Are the Pentecostals and false gurus using the same methods 'to slay in spirit'?

[Guest guest]

Dear Violet,

 

i could not really grasp the perculiar unlike-Jesus meanings of 1

Corinthians till you metioned:

 

" Jagbir, you can see from Verse 18, that the (Apostle) Paul must

have been a `Pentecostal', because he says that he " speaks in

tongues " . Perhaps (Apostle) Paul was over-the-top, encouraging

Christians to 'try to prophecy', 'try to heal', all these things. i

mean, i think a lot of this must have been in the form of left/righ

channel 'siddhis'. i am beginning to think (Apostle) Paul was

maybe a bit 'unbalanced' and 'fanatical', because you don't go

around saying to people " Try to heal " , " Try to prophesy " , do you?!

However, my theory is, that because it was Peter and Paul who were

the basis of the continuing Official Church, that they included all

of Paul's idiosyncracies in the Bible, which today are embraced and

perpetuated by the so-called 'Pentecostals'. "

 

You see Violet i have always persisted in the " What did Jesus Say? "

approach to the Bible. There are just too many authors in a book

that was compiled 400 years later. FOUR HUNDRED YEARS! With that in

mind, and with the Church editing it prior to final compilation, you

just do not know if what you are reading is in accordance to Jesus'

teachings. i have never been comfortable with the Bible and always

seek the words spoken by Jesus. Shri Mataji's warning only

reinforced that:

 

" After Lord Jesus Christ the ordinary people started following the

religion started by Paul, and then everything started going wrong.

In this way, in every religion things went wrong because religion

became difficult and inaccessible. " (Shri Mataji)

 

" Also, Christianity spread under the wrong banner of Paul and

Augustine. And that's how we see the Christianity, so much so that

we are shocked how can Christianity of Christ be like this. And this

Christianity that has come has nothing to do with Christ. And He has

said that, " You'll be calling Me `Christ, Christ' and I won't

recognise you. " " (Shri Mataji)

 

 

Corinthians fits that warning perfectly. And we have more about Paul

who profoundly influenced Christianity.

 

" The term original sin is not found in the Bible. Theologians who

advocate the doctrine of original sin argue, however, that it is

strongly implied by Paul (see Romans 7), by John (see 1 John 5:19),

and even by Jesus himself (see Luke 11:13.) Behind this New

Testament teaching lies the world view of late Jewish apocalyptic

writings. Some of these writings attribute the corrupt state of the

world to a prehistoric fall of Satan, the subsequent temptation of

Adam and Eve, and the immersion of human history thereafter in

disorder, disobedience, and pain. "

 

Microsoft Encarta 96 Encyclopedia

 

 

" At Romans 5:12-18 Paul himself tells his Roman Christians how

through one man, Adam, sin 'entered into the world' and by the sin

of one man death reigned too. These famous verses have inspired

whole theories of sin and original sin which have changed many

Christians' perspective on human nature. It seems clear that the

Fall of Adam and Eve was just not the moral tale of a single

couple's after: the story was meant to be the origin of a change for

all subsequent humans. It is not, however, stated that what

originated was sin or sinfulness, words which occur nowhere in the

Hebrew text. It was St. Augustine who ended by arguing that original

sin had been transmitted to each of us through Adam, a view which he

backed up by Paul's language in Romans 5. However, he followed a

mistranslation of it, based only on a Latin version of the text.

Paul's Greek had merely said that 'death passed upon all men,

because [in that] all sinned'; Augustine followed an author who

mistook it to say 'death passed upon all men because of Adam, [in

whom] all sinned . . .' Original sin was read unnecessarily into

Genesis and was then forced on to Paul by a wrong translation of his

writings. In Genesis, nothing prevents us from thinking that Adam

and Eve from the start of their lives had been expected to make

love, reproduce and eventually die.

 

The message of the New Testament Christians, 'We preach Christ

crucified,' is only rendered slightly more complicated by today's

Evangelicals: 'You are a sinner bound for hell. . . . why are we

sinners? Is it actually possible for a human being not to be a

sinner? No, because 'All have sinned, and come short of the glory of

God' (Romans 3:23.) So is this our fault, because of free will, or

God's, for creating us that way? "

 

Robin Lane Fox, The Unauthorized Version: Truth and fiction in the

Bible, Penguin Books Ltd, 1991, p. 24.

 

(Robin Lane Fox, a fellow of New College, Oxford and a University

Reader in Ancient History, has written The Unauthorized Version:

Truth and fiction in the Bible which is a " tour de force in a vast

landscape; it leaves us with a clearer view of many of the high

points, from the Creation to the Nativity and the narratives of

Jesus' trial. Vigorously written, it is a challenge to anyone whose

memories of the Bible are haphazard or who takes a simple view

of 'what the Bible says. " )

 

 

" If God knows everything, he already knows (in fact, he knew before

he created Adam) who will be saved and who will be damned. But is

this foreknowledge or predestination? Are we condemned because of

Adam's sin or our own? Does 'original sin' mean that because birth

results from sexual intercourse, the parents' sinfulness passes into

the baby, and does that mean sex is sinful?

 

Similar questions can be asked — and discussed endlessly — about

every single term in Christian theology.

 

Jesus' teachings is in complete contrast to this. He never spoke of

original sin; everything he said ran counter to the notion of a

collective guilt that would fall on generation after generation. He

never talked of the expiation of sins beings the condition of entry

into the new society, into the Kingdom. On the contrary, one's very

entry into the Kingdom means that one's sins have been washed away —

which does not mean that this Kingdom is one where anything goes,

for as we have seen the rules of the new society are truly

demanding . . . Jesus never claimed that he had to die to 'atone

for' humanity's sins. This would mean that a God who demanded,

through His son, that one should forgive 'seventy-seven times

seven' — that is, always — would Himself be unable to do as

much . . .

 

In fact, Jesus called people to joy and a renewal of the Covenant

between God and men. There are many calls to joy in the

gospels: 'The Kingdom of Heaven may be compared to a king who gave a

feast for his son's wedding;' You will eat and drink at my table in

my kingdom;' 'Rejoice with me . . . I have found my sheep that was

lost;' 'The Kingdom of Heaven is like treasure in a field which

someone has found; he hides it again, goes off happy, sells

everything he owns and buys the field' — and so on. "

 

Jacques Duquesne, Jesus: An Unconventional Biography,

Triump Books, 1997 p. 155-56.

 

 

But what truly stumps me is the way the church ministers infuse the

believers with the 'holy spirit' which is similar to what Osho,

Muktananda and other false gurus administer their devotees by

shaktipat (touch):

 

" A bolt of electricity passing through his body. Passing from one

person to the next, moving around the circle, coming back to him.

The group began shaking violently. It was as if they were all

possessed, taken over by a powerful impersonal energy. "

 

Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, " Dance Your Way To God " pg. 148

 

 

" Suddenly her body was shaking, she was screaming. Somendra was

moving around her - touching her on the back of her neck, on the

chest, on the belly. As he'd touch her, his hands vibrating with

energy, the part of her body where he touched her would begin

shaking more violently. Shaking, screaming, crying - she became a

dynamo of energy...she was on fire, from the opposite corner they

could feel her energy. "

 

Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, " Dance Your Way To God " pg. 149

 

 

Violet, i remember you writing something about left and right

sympathetic channels that cause such a phenomena. Are the

Pentecostals and false gurus using the same methods 'to slay in

spirit'? i will wait for the answers before proceeding further. And

please do not think i want cut and paste answers. You should always

answer collectively, not individually.

 

love and season's greetings,

 

 

jagbir

 

 

 

, " Violet " <vtubb@b...>

wrote:

>

> Dear Jagbir,

>

> The so-called Baptism of the Holy Spirit in Pentecostalism is done

through what is called as the `laying on of hands'. It is done as

part of the Church Service when the Minister uses his right hand and

places it on the head of the recipient, and declares/prays over the

recipient by saying something like: `In the name of the Father, the

Son, and the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost be now received!'

>

> Then the Holy Ghost `transmission' is passed on from the Minister

to the recipient in what is felt like a hot radiating heat that

leaves the right hand of the Minister's hand and it goes into the

Sahasrara (head) of the recipient. People like the experience. It

gives them a real `high' (siddhi).

>

> I once asked a Pentecostal `Church of God' Minister where he got

this power to give the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. He told me he was

initiated into it from another Minister who already had it.

>

> The teaching in the Pentecostal Church is that once a person

receives this Baptism of the Holy Spirit, they can then expect to

see the Gifts of the Holy Spirit operative in their lives, as

described in the 12th Chapter of I Corinthians, where these Gifts of

the Spirit are described. This Chapter is the MAIN TENET of all

Christian 'Pentecostal' Style Religions.

>

> Here it is:

>

> " The Use of Spiritual Gifts " (New American Standard Bible)

> Author: (Apostle) Paul....

>

> 1. " Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to

be unaware.

>

> 2. You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the

dumb idols, however you were led.

>

> 3. Therefore I make known to you, that no one speaking by the

Spirit of God says, " Jesus is accursed " ; and no one can say " Jesus

is Lord, " except by the Holy Spirit.

>

> 4. Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.

>

> 5. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.

>

> 6. And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works

all things in all persons.

>

> 7. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for

the common good.

>

> 8. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and

to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit.

>

> 9. To another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of

healing by the one Spirit.

>

> 10. And to another the effecting of miracles, and to another

prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another

various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of

tongues.

>

> 11. But one and the same Spirit works all these things,

distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

>

> 12. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all

the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also

is Christ.

>

> 13. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether

Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to

drink of one Spirit.

>

> 14. For the body is not one member, but many.

>

> 15. If the foot should say, " Because I am not the hand, I am not a

part of the body, " it is not for this reason any the less a part of

the body.

>

> 16. And if the ear should say, " Because I am not an eye, I am not

a part of the body, " it is not for this reason any the less a part

of the body.

>

> 17. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If

the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?

>

> 18. But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the

body, just as He desired.

>

> 19. And if they were all one member, where would the body be?

>

> 20. But now there are many members, but one body.

>

> 21. And the eye cannot say to the hand, " I have no need of you " ,

or again the head to the feet, " I have no need of you. "

>

> 22. On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the

body, which seem to be weaker, are necessary;

>

> 23. And those members of the body, which we deem less honorable,

on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our unseemly members

come to have more abundant seemliness,

>

> 24. Whereas our seemly members have no need of it. But God has so

composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which

lacked,

>

> 25. That there should be no division in the body, but that the

members should have the same care for one another.

>

> 26. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if

one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

>

> 27. Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it,

>

> 28. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second

(ly) prophets, third(ly) teachers, then miracles, then gifts of

healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

>

> 29. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are

they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of

miracles, are they?

>

> 30. All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak

with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

>

> 31. But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still

more excellent way. " (1 Corinthians 12:1-31)

>

> Jagbir, Verse 31 leads you to where the non-Pentecostal Mainstream

Traditional Christian Churches base their views. They generally

disregard the 12th Chapter with the Gifts of the Spirit, and opt to

go with the 13th Chapter, which stresses the more excellent way of

love.

>

> Here it is:

>

> " The Excellence of Love " (New American Standard Bible)

>

> 1. " If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not

have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

>

> 2. And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and

all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains,

but do not have love, I am nothing.

>

> 3. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I

deliver my body to be burned (suicide bombers?!), but do not have

love, it profits me nothing.

>

> 4. Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does

not brag and is not arrogant.

>

> 5. Does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not

provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,

>

> 6. Does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the

truth,

>

> 7. Bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things,

endures all things.

>

> 8. Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will

be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is

knowledge, it will be done away.

>

> 9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;

>

> 10. But when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

>

> 11. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a

child, reason as a child; when I became a man; I did away with

childish things.

>

> 12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I

know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been

fully known.

>

> But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of

these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:1-13)

>

> Jagbir, between Chapter 12 (Pentecostal Stance) and Chapter 13

(Traditional Christian Stance), you have the basic differences

between `Pentecostals' and other `traditional Christian believers'.

>

> However, the next chapter, Chapter 14 is what makes Pentecostals

believe that their view is correct as against the view of the

traditional Christian believers' views, who basically totally

disregard Chapter 12. That is why `Pentecostal Christian' feel

spiritually/morally superior to the traditional Christian beliefs,

because `Pentecostals' do not believe that the traditional Christian

beliefs are the " Full Gospel " , because they ignore the " Spiritual

Gifts " as espoused in Chapter 12.

>

> Anyway, here is Chapter 14:

>

> " Prophecy is a Superior Gift " (New American Standard Bible)

> Author: (Apostle) Paul....

>

> 1. Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but

especially that you may prophesy.

>

> 2. For one who speaks in a tongue ( " glossolalia " ) does not speak

to men, but, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit

he speaks mysteries.

>

> 3. But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and

exhortation and consolation.

>

> 4. One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who

prophesies edifies the church.

>

> 5. Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that

you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who

speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may

receive edifying.

>

> 6. But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what

shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either by way of

revelation or knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?

>

> 7. Yet even lifeless things, either flute or harp, in producing a

sound, if they do not produce a distinction in the tones, how will

it be known what is played on the flute or on the harp?

>

> 8. For if the bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare

himself for battle?

>

> 9. So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is

clear, how will it be known what is spoken? (Referring to

`gibberish' here, a.k.a. `glossolalia') For you will be speaking

into the air.

>

> 10. There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the

world, and no kind is without meaning.

>

> 11. If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be

to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a

barbarian to me.

>

> 12. So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to

abound for the edification of the church.

>

> 13. Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may

interpret.

>

> 14. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is

unfruitful.

>

> 15. What is the outcome then? I shall pray with the spirit and I

shall pray with the mind also; I shall sing with the spirit and I

shall sing with the mind also.

>

> 16. Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one

who fills the place of the ungifted say the " Amen " at your giving of

thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?

>

> 17. For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other man is

not edified.

>

> 18. I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;

>

> 19. however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my

mind, that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand

words in a tongue. (1 Corinthians 14:1-19)

>

> Jagbir, you can see from Verse 18, that the (Apostle) Paul must

have been a `Pentecostal', because he says that he " speaks in

tongues " . Perhaps (Apostle) Paul was over-the-top, encouraging

Christians to 'try to prophecy', 'try to heal', all these things. i

mean, i think a lot of this must have been in the form of left/righ

channel 'siddhis'. i am beginning to think (Apostle) Paul was maybe

a bit 'unbalanced' and 'fanatical', because you don't go around

saying to people " Try to heal " , " Try to prophesy " , do you?! However,

my theory is, that because it was Peter and Paul who were the basis

of the continuing Official Church, that they included all of Paul's

idiosyncracies in the Bible, which today are embraced and

perpetuated by the so-called 'Pentecostals'.

>

> It also seems that because of the increasing popularity of

the 'Pentecostal Movement', that more 'traditional' Christian

Churches are also including more elements of the so-called " Full

Gospel " of the Pentecostals such as the Gift of Healing, for

example, but excluding less acceptable things like " prophesy "

or " speaking in tongues " (which is a strange phenomena anyway).

>

> Btw, for the Pentecostals, " Speaking in Tongues " .... not the Cool

Breeze.... is the Sure Sign of having the Baptism of the Holy

Spirit.

>

> In all of these Christian Churches (non-Pentecostal and

Pentecostal alike), there is no Cool Breeze of the Holy Spirit. They

all believe that the Cool Wind of the Holy Spirit was a 'once off'

Dispensation experienced only by the Disciples of Jesus on the Day

of Pentecost.

>

> Jagbir, I know that this is not the `edit' and `paste' style you

requested, however, as you can see it is a fairly 'deep' topic that

required more input than a brief Q and A style.

>

> Love and best wishes,

>

> Violet

>

> , " jagbir singh "

> <adishakti_org> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Violet,

> >

> > You told me that " Christians still do not know that they are

> > supposed to look for a Cool Breeze, because the Pentecostals

don't teach that. The Pentecostals teach about the Gifts of the

Spirit. "

> >

> > If you do not mind, can you elaborate/edit the same points and

> post it on the forum? i think this is a major topic that needs

public discussion so that its manifestation and implications can be

> > compared viz a viz mainstream Christianity. The self-

verification of Cool Breeze experienced by those who get their

Second Birth from the Spirit within themselves is the force de

rigeur of Sahaja Yoga.

> >

> > The Pentecostal churches do not teach about the Cool Breeze

> because their pastors have absolute no power to give Second Birth.

i have read a number of disturbing articles. One of them reads:

> >

> > " 50 Videos that document Pentecostal Manifestation Heresy!

> >

> > 1. See famous Pentecostal preachers practice mass hypnotic

> > induction, holy Laughter, slain in the spirit, animal sounds,

> > spiritual amnesia, spiritual muteness, spiritual drunkenness,

> > spontaneous movements, see someone do " the dead chicken " on the

> > floor and another while standing up! Hear the " redhead moo " and

> the preacher crow like a rooster. See the " left leg anointing " and

> > the " head wagging " prophetesses. Learn about the pain you feel

> when you're slain! Hear misquotes of the Bible within a prophecy!

Hear Bible reading openly mocked!

> >

> > See and hear Pentecostals and their Pastors worship in chaos and

> > misbehave in church services in ways that other church goers

> > discipline their children for, and blame it on the Holy Spirit!

> >

> > http://www.bible.ca/tongues-audio-video-documentation.htm

> >

> >

> > 2. Manifestations in non-Christian occult and satanic religions

> are identical to many modern Pentecostal churches.

> >

> > Gurus, Hypnotists and Pentecostals: Can you tell the difference?

> >

> >

> > 3. Most manifestations in modern Pentecostal churches and

revival meetings are not found in the Bible.

> > Bible Miracles and Modern day impostors!

> > Bible Tongue Speaking and Modern Impostors!

> > The 9 Spiritual Gifts of Bible defined

> > What is the Gift Of Tongues?

> > Slain in the Spirit is unbiblical and occult!

> > Former Pentecostal Pastor of 18 years converts to the

truth! " For me it was a conflict with the Bible, and I knew nothing

supernatural was happening! "

> > Pentecostals view non-Charismatics as dead and lifeless churches!

> >

> >

> > 4. Detailed theological refutation of 20th century tongues that

> > proves tongues ceased sometime around 100 AD.

> > Detailed Theological research paper:

> > Part 1: Intro and foundational arguments

> > Part 2: Exposition of 1 Cor 13:8-13

> > Part 3: Pentecostal arguments refuted

> >

> >

> > 5. Photo Galleries of fake Pentecostal miracles.

> > Fake TV Evangelist I.Q. Test

> >

> > Photo gallery: Pentecostal Miracle Trinkets

> >

> > Occult Fake miracles photo gallery

> >

> > TV's Peter Popoff proven to be a fraud

> >

> > Why are seriously crippled people (ie. paraplegics) NEVER healed

> > although Pentecostal churches are full of them???

> > Miracle workers who couldn't heal!

> >

> >

> > 6. Pentecostalism looks and feels good, but is it from God???

> > Encyclopedia of Pentecostal ministries their leaders,

> organizations and false doctrines EXPOSED!

> > Moral failures of the highest profile Pentecostal preachers

> > Many Pentecostals are Anti-doctrine, Anti-

intellectual " Knowledge is of the devil "

> > Pentecostalism: Worshipping God with you mind in neutral!

> > Pentecostalism: Founded by women who usurp their place!

> > Spiritual Supremacists: Most Pentecostals are spiritual elitists

> >

> >

> > 7. Would Jesus endorse the Pentecostal church where you attend?

> > Why I Left The Pentecostal Church After 18 years, this former

> > Pentecostal Pastor becomes a simple New Testament Christian and

> > continues to preach!

> > Major errors of Pentecostalism

> > Most Pentecostals sacrifice the Bible at the alter of their

> feelings!

> >

> >

> > 8. Nothing truly supernatural ever happens in today's

Pentecostal churches but there is a lot of emotionalism!

> >

> > How about surviving a snake bite??? WE CHOSE THE SNAKE!

$1,100,000 Challenge for one MIRACLE!

> > " Miracles have ceased " doesn't mean God is powerless!

> >

> >

> > 9. Encyclopedias and Dictionaries of Pentecostal and Occult

> > religions

> > Encyclopedia of Pentecostal history & tongues 150-1901 AD

> > Encyclopedia of occult terms & lingo Why do all these occult

> > definitions perfect fit many Pentecostals today???

> > Dictionary of Hindu, yoga terms & lingo

> > Encyclopedia of all known Pentecostal ministries

> >

> >

> > 10. History: Pentecostalism is the ancient heresy of " Montanism "

> > revived

> > 150 AD: Montanism: The Ancient roots of Pentecostalism

> > 150-1901 AD Does history prove Pentecostalism?

> > 1901-Today " Neo-Montanism " : Modern roots of Pentecostalism

> >

> > http://www.bible.ca/tongues.htm

> >

> >

> > The Cool Breeze comes from within and this evidence must be self-

> > verified by the seeker to know that he/she is truly born of the

> > Spirit. This Divine power lies within the person, a miracle of

> God's direct action to fulfill His Promise to humanity.

> >

> > " The term " miracle " has been subjected to indiscriminate usage

in our time. Almost anything unusual is incorrectly styled

> a " miracle " .

> > God is present and active throughout our universe through

> > instrumentality of natural laws, but even natural laws are those

> of whom God is author. A miracle is an instance of God's direct

> action, as distinguished from His mediate or indirect action

through natural laws. For instance, when Jesus fed the 5,000 with a

lad's lunch of five loaves and two fishes, this was a miracle. If

the lad had fed himself with the lunch he had prepared, this would

have been a perfectly natural event. (Matthew 14:15-21). The

difference is that the latter would have been in perfect conformity

with natural law; the former required utilizing divine power. "

> >

> > There are tens of thousands of SYs who experience this Cool

Breeze daily. Let us not forget the hundreds of thousands of seekers

who did feel this Cool Breeze over countless numbers of SY public

> > programs and health fairs but left because, since they were

never told the Truth, found it no big deal as they could not relate

it to their religious upbringing. Perhaps in future many of these

> seekers, and Pentecostal churchgoers too, may find out that the

Wind that the Disciples of Jesus felt on the Day of Pentecost is a

daily experience for those taking part in the Resurrection and Last

> > Judgment.

> >

> > with love and season's greetings,

> >

> >

> > jagbir

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Jagbir and Violet, and all Sahaja Yogis/Yoginis

 

As someone who has studied, and attended MANY religions through my life, and

have even attended a few Pentecostal services, may I add a little something

to all of this. Violet, you have done well, first in adding the biblical

truths to explainations. It is true, that the " Cool Breeze " , you feel, and

what they feel, and the being " Born again " syndrome can be confused, and

thought to mean the same. Not ALL religions are correct but they are all

similiar, in certain ways because Satan is a lier and is REALLY GOOD at it.

After all He/She was Lucifer ( angel of light) and very beautiful and was

kicked out of Heaven and time is short so all kinds of miracles and signs

and manifestations will accompany Him/Her as they need to fool people NOW.

Time is growing short. However, IF any one refuses to believe that Christ

walked the Earth and died on the cross and rose again, that is the FALSE

CHURCH... AND ALSO IT IS TRUE THAT THE SPEAKING IN TOUNGUES AND MANY OF the

Pentecostal line of miracles are found in Satanism and other false beliefs.

Reiki and Theraputic Touch ( which I also have studied) are ways people use

to BALANCE energies and are used in many hospitals today, but Therapeutic

Touch ( as taught by a Catholic Nun in a hospital in church I took the

training) will admit THAT is ONLY from THEM and the heat that people feel OR

THE COOL< ness is from the person holding the hands near them,, so you are

using your OWN energy. Now with REIKI they believe it comes fro Universal

LIFE ENERGY, or FORCE, from God or the Source of ALL theer is... NOT from

the person and the one being healed and the one administrering often feels

MANY sensations, of heat, cold, breezes, tingling, energy and on and on.

This does not make it the healing from God.

 

What I am trying to say, is so many COPY CAT things and religions out there

that you can be fooled and be following a lie, served by the evil one and

His/Her angels. They are in the ethers around us, and the Bible came from

what they say " Holy Spirit Filled men " who wrote what was given them by the

Holy Spirit, so everyone has different thougts, but not ALL are right as

that is what will usher in the NEW WORLD ORDER which in reality wil be led

by the ANTI CHRIST, Himself/ Herself. Now the reason I am saying male or

female as many say satan must be of male origien but is said to be the MOST

BEAUTIFUL and was loved by God, and was VERY SMART but wanted to COMPETE for

the POWER of BEING GOD, and GOD SAIS " NO " . we fight not against flesh but

agains powers on high, in the ethers, that is where satan and his/her angels

are the spiritual world around us, and we wrestle each day with the evil

around us and negativity, and we have a CHOICE, so yes we may have been

born into sin, but we can be made new in Christ, and we can CHOOSE to serve

the antichrist or the TRUE Christ.It is confusing for people, as so many

false Christs ARE and Have been out there over the years. People have

followed their Gurus for years and called them God. ( many have wanted to

compete for that power) Thiis is nothing NEW.. We can worship ANYTHING even

Money, but that is the sin, the real thing to worship, is GOD/ Jesus who was

not just another Prophet of the time, he was able to shed his blood and it

was PURE enough to set us free. How many can die and their blood is PURE

enough to do that? So it is all a choice, but also it is a hard one as the

imitators are out here and copy the miracles VERY well, how else can they

fool people. Even the ghost things, we hear about, are often set up by the

evil one to make us have a contact with the the dead call necromancy which

we are not to do. Sometimes the spirits above can come to us, but many

times, it is evil trying to lure us into what we should not be into then

they have us! Our life is not the same from that point. What is worse is

that eternity will be a crisis by following the wrong God. We are talking

life or death at this point so we NEED to get it right....

 

Cannot get too indepth here, but the idea is, we have a choice to follow

the TRUE CHRIST or the FALSE one, it is all up to us, and no ones business,

but out of LOVE people sometimes try to nudge us in the right direction.

Guess I am saying to EVERYONE and even me, as I had to try various religions

to learn, and I can see how easy it is to be led astray, by the false

manifestations which can be wrong. Many things bring energy fields around us

and give tingling effects and heat and cold, etc but does not make it the

Hoily Spirit,( emotions do not make it so) we must be careful what we are

feeling and via Hysteria and hypnotism does play a role in this stuff too,

we want SO MUCH to find the LORD, we would feel it ( whether pentecostal or

whatever) anyway.

 

As long as we follow the Jesus of the Bible the Savior who is coming a

second time for the judgement, last time for salvation, we will do fine.

Some things in the Bible have probably been intrepreted wrong, as some

people were maybe NOT filled with the Spirit either, and things were hidden

or accidently translated from Hebrew ( old Testament) and Greek ( New

Testament) and so mistakes could happen to a degree. But Jeus walked the

Earth to TEACH us HOW to live.

 

 

 

Well sorry this is long, and just feel that being INVOVED in various

religions I know FIRST HAND what I have seen and felt and know the

difference now of the TRUE AND FAKE, but STILL could be misled, must be

watchful always. The devil walks as a praying lion ready to kill. Also

Martyrs did become Saints as they would die for their belief, and Christians

may need to do that again, when the' One World Religion' gets ushered in,

which is starting already, They will try to put ALL nationalities and

religions TOGETHER, so we will no longer have an apostolic church because

some things are not in the Bible, some have been handed down by word of

mouth, by the apostles like our families tell things about our grandparents,

again maybe some changed but the basis will stay the same. Jesus asked the

disciples to set up ONE church not twenty Million denominations,( The one

was the way it was to have been KEPT< but the ONE WORLD ORDER WILL PUT ALL

BELIEFS TOGETHER TO SEEMINGLY MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY AND NOT INFRINGE ON

ANYONES BELIEF SYSTEM>) but I will not get into that now, but the truth

being the Romans broke off in 1054, and started their own and the Lutherns

and then on and on and on. Many religions came to be. The pagans have always

been here but that is not Christian of course, at all. We are to Worship

ONE true God not many which some religions have done and do yet. It is not

up to me to judge anyone lest I be judged, but do know we must be careful we

do not get led astray by the false belief system, and be willing to keep our

faith till the end of time. The belief that Jesus came and will come again.

We all agree the last days ARE HERE NOW< TIME IS SHORT, AND LUCIFER HAS MANY

MIRACULOUS TRICKS IN STORE to copy the truth. We can all be careful and

watchful.

 

Spoken in love and not to judge,i

 

IN Christ,

 

Carol ann

 

 

> " jagbir singh " <adishakti_org

>

>

> Are the Pentecostals and false gurus using

>the same methods 'to slay in spirit'?

>Mon, 19 Dec 2005 15:28:02 -0000

>

>Dear Violet,

>

>i could not really grasp the perculiar unlike-Jesus meanings of 1

>Corinthians till you metioned:

>

> " Jagbir, you can see from Verse 18, that the (Apostle) Paul must

>have been a `Pentecostal', because he says that he " speaks in

>tongues " . Perhaps (Apostle) Paul was over-the-top, encouraging

>Christians to 'try to prophecy', 'try to heal', all these things. i

>mean, i think a lot of this must have been in the form of left/righ

>channel 'siddhis'. i am beginning to think (Apostle) Paul was

>maybe a bit 'unbalanced' and 'fanatical', because you don't go

>around saying to people " Try to heal " , " Try to prophesy " , do you?!

>However, my theory is, that because it was Peter and Paul who were

>the basis of the continuing Official Church, that they included all

>of Paul's idiosyncracies in the Bible, which today are embraced and

>perpetuated by the so-called 'Pentecostals'. "

>

>You see Violet i have always persisted in the " What did Jesus Say? "

>approach to the Bible. There are just too many authors in a book

>that was compiled 400 years later. FOUR HUNDRED YEARS! With that in

>mind, and with the Church editing it prior to final compilation, you

>just do not know if what you are reading is in accordance to Jesus'

>teachings. i have never been comfortable with the Bible and always

>seek the words spoken by Jesus. Shri Mataji's warning only

>reinforced that:

>

> " After Lord Jesus Christ the ordinary people started following the

>religion started by Paul, and then everything started going wrong.

>In this way, in every religion things went wrong because religion

>became difficult and inaccessible. " (Shri Mataji)

>

> " Also, Christianity spread under the wrong banner of Paul and

>Augustine. And that's how we see the Christianity, so much so that

>we are shocked how can Christianity of Christ be like this. And this

>Christianity that has come has nothing to do with Christ. And He has

>said that, " You'll be calling Me `Christ, Christ' and I won't

>recognise you. " " (Shri Mataji)

>

>

>Corinthians fits that warning perfectly. And we have more about Paul

>who profoundly influenced Christianity.

>

> " The term original sin is not found in the Bible. Theologians who

>advocate the doctrine of original sin argue, however, that it is

>strongly implied by Paul (see Romans 7), by John (see 1 John 5:19),

>and even by Jesus himself (see Luke 11:13.) Behind this New

>Testament teaching lies the world view of late Jewish apocalyptic

>writings. Some of these writings attribute the corrupt state of the

>world to a prehistoric fall of Satan, the subsequent temptation of

>Adam and Eve, and the immersion of human history thereafter in

>disorder, disobedience, and pain. "

>

>Microsoft Encarta 96 Encyclopedia

>

>

> " At Romans 5:12-18 Paul himself tells his Roman Christians how

>through one man, Adam, sin 'entered into the world' and by the sin

>of one man death reigned too. These famous verses have inspired

>whole theories of sin and original sin which have changed many

>Christians' perspective on human nature. It seems clear that the

>Fall of Adam and Eve was just not the moral tale of a single

>couple's after: the story was meant to be the origin of a change for

>all subsequent humans. It is not, however, stated that what

>originated was sin or sinfulness, words which occur nowhere in the

>Hebrew text. It was St. Augustine who ended by arguing that original

>sin had been transmitted to each of us through Adam, a view which he

>backed up by Paul's language in Romans 5. However, he followed a

>mistranslation of it, based only on a Latin version of the text.

>Paul's Greek had merely said that 'death passed upon all men,

>because [in that] all sinned'; Augustine followed an author who

>mistook it to say 'death passed upon all men because of Adam, [in

>whom] all sinned . . .' Original sin was read unnecessarily into

>Genesis and was then forced on to Paul by a wrong translation of his

>writings. In Genesis, nothing prevents us from thinking that Adam

>and Eve from the start of their lives had been expected to make

>love, reproduce and eventually die.

>

>The message of the New Testament Christians, 'We preach Christ

>crucified,' is only rendered slightly more complicated by today's

>Evangelicals: 'You are a sinner bound for hell. . . . why are we

>sinners? Is it actually possible for a human being not to be a

>sinner? No, because 'All have sinned, and come short of the glory of

>God' (Romans 3:23.) So is this our fault, because of free will, or

>God's, for creating us that way? "

>

>Robin Lane Fox, The Unauthorized Version: Truth and fiction in the

>Bible, Penguin Books Ltd, 1991, p. 24.

>

>(Robin Lane Fox, a fellow of New College, Oxford and a University

>Reader in Ancient History, has written The Unauthorized Version:

>Truth and fiction in the Bible which is a " tour de force in a vast

>landscape; it leaves us with a clearer view of many of the high

>points, from the Creation to the Nativity and the narratives of

>Jesus' trial. Vigorously written, it is a challenge to anyone whose

>memories of the Bible are haphazard or who takes a simple view

>of 'what the Bible says. " )

>

>

> " If God knows everything, he already knows (in fact, he knew before

>he created Adam) who will be saved and who will be damned. But is

>this foreknowledge or predestination? Are we condemned because of

>Adam's sin or our own? Does 'original sin' mean that because birth

>results from sexual intercourse, the parents' sinfulness passes into

>the baby, and does that mean sex is sinful?

>

>Similar questions can be asked — and discussed endlessly — about

>every single term in Christian theology.

>

>Jesus' teachings is in complete contrast to this. He never spoke of

>original sin; everything he said ran counter to the notion of a

>collective guilt that would fall on generation after generation. He

>never talked of the expiation of sins beings the condition of entry

>into the new society, into the Kingdom. On the contrary, one's very

>entry into the Kingdom means that one's sins have been washed away —

>which does not mean that this Kingdom is one where anything goes,

>for as we have seen the rules of the new society are truly

>demanding . . . Jesus never claimed that he had to die to 'atone

>for' humanity's sins. This would mean that a God who demanded,

>through His son, that one should forgive 'seventy-seven times

>seven' — that is, always — would Himself be unable to do as

>much . . .

>

>In fact, Jesus called people to joy and a renewal of the Covenant

>between God and men. There are many calls to joy in the

>gospels: 'The Kingdom of Heaven may be compared to a king who gave a

>feast for his son's wedding;' You will eat and drink at my table in

>my kingdom;' 'Rejoice with me . . . I have found my sheep that was

>lost;' 'The Kingdom of Heaven is like treasure in a field which

>someone has found; he hides it again, goes off happy, sells

>everything he owns and buys the field' — and so on. "

>

>Jacques Duquesne, Jesus: An Unconventional Biography,

>Triump Books, 1997 p. 155-56.

>

>

>But what truly stumps me is the way the church ministers infuse the

>believers with the 'holy spirit' which is similar to what Osho,

>Muktananda and other false gurus administer their devotees by

>shaktipat (touch):

>

> " A bolt of electricity passing through his body. Passing from one

>person to the next, moving around the circle, coming back to him.

>The group began shaking violently. It was as if they were all

>possessed, taken over by a powerful impersonal energy. "

>

>Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, " Dance Your Way To God " pg. 148

>

>

> " Suddenly her body was shaking, she was screaming. Somendra was

>moving around her - touching her on the back of her neck, on the

>chest, on the belly. As he'd touch her, his hands vibrating with

>energy, the part of her body where he touched her would begin

>shaking more violently. Shaking, screaming, crying - she became a

>dynamo of energy...she was on fire, from the opposite corner they

>could feel her energy. "

>

>Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, " Dance Your Way To God " pg. 149

>

>

>Violet, i remember you writing something about left and right

>sympathetic channels that cause such a phenomena. Are the

>Pentecostals and false gurus using the same methods 'to slay in

>spirit'? i will wait for the answers before proceeding further. And

>please do not think i want cut and paste answers. You should always

>answer collectively, not individually.

>

>love and season's greetings,

>

>

>jagbir

>

>

>

> , " Violet " <vtubb@b...>

>wrote:

> >

> > Dear Jagbir,

> >

> > The so-called Baptism of the Holy Spirit in Pentecostalism is done

>through what is called as the `laying on of hands'. It is done as

>part of the Church Service when the Minister uses his right hand and

>places it on the head of the recipient, and declares/prays over the

>recipient by saying something like: `In the name of the Father, the

>Son, and the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost be now received!'

> >

> > Then the Holy Ghost `transmission' is passed on from the Minister

>to the recipient in what is felt like a hot radiating heat that

>leaves the right hand of the Minister's hand and it goes into the

>Sahasrara (head) of the recipient. People like the experience. It

>gives them a real `high' (siddhi).

> >

> > I once asked a Pentecostal `Church of God' Minister where he got

>this power to give the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. He told me he was

>initiated into it from another Minister who already had it.

> >

> > The teaching in the Pentecostal Church is that once a person

>receives this Baptism of the Holy Spirit, they can then expect to

>see the Gifts of the Holy Spirit operative in their lives, as

>described in the 12th Chapter of I Corinthians, where these Gifts of

>the Spirit are described. This Chapter is the MAIN TENET of all

>Christian 'Pentecostal' Style Religions.

> >

> > Here it is:

> >

> > " The Use of Spiritual Gifts " (New American Standard Bible)

> > Author: (Apostle) Paul....

> >

> > 1. " Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to

>be unaware.

> >

> > 2. You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the

>dumb idols, however you were led.

> >

> > 3. Therefore I make known to you, that no one speaking by the

>Spirit of God says, " Jesus is accursed " ; and no one can say " Jesus

>is Lord, " except by the Holy Spirit.

> >

> > 4. Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.

> >

> > 5. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.

> >

> > 6. And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works

>all things in all persons.

> >

> > 7. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for

>the common good.

> >

> > 8. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and

>to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit.

> >

> > 9. To another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of

>healing by the one Spirit.

> >

> > 10. And to another the effecting of miracles, and to another

>prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another

>various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of

>tongues.

> >

> > 11. But one and the same Spirit works all these things,

>distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

> >

> > 12. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all

>the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also

>is Christ.

> >

> > 13. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether

>Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to

>drink of one Spirit.

> >

> > 14. For the body is not one member, but many.

> >

> > 15. If the foot should say, " Because I am not the hand, I am not a

>part of the body, " it is not for this reason any the less a part of

>the body.

> >

> > 16. And if the ear should say, " Because I am not an eye, I am not

>a part of the body, " it is not for this reason any the less a part

>of the body.

> >

> > 17. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If

>the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?

> >

> > 18. But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the

>body, just as He desired.

> >

> > 19. And if they were all one member, where would the body be?

> >

> > 20. But now there are many members, but one body.

> >

> > 21. And the eye cannot say to the hand, " I have no need of you " ,

>or again the head to the feet, " I have no need of you. "

> >

> > 22. On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the

>body, which seem to be weaker, are necessary;

> >

> > 23. And those members of the body, which we deem less honorable,

>on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our unseemly members

>come to have more abundant seemliness,

> >

> > 24. Whereas our seemly members have no need of it. But God has so

>composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which

>lacked,

> >

> > 25. That there should be no division in the body, but that the

>members should have the same care for one another.

> >

> > 26. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if

>one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

> >

> > 27. Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it,

> >

> > 28. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second

>(ly) prophets, third(ly) teachers, then miracles, then gifts of

>healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

> >

> > 29. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are

>they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of

>miracles, are they?

> >

> > 30. All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak

>with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

> >

> > 31. But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still

>more excellent way. " (1 Corinthians 12:1-31)

> >

> > Jagbir, Verse 31 leads you to where the non-Pentecostal Mainstream

>Traditional Christian Churches base their views. They generally

>disregard the 12th Chapter with the Gifts of the Spirit, and opt to

>go with the 13th Chapter, which stresses the more excellent way of

>love.

> >

> > Here it is:

> >

> > " The Excellence of Love " (New American Standard Bible)

> >

> > 1. " If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not

>have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

> >

> > 2. And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and

>all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains,

>but do not have love, I am nothing.

> >

> > 3. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I

>deliver my body to be burned (suicide bombers?!), but do not have

>love, it profits me nothing.

> >

> > 4. Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does

>not brag and is not arrogant.

> >

> > 5. Does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not

>provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,

> >

> > 6. Does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the

>truth,

> >

> > 7. Bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things,

>endures all things.

> >

> > 8. Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will

>be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is

>knowledge, it will be done away.

> >

> > 9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;

> >

> > 10. But when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

> >

> > 11. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a

>child, reason as a child; when I became a man; I did away with

>childish things.

> >

> > 12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I

>know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been

>fully known.

> >

> > But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of

>these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:1-13)

> >

> > Jagbir, between Chapter 12 (Pentecostal Stance) and Chapter 13

>(Traditional Christian Stance), you have the basic differences

>between `Pentecostals' and other `traditional Christian believers'.

> >

> > However, the next chapter, Chapter 14 is what makes Pentecostals

>believe that their view is correct as against the view of the

>traditional Christian believers' views, who basically totally

>disregard Chapter 12. That is why `Pentecostal Christian' feel

>spiritually/morally superior to the traditional Christian beliefs,

>because `Pentecostals' do not believe that the traditional Christian

>beliefs are the " Full Gospel " , because they ignore the " Spiritual

>Gifts " as espoused in Chapter 12.

> >

> > Anyway, here is Chapter 14:

> >

> > " Prophecy is a Superior Gift " (New American Standard Bible)

> > Author: (Apostle) Paul....

> >

> > 1. Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but

>especially that you may prophesy.

> >

> > 2. For one who speaks in a tongue ( " glossolalia " ) does not speak

>to men, but, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit

>he speaks mysteries.

> >

> > 3. But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and

>exhortation and consolation.

> >

> > 4. One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who

>prophesies edifies the church.

> >

> > 5. Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that

>you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who

>speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may

>receive edifying.

> >

> > 6. But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what

>shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either by way of

>revelation or knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?

> >

> > 7. Yet even lifeless things, either flute or harp, in producing a

>sound, if they do not produce a distinction in the tones, how will

>it be known what is played on the flute or on the harp?

> >

> > 8. For if the bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare

>himself for battle?

> >

> > 9. So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is

>clear, how will it be known what is spoken? (Referring to

>`gibberish' here, a.k.a. `glossolalia') For you will be speaking

>into the air.

> >

> > 10. There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the

>world, and no kind is without meaning.

> >

> > 11. If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be

>to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a

>barbarian to me.

> >

> > 12. So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to

>abound for the edification of the church.

> >

> > 13. Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may

>interpret.

> >

> > 14. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is

>unfruitful.

> >

> > 15. What is the outcome then? I shall pray with the spirit and I

>shall pray with the mind also; I shall sing with the spirit and I

>shall sing with the mind also.

> >

> > 16. Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one

>who fills the place of the ungifted say the " Amen " at your giving of

>thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?

> >

> > 17. For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other man is

>not edified.

> >

> > 18. I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;

> >

> > 19. however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my

>mind, that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand

>words in a tongue. (1 Corinthians 14:1-19)

> >

> > Jagbir, you can see from Verse 18, that the (Apostle) Paul must

>have been a `Pentecostal', because he says that he " speaks in

>tongues " . Perhaps (Apostle) Paul was over-the-top, encouraging

>Christians to 'try to prophecy', 'try to heal', all these things. i

>mean, i think a lot of this must have been in the form of left/righ

>channel 'siddhis'. i am beginning to think (Apostle) Paul was maybe

>a bit 'unbalanced' and 'fanatical', because you don't go around

>saying to people " Try to heal " , " Try to prophesy " , do you?! However,

>my theory is, that because it was Peter and Paul who were the basis

>of the continuing Official Church, that they included all of Paul's

>idiosyncracies in the Bible, which today are embraced and

>perpetuated by the so-called 'Pentecostals'.

> >

> > It also seems that because of the increasing popularity of

>the 'Pentecostal Movement', that more 'traditional' Christian

>Churches are also including more elements of the so-called " Full

>Gospel " of the Pentecostals such as the Gift of Healing, for

>example, but excluding less acceptable things like " prophesy "

>or " speaking in tongues " (which is a strange phenomena anyway).

> >

> > Btw, for the Pentecostals, " Speaking in Tongues " .... not the Cool

>Breeze.... is the Sure Sign of having the Baptism of the Holy

>Spirit.

> >

> > In all of these Christian Churches (non-Pentecostal and

>Pentecostal alike), there is no Cool Breeze of the Holy Spirit. They

>all believe that the Cool Wind of the Holy Spirit was a 'once off'

>Dispensation experienced only by the Disciples of Jesus on the Day

>of Pentecost.

> >

> > Jagbir, I know that this is not the `edit' and `paste' style you

>requested, however, as you can see it is a fairly 'deep' topic that

>required more input than a brief Q and A style.

> >

> > Love and best wishes,

> >

> > Violet

> >

> > , " jagbir singh "

> > <adishakti_org> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Violet,

> > >

> > > You told me that " Christians still do not know that they are

> > > supposed to look for a Cool Breeze, because the Pentecostals

>don't teach that. The Pentecostals teach about the Gifts of the

>Spirit. "

> > >

> > > If you do not mind, can you elaborate/edit the same points and

> > post it on the forum? i think this is a major topic that needs

>public discussion so that its manifestation and implications can be

> > > compared viz a viz mainstream Christianity. The self-

>verification of Cool Breeze experienced by those who get their

>Second Birth from the Spirit within themselves is the force de

>rigeur of Sahaja Yoga.

> > >

> > > The Pentecostal churches do not teach about the Cool Breeze

> > because their pastors have absolute no power to give Second Birth.

>i have read a number of disturbing articles. One of them reads:

> > >

> > > " 50 Videos that document Pentecostal Manifestation Heresy!

> > >

> > > 1. See famous Pentecostal preachers practice mass hypnotic

> > > induction, holy Laughter, slain in the spirit, animal sounds,

> > > spiritual amnesia, spiritual muteness, spiritual drunkenness,

> > > spontaneous movements, see someone do " the dead chicken " on the

> > > floor and another while standing up! Hear the " redhead moo " and

> > the preacher crow like a rooster. See the " left leg anointing " and

> > > the " head wagging " prophetesses. Learn about the pain you feel

> > when you're slain! Hear misquotes of the Bible within a prophecy!

>Hear Bible reading openly mocked!

> > >

> > > See and hear Pentecostals and their Pastors worship in chaos and

> > > misbehave in church services in ways that other church goers

> > > discipline their children for, and blame it on the Holy Spirit!

> > >

> > > http://www.bible.ca/tongues-audio-video-documentation.htm

> > >

> > >

> > > 2. Manifestations in non-Christian occult and satanic religions

> > are identical to many modern Pentecostal churches.

> > >

> > > Gurus, Hypnotists and Pentecostals: Can you tell the difference?

> > >

> > >

> > > 3. Most manifestations in modern Pentecostal churches and

>revival meetings are not found in the Bible.

> > > Bible Miracles and Modern day impostors!

> > > Bible Tongue Speaking and Modern Impostors!

> > > The 9 Spiritual Gifts of Bible defined

> > > What is the Gift Of Tongues?

> > > Slain in the Spirit is unbiblical and occult!

> > > Former Pentecostal Pastor of 18 years converts to the

>truth! " For me it was a conflict with the Bible, and I knew nothing

>supernatural was happening! "

> > > Pentecostals view non-Charismatics as dead and lifeless churches!

> > >

> > >

> > > 4. Detailed theological refutation of 20th century tongues that

> > > proves tongues ceased sometime around 100 AD.

> > > Detailed Theological research paper:

> > > Part 1: Intro and foundational arguments

> > > Part 2: Exposition of 1 Cor 13:8-13

> > > Part 3: Pentecostal arguments refuted

> > >

> > >

> > > 5. Photo Galleries of fake Pentecostal miracles.

> > > Fake TV Evangelist I.Q. Test

> > >

> > > Photo gallery: Pentecostal Miracle Trinkets

> > >

> > > Occult Fake miracles photo gallery

> > >

> > > TV's Peter Popoff proven to be a fraud

> > >

> > > Why are seriously crippled people (ie. paraplegics) NEVER healed

> > > although Pentecostal churches are full of them???

> > > Miracle workers who couldn't heal!

> > >

> > >

> > > 6. Pentecostalism looks and feels good, but is it from God???

> > > Encyclopedia of Pentecostal ministries their leaders,

> > organizations and false doctrines EXPOSED!

> > > Moral failures of the highest profile Pentecostal preachers

> > > Many Pentecostals are Anti-doctrine, Anti-

>intellectual " Knowledge is of the devil "

> > > Pentecostalism: Worshipping God with you mind in neutral!

> > > Pentecostalism: Founded by women who usurp their place!

> > > Spiritual Supremacists: Most Pentecostals are spiritual elitists

> > >

> > >

> > > 7. Would Jesus endorse the Pentecostal church where you attend?

> > > Why I Left The Pentecostal Church After 18 years, this former

> > > Pentecostal Pastor becomes a simple New Testament Christian and

> > > continues to preach!

> > > Major errors of Pentecostalism

> > > Most Pentecostals sacrifice the Bible at the alter of their

> > feelings!

> > >

> > >

> > > 8. Nothing truly supernatural ever happens in today's

>Pentecostal churches but there is a lot of emotionalism!

> > >

> > > How about surviving a snake bite??? WE CHOSE THE SNAKE!

>$1,100,000 Challenge for one MIRACLE!

> > > " Miracles have ceased " doesn't mean God is powerless!

> > >

> > >

> > > 9. Encyclopedias and Dictionaries of Pentecostal and Occult

> > > religions

> > > Encyclopedia of Pentecostal history & tongues 150-1901 AD

> > > Encyclopedia of occult terms & lingo Why do all these occult

> > > definitions perfect fit many Pentecostals today???

> > > Dictionary of Hindu, yoga terms & lingo

> > > Encyclopedia of all known Pentecostal ministries

> > >

> > >

> > > 10. History: Pentecostalism is the ancient heresy of " Montanism "

> > > revived

> > > 150 AD: Montanism: The Ancient roots of Pentecostalism

> > > 150-1901 AD Does history prove Pentecostalism?

> > > 1901-Today " Neo-Montanism " : Modern roots of Pentecostalism

> > >

> > > http://www.bible.ca/tongues.htm

> > >

> > >

> > > The Cool Breeze comes from within and this evidence must be self-

> > > verified by the seeker to know that he/she is truly born of the

> > > Spirit. This Divine power lies within the person, a miracle of

> > God's direct action to fulfill His Promise to humanity.

> > >

> > > " The term " miracle " has been subjected to indiscriminate usage

>in our time. Almost anything unusual is incorrectly styled

> > a " miracle " .

> > > God is present and active throughout our universe through

> > > instrumentality of natural laws, but even natural laws are those

> > of whom God is author. A miracle is an instance of God's direct

> > action, as distinguished from His mediate or indirect action

>through natural laws. For instance, when Jesus fed the 5,000 with a

>lad's lunch of five loaves and two fishes, this was a miracle. If

>the lad had fed himself with the lunch he had prepared, this would

>have been a perfectly natural event. (Matthew 14:15-21). The

>difference is that the latter would have been in perfect conformity

>with natural law; the former required utilizing divine power. "

> > >

> > > There are tens of thousands of SYs who experience this Cool

>Breeze daily. Let us not forget the hundreds of thousands of seekers

>who did feel this Cool Breeze over countless numbers of SY public

> > > programs and health fairs but left because, since they were

>never told the Truth, found it no big deal as they could not relate

>it to their religious upbringing. Perhaps in future many of these

> > seekers, and Pentecostal churchgoers too, may find out that the

>Wind that the Disciples of Jesus felt on the Day of Pentecost is a

>daily experience for those taking part in the Resurrection and Last

> > > Judgment.

> > >

> > > with love and season's greetings,

> > >

> > >

> > > jagbir

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " jagbir singh "

<adishakti_org> wrote:

>

> Are the Pentecostals and false gurus using the same methods 'to

> slay in spirit'?

>

 

Scriptural and Theological Concerns about the Revival at Brownsville

A/G -- and other churches like it by Rev. KD

June 4,1997

 

[Ed. note: this essay has been edited to remove the identity of

the author (at his request) and to conceal the identity of the

church.]

 

 

--------------------------------

 

It is said of Rev. David Cho, pastor of the world's largest church

in Soul Korea, that while he was in the U.S. speaking in the early

1990s, he took out a map and aimed his finger at an unknown

location. It fell on Pensacola, Florida. Cho made the claim that a

mighty revival would break out there, and it would affect America.

 

On Fathers Day in June of 1995 the revival supposedly began at

Brownsville Assembly in Pensacola, Florida. A guest evangelist by

the name of Steve Hill from Texas was the speaker. John Kilpatrick

was the pastor.

 

Many strange physical manifestations began to take place. People

would fall over backwards in an experience called " being slain in

the Spirit. " Others would shake, quiver, or twitch. Some would shake

uncontrollably as if they had cerebral palsy or Parkinson's Disease.

It was said that the " Glory of God " came on them so heavily that

their bodies could not handle it.

 

There are also others who were said to have become " drunk in the

Spirit. " They collapsed onto the floor or a chair and would lay

unable to move for hours. Supposedly they are " drinking in the

Spirit " or having " spiritual surgery " where God is changing them and

making corrections on their life. It is not uncommon to see some of

these brought out of the service in a wheelchair.

 

It has been reported that teenagers who have " the gift of shaking "

cannot control the shaking at home or at school. Some students in

Pensacola shook uncontrollably so that school authorities called the

church.

 

I have personally visited Brownsville Assembly and have known many

that claim to have experienced unusual physical manifestations while

there.

 

I have been an ordained Assemblies of God minister for over 20

years. Our denominational leaders have put their stamp of approval

on this revival and have encouraged many of their ministers to

attend Brownsville and bring the manifestations back to their

churches. I feel very uncomfortable with these manifestations along

with numerous things that are being taught along with it.

 

I have been an assistant pastor at an Assemblies of God church in

the Chicago area … for the past four years. The senior pastor has

been a strong supporter of this revival and has yearned for

the " Pensacola " revival to happen at his church for well over one

year. In fact he made sure the church sent every pastor on staff,

along with as many deacons as possible, to visit Brownsville

Assembly.

 

He would often say from the pulpit that the " Pensacola " revival

would come to [our] church. He talked often about how his experience

of being " drunk in the spirit " at Brownsville changed his life. That

along with an experience of being " slain in the Spirit " through

evangelist Mike Evans during a service in May of 1996, at [our]

Church, where he laid on the floor for a long time. These motivated

the Pastor to do all he could to bring the " revival " to his church.

 

A supposed outbreak of the revival began to take place in Grand

Rapids, Michigan. So the pastor promoted a trip there for any church

leaders or members to see what it's all about. Approximately 20 or

so attended.

 

There was one challenge: the pastor couldn't create this revival on

his own, so he had to bring in an outside evangelist to do it. He

got in touch with an " up and coming " promoter of the " Pensacola "

revival named Wayne Neal from Springfield, Missouri. Neal had been

pastor of an Assemblies of God church when about a year ago he felt

spiritually dry and empty. This led him go to the " Pensacola

revival. " While there he was singled out by Pastor John Kilpatrick

and told " God has a special ministry for him with signs, wonders and

souls. "

 

Rev. Neal resigned his church and went out as a revival evangelist.

Being invited to speak at the Assembly of God church in Bolivar,

Missouri, he ended up preaching there for 13 straight weeks. In

April of 1997 he came to hold meetings at [our] Church.

 

The stage was set. Everything was in place for a Pensacola type

revival to occur—and it did. At the end of each service people began

to fall backwards all over the place along with numerous individuals

shaking.

 

Many pastors and professors in the Assemblies of God are

uncomfortable with these types of expressions. Granted God can do

some things to individual believers that are out of the ordinary.

But to mass-produce physical responses at the instruction of the

preacher puts man more in control than God. People shouldn't have to

visit some place to pick something up and bring it back. If God

orchestrates something it will happen regardless of the particular

pastor or evangelist.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that the pastor and church leaders are

sincere and believe this is a great and refreshing thing. Yet

sincerity does not make it right.

 

I felt very uneasy about it. Rev. Neal kept saying, " this is God's

last revival before He returns. If you don't get in to this one

you'll have no others. This one is the River of God. If you question

it or fight against it you are coming against Almighty God. "

 

The church leadership was admonished if they wanted this revival to

increase and intensify they had to get behind it or get out of the

way. Total unity and agreement was requested on the part of all

staff pastors and church leaders.

 

I heard and witnessed many alarming things while present at these

meetings. Let me share some of them.

 

1. Manipulation. The people are conditioned to believe that when

the " Glory of God " comes they should expect a physical response like

falling down or shaking. A passage from 2 Chronicles 7:1-3 is often

mentioned to show that when the " glory " falls power is present to

knock people over. But in the context of this passage when Solomon

dedicated the temple the " fire of the Lord came down...and the glory

of the Lord filled the temple... and the priests could not enter the

house of God. " God made a special appearance to show His blessing on

this new Temple. It was a one-time occurrence. It did not happen

every day.

 

Yet people are told to expect a Divine visitation at every service

so strong that it will knock you off your feet and cause some of you

to shake uncontrollably. The people are being manipulated and worked

in to a frenzy.

 

If all of this really was God why would church leaders relegate it

to happen only Sunday through Wednesday? When God did things in the

Bible He controlled when something happened or not. Much of this is

man's desire to control and manipulate others to think " some great

and exciting thing is happening through us come and see and

experience it for yourself. "

 

2. Subjectivism. " Do you feel the awesome Presence and Glory of the

Lord? I feel it strong now. There is a unique anointing of God's

Presence here to do great things. " Much of what happens depends on

your feelings. If someone says they " feel the power of God so

strongly they had to fall backwards or begin to shake " what can you

say? It's your word against their feeling. It is subjective to the

person alone. If you don't feel anything you are told not to trust

your feelings and reach out to God by faith to receive an

experience.

 

Along with this is a lot of emotionalism. The upbeat, loud, fast-

driving worship choruses and the words spoken by the evangelist

emotionally charges people. It is customary to have frequent

outbursts of applause, jumping up and down to the music and dancing.

There is a lot of excitement. That is often why it is called a

revival. It is said to " bring life to dead churches. " Little

credence is given to quiet solitude, hymns or liturgy. Most of that

is dead dry religion. Feeling, feeling, feeling is the name of the

game.

 

3. Isolationism. The evangelist often speaks against those who would

question this " revival. " If you disagree you are told you

are " coming against God. " There is a form of insulation developed to

lead the people in a direction not to question any of the bizarre

things that might happen. They say " didn't Jesus do strange things?

He spit in mud and placed it on a blind man's eyes. He put His

fingers in the ears of one deaf and dumb and spat on his tongue. Why

should you question some of the strange things going on in

this `revival'? Don't use your mind you can't trust it. Human

reasoning can't figure God out. "

 

All of this sounds Christian but it promotes a " cultic " like

environment. God has a broad base for reaching out to this world.

When you say, " this is God's best way or only way " you are limiting

God to your perspective. God can and does use many worship and

evangelistic methods to reach out to a lost world.

 

It is sad that this Pentecostal " revival " has to alienate the body

of Christ and isolate themselves against other ways of worship and

experiencing God's Spirit. An elitism and exclusiveness is greatly

promoted. There is a heavy intimidation acted out. I heard that a

woman from [our] Church said her husband doesn't want to come

because he feels uncomfortable. She was told it was the devil

working on him and she should pray God would set him free to

experience all God has for him. The attitude " it's my way or the hi-

way " is often promoted.

 

The evangelist Wayne Neal said that those who had left [our] Church,

disgruntled, in the recent past, or those who speak against this

revival and leave, " God will zip your mouth as He did to Zacharias

the father of John the Baptist. "

 

It was also intimidating to have heard the evangelist say " get in on

this move of God now because Jesus is coming back in two months. "

Then he paused briefly and said " or two years. " Obviously he wanted

shock value to get his point across how seriously he believes God

told him He is coming back literally within the next few years.

 

4. Manifestations. Early Pentecostal's were called " snake handlers "

and " chandelier hangers. " Bizarre manifestations have accompanied

Pentecostal churches for decades. Why should there be a surprise

now? At the turn of this 20th Century many Pentecostal movements

were born: The Assemblies of God, The Four Square Church, The

Apostolic Pentecostal Church and others were spawned through

revivals like Azusa Street in Los Angeles. These people were known

as " the church on the other side of the tracks. " Most of the

churches were small. There was not a big emphasis on Biblical

scholarship, Bible colleges or seminaries. It was often said, " for

God to use you all you need is the Holy Ghost and the King James

Bible. "

 

As the movement began to grow in the 50s, 60s and especially the 70s

through the Jesus Movement and the Charismatic Movement Assemblies

of God churches began to take off. There was a great emphasis on

soul winning, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with " speaking in

tongues " , and the " gifts of the Spirit. " Scholarship and critical

thinking began to take place in a deeper way as the Assemblies of

God developed nine colleges and a graduate school of theology. (I am

a product of an Assemblies of God Bible College and the Graduate

school.)

 

Students began to think through more of the hyper-faith teachings on

divine healing, miracles and prosperity. I myself was a polio victim

45 years ago and use a wheel chair. I've had to struggle firsthand

with the doctrine of divine healing. I have come to what I feel is a

balanced faith message. But some in my own denomination would

disagree with me. The same is true with signs and wonders. Every

Assemblies of God church did not have manifestations like " slaying

in the Spirit " or " jerking and shaking in the Spirit. " But

since " Pensacola, " more churches want the success and the numbers

they've attracted.

 

The Assemblies of God called the 1990s the " Decade of Harvest. "

They were hoping to have their greatest growth ever in their

history. Sadly enough there was more decline than growth. Sure it's

exciting to see that hundreds of thousands of people have come to

know Christ at Pensacola. Multitudes have claimed phenomenal

experiences with God.

 

But it is troubling to package it, to copy it and promote it for

every church that " wants God. " It troubles me to see the abuses and

the power of suggestion to manipulate people in to falling over,

shaking, jerking and getting " drunk in the Spirit. " I see no

scriptural precedent or pattern for these happenings.

 

Wayne Neal said he used to think Benny Hinn was strange with

knocking people down with his coat or blowing on individuals

to " slay them in the Spirit. " Until he began to see groups fall over

as he waved his hand.

 

I am convinced that most of what is happening at Pensacola that I

saw and what I have observed firsthand at [our] Church is a by-

product of psychological-conditioning, the power of suggestion and

mass-hysteria. Most of the people are innocently participating and

desperately wanting something visible and tangible from God. Their

lives are hurting and humdrum and in need of a life-changing

experience. They might feel excited and refreshed now but eventually

having to seek an emotional and physical experience continually,

will get old and routine.

 

God's physical touch is offered as a quick fix. Getting into " the

River of the Spirit " or asking God for " His fire to fall " in your

life is said to change you drastically.

 

What used to come from in-depth, intensive Bible study, scripture

memorization and disciplined living can now be achieved from an

experience with God. " Let God knock you over and do spiritual

surgery on you while you are lying on the ground. You'll be changed,

made new, happier and more joyful if you come up to the altar and

receive this experience. Just come forward and drink of this River

and you'll never be the same. " This is the song of the " Pensacola

Revival. " I only wish it were that easy for every Christian.

 

Sure this type of revival will attract crowds. Curious non-Christian

onlookers and seekers will come and give their lives to Jesus.

Church people will pour in. It's exciting to sing fast, loud, peppy

songs. What church wouldn't love to attract large crowds? But the

end does not justify the means. Paul said in Philippians 1:15-

18: " Some preach Christ from selfish ambition...What then? Only that

in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached;

and in this I rejoice... "

 

I am glad souls are getting saved and saints are getting excited.

But I feel we must remain true to Scriptural means and methods in

doing the Lord's work. Even if that means bells and whistles don't

sound with the thrills of a rock concert and the entertainment of a

three-ring circus.

 

I have felt it necessary to resign my pastoral position at [our]

Church. I see this " revival " in a different way than the others. I

really feel very uncomfortable around the atmosphere caused by

people falling over backwards, shaking, jerking, jumping up and

down, and other manifestations.

 

I love to teach and preach God's Word. In fact it's my personal

opinion that a greater, longer-lasting change, comes more from sound

Scriptural, stirring, solid Bible preaching and teaching, than

supposed physical manifestations.

 

I only hope and pray there is still room in the Assemblies of God

for me and others like me. Only time will tell. I had to leave a

church I pastored for ten years because of the hyper-faith

controversy. Many in the church thought I should be healed from my

disability. It became such a big issue I felt it best to resign.

When you have a severe physical deformity that causes daily pain and

frustration, it makes it very difficult to be in a place where

miracles and God's power to heal are constantly promoted. Being only

human, there are deep hurts of frustration at the place of feeling

terrible, that you've done all you think you can to get a miracle

and still nothing happens.

 

You can come to a place of resolve and accept God's sovereign will,

then only to be told " it is God's will you be healed if you have

enough faith, " or " get in on the real move of God, if you want a

miracle. " etc.... A disabled person can only take so much.

 

Now at [our] Church I am so uncomfortable, because of the " revival

controversy, " I must resign. Thank God the body of Christ is bigger

than one denomination or Christian way of doing things. I pray the

Lord will open a door of ministry for me to share my spiritual gifts.

 

Sincerely, In Christ,

 

Rev. KD

 

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/scriptur.htm

[Guest guest]

Dear Jagbir,

 

I definitely agree that the best way to approach the Bible, is to check to see

what Jesus actually said and taught and the Spirit in which He said things. I

have a " New American Standard " Bible, which has all of Jesus's sayings in RED. I

find it very helpful to be able at a glance to know if something is Jesus's

Words or not. Jesus's Disciple's writings seem to be in line with Jesus's

Ministry, Spirit and Teachings, but I am not so sure about the (Apostle) Paul.

 

Jesus was not a dominating personality like Paul. Jesus was not judgmental like

Paul. Jesus did not make rules and regulations for people like Paul did. Jesus

did not seem to dislike women, the way Paul did, who basically blames women for

the " Original Sin " of mankind. Instead, Jesus loved and cared for people, to

such an extent that he even went against Jewish Religious Protocol and spoke to

a Samaritan woman at a well in Samaria, offering to give her " The Living Water " ,

which we know is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

Anyone who really studies it, will find that (Apostle) Paul's spirit, teachings

and philosophy is actually very different in many ways to Jesus's Spirit,

teachings and philosophy. (Apostle) Paul has actually created what is now known

as 'Pauline Christianity', because it is so different to what Jesus taught.

 

Shri Mataji has warned us about the Role of the (Apostle) Paul in Christianity:

 

Words of Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi: -

 

" I cannot understand how can you religiously understand a poetry, and in the

poetry, whatever is written, how can you interpret it correctly? This is the

reason why I, I am a poet also, I could have written a poetry about it, but I

said no.

 

Poetry can twist, can be twisted, and also people can misuse it. That's the

problem with the poetry is. In India we had the same problem. For example,

Kabira wrote such beautiful poetry and the way they interpreted was so

nonsensical and so much different from the spirit of Kabira's songs. About

everything they can twist the words according to their own need, I found out. If

I wrote poetry about divinity, it's exactly what has happened in all the

religions I see. When it comes to poetry, people can twist it.

 

Also like in Bible. It was so much accepted that Paul is the one who is going to

organize the publication about Christ. And he didn't want to write also about

resurrection. He didn't want to write about the Immaculate Conception. All these

things were in his mind, and so Thomas had to run away to India and John refused

to write anything.

 

Because all such people take charge. They become in charge. They think they are

responsible for this. While they are not at all capable, they don't have the

right to do this. As a result of that, Christianity took a very wrong attitude

towards the inner growth of human beings.

 

It's a - you see the result of that. Today when you see what's happening with

the Catholic Church, you are amazed how can such an organization be a religious

organization, where all kinds of nonsensical things are going on.

 

I was also born in a Christian family and I was shocked the way they interpreted

Christ's life and the way it talked about it with great authority. Books and

books were written. They give big, big sermons and though there is no truth in

what they talk. Even my father said the same way. Because all these books came

much after the authors of these books.

 

Secondly, those who tried to write it were not authorized to do that. They were

not spiritual people. They all wanted to have power. They wanted to have power

in religion. The power in religion is inside, and that should be awakened. I

must say, thanks to the Sufis of this country and other countries that people

still think that there is something beyond these words and talks and books. This

is something, such a blessing that we have, that in every country we had someone

who talked about reality, about the truth. Though they were condemned, they were

tortured and so many of them were killed. This is happening even today. I find

that people don't want to listen to reality, to the truth " .

 

(Easter Puja - 23 April, 2000)

 

Shri Mataji is not the only one saying this. Here is a URL, which gives some

more information on the (Apostle) Paul:

 

(/message/4449)

 

 

Jagbir, you also wrote:

 

Q. /Violet, i remember you writing something about the left and right

sympathetic channels that cause such a phenomena. Are the Pentecostals and false

gurus using the same methods 'to slay in spirit'?

 

A. /Jagbir, the methods really are no different. " Slaying in the spirit " as the

Pentecostals call it, is exactly the same thing that Rajneesh did. The only

difference is the `outer packaging'. I would say that the experience itself is

pretty much the same. The Minister puts his hand on the person's head, and they

faint or blank out, etc. That is what " slaying in the spirit " means in

'pentecostalism'. Of course, there are many other `phenomena' in Pentecostalism,

which are very unseemly and not at all dignified, not at all Christ-like.

 

I do not think the (Apostle) Paul ever had the Real Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

He was not even there on the Day of Pentecost, so how could he have got it? No

mention is ever made by Paul, of a Cool Breeze or Wind of the Holy Spirit. This

is what happened to (Apostle) Paul:

 

" Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord,

went to the high priest, and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at

Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he

might bring them bound to Jerusalem. And it came about that as he journeyed, he

was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him ;

and he fell to the ground " . (Acts 9:1-4).

 

" Saul " which was (Apostle) Paul's name, before he became Paul, according to Shri

Mataji, experienced an epileptic fit. This 'light' and the 'falling to the

ground' is indicative of an epileptic fit.

 

Paul also admitted later that he spoke more in " tongues " (gibberish)more than

anyone else. This has to be the sign of an imbalanced personality. People do not

do such a thing, normally.

 

So where did (Apostle) Paul get his 'strange' powers? Shri Mataji has said that

Paul did not have the power of the Holy Spirit, but a 'different' power. You

can tell from (Apostle) Paul's personality swings that he was swinging back and

forth from depression to elation. The power of the Holy Spirit does not come

from the Left and Right Channels of the Human Subtle System, but it comes from

being balanced between these two channels, so that a person dwells in the

Central Channel of the Human Subtle System, which flows from the Throne of God.

This implies complete balance. All traits exhibited by Apostle Paul of

`pentecostalism' is an imbalance.

 

Ancient Hindu Cosmology teaches that there is a Subtle System within human

beings, closely allied to the psychosomatic system within human beings.

 

Through this psychosomatic system, a person can either experience 'heaven' or

`hell'. Also, through this system, a person can literally dwell in their `past',

`present', or `future'. This is inbuilt within human beings.

 

This subtle system (psychosomatic system) has energy channels through which

energy correspondingly flows through the left and right sympathetic nervous

systems, and also the central nervous system. The idea is to be balanced between

the left and the right, so that a person is psychosomatically located on the

central channel. When a person is thus centred, he is in the `present' and

because he is in the present, instead of dwelling (in his consciousness) in the

past or the future, he can use his power to achieve what he has to achieve in

life, such as spiritual goals, for example.

 

Just quickly…… the Central Channel, which corresponds to the Parasympathetic

Nervous System, is called the Sushumna Nadi. (Hindu Cosmology of Human Subtle

System).

 

The Left Channel, which runs along the Left Sympathetic Nervous System, is

called the Ida Nadi.

 

And….. The Right Channel, which runs along the Right Sympathetic Nervous System,

is called the Pingala Nadi.

 

Keeping that information in mind, I want Christians to know that the Human

Subtle System as known and understood by the Hindus, was revealed to John in a

Revelation and this is recorded in the Book of Revelations in the Bible:

 

" The River and the Tree of Life " (New American Standard Bible)

(Revelations 22:1-5)

 

1. " And he showed me a River of the Water of Life, clear as crystal, coming from

the throne of God and the Lamb, in the middle of its street. "

 

1. In Hindu Cosmology:

 

River of the Water of Life = Kundalini

Throne of God and the Lamb = Sahasrara Centre

The Middle of its street = Sushumna Nadi

 

2. " And on either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds

of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for

the healing of the nations. "

 

2. In Hindu Cosmology:

 

Tree of Life = Human Subtle System (a.k.a. psychosomatic system)

Either side of the river = refers to the left channel of `ida nadi' and the

right channel of `pingala nadi'

Twelve kinds of fruit – refers to the spiritual qualities of the chakras

(spiritual centres)

Leaves of the tree = The Many Petals of the Thousand-Petalled Lotus and refers

to the Sahasrara

 

3. " And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and the Lamb

shall be in it, and His bond-servants shall serve Him; and they shall see His

face, and His name shall be on their foreheads "

 

3. In Hindu Cosmology:

 

No Curse = Dissolution of Karma

Throne of God and the Lamb = Sahasrara Centre

Bond-servants = `Self-realized' persons (who are bonded to the Divine)

Forehead = Agnya Centre where Jesus the Christ resides

 

4. " And there shall no longer be any night; and they shall not have need of the

light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God shall illumine

them; and they shall reign forever and ever. "

 

In Hindu Cosmology:

 

No Need of a Light = `Spiritual En-lighten-ment

 

It is known in Sahaja Yoga, that if the kundalini needs to rise before the

person will receive their Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The kundalini energy is

the Holy Spirit energy that rises up the Central Channel (called the middle

street that flows out of the Throne of God).

 

It is also possible for a person's consciousness to dwell on either side of the

river. According to Shri Mataji's teachings, if a person dwells either on the

left or right side of this river, they can become involved in the Collective

Subconscious of the left side of the river, or the Supra-consciousness of the

right side of this river. She also states that to dwell here is a danger to

human beings, and not the place where they will evolve spiritually. The place

where they will evolve spiritually is in the Middle Street that flows out of the

Throne of God Himself. Shri Mataji also states that this is the case. She states

that the Central Channel of the Sushumna Nadi is where human beings can evolve

spiritually.

 

The `Pentecostal' Manifestations originate out of the Collective

Supra-Conscious. This means that the Ministers who place their hands on people's

heads have extra-human powers, which in the Hindu Cosmology are referred to as

`siddhis'. They are actually displacing the recipient's Conscious Mind and

putting something else in there, which results in unusual phenomena. This is

very dangerous for the psychosomatic system and results in strange behaviour.

 

Shri Mataji is blunt on this point and actually states that these Ministers are

putting wrong spirits into people, which cause them to act very strangely

indeed; not like a normal person would. These people then become `possessed' by

that. Jagbir, it is no different to what Rajneesh does. As said before, it is

just different 'packaging'.

 

Violet

 

 

, " jagbir singh "

<adishakti_org> wrote:

>

> Dear Violet,

>

> i could not really grasp the peculiar unlike-Jesus meanings of 1

> Corinthians till you mentioned:

>

> " Jagbir, you can see from Verse 18, that the (Apostle) Paul must

> have been a `Pentecostal', because he says that he " speaks in

> tongues " . Perhaps (Apostle) Paul was over-the-top, encouraging

> Christians to 'try to prophesy', 'try to heal', all these things.

i

> mean, i think a lot of this must have been in the form of

left/right

> channel 'siddhis'. i am beginning to think (Apostle) Paul was

> maybe a bit 'unbalanced' and 'fanatical', because you don't go

> around saying to people " Try to heal " , " Try to prophesy " , do you?!

> However, my theory is, that because it was Peter and Paul who were

> the basis of the continuing Official Church, that they included

all

> of Paul's idiosyncrasies in the Bible, which today are embraced

and

> perpetuated by the so-called 'Pentecostals'. "

>

> You see Violet i have always persisted in the " What did Jesus

Say? "

> approach to the Bible. There are just too many authors in a book

> that was compiled 400 years later. FOUR HUNDRED YEARS! With that

in

> mind, and with the Church editing it prior to final compilation,

you

> just do not know if what you are reading is in accordance to

Jesus'

> teachings. i have never been comfortable with the Bible and always

> seek the words spoken by Jesus. Shri Mataji's warning only

> reinforced that:

>

> " After Lord Jesus Christ the ordinary people started following the

> religion started by Paul, and then everything started going wrong.

> In this way, in every religion things went wrong because religion

> became difficult and inaccessible. " (Shri Mataji)

>

> " Also, Christianity spread under the wrong banner of Paul and

> Augustine. And that's how we see the Christianity, so much so that

> we are shocked how can Christianity of Christ be like this. And

this

> Christianity that has come has nothing to do with Christ. And He

has

> said that, " You'll be calling Me `Christ, Christ' and I won't

> recognise you. " " (Shri Mataji)

>

>

> Corinthians fits that warning perfectly. And we have more about

Paul

> who profoundly influenced Christianity.

>

> " The term original sin is not found in the Bible. Theologians who

> advocate the doctrine of original sin argue, however, that it is

> strongly implied by Paul (see Romans 7), by John (see 1 John

5:19),

> and even by Jesus himself (see Luke 11:13.) Behind this New

> Testament teaching lies the world view of late Jewish apocalyptic

> writings. Some of these writings attribute the corrupt state of

the

> world to a prehistoric fall of Satan, the subsequent temptation of

> Adam and Eve, and the immersion of human history thereafter in

> disorder, disobedience, and pain. "

>

> Microsoft Encarta 96 Encyclopedia

>

>

> " At Romans 5:12-18 Paul himself tells his Roman Christians how

> through one man, Adam, sin 'entered into the world' and by the sin

> of one man death reigned too. These famous verses have inspired

> whole theories of sin and original sin which have changed many

> Christians' perspective on human nature. It seems clear that the

> Fall of Adam and Eve was just not the moral tale of a single

> couple's after: the story was meant to be the origin of a change

for

> all subsequent humans. It is not, however, stated that what

> originated was sin or sinfulness, words which occur nowhere in the

> Hebrew text. It was St. Augustine who ended by arguing that

original

> sin had been transmitted to each of us through Adam, a view which

he

> backed up by Paul's language in Romans 5. However, he followed a

> mistranslation of it, based only on a Latin version of the text.

> Paul's Greek had merely said that 'death passed upon all men,

> because [in that] all sinned'; Augustine followed an author who

> mistook it to say 'death passed upon all men because of Adam, [in

> whom] all sinned . . .' Original sin was read unnecessarily into

> Genesis and was then forced on to Paul by a wrong translation of

his

> writings. In Genesis, nothing prevents us from thinking that Adam

> and Eve from the start of their lives had been expected to make

> love, reproduce and eventually die.

>

> The message of the New Testament Christians, 'We preach Christ

> crucified,' is only rendered slightly more complicated by today's

> Evangelicals: 'You are a sinner bound for hell. . . . why are we

> sinners? Is it actually possible for a human being not to be a

> sinner? No, because 'All have sinned, and come short of the glory

of

> God' (Romans 3:23.) So is this our fault, because of free will, or

> God's, for creating us that way? "

>

> Robin Lane Fox, The Unauthorized Version: Truth and fiction in the

> Bible, Penguin Books Ltd, 1991, p. 24.

>

> (Robin Lane Fox, a fellow of New College, Oxford and a University

> Reader in Ancient History, has written The Unauthorized Version:

> Truth and fiction in the Bible which is a " tour de force in a vast

> landscape; it leaves us with a clearer view of many of the high

> points, from the Creation to the Nativity and the narratives of

> Jesus' trial. Vigorously written, it is a challenge to anyone

whose

> memories of the Bible are haphazard or who takes a simple view

> of 'what the Bible says. " )

>

>

> " If God knows everything, he already knows (in fact, he knew

before

> he created Adam) who will be saved and who will be damned. But is

> this foreknowledge or predestination? Are we condemned because of

> Adam's sin or our own? Does 'original sin' mean that because birth

> results from sexual intercourse, the parents' sinfulness passes

into

> the baby, and does that mean sex is sinful?

>

> Similar questions can be asked — and discussed endlessly — about

> every single term in Christian theology.

>

> Jesus' teachings is in complete contrast to this. He never spoke

of

> original sin; everything he said ran counter to the notion of a

> collective guilt that would fall on generation after generation.

He

> never talked of the expiation of sins beings the condition of

entry

> into the new society, into the Kingdom. On the contrary, one's

very

> entry into the Kingdom means that one's sins have been washed

away —

> which does not mean that this Kingdom is one where anything goes,

> for as we have seen the rules of the new society are truly

> demanding . . . Jesus never claimed that he had to die to 'atone

> for' humanity's sins. This would mean that a God who demanded,

> through His son, that one should forgive 'seventy-seven times

> seven' — that is, always — would Himself be unable to do as

> much . . .

>

> In fact, Jesus called people to joy and a renewal of the Covenant

> between God and men. There are many calls to joy in the

> gospels: 'The Kingdom of Heaven may be compared to a king who gave

a

> feast for his son's wedding;' You will eat and drink at my table

in

> my kingdom;' 'Rejoice with me . . . I have found my sheep that was

> lost;' 'The Kingdom of Heaven is like treasure in a field which

> someone has found; he hides it again, goes off happy, sells

> everything he owns and buys the field' — and so on. "

>

> Jacques Duquesne, Jesus: An Unconventional Biography,

> Triump Books, 1997 p. 155-56.

>

>

> But what truly stumps me is the way the church ministers infuse

the

> believers with the 'holy spirit' which is similar to what Osho,

> Muktananda and other false gurus administer their devotees by

> shaktipat (touch):

>

> " A bolt of electricity passing through his body. Passing from one

> person to the next, moving around the circle, coming back to him.

> The group began shaking violently. It was as if they were all

> possessed, taken over by a powerful impersonal energy. "

>

> Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, " Dance Your Way To God " pg. 148

>

>

> " Suddenly her body was shaking, she was screaming. Somendra was

> moving around her - touching her on the back of her neck, on the

> chest, on the belly. As he'd touch her, his hands vibrating with

> energy, the part of her body where he touched her would begin

> shaking more violently. Shaking, screaming, crying - she became a

> dynamo of energy...she was on fire, from the opposite corner they

> could feel her energy. "

>

> Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, " Dance Your Way To God " pg. 149

>

>

> Violet, i remember you writing something about left and right

> sympathetic channels that cause such a phenomena. Are the

> Pentecostals and false gurus using the same methods 'to slay in

> spirit'? i will wait for the answers before proceeding further.

And

> please do not think i want cut and paste answers. You should

always

> answer collectively, not individually.

>

> love and season's greetings,

>

>

> jagbir

>

>

>

> , " Violet "

<vtubb@b...>

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Jagbir,

> >

> > The so-called Baptism of the Holy Spirit in Pentecostalism is

done

> through what is called as the `laying on of hands'. It is done as

> part of the Church Service when the Minister uses his right hand

and

> places it on the head of the recipient, and declares/prays over

the

> recipient by saying something like: `In the name of the Father,

the

> Son, and the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost be now received!'

> >

> > Then the Holy Ghost `transmission' is passed on from the

Minister

> to the recipient in what is felt like a hot radiating heat that

> leaves the right hand of the Minister's hand and it goes into the

> Sahasrara (head) of the recipient. People like the experience. It

> gives them a real `high' (siddhi).

> >

> > I once asked a Pentecostal `Church of God' Minister where he got

> this power to give the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. He told me he

was

> initiated into it from another Minister who already had it.

> >

> > The teaching in the Pentecostal Church is that once a person

> receives this Baptism of the Holy Spirit, they can then expect to

> see the Gifts of the Holy Spirit operative in their lives, as

> described in the 12th Chapter of I Corinthians, where these Gifts

of

> the Spirit are described. This Chapter is the MAIN TENET of all

> Christian 'Pentecostal' Style Religions.

> >

> > Here it is:

> >

> > " The Use of Spiritual Gifts " (New American Standard Bible)

> > Author: (Apostle) Paul....

> >

> > 1. " Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you

to

> be unaware.

> >

> > 2. You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to

the

> dumb idols, however you were led.

> >

> > 3. Therefore I make known to you, that no one speaking by the

> Spirit of God says, " Jesus is accursed " ; and no one can say " Jesus

> is Lord, " except by the Holy Spirit.

> >

> > 4. Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.

> >

> > 5. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.

> >

> > 6. And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who

works

> all things in all persons.

> >

> > 7. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for

> the common good.

> >

> > 8. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit,

and

> to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit.

> >

> > 9. To another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of

> healing by the one Spirit.

> >

> > 10. And to another the effecting of miracles, and to another

> prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another

> various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of

> tongues.

> >

> > 11. But one and the same Spirit works all these things,

> distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

> >

> > 12. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and

all

> the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so

also

> is Christ.

> >

> > 13. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body,

whether

> Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to

> drink of one Spirit.

> >

> > 14. For the body is not one member, but many.

> >

> > 15. If the foot should say, " Because I am not the hand, I am not

a

> part of the body, " it is not for this reason any the less a part

of

> the body.

> >

> > 16. And if the ear should say, " Because I am not an eye, I am

not

> a part of the body, " it is not for this reason any the less a part

> of the body.

> >

> > 17. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be?

If

> the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?

> >

> > 18. But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the

> body, just as He desired.

> >

> > 19. And if they were all one member, where would the body be?

> >

> > 20. But now there are many members, but one body.

> >

> > 21. And the eye cannot say to the hand, " I have no need of you " ,

> or again the head to the feet, " I have no need of you. "

> >

> > 22. On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the

> body, which seem to be weaker, are necessary;

> >

> > 23. And those members of the body, which we deem less honorable,

> on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our unseemly members

> come to have more abundant seemliness,

> >

> > 24. Whereas our seemly members have no need of it. But God has

so

> composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which

> lacked,

> >

> > 25. That there should be no division in the body, but that the

> members should have the same care for one another.

> >

> > 26. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it;

if

> one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

> >

> > 27. Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it,

> >

> > 28. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second

> (ly) prophets, third(ly) teachers, then miracles, then gifts of

> healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

> >

> > 29. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are

> they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of

> miracles, are they?

> >

> > 30. All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak

> with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

> >

> > 31. But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a

still

> more excellent way. " (1 Corinthians 12:1-31)

> >

> > Jagbir, Verse 31 leads you to where the non-Pentecostal

Mainstream

> Traditional Christian Churches base their views. They generally

> disregard the 12th Chapter with the Gifts of the Spirit, and opt

to

> go with the 13th Chapter, which stresses the more excellent way of

> love.

> >

> > Here it is:

> >

> > " The Excellence of Love " (New American Standard Bible)

> >

> > 1. " If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not

> have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

> >

> > 2. And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries

and

> all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains,

> but do not have love, I am nothing.

> >

> > 3. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I

> deliver my body to be burned (suicide bombers?!), but do not have

> love, it profits me nothing.

> >

> > 4. Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does

> not brag and is not arrogant.

> >

> > 5. Does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not

> provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,

> >

> > 6. Does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the

> truth,

> >

> > 7. Bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things,

> endures all things.

> >

> > 8. Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they

will

> be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is

> knowledge, it will be done away.

> >

> > 9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;

> >

> > 10. But when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

> >

> > 11. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a

> child, reason as a child; when I became a man; I did away with

> childish things.

> >

> > 12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now

I

> know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been

> fully known.

> >

> > But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest

of

> these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:1-13)

> >

> > Jagbir, between Chapter 12 (Pentecostal Stance) and Chapter 13

> (Traditional Christian Stance), you have the basic differences

> between `Pentecostals' and other `traditional Christian

believers'.

> >

> > However, the next chapter, Chapter 14 is what makes Pentecostals

> believe that their view is correct as against the view of the

> traditional Christian believers' views, who basically totally

> disregard Chapter 12. That is why `Pentecostal Christian' feel

> spiritually/morally superior to the traditional Christian beliefs,

> because `Pentecostals' do not believe that the traditional

Christian

> beliefs are the " Full Gospel " , because they ignore the " Spiritual

> Gifts " as espoused in Chapter 12.

> >

> > Anyway, here is Chapter 14:

> >

> > " Prophecy is a Superior Gift " (New American Standard Bible)

> > Author: (Apostle) Paul....

> >

> > 1. Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but

> especially that you may prophesy.

> >

> > 2. For one who speaks in a tongue ( " glossolalia " ) does not speak

> to men, but, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit

> he speaks mysteries.

> >

> > 3. But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and

> exhortation and consolation.

> >

> > 4. One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who

> prophesies edifies the church.

> >

> > 5. Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that

> you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who

> speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may

> receive edifying.

> >

> > 6. But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what

> shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either by way of

> revelation or knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?

> >

> > 7. Yet even lifeless things, either flute or harp, in producing

a

> sound, if they do not produce a distinction in the tones, how will

> it be known what is played on the flute or on the harp?

> >

> > 8. For if the bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will

prepare

> himself for battle?

> >

> > 9. So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is

> clear, how will it be known what is spoken? (Referring to

> `gibberish' here, a.k.a. `glossolalia') For you will be speaking

> into the air.

> >

> > 10. There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the

> world, and no kind is without meaning.

> >

> > 11. If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall

be

> to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be

a

> barbarian to me.

> >

> > 12. So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek

to

> abound for the edification of the church.

> >

> > 13. Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may

> interpret.

> >

> > 14. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is

> unfruitful.

> >

> > 15. What is the outcome then? I shall pray with the spirit and I

> shall pray with the mind also; I shall sing with the spirit and I

> shall sing with the mind also.

> >

> > 16. Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one

> who fills the place of the ungifted say the " Amen " at your giving

of

> thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?

> >

> > 17. For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other man is

> not edified.

> >

> > 18. I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;

> >

> > 19. however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my

> mind, that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand

> words in a tongue. (1 Corinthians 14:1-19)

> >

> > Jagbir, you can see from Verse 18, that the (Apostle) Paul must

> have been a `Pentecostal', because he says that he " speaks in

> tongues " . Perhaps (Apostle) Paul was over-the-top, encouraging

> Christians to 'try to prophecy', 'try to heal', all these things.

i

> mean, i think a lot of this must have been in the form of

left/righ

> channel 'siddhis'. i am beginning to think (Apostle) Paul was

maybe

> a bit 'unbalanced' and 'fanatical', because you don't go around

> saying to people " Try to heal " , " Try to prophesy " , do you?!

However,

> my theory is, that because it was Peter and Paul who were the

basis

> of the continuing Official Church, that they included all of

Paul's

> idiosyncracies in the Bible, which today are embraced and

> perpetuated by the so-called 'Pentecostals'.

> >

> > It also seems that because of the increasing popularity of

> the 'Pentecostal Movement', that more 'traditional' Christian

> Churches are also including more elements of the so-called " Full

> Gospel " of the Pentecostals such as the Gift of Healing, for

> example, but excluding less acceptable things like " prophesy "

> or " speaking in tongues " (which is a strange phenomena anyway).

> >

> > Btw, for the Pentecostals, " Speaking in Tongues " .... not the

Cool

> Breeze.... is the Sure Sign of having the Baptism of the Holy

> Spirit.

> >

> > In all of these Christian Churches (non-Pentecostal and

> Pentecostal alike), there is no Cool Breeze of the Holy Spirit.

They

> all believe that the Cool Wind of the Holy Spirit was a 'once off'

> Dispensation experienced only by the Disciples of Jesus on the Day

> of Pentecost.

> >

> > Jagbir, I know that this is not the `edit' and `paste' style you

> requested, however, as you can see it is a fairly 'deep' topic

that

> required more input than a brief Q and A style.

> >

> > Love and best wishes,

> >

> > Violet

> >

> > , " jagbir singh "

> > <adishakti_org> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Violet,

> > >

> > > You told me that " Christians still do not know that they are

> > > supposed to look for a Cool Breeze, because the Pentecostals

> don't teach that. The Pentecostals teach about the Gifts of the

> Spirit. "

> > >

> > > If you do not mind, can you elaborate/edit the same points and

> > post it on the forum? i think this is a major topic that needs

> public discussion so that its manifestation and implications can

be

> > > compared viz a viz mainstream Christianity. The self-

> verification of Cool Breeze experienced by those who get their

> Second Birth from the Spirit within themselves is the force de

> rigeur of Sahaja Yoga.

> > >

> > > The Pentecostal churches do not teach about the Cool Breeze

> > because their pastors have absolute no power to give Second

Birth.

> i have read a number of disturbing articles. One of them reads:

> > >

> > > " 50 Videos that document Pentecostal Manifestation Heresy!

> > >

> > > 1. See famous Pentecostal preachers practice mass hypnotic

> > > induction, holy Laughter, slain in the spirit, animal sounds,

> > > spiritual amnesia, spiritual muteness, spiritual drunkenness,

> > > spontaneous movements, see someone do " the dead chicken " on

the

> > > floor and another while standing up! Hear the " redhead moo "

and

> > the preacher crow like a rooster. See the " left leg anointing "

and

> > > the " head wagging " prophetesses. Learn about the pain you feel

> > when you're slain! Hear misquotes of the Bible within a

prophecy!

> Hear Bible reading openly mocked!

> > >

> > > See and hear Pentecostals and their Pastors worship in chaos

and

> > > misbehave in church services in ways that other church goers

> > > discipline their children for, and blame it on the Holy Spirit!

> > >

> > > http://www.bible.ca/tongues-audio-video-documentation.htm

> > >

> > >

> > > 2. Manifestations in non-Christian occult and satanic

religions

> > are identical to many modern Pentecostal churches.

> > >

> > > Gurus, Hypnotists and Pentecostals: Can you tell the

difference?

> > >

> > >

> > > 3. Most manifestations in modern Pentecostal churches and

> revival meetings are not found in the Bible.

> > > Bible Miracles and Modern day impostors!

> > > Bible Tongue Speaking and Modern Impostors!

> > > The 9 Spiritual Gifts of Bible defined

> > > What is the Gift Of Tongues?

> > > Slain in the Spirit is unbiblical and occult!

> > > Former Pentecostal Pastor of 18 years converts to the

> truth! " For me it was a conflict with the Bible, and I knew

nothing

> supernatural was happening! "

> > > Pentecostals view non-Charismatics as dead and lifeless

churches!

> > >

> > >

> > > 4. Detailed theological refutation of 20th century tongues

that

> > > proves tongues ceased sometime around 100 AD.

> > > Detailed Theological research paper:

> > > Part 1: Intro and foundational arguments

> > > Part 2: Exposition of 1 Cor 13:8-13

> > > Part 3: Pentecostal arguments refuted

> > >

> > >

> > > 5. Photo Galleries of fake Pentecostal miracles.

> > > Fake TV Evangelist I.Q. Test

> > >

> > > Photo gallery: Pentecostal Miracle Trinkets

> > >

> > > Occult Fake miracles photo gallery

> > >

> > > TV's Peter Popoff proven to be a fraud

> > >

> > > Why are seriously crippled people (ie. paraplegics) NEVER

healed

> > > although Pentecostal churches are full of them???

> > > Miracle workers who couldn't heal!

> > >

> > >

> > > 6. Pentecostalism looks and feels good, but is it from God???

> > > Encyclopedia of Pentecostal ministries their leaders,

> > organizations and false doctrines EXPOSED!

> > > Moral failures of the highest profile Pentecostal preachers

> > > Many Pentecostals are Anti-doctrine, Anti-

> intellectual " Knowledge is of the devil "

> > > Pentecostalism: Worshipping God with you mind in neutral!

> > > Pentecostalism: Founded by women who usurp their place!

> > > Spiritual Supremacists: Most Pentecostals are spiritual

elitists

> > >

> > >

> > > 7. Would Jesus endorse the Pentecostal church where you

attend?

> > > Why I Left The Pentecostal Church After 18 years, this former

> > > Pentecostal Pastor becomes a simple New Testament Christian

and

> > > continues to preach!

> > > Major errors of Pentecostalism

> > > Most Pentecostals sacrifice the Bible at the alter of their

> > feelings!

> > >

> > >

> > > 8. Nothing truly supernatural ever happens in today's

> Pentecostal churches but there is a lot of emotionalism!

> > >

> > > How about surviving a snake bite??? WE CHOSE THE SNAKE!

> $1,100,000 Challenge for one MIRACLE!

> > > " Miracles have ceased " doesn't mean God is powerless!

> > >

> > >

> > > 9. Encyclopedias and Dictionaries of Pentecostal and Occult

> > > religions

> > > Encyclopedia of Pentecostal history & tongues 150-1901 AD

> > > Encyclopedia of occult terms & lingo Why do all these occult

> > > definitions perfect fit many Pentecostals today???

> > > Dictionary of Hindu, yoga terms & lingo

> > > Encyclopedia of all known Pentecostal ministries

> > >

> > >

> > > 10. History: Pentecostalism is the ancient heresy

of " Montanism "

> > > revived

> > > 150 AD: Montanism: The Ancient roots of Pentecostalism

> > > 150-1901 AD Does history prove Pentecostalism?

> > > 1901-Today " Neo-Montanism " : Modern roots of Pentecostalism

> > >

> > > http://www.bible.ca/tongues.htm

> > >

> > >

> > > The Cool Breeze comes from within and this evidence must be

self-

> > > verified by the seeker to know that he/she is truly born of

the

> > > Spirit. This Divine power lies within the person, a miracle of

> > God's direct action to fulfill His Promise to humanity.

> > >

> > > " The term " miracle " has been subjected to indiscriminate usage

> in our time. Almost anything unusual is incorrectly styled

> > a " miracle " .

> > > God is present and active throughout our universe through

> > > instrumentality of natural laws, but even natural laws are

those

> > of whom God is author. A miracle is an instance of God's direct

> > action, as distinguished from His mediate or indirect action

> through natural laws. For instance, when Jesus fed the 5,000 with

a

> lad's lunch of five loaves and two fishes, this was a miracle. If

> the lad had fed himself with the lunch he had prepared, this would

> have been a perfectly natural event. (Matthew 14:15-21). The

> difference is that the latter would have been in perfect

conformity

> with natural law; the former required utilizing divine power. "

> > >

> > > There are tens of thousands of SYs who experience this Cool

> Breeze daily. Let us not forget the hundreds of thousands of

seekers

> who did feel this Cool Breeze over countless numbers of SY public

> > > programs and health fairs but left because, since they were

> never told the Truth, found it no big deal as they could not

relate

> it to their religious upbringing. Perhaps in future many of these

> > seekers, and Pentecostal churchgoers too, may find out that the

> Wind that the Disciples of Jesus felt on the Day of Pentecost is a

> daily experience for those taking part in the Resurrection and

Last

> > > Judgment.

> > >

> > > with love and season's greetings,

> > >

> > >

> > > jagbir

> > >

> >

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " jagbir singh "

<adishakti_org> wrote:

>

> Dear Violet,

>

> i could not really grasp the perculiar unlike-Jesus meanings of 1

> Corinthians till you metioned:

>

> " Jagbir, you can see from Verse 18, that the (Apostle) Paul must

> have been a `Pentecostal', because he says that he " speaks in

> tongues " . Perhaps (Apostle) Paul was over-the-top, encouraging

> Christians to 'try to prophecy', 'try to heal', all these things.

i

> mean, i think a lot of this must have been in the form of

left/righ

> channel 'siddhis'. i am beginning to think (Apostle) Paul was

> maybe a bit 'unbalanced' and 'fanatical', because you don't go

> around saying to people " Try to heal " , " Try to prophesy " , do you?!

> However, my theory is, that because it was Peter and Paul who were

> the basis of the continuing Official Church, that they included

all

> of Paul's idiosyncracies in the Bible, which today are embraced

and

> perpetuated by the so-called 'Pentecostals'. "

>

> You see Violet i have always persisted in the " What did Jesus

Say? "

> approach to the Bible. There are just too many authors in a book

> that was compiled 400 years later. FOUR HUNDRED YEARS! With that

in

> mind, and with the Church editing it prior to final compilation,

you

> just do not know if what you are reading is in accordance to

Jesus'

> teachings. i have never been comfortable with the Bible and always

> seek the words spoken by Jesus. Shri Mataji's warning only

> reinforced that:

>

> " After Lord Jesus Christ the ordinary people started following the

> religion started by Paul, and then everything started going wrong.

> In this way, in every religion things went wrong because religion

> became difficult and inaccessible. " (Shri Mataji)

>

> " Also, Christianity spread under the wrong banner of Paul and

> Augustine. And that's how we see the Christianity, so much so that

> we are shocked how can Christianity of Christ be like this. And

this

> Christianity that has come has nothing to do with Christ. And He

has

> said that, " You'll be calling Me `Christ, Christ' and I won't

> recognise you. " " (Shri Mataji)

>

>

> Corinthians fits that warning perfectly. And we have more about

Paul

> who profoundly influenced Christianity.

>

> " The term original sin is not found in the Bible. Theologians who

> advocate the doctrine of original sin argue, however, that it is

> strongly implied by Paul (see Romans 7), by John (see 1 John

5:19),

> and even by Jesus himself (see Luke 11:13.) Behind this New

> Testament teaching lies the world view of late Jewish apocalyptic

> writings. Some of these writings attribute the corrupt state of

the

> world to a prehistoric fall of Satan, the subsequent temptation of

> Adam and Eve, and the immersion of human history thereafter in

> disorder, disobedience, and pain. "

>

> Microsoft Encarta 96 Encyclopedia

>

>

> " At Romans 5:12-18 Paul himself tells his Roman Christians how

> through one man, Adam, sin 'entered into the world' and by the sin

> of one man death reigned too. These famous verses have inspired

> whole theories of sin and original sin which have changed many

> Christians' perspective on human nature. It seems clear that the

> Fall of Adam and Eve was just not the moral tale of a single

> couple's after: the story was meant to be the origin of a change

for

> all subsequent humans. It is not, however, stated that what

> originated was sin or sinfulness, words which occur nowhere in the

> Hebrew text. It was St. Augustine who ended by arguing that

original

> sin had been transmitted to each of us through Adam, a view which

he

> backed up by Paul's language in Romans 5. However, he followed a

> mistranslation of it, based only on a Latin version of the text.

> Paul's Greek had merely said that 'death passed upon all men,

> because [in that] all sinned'; Augustine followed an author who

> mistook it to say 'death passed upon all men because of Adam, [in

> whom] all sinned . . .' Original sin was read unnecessarily into

> Genesis and was then forced on to Paul by a wrong translation of

his

> writings. In Genesis, nothing prevents us from thinking that Adam

> and Eve from the start of their lives had been expected to make

> love, reproduce and eventually die.

>

> The message of the New Testament Christians, 'We preach Christ

> crucified,' is only rendered slightly more complicated by today's

> Evangelicals: 'You are a sinner bound for hell. . . . why are we

> sinners? Is it actually possible for a human being not to be a

> sinner? No, because 'All have sinned, and come short of the glory

of

> God' (Romans 3:23.) So is this our fault, because of free will, or

> God's, for creating us that way? "

>

> Robin Lane Fox, The Unauthorized Version: Truth and fiction in the

> Bible, Penguin Books Ltd, 1991, p. 24.

>

> (Robin Lane Fox, a fellow of New College, Oxford and a University

> Reader in Ancient History, has written The Unauthorized Version:

> Truth and fiction in the Bible which is a " tour de force in a vast

> landscape; it leaves us with a clearer view of many of the high

> points, from the Creation to the Nativity and the narratives of

> Jesus' trial. Vigorously written, it is a challenge to anyone

whose

> memories of the Bible are haphazard or who takes a simple view

> of 'what the Bible says. " )

>

>

> " If God knows everything, he already knows (in fact, he knew

before

> he created Adam) who will be saved and who will be damned. But is

> this foreknowledge or predestination? Are we condemned because of

> Adam's sin or our own? Does 'original sin' mean that because birth

> results from sexual intercourse, the parents' sinfulness passes

into

> the baby, and does that mean sex is sinful?

>

> Similar questions can be asked — and discussed endlessly — about

> every single term in Christian theology.

>

> Jesus' teachings is in complete contrast to this. He never spoke

of

> original sin; everything he said ran counter to the notion of a

> collective guilt that would fall on generation after generation.

He

> never talked of the expiation of sins beings the condition of

entry

> into the new society, into the Kingdom. On the contrary, one's

very

> entry into the Kingdom means that one's sins have been washed

away —

> which does not mean that this Kingdom is one where anything goes,

> for as we have seen the rules of the new society are truly

> demanding . . . Jesus never claimed that he had to die to 'atone

> for' humanity's sins. This would mean that a God who demanded,

> through His son, that one should forgive 'seventy-seven times

> seven' — that is, always — would Himself be unable to do as

> much . . .

>

> In fact, Jesus called people to joy and a renewal of the Covenant

> between God and men. There are many calls to joy in the

> gospels: 'The Kingdom of Heaven may be compared to a king who gave

a

> feast for his son's wedding;' You will eat and drink at my table

in

> my kingdom;' 'Rejoice with me . . . I have found my sheep that was

> lost;' 'The Kingdom of Heaven is like treasure in a field which

> someone has found; he hides it again, goes off happy, sells

> everything he owns and buys the field' — and so on. "

>

> Jacques Duquesne, Jesus: An Unconventional Biography,

> Triump Books, 1997 p. 155-56.

>

>

> But what truly stumps me is the way the church ministers infuse

the

> believers with the 'holy spirit' which is similar to what Osho,

> Muktananda and other false gurus administer their devotees by

> shaktipat (touch):

>

> " A bolt of electricity passing through his body. Passing from one

> person to the next, moving around the circle, coming back to him.

> The group began shaking violently. It was as if they were all

> possessed, taken over by a powerful impersonal energy. "

>

> Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, " Dance Your Way To God " pg. 148

>

>

> " Suddenly her body was shaking, she was screaming. Somendra was

> moving around her - touching her on the back of her neck, on the

> chest, on the belly. As he'd touch her, his hands vibrating with

> energy, the part of her body where he touched her would begin

> shaking more violently. Shaking, screaming, crying - she became a

> dynamo of energy...she was on fire, from the opposite corner they

> could feel her energy. "

>

> Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, " Dance Your Way To God " pg. 149

>

>

> Violet, i remember you writing something about left and right

> sympathetic channels that cause such a phenomena. Are the

> Pentecostals and false gurus using the same methods 'to slay in

> spirit'? i will wait for the answers before proceeding further.

And

> please do not think i want cut and paste answers. You should

always

> answer collectively, not individually.

>

> love and season's greetings,

>

>

> jagbir

>

>

>

> , " Violet "

<vtubb@b...>

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Jagbir,

> >

> > The so-called Baptism of the Holy Spirit in Pentecostalism is

done

> through what is called as the `laying on of hands'. It is done as

> part of the Church Service when the Minister uses his right hand

and

> places it on the head of the recipient, and declares/prays over

the

> recipient by saying something like: `In the name of the Father,

the

> Son, and the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost be now received!'

> >

> > Then the Holy Ghost `transmission' is passed on from the

Minister

> to the recipient in what is felt like a hot radiating heat that

> leaves the right hand of the Minister's hand and it goes into the

> Sahasrara (head) of the recipient. People like the experience. It

> gives them a real `high' (siddhi).

> >

> > I once asked a Pentecostal `Church of God' Minister where he got

> this power to give the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. He told me he

was

> initiated into it from another Minister who already had it.

> >

> > The teaching in the Pentecostal Church is that once a person

> receives this Baptism of the Holy Spirit, they can then expect to

> see the Gifts of the Holy Spirit operative in their lives, as

> described in the 12th Chapter of I Corinthians, where these Gifts

of

> the Spirit are described. This Chapter is the MAIN TENET of all

> Christian 'Pentecostal' Style Religions.

> >

> > Here it is:

> >

> > " The Use of Spiritual Gifts " (New American Standard Bible)

> > Author: (Apostle) Paul....

> >

> > 1. " Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you

to

> be unaware.

> >

> > 2. You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to

the

> dumb idols, however you were led.

> >

> > 3. Therefore I make known to you, that no one speaking by the

> Spirit of God says, " Jesus is accursed " ; and no one can say " Jesus

> is Lord, " except by the Holy Spirit.

> >

> > 4. Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.

> >

> > 5. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.

> >

> > 6. And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who

works

> all things in all persons.

> >

> > 7. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for

> the common good.

> >

> > 8. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit,

and

> to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit.

> >

> > 9. To another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of

> healing by the one Spirit.

> >

> > 10. And to another the effecting of miracles, and to another

> prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another

> various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of

> tongues.

> >

> > 11. But one and the same Spirit works all these things,

> distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

> >

> > 12. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and

all

> the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so

also

> is Christ.

> >

> > 13. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body,

whether

> Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to

> drink of one Spirit.

> >

> > 14. For the body is not one member, but many.

> >

> > 15. If the foot should say, " Because I am not the hand, I am not

a

> part of the body, " it is not for this reason any the less a part

of

> the body.

> >

> > 16. And if the ear should say, " Because I am not an eye, I am

not

> a part of the body, " it is not for this reason any the less a part

> of the body.

> >

> > 17. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be?

If

> the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?

> >

> > 18. But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the

> body, just as He desired.

> >

> > 19. And if they were all one member, where would the body be?

> >

> > 20. But now there are many members, but one body.

> >

> > 21. And the eye cannot say to the hand, " I have no need of you " ,

> or again the head to the feet, " I have no need of you. "

> >

> > 22. On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the

> body, which seem to be weaker, are necessary;

> >

> > 23. And those members of the body, which we deem less honorable,

> on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our unseemly members

> come to have more abundant seemliness,

> >

> > 24. Whereas our seemly members have no need of it. But God has

so

> composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which

> lacked,

> >

> > 25. That there should be no division in the body, but that the

> members should have the same care for one another.

> >

> > 26. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it;

if

> one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

> >

> > 27. Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it,

> >

> > 28. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second

> (ly) prophets, third(ly) teachers, then miracles, then gifts of

> healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

> >

> > 29. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are

> they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of

> miracles, are they?

> >

> > 30. All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak

> with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

> >

> > 31. But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a

still

> more excellent way. " (1 Corinthians 12:1-31)

> >

> > Jagbir, Verse 31 leads you to where the non-Pentecostal

Mainstream

> Traditional Christian Churches base their views. They generally

> disregard the 12th Chapter with the Gifts of the Spirit, and opt

to

> go with the 13th Chapter, which stresses the more excellent way of

> love.

> >

> > Here it is:

> >

> > " The Excellence of Love " (New American Standard Bible)

> >

> > 1. " If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not

> have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

> >

> > 2. And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries

and

> all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains,

> but do not have love, I am nothing.

> >

> > 3. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I

> deliver my body to be burned (suicide bombers?!), but do not have

> love, it profits me nothing.

> >

> > 4. Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does

> not brag and is not arrogant.

> >

> > 5. Does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not

> provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,

> >

> > 6. Does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the

> truth,

> >

> > 7. Bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things,

> endures all things.

> >

> > 8. Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they

will

> be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is

> knowledge, it will be done away.

> >

> > 9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;

> >

> > 10. But when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

> >

> > 11. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a

> child, reason as a child; when I became a man; I did away with

> childish things.

> >

> > 12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now

I

> know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been

> fully known.

> >

> > But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest

of

> these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:1-13)

> >

> > Jagbir, between Chapter 12 (Pentecostal Stance) and Chapter 13

> (Traditional Christian Stance), you have the basic differences

> between `Pentecostals' and other `traditional Christian

believers'.

> >

> > However, the next chapter, Chapter 14 is what makes Pentecostals

> believe that their view is correct as against the view of the

> traditional Christian believers' views, who basically totally

> disregard Chapter 12. That is why `Pentecostal Christian' feel

> spiritually/morally superior to the traditional Christian beliefs,

> because `Pentecostals' do not believe that the traditional

Christian

> beliefs are the " Full Gospel " , because they ignore the " Spiritual

> Gifts " as espoused in Chapter 12.

> >

> > Anyway, here is Chapter 14:

> >

> > " Prophecy is a Superior Gift " (New American Standard Bible)

> > Author: (Apostle) Paul....

> >

> > 1. Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but

> especially that you may prophesy.

> >

> > 2. For one who speaks in a tongue ( " glossolalia " ) does not speak

> to men, but, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit

> he speaks mysteries.

> >

> > 3. But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and

> exhortation and consolation.

> >

> > 4. One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who

> prophesies edifies the church.

> >

> > 5. Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that

> you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who

> speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may

> receive edifying.

> >

> > 6. But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what

> shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either by way of

> revelation or knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?

> >

> > 7. Yet even lifeless things, either flute or harp, in producing

a

> sound, if they do not produce a distinction in the tones, how will

> it be known what is played on the flute or on the harp?

> >

> > 8. For if the bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will

prepare

> himself for battle?

> >

> > 9. So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is

> clear, how will it be known what is spoken? (Referring to

> `gibberish' here, a.k.a. `glossolalia') For you will be speaking

> into the air.

> >

> > 10. There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the

> world, and no kind is without meaning.

> >

> > 11. If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall

be

> to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be

a

> barbarian to me.

> >

> > 12. So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek

to

> abound for the edification of the church.

> >

> > 13. Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may

> interpret.

> >

> > 14. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is

> unfruitful.

> >

> > 15. What is the outcome then? I shall pray with the spirit and I

> shall pray with the mind also; I shall sing with the spirit and I

> shall sing with the mind also.

> >

> > 16. Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one

> who fills the place of the ungifted say the " Amen " at your giving

of

> thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?

> >

> > 17. For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other man is

> not edified.

> >

> > 18. I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;

> >

> > 19. however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my

> mind, that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand

> words in a tongue. (1 Corinthians 14:1-19)

> >

> > Jagbir, you can see from Verse 18, that the (Apostle) Paul must

> have been a `Pentecostal', because he says that he " speaks in

> tongues " . Perhaps (Apostle) Paul was over-the-top, encouraging

> Christians to 'try to prophecy', 'try to heal', all these things.

i

> mean, i think a lot of this must have been in the form of

left/righ

> channel 'siddhis'. i am beginning to think (Apostle) Paul was

maybe

> a bit 'unbalanced' and 'fanatical', because you don't go around

> saying to people " Try to heal " , " Try to prophesy " , do you?!

However,

> my theory is, that because it was Peter and Paul who were the

basis

> of the continuing Official Church, that they included all of

Paul's

> idiosyncracies in the Bible, which today are embraced and

> perpetuated by the so-called 'Pentecostals'.

> >

> > It also seems that because of the increasing popularity of

> the 'Pentecostal Movement', that more 'traditional' Christian

> Churches are also including more elements of the so-called " Full

> Gospel " of the Pentecostals such as the Gift of Healing, for

> example, but excluding less acceptable things like " prophesy "

> or " speaking in tongues " (which is a strange phenomena anyway).

> >

> > Btw, for the Pentecostals, " Speaking in Tongues " .... not the

Cool

> Breeze.... is the Sure Sign of having the Baptism of the Holy

> Spirit.

> >

> > In all of these Christian Churches (non-Pentecostal and

> Pentecostal alike), there is no Cool Breeze of the Holy Spirit.

They

> all believe that the Cool Wind of the Holy Spirit was a 'once off'

> Dispensation experienced only by the Disciples of Jesus on the Day

> of Pentecost.

> >

> > Jagbir, I know that this is not the `edit' and `paste' style you

> requested, however, as you can see it is a fairly 'deep' topic

that

> required more input than a brief Q and A style.

> >

> > Love and best wishes,

> >

> > Violet

> >

> > , " jagbir singh "

> > <adishakti_org> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Violet,

> > >

> > > You told me that " Christians still do not know that they are

> > > supposed to look for a Cool Breeze, because the Pentecostals

> don't teach that. The Pentecostals teach about the Gifts of the

> Spirit. "

> > >

> > > If you do not mind, can you elaborate/edit the same points and

> > post it on the forum? i think this is a major topic that needs

> public discussion so that its manifestation and implications can

be

> > > compared viz a viz mainstream Christianity. The self-

> verification of Cool Breeze experienced by those who get their

> Second Birth from the Spirit within themselves is the force de

> rigeur of Sahaja Yoga.

> > >

> > > The Pentecostal churches do not teach about the Cool Breeze

> > because their pastors have absolute no power to give Second

Birth.

> i have read a number of disturbing articles. One of them reads:

> > >

> > > " 50 Videos that document Pentecostal Manifestation Heresy!

> > >

> > > 1. See famous Pentecostal preachers practice mass hypnotic

> > > induction, holy Laughter, slain in the spirit, animal sounds,

> > > spiritual amnesia, spiritual muteness, spiritual drunkenness,

> > > spontaneous movements, see someone do " the dead chicken " on

the

> > > floor and another while standing up! Hear the " redhead moo "

and

> > the preacher crow like a rooster. See the " left leg anointing "

and

> > > the " head wagging " prophetesses. Learn about the pain you feel

> > when you're slain! Hear misquotes of the Bible within a

prophecy!

> Hear Bible reading openly mocked!

> > >

> > > See and hear Pentecostals and their Pastors worship in chaos

and

> > > misbehave in church services in ways that other church goers

> > > discipline their children for, and blame it on the Holy Spirit!

> > >

> > > http://www.bible.ca/tongues-audio-video-documentation.htm

> > >

> > >

> > > 2. Manifestations in non-Christian occult and satanic

religions

> > are identical to many modern Pentecostal churches.

> > >

> > > Gurus, Hypnotists and Pentecostals: Can you tell the

difference?

> > >

> > >

> > > 3. Most manifestations in modern Pentecostal churches and

> revival meetings are not found in the Bible.

> > > Bible Miracles and Modern day impostors!

> > > Bible Tongue Speaking and Modern Impostors!

> > > The 9 Spiritual Gifts of Bible defined

> > > What is the Gift Of Tongues?

> > > Slain in the Spirit is unbiblical and occult!

> > > Former Pentecostal Pastor of 18 years converts to the

> truth! " For me it was a conflict with the Bible, and I knew

nothing

> supernatural was happening! "

> > > Pentecostals view non-Charismatics as dead and lifeless

churches!

> > >

> > >

> > > 4. Detailed theological refutation of 20th century tongues

that

> > > proves tongues ceased sometime around 100 AD.

> > > Detailed Theological research paper:

> > > Part 1: Intro and foundational arguments

> > > Part 2: Exposition of 1 Cor 13:8-13

> > > Part 3: Pentecostal arguments refuted

> > >

> > >

> > > 5. Photo Galleries of fake Pentecostal miracles.

> > > Fake TV Evangelist I.Q. Test

> > >

> > > Photo gallery: Pentecostal Miracle Trinkets

> > >

> > > Occult Fake miracles photo gallery

> > >

> > > TV's Peter Popoff proven to be a fraud

> > >

> > > Why are seriously crippled people (ie. paraplegics) NEVER

healed

> > > although Pentecostal churches are full of them???

> > > Miracle workers who couldn't heal!

> > >

> > >

> > > 6. Pentecostalism looks and feels good, but is it from God???

> > > Encyclopedia of Pentecostal ministries their leaders,

> > organizations and false doctrines EXPOSED!

> > > Moral failures of the highest profile Pentecostal preachers

> > > Many Pentecostals are Anti-doctrine, Anti-

> intellectual " Knowledge is of the devil "

> > > Pentecostalism: Worshipping God with you mind in neutral!

> > > Pentecostalism: Founded by women who usurp their place!

> > > Spiritual Supremacists: Most Pentecostals are spiritual

elitists

> > >

> > >

> > > 7. Would Jesus endorse the Pentecostal church where you

attend?

> > > Why I Left The Pentecostal Church After 18 years, this former

> > > Pentecostal Pastor becomes a simple New Testament Christian

and

> > > continues to preach!

> > > Major errors of Pentecostalism

> > > Most Pentecostals sacrifice the Bible at the alter of their

> > feelings!

> > >

> > >

> > > 8. Nothing truly supernatural ever happens in today's

> Pentecostal churches but there is a lot of emotionalism!

> > >

> > > How about surviving a snake bite??? WE CHOSE THE SNAKE!

> $1,100,000 Challenge for one MIRACLE!

> > > " Miracles have ceased " doesn't mean God is powerless!

> > >

> > >

> > > 9. Encyclopedias and Dictionaries of Pentecostal and Occult

> > > religions

> > > Encyclopedia of Pentecostal history & tongues 150-1901 AD

> > > Encyclopedia of occult terms & lingo Why do all these occult

> > > definitions perfect fit many Pentecostals today???

> > > Dictionary of Hindu, yoga terms & lingo

> > > Encyclopedia of all known Pentecostal ministries

> > >

> > >

> > > 10. History: Pentecostalism is the ancient heresy

of " Montanism "

> > > revived

> > > 150 AD: Montanism: The Ancient roots of Pentecostalism

> > > 150-1901 AD Does history prove Pentecostalism?

> > > 1901-Today " Neo-Montanism " : Modern roots of Pentecostalism

> > >

> > > http://www.bible.ca/tongues.htm

> > >

> > >

> > > The Cool Breeze comes from within and this evidence must be

self-

> > > verified by the seeker to know that he/she is truly born of

the

> > > Spirit. This Divine power lies within the person, a miracle of

> > God's direct action to fulfill His Promise to humanity.

> > >

> > > " The term " miracle " has been subjected to indiscriminate usage

> in our time. Almost anything unusual is incorrectly styled

> > a " miracle " .

> > > God is present and active throughout our universe through

> > > instrumentality of natural laws, but even natural laws are

those

> > of whom God is author. A miracle is an instance of God's direct

> > action, as distinguished from His mediate or indirect action

> through natural laws. For instance, when Jesus fed the 5,000 with

a

> lad's lunch of five loaves and two fishes, this was a miracle. If

> the lad had fed himself with the lunch he had prepared, this would

> have been a perfectly natural event. (Matthew 14:15-21). The

> difference is that the latter would have been in perfect

conformity

> with natural law; the former required utilizing divine power. "

> > >

> > > There are tens of thousands of SYs who experience this Cool

> Breeze daily. Let us not forget the hundreds of thousands of

seekers

> who did feel this Cool Breeze over countless numbers of SY public

> > > programs and health fairs but left because, since they were

> never told the Truth, found it no big deal as they could not

relate

> it to their religious upbringing. Perhaps in future many of these

> > seekers, and Pentecostal churchgoers too, may find out that the

> Wind that the Disciples of Jesus felt on the Day of Pentecost is a

> daily experience for those taking part in the Resurrection and

Last

> > > Judgment.

> > >

> > > with love and season's greetings,

> > >

> > >

> > > jagbir

> > >

> >

>