas > store in that realm? ok, he wears sandals, a poor joke > on my part. But he's still need a cobbler. A forest to > get wood from....what are heavenly forests like? Human > bodies require food. Who cooks? > > 8)Why is it only Jagbirs kids get an audience in front > of shri Mataji? Where are all the devis and > devtas...35 crore of them. Where are the other > advanced sahaja yogis, do they get a seperate audience > in another realm of space? > > 9)As for why Shri MAtaji has not done anything about > Jagbirs site....well....she told him to leave it. He > did not listen. Now the SY sites dontlink to this > fantasy land...what more do you want her to do?? She > knows some seekers wil get misled. But thats the way > it has to be. > > > 10) Kash and Arinders visits are the basis of this > entire website. To say it is the last judgement that > is spoken of, is just a selling point. Sahaja Yoga > does not hide the FACT of the last judgement. In fact > as soon as you join SY, one of the first few tapes you > will find speaks clearly of THE LAST JUDGEMENT. Where > is the secret. > > 11)The techniques of spreading sahaja yoga have been > laid down by mataji, all of us do just that. And it is > effective. > > 12)If you think subtle system is not so important, > then my dear brothers and sisters please meditate > onthe fact that even during the last judgement, the > ones who will not be saved are the ones who have not > perfected their subtle system and thereby attained > nirvikalpa. > > > Warm regrads, > > Alex A > > > --- semirafields <semirafields> wrote: > > > > > Hi, Alex, > > Alex wrote;'Ive been around on this forum for a > > while, and as much > > as i would like to refrain from posting, considering > > the futlity of the exercisie, sometimes i just feel > > compelled to. > > Jagbir has been going on and on and on about > > criticising the present structure of shaja yoga. He > > oftn mocks the leaders by calling them priests and > > says that in effect they are carrying out their > > personal whims and fancies under the banner of shaja > > yoga. > > REALIZE: The entire structure of sahaja yoga has > > been > > laid down by her holines shri mataji. She is FULLY > > aware of what she is doing and the system she has > > created. It amounts to blasphemy to criticise her > > work. > > SPOT THE LIE: There is nothing wrong with the > > collective leaders! They are the most humble people > > possible. I have seen enough of them now and they > > are > > doing their duties to the best of their abilities. > > There is no reaon for any of us to hear > > unsubstaintiated criticism about them! To read and > > not > > react to such a false claim, amounts to that!! > > > > Semira; Honesty about promoting SY has been a much > > discussed point. > > Are you saying, therefore, that SY should continue > > to be promoted as > > it is being promoted officially now; a relaxation > > technique to feel > > good? Do you mean that the Divine message must be > > kept hidden, and > > people cheated into joining SY? > > As you say Shri Mataji is FULLY AWARE of what She is > > doing; She is > > therefore aware of the adishakti site and of this > > forum. She is > > surely also aware of the content of Her speeches, > > upon which the > > adishakti site is based. > > I only managed to find out about the Divine message > > from this forum > > and the adishakti site. Strangely enough, the ex-SYs > > do not mention > > the Divine message either. People seem to focus on a > > small aspect of > > SY and concentrate on this aspect to prove a point, > > and to > > misrepresent the issue. I wonder why? Is HONESTY > > such a difficult > > thing for everybody? > > > > > > > > Alex wrote;THINK: Sahaja Yoga does not lay undue > > importance to > > the subtle system. If we perfect the subtle system > > to > > the level that shri mataji wants us to, then we > > become > > like hollow flutes. Instruments in the hands of the > > divine, who do not decide their the course of action > > based on individual ego's but on the guidance of > > divine power! > > CATCHES AND CURES: Is discussing catches and cures > > wrong??? This is a very critical part of sahaja > > yoga!!! Ask someone with a painful agnya catch to > > just > > chill and know it is the last judgement, he will > > kick > > you so hard in the backside! Only if we get to know > > what we are doing wrong can we correct it. Mother > > kundalini is all powerful agreed, but she cannot > > help > > us if we are doing wrong to ourselves!! > > MY EXPERIENCE: When i came to this website/group > > initially, i asked around if anyone knew why the > > sides > > of my head suddenly pain when i say or think of > > certain things! Jagbir made fun of me and pulled > > balwinder into the discussin and said it must be a > > pimple in my brain!!! > > Every newcomer goes through what i went through. It > > is > > simply that the ego and supergo baloons on either > > side > > of the brain that cause that pain. Once we let go of > > both of these then the kundalini can pass through > > easily and the pain subsides! I got this from the > > collective. NOT FROM THIS FORUM!!! > > > > Semira; If you make fun of others, then you should > > expect to be made > > fun of yourself. I think you enjoy making fun of > > others. > > > > > > > > > > Alex wrote;THE LAST JUDGEMENT!!!!!!!!! > > Jagbir goes on shifting the focus from keeping our > > subtle bodies in a condition that they would be > > useful > > to the divine, to......THE LAST JUDGEMENT!! > > > > I think we have seen enough madmen around the world > > walking around with banners saying that the world is > > coming to an end!! I havent seen anyone become a wee > > bit more moral, generous or loving after being told > > about this!! > > > > Imagine a scenario, A SY walks into the corporate of > > office of Intel and says ' Ladies and gentlemen, > > this > > photograph here is of shri mataji nirmala devi. For > > the last 30 years she has been saying that this is > > the > > last judgement. So, please come to sahaja yoga' > > > > What reaction do you expect? That the security > > guards > > boot you out or that the whole accounts team stands > > up > > and says 'OH DAMN, how much time do we have!? chuck > > this $4000 bribe i was getting for clearing payments > > quickly and lets zoom to the nearest SY centre!!! > > > > The ways an means in which SY is being discussed and > > spread is based on the research done by her holiness > > shri matahi nirmala devi and i would very much > > follow > > what she says!! > > > > Semira; So you therefore think that the Divine > > message is > > unbelievable and that everyone who hears it will > > make fun of it? > > There are those who are ready to accept the Truth > > and who will > > understand it and not laugh. Is SY about the Divine > > message, or > > isn't it? > > > > Alex wrote;A FINAL WORD > > > > If www.adishakti.org is sanction by mataji, then > > when > > not scan and upload a little handwritten note from > > her, approvong this site??? It might add credibility > > to the stories of children flying around in outer > > space! > > > > Semira; What you choose to believe is up to you, > > Alex. What you find > > unbelievable, others are able to accept. If telling > > the Truth and > > standing up for your beliefs means being laughed at > > and ridiculed, > > that is how it is. There are however also those who > > want to hear and > > understand the Truth. > > > > Regards, Semira > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Take Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > http://mobile./maildemo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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