Personal journey and the dangers of joining the collective

[Guest guest]

, " semirafields "

<semirafields> wrote:

>

> Dear Danny,

> There are some things I'd like to say about your reply to Kyyan.

> You have mentioned that it is necessary to go to the collective

> regularly for progress.

> I am experiencing severe problems with this because I find the

> organisation to be involved in lies and coverups. Also, I'm tired

> of getting told about footsoaking, and hearing twisted versions of

> what I know to be otherwise.

> I cannot understand why realised people are knowingly practising

> deception, whereas even unrealised people can discern the

> difference between truth and lies. The layers of pretence and di

> dishonesty are repelling.

> It is true that meditating in the collective is a very powerful

> experience. However, this cannot be a reason to ignore the wrong

> things that have been happening in the organisation.

> If people in the SY organisation had any integrity at all, and

> were sincere, all these troubling issues would be brought out into

> the open and faced up to. The fact that this has not been done,

> and that there is resistance to people voicing honest and sincere

> opinions, is a mockery to the pursuit of Truth.

>

> Warmest regards, Semira

>

>

 

Dear Semira and Kyyan and Violet,

 

Since the 1987 speech those who have managed the organization have

succeeded beyond all expectations in driving away seekers in every

way possible. i never knew Shri Mataji did say all that i believed

so strongly all these years. How then did management SYs hide this

masterpiece for so long from so many?

 

i totally agree with you that Kyyan should stay away from the

collective. This is because nothing much has changed since 1987 when

Shri Mataji was shocked:

 

" I get reports from others, who say: " Your Sahaja Yogis are wicked

people, because they say to people: `You are evil.' `You are

possessed.' `You are this, you are that.' – They are very wicked

people. "

 

The rest of the speech is also true Kyyan. Nothing has changed over

the years. All i am sure is that things have gotten worse, provided

you understand what Semira is talking about. BTW, we are a

collective here too and can provide you with the spiritual

nourishment. Above all the benefits available here is that you will

at all times be reminded of the Truth, something that most

management-controlled collectives have no conscience of upholding.

 

And Violet, my pranaam for this fantastic puja speech. You have no

idea how much i appreciate your work and dedication in bringing

forth such gems that help all of us separate the wheat from the

chaff. i definitely cannot do Her Work alone. We need more

instruments like you and others to reach the critical mass sooner.

 

Jai Shri Mataji,

 

 

jagbir

 

 

-------------------------------

 

" On this point I have to say a few words. It's important. I have to

make a few points about the spontaneity aspect, which is quite

interesting – the way people think spontaneity works.

 

For example, with so many people, it's mostly the ego part, which

says: " this is spontaneous " . Especially the very old Sahaja Yogis

think they are authorities on spontaneity. Like we had some land in

Vaitharna. So one of the older ones went there and he said, " This

land is vibrating, and this land is not vibrating. " So everybody

accepted that: " Alright, alright, alright. " Then he said: " In this

part of the land nobody should eat their food. " From where does this

knowledge come? I mean, eating food is not a sin, is it? As if it

would be a sin, if you were eating food there!

 

But religiously they'll follow: " A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H .... down

to ....Z. " Then, again: " A, B, C.... " `Sahaja' Yoga has gone to

such an extent, that I start thinking: " Now they have become another

group of fanatic Sahaja Yogis.... " But fanaticism is against Sahaja

Yoga. Absolutely.

 

Now they'll ask, " How many times should we say this mantra? " Then I

say, " Zero times. " .... (Laughter) " How many drops of `ghee' should

we put in our noses? Then I say, " A full jug. " .... (Laughter) " Oh, I

should not have gone from the left side, I should have gone from the

right side. " Then I would say, " just jump up, where you are. " ....

(Laughter) You have to be like children. But people's ideas are so

settled down in Sahaja Yoga, (even) now – in so few years. But your

ideas should not settle down. It's not 'sahaj'.... it's not

spontaneous. " If you do it this way, then it is wrong. That way,

then it's wrong " . Nothing of the kind. Nothing should be

(theoretically) " wrong " for you people. If you do anything really

wrong, your vibrations will be lost, finished. So, what is there to

be so cautious about?

 

Like somebody said: " I don't want to look at this cigarette. " I

said: " Why? " " Even looking at it is sinful! " he said. I said: " When

you look at it, what happens? " " Then I feel like smoking. " So I

said: " Then you'd better smoke once and for all! " (Laughter)....

Or they'll say: " I cannot hold a wine bottle in my

hand. " " Why? " " No, holding the wine bottle is sinful. " I mean, you

can swim in wine, (if you really want to)! (Laughter)

 

So, this kind of understanding (and discrimination) should be there.

Though I have always said: " If I say one thing, you tend to cling on

to it (exclusively), so I always say the other side of it too. " So

don't " stick on " to anything. Sahaja Yoga is not for " sticking on "

to something. For example, somebody who had learnt certain lessons

about Sahaja Yoga at the beginning, say certain mantras that they

had learnt, and still today they are sticking on to the same stage.

No, no, no, no! You have to go ahead. (Sahaja Yoga is a process of

growth), just a staircase (a series of steps for going up ever

higher). So, don't get stuck at a particular point. We have had so

many such cases here. People get really `out-worn', as they say,

(like a coat you should have discarded ages ago). They'll go on

telling you so many nonsensical ideas that they learnt at the

beginning: " You see, you do like this, then this happens, etc. "

 

First of all: Don't give ideas to others. That's the thing. If you

decide: " We won't give ideas about what is wrong with the other

person, " half of your job is done. Because in reality you don't have

to do any job – just as I don't.

 

People have become so fanatical in their `knowledge' that even to

new people they'll say: " You are a bhoot! " And, instead of trying to

help them, they'll say: " let them get on with it. " I get reports

from others, who say: " Your Sahaja Yogis are wicked people, because

they say to people: `You are evil.' `You are possessed.' `You are

this, you are that.' – They are very wicked people. " .... I'm really

shocked to hear that about Sahaja Yogis. How can they be wicked and,

for example, if somebody is suffering from something and they `phone

and tell them: " Oh, you'd better get on with it, it is good for

you. " That's not the way.

 

We have to be not only humble, but very tactful and sweet to new

people, if you want more people to come in. But, if you have decided

not to have any more – because then we'd have to put up another

marquee – then I have nothing more to say. But, if you want others

to come in, then it's important that you talk to them in a very

sweet and beautiful language, in a way they'll understand. Rudeness,

arrogance and showing off are of no use.

 

One should understand: `Sahaja Yoga' is when you are in complete

enjoyment about it, when you are totally immersed in that

temperament.

 

Where is the time to remember how many times you ought to give

a 'bandhan' to yourself? What is the need to give a `bandhan' to

yourself? Now, it's all a joke for you. Or it should be. A little

child has to suck the milk from the bottle all right, because it has

no teeth. But what about you people having that kind of a baby

thing? This is very childish and shows no growth at all.

 

Sahaja Yogis must grow within. There should no longer be anyone

regarded as `immature' Sahaja Yogis. I would say a `mature Sahaja

Yogi' is one who can combine many, many different things together,

(who is flexible and discriminating), but with all the beautiful,

fine dividing lines, (the `maryadas',) maintained. (You must

be 'diplomatic, with an adaptable and varied response according to

the situation).

 

But you cannot do it the other way round. For example, if you say,

(regardless of the situation): " Now I'll be sweet and then I'll be

angry, now I'll be like this, then I'll be like that. " It will be a

hotch-potch. It's a funny personality you will be. Suddenly you get

angry, like this and then like that. People will think you are

doing " Bharata Natyam " (classical dance) or something, like that –

showing all your moods! In five minutes you are showing ten

different moods (regardless of the needs of the moment).

 

This flexible response comes from growth within you. So we'll have

to have our growth. And for our growth, let us be silent within. Let

us not react to others: " This person is this, that person is that. "

What about yourself? "

 

And then there are other things you do. For example, I tell somebody

that he has a certain problem. So, that person immediately goes to a

second person: " You see, Mother told me that you too have this

problem, you'd better look after it. " I didn't tell that person. I

told you. Keep it to yourself.

 

So.... " Mother Says " is to be given up. Absolutely. If Mother has

to " say " , She'll say it. Why should you communicate, why should you

say? I never asked you to say that to others!

 

Understanding Sahaja Yoga is very simple, extremely simple, when you

understand one thing: You have to have your Innocence intact. " Now,

how can we get to Innocence? " people will say. How to get to

Innocence is a vicious circle. How to get to Innocence? We have to

get to Innocence: through what? Your ego or superego? How will you

get to Innocence?….

 

(Shri Mataji interrupts Her talk and addresses some Sahaja Yogis who

are mechanically raising their Kundalinis, just as they've

been 'told' to do. " Mother says…. " Don't raise your Kundalinis! I

mean, I'm sitting just here before you, and yet people are doing

that. What's this? I'm sitting here and so your Kundalinis are

(spontaneously) up there, at the top of your head. What are you

raising?)

 

Now, `how to manage to get to your Innocence?' is the problem. Very

simple it is. In the beginning I said: " Let your Guru reside in your

heart. " And yet, people ask: " How can we manage? " Why are they

asking such a simple question? Let MOTHER manage. " Mother is

managing me. " Keep it at that, and your right side will clear. Your

left side will clear when you say, " Nobody can manage me, but Mother

can manage me! " The two things together. Then things will work out.

Thank God you have somebody like Me sitting here so that you can say

that (with such confidence). Think of those who never had anyone to

tell them or to be in the presence of one who could say, " I can

manage this " , or " You can manage that. " That's how you can balance

yourself. (i.e. By saying both: " Nobody can manage me, " for the left

side and: " Mother can manage me, " for the right side).

 

Allow your Kundalini to grow. Everything works out.

 

 

Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi

Guru Puja, Shudy Camps Park House

12 July, 1987

[Guest guest]

Dear all, Including danny,

 

First i would like to say thanks for replying to my email, as i

always am excited to see what people have to sa in response.

 

I want to say however, that i am fully aware that I need the support

of the other yogis, both in a collective atmosphere(be it puja or

otherwise) and however else. Yes my chakras are far far far frm

fully functional and as danny put it : messed up " ; that i am fully

aware of. I also am fully aware that being in a collective

atmosphere will help me to heal inside and out, become stronger and

eventually be able to stand on my own. At no time did i mean that i

don't need any collective support and can go it alone like Jagbir or

Violet or whomever,especially at my very early( still half asleep

but begining to wake up)stage, if you can even call it at stage at

this point. Not only that, but i enjoy the help i Gt, the collective

help directly and indirectly via vibraions, and i plan to stay with

the collective and take part in pujas etc until such time as my

living situation( ie moving out of the country or whatever else may

or may not take place) prevent me from doing so. Not only that but i

will stay of course until i can participate in puja and do it in a

completely sincere, mindful and connected way, maybe even in spirts

of long periods of thoughtlessness. Basically until i am able to

really feel what it is all about in stead of speculate based on what

i have read. Of course the whole time not being influenced or what

have you by the people (collective and otherwise) in my

surroundings.

 

I didn't need to explain myself but i thought i may be best if i did

in this way. Until i am strong enough and can say without a doubt

that i feel this on my hands, feel the cool breee etc, i plan to get

all the help i can until suchtime as inside i know that is is time

to go it alone. I was simply saying that despite all that stuff,

pujas, things that help us(especially me, as i need that external

stuff)exernally focus internally, i still feel short bursts of peace

and love( really short) when i reflect on the fact that iregardless

of the lack of family i had while growing up, that my kundalini was

there loving me and waiting for me all along, and that it is my

connection and relationship built with here, either by myself or

otherwise, that is the most important. Also that i feel alot my

relaxed and focused on that point when i am alone without

distractions or my worries creeping up in group setting; that is all.

 

I hope that clears things up.

 

Thanks guys

 

Kyyan

, " jagbir singh "

<adishakti_org> wrote:

>

> , " semirafields "

> <semirafields> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Danny,

> > There are some things I'd like to say about your reply to Kyyan.

> > You have mentioned that it is necessary to go to the collective

> > regularly for progress.

> > I am experiencing severe problems with this because I find the

> > organisation to be involved in lies and coverups. Also, I'm

tired

> > of getting told about footsoaking, and hearing twisted versions

of

> > what I know to be otherwise.

> > I cannot understand why realised people are knowingly practising

> > deception, whereas even unrealised people can discern the

> > difference between truth and lies. The layers of pretence and di

> > dishonesty are repelling.

> > It is true that meditating in the collective is a very powerful

> > experience. However, this cannot be a reason to ignore the wrong

> > things that have been happening in the organisation.

> > If people in the SY organisation had any integrity at all, and

> > were sincere, all these troubling issues would be brought out

into

> > the open and faced up to. The fact that this has not been done,

> > and that there is resistance to people voicing honest and

sincere

> > opinions, is a mockery to the pursuit of Truth.

> >

> > Warmest regards, Semira

> >

> >

>

> Dear Semira and Kyyan and Violet,

>

> Since the 1987 speech those who have managed the organization have

> succeeded beyond all expectations in driving away seekers in every

> way possible. i never knew Shri Mataji did say all that i believed

> so strongly all these years. How then did management SYs hide this

> masterpiece for so long from so many?

>

> i totally agree with you that Kyyan should stay away from the

> collective. This is because nothing much has changed since 1987

when

> Shri Mataji was shocked:

>

> " I get reports from others, who say: " Your Sahaja Yogis are wicked

> people, because they say to people: `You are evil.' `You are

> possessed.' `You are this, you are that.' – They are very wicked

> people. "

>

> The rest of the speech is also true Kyyan. Nothing has changed

over

> the years. All i am sure is that things have gotten worse,

provided

> you understand what Semira is talking about. BTW, we are a

> collective here too and can provide you with the spiritual

> nourishment. Above all the benefits available here is that you

will

> at all times be reminded of the Truth, something that most

> management-controlled collectives have no conscience of upholding.

>

> And Violet, my pranaam for this fantastic puja speech. You have no

> idea how much i appreciate your work and dedication in bringing

> forth such gems that help all of us separate the wheat from the

> chaff. i definitely cannot do Her Work alone. We need more

> instruments like you and others to reach the critical mass sooner.

>

> Jai Shri Mataji,

>

>

> jagbir

>

>

> -------------------------------

>

> " On this point I have to say a few words. It's important. I have

to

> make a few points about the spontaneity aspect, which is quite

> interesting – the way people think spontaneity works.

>

> For example, with so many people, it's mostly the ego part, which

> says: " this is spontaneous " . Especially the very old Sahaja Yogis

> think they are authorities on spontaneity. Like we had some land

in

> Vaitharna. So one of the older ones went there and he said, " This

> land is vibrating, and this land is not vibrating. " So everybody

> accepted that: " Alright, alright, alright. " Then he said: " In this

> part of the land nobody should eat their food. " From where does

this

> knowledge come? I mean, eating food is not a sin, is it? As if it

> would be a sin, if you were eating food there!

>

> But religiously they'll follow: " A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H .... down

> to ....Z. " Then, again: " A, B, C.... " `Sahaja' Yoga has gone to

> such an extent, that I start thinking: " Now they have become

another

> group of fanatic Sahaja Yogis.... " But fanaticism is against

Sahaja

> Yoga. Absolutely.

>

> Now they'll ask, " How many times should we say this mantra? " Then

I

> say, " Zero times. " .... (Laughter) " How many drops of `ghee' should

> we put in our noses? Then I say, " A full jug. " .... (Laughter) " Oh,

I

> should not have gone from the left side, I should have gone from

the

> right side. " Then I would say, " just jump up, where you are. " ....

> (Laughter) You have to be like children. But people's ideas are so

> settled down in Sahaja Yoga, (even) now – in so few years. But

your

> ideas should not settle down. It's not 'sahaj'.... it's not

> spontaneous. " If you do it this way, then it is wrong. That way,

> then it's wrong " . Nothing of the kind. Nothing should be

> (theoretically) " wrong " for you people. If you do anything really

> wrong, your vibrations will be lost, finished. So, what is there

to

> be so cautious about?

>

> Like somebody said: " I don't want to look at this cigarette. " I

> said: " Why? " " Even looking at it is sinful! " he said. I

said: " When

> you look at it, what happens? " " Then I feel like smoking. " So I

> said: " Then you'd better smoke once and for all! "

(Laughter)....

> Or they'll say: " I cannot hold a wine bottle in my

> hand. " " Why? " " No, holding the wine bottle is sinful. " I mean,

you

> can swim in wine, (if you really want to)! (Laughter)

>

> So, this kind of understanding (and discrimination) should be

there.

> Though I have always said: " If I say one thing, you tend to cling

on

> to it (exclusively), so I always say the other side of it too. " So

> don't " stick on " to anything. Sahaja Yoga is not for " sticking on "

> to something. For example, somebody who had learnt certain lessons

> about Sahaja Yoga at the beginning, say certain mantras that they

> had learnt, and still today they are sticking on to the same

stage.

> No, no, no, no! You have to go ahead. (Sahaja Yoga is a process of

> growth), just a staircase (a series of steps for going up ever

> higher). So, don't get stuck at a particular point. We have had so

> many such cases here. People get really `out-worn', as they say,

> (like a coat you should have discarded ages ago). They'll go on

> telling you so many nonsensical ideas that they learnt at the

> beginning: " You see, you do like this, then this happens, etc. "

>

> First of all: Don't give ideas to others. That's the thing. If you

> decide: " We won't give ideas about what is wrong with the other

> person, " half of your job is done. Because in reality you don't

have

> to do any job – just as I don't.

>

> People have become so fanatical in their `knowledge' that even to

> new people they'll say: " You are a bhoot! " And, instead of trying

to

> help them, they'll say: " let them get on with it. " I get reports

> from others, who say: " Your Sahaja Yogis are wicked people,

because

> they say to people: `You are evil.' `You are possessed.' `You are

> this, you are that.' – They are very wicked people. " .... I'm

really

> shocked to hear that about Sahaja Yogis. How can they be wicked

and,

> for example, if somebody is suffering from something and they

`phone

> and tell them: " Oh, you'd better get on with it, it is good for

> you. " That's not the way.

>

> We have to be not only humble, but very tactful and sweet to new

> people, if you want more people to come in. But, if you have

decided

> not to have any more – because then we'd have to put up another

> marquee – then I have nothing more to say. But, if you want others

> to come in, then it's important that you talk to them in a very

> sweet and beautiful language, in a way they'll understand.

Rudeness,

> arrogance and showing off are of no use.

>

> One should understand: `Sahaja Yoga' is when you are in complete

> enjoyment about it, when you are totally immersed in that

> temperament.

>

> Where is the time to remember how many times you ought to give

> a 'bandhan' to yourself? What is the need to give a `bandhan' to

> yourself? Now, it's all a joke for you. Or it should be. A little

> child has to suck the milk from the bottle all right, because it

has

> no teeth. But what about you people having that kind of a baby

> thing? This is very childish and shows no growth at all.

>

> Sahaja Yogis must grow within. There should no longer be anyone

> regarded as `immature' Sahaja Yogis. I would say a `mature Sahaja

> Yogi' is one who can combine many, many different things together,

> (who is flexible and discriminating), but with all the beautiful,

> fine dividing lines, (the `maryadas',) maintained. (You must

> be 'diplomatic, with an adaptable and varied response according to

> the situation).

>

> But you cannot do it the other way round. For example, if you say,

> (regardless of the situation): " Now I'll be sweet and then I'll be

> angry, now I'll be like this, then I'll be like that. " It will be

a

> hotch-potch. It's a funny personality you will be. Suddenly you

get

> angry, like this and then like that. People will think you are

> doing " Bharata Natyam " (classical dance) or something, like that –

> showing all your moods! In five minutes you are showing ten

> different moods (regardless of the needs of the moment).

>

> This flexible response comes from growth within you. So we'll have

> to have our growth. And for our growth, let us be silent within.

Let

> us not react to others: " This person is this, that person is

that. "

> What about yourself? "

>

> And then there are other things you do. For example, I tell

somebody

> that he has a certain problem. So, that person immediately goes to

a

> second person: " You see, Mother told me that you too have this

> problem, you'd better look after it. " I didn't tell that person. I

> told you. Keep it to yourself.

>

> So.... " Mother Says " is to be given up. Absolutely. If Mother has

> to " say " , She'll say it. Why should you communicate, why should

you

> say? I never asked you to say that to others!

>

> Understanding Sahaja Yoga is very simple, extremely simple, when

you

> understand one thing: You have to have your Innocence

intact. " Now,

> how can we get to Innocence? " people will say. How to get to

> Innocence is a vicious circle. How to get to Innocence? We have to

> get to Innocence: through what? Your ego or superego? How will you

> get to Innocence?….

>

> (Shri Mataji interrupts Her talk and addresses some Sahaja Yogis

who

> are mechanically raising their Kundalinis, just as they've

> been 'told' to do. " Mother says…. " Don't raise your Kundalinis!

I

> mean, I'm sitting just here before you, and yet people are doing

> that. What's this? I'm sitting here and so your Kundalinis are

> (spontaneously) up there, at the top of your head. What are you

> raising?)

>

> Now, `how to manage to get to your Innocence?' is the problem.

Very

> simple it is. In the beginning I said: " Let your Guru reside in

your

> heart. " And yet, people ask: " How can we manage? " Why are they

> asking such a simple question? Let MOTHER manage. " Mother is

> managing me. " Keep it at that, and your right side will clear.

Your

> left side will clear when you say, " Nobody can manage me, but

Mother

> can manage me! " The two things together. Then things will work

out.

> Thank God you have somebody like Me sitting here so that you can

say

> that (with such confidence). Think of those who never had anyone

to

> tell them or to be in the presence of one who could say, " I can

> manage this " , or " You can manage that. " That's how you can balance

> yourself. (i.e. By saying both: " Nobody can manage me, " for the

left

> side and: " Mother can manage me, " for the right side).

>

> Allow your Kundalini to grow. Everything works out.

>

>

> Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi

> Guru Puja, Shudy Camps Park House

> 12 July, 1987

>

[Guest guest]

Spelling corrected....

 

Dear all, Including danny,

 

First i would like to say thanks for replying to my email, as i

always am excited to see what people have to say in response.

 

I want to say however, that i am fully aware that I need the support

of the other yogis, both in a collective atmosphere(be it puja or

otherwise) and however else. Yes my chakras are far far far from

fully functional and as danny put it : " messed up " ; that i am fully

aware of. I also am fully aware that being in a collective

atmosphere will help me to heal inside and out, become stronger and

eventually be able to stand on my own. At no time did i mean that i

don't need any collective support and can go it alone like Jagbir or

Violet or whomever(yet) ,especially at my very early( still half

asleep

but begining to wake up)stage, if you can even call it at stage at

this point. Not only that, but i enjoy the help i Get, the collective

help directly and indirectly via vibrations, and i plan to stay with

the collective and take part in pujas etc until such time as my

living situation( ie moving out of the country or whatever else may

or may not take place) prevent me from doing so. Not only that but i

will stay of course until i can participate in puja(etc) and do it

in a

completely sincere, mindful and connected way, maybe even in spirts

or long periods of thoughtlessness. Basically until i am able to

really feel what it is all about in stead of speculate based on what

i have read. Of course the whole time not being influenced or what

have you by the people (collective and otherwise) in my

surroundings.

 

I didn't need to explain myself but i thought it may be best if i did

in this way. Until i am strong enough and can say without a doubt

that i feel this on my hands, feel the cool breee etc, i plan to get

all the help i can until such time as inside i know that is is time

to go it alone. I was simply saying that despite all that stuff,

pujas, things that help us(especially me, as i need that external

stuff)exernally focus internally, i still feel short bursts of peace

and love( really short) when i reflect on the fact that regardless

of the lack of family i had while growing up, that my kundalini was

there loving me and waiting for me all along, and that it is my

connection and relationship built with her, either by myself or

otherwise, that is the most important. Also that i feel alot more

relaxed and focused on that point when i am alone without

distractions or my worries creeping up in group setting; that is all.

 

I hope that clears things up.

 

Thanks guys

 

Kyyan