VANCOUVER COLLECTIVE, OTHERS, PART 2

August 25, 2006

Dear All ( Vancouver Collective and others)

This is part two of the two part email I have been writing with

regards to many things and I will split this " PART TWO " into two

parts, making a total of three separate posts because part two will

no doubt be extremely long.

Id like to begin part two by saying a few words. After that I will

touch on the " nuances " that I left out of the conversation(s) I had

with a yogi regarding the spreading of Sahaja Yoga, which was

thought by this yogi to change the context of his responses, thus

twist what he meant to make him look stupid, and cast him in a bad

light. From there I will just continue with the many other things I

want to share and express to the Vancouver collective and others,

which were spawned from contemplation on another conversation with

the very same yogi I had when I was called by him with regards to

slandering the collective on this forum.

Firstly: (Vancouver collective). Im not sure if people are still

opposed and angry with regards to what I have posted on this forum

(as its been days since this all went down) or if people have read

the " part one " of this two part email, but if anyone is still

angry, then please ask yourself why. Is it because I have said

something which is not the truth, which has not happened and is not

happening currently, or because I have twisted the truth, over

exaggerated the problems within our collective just to cast a bad

light on the collective and side with a man you deem and many in the

organization of SY deem off? Or rather, is it because you feel

betrayed that someone from your own collective, who has eaten with

you, talked with you, laughed with you and enjoyed your company has

decided to air out the dirty laundry, and the innermost workings and

issues of the collective to the public for all to see and hear?

Basically what I mean is, is the real reason you are upset and angry

is because you feel betrayed by me for telling private/personal

collective matters to the public, thus making " our own business "

very public and our problems very apparent; hence embarrassment?

Please introspect and make sure any anger, hurt, or hostile feelings

you may or may not have for me now because of what I have written is

coming from a justified stance, rather then a challenge to the ego

or feelings of betrayal. I say this because everything I have

written over the months on this forum, as I have stated in part one,

are all things I have personally experienced, seen and heard first

hand. I have heard the same from other yogis and yoginis in the

collective, so I know others have seen, heard and experienced the

very same things, though maybe have not said it openly.

We need to be transparent in everything we do, thus making public-

private issues. This is a collective and our personal problems

affect the whole since we are all connected, both in a personal way

and a collective way. If one half of a tree is diseased, then by

keeping quiet and out of sight of the other side of the tree that

does not stop that other side of that tree from falling prey to the

very same disease; does it? In the same way collective problems must

be made public because transparency (even in bad times and

embarrassing situations) is part of what being truthful is all

about. Truth and love is what Sahaja Yoga is about, and how can a

movement of truth and love be successful if the very foundations,

truth and love, are not being practiced even when no one is looking?

With reference to the tree again, if the diseased side can be made

well again, then the other disease free side or side that has yet to

be overrun completely by disease can also be made well, thus saved.

In that way we can lift each other up and out of the clutches of

death and decay, but the process of lifting and escaping

that `death' starts from inside our selves, and inside our own

collective first.

More importantly, outsiders can see quite easily when something is

not quite right, or not entirely out in the open, but rather hidden.

This makes people feel there maybe more then meets the eye to

whatever this person or organization is doing(in a bad way) and will

most defiantly deter people from ever wanting to be a part of Sahaja

Yoga. It will cast a doubtful eye on Shri Mataji and anything she

says, because if they can see the people who are promoting it aren't

living by what they are promoting or catch the `vibes' of whatever

is going awry behind the scenes, they will listen to those `warning'

signs within themselves and shy away from us. In the same way as we

can sense intuitively if something seems a little `fishy', non

realized souls can do the same even with no vibrations.

They may begin to search out SY and Shri Mataji online and at that

point with the seed of doubt and uneasiness already sprouting, any

critical scathing of Sahaja Yoga or " skeptic cult website " , which we

know are false but are out there to discredit ShriMataji, will

immediately kill any lingering hope or doubtlessness, putting the

nail in the coffin for us and that (those) seekers permanently. From

there word of mouth sets in, and we all know word of mouth spreads

like wildfire. That is not going to help us, nor is it going to help

seekers or Shri Mataji, both in us and without us; is it? We will be

defeated before the fight ever began.

And I will say that these collective problems are not problems that

I can point fingers at from the outside and at people and say I'm

all righteous and perfect and superior to you `guys'(the collective)

because I'm not, and I do not think that I am. However, your

problems are my problems and the world's problems, especially if

they subtly influence my behavior in a negative way- by way of SY

conditionings and because we are collective. SO if your suffering

then I'm suffering, weather I'm there or not, and if you heal I

heal. SO if I see something wrong and am aware of the way to correct

that wrong and am aware of information which I want to make you

aware of and to judge for yourself its authenticity, then I will do

that. Why would you fault me for such?

With that I digress. Do not be mad but transparent, and under that

light of day and in front of the eyes which are ever watching for

signs of God at these End times , lets face ourselves and correct

ourselves so we can correct and help others to correct themselves

before its too late. As Shri Mataji has said " When Christ returns

with his 11 forces of destruction, he is not going to be asking

anyone to take realization. He will Just Sort out " . Who do you think

will be responsible for however many people are just sorted out

without every having the knowledge and chance to ascend and escape

eternal destruction by mother's request?? Fear, ignorance, lack of

action, and lack of seeking the answers on one's own due to blind

faith based on others words is not an excuse.

Now I would like to touch on the nuances I have been accused of

leaving out which twisted the words of a particular yogi and the

conversations I had with him where I quoted him as saying " we should

not tell just anyone that Shri Mataji is God because it will scare

them off. " First I will say that all those quotes from my posts

previously on this forum were not from one conversation, but from

many conversations on the topic over months and from e mails,

particularly one , in response to my suggestions that we need to

start telling the truth abut Shri Mataji.

Basically it all started with an email I sent out to two or three

people in my collective (one of which is this yogi) regarding

spreading the truth up front and how the WCASY was corrupting the

original message of SY by way of numerous quotes of messages posted

on this forum and of Shri Mataji to back up that claim. It made the

email quite a lengthy read.

I should say that before and leading up to this I had mentioned

these things in brief with this yogi, and he defiantly seemed

receptive to the idea and even said that he had been thinking that

it is about that time for things to change, and that he had been

thinking of beginning to do that at classes and other places. He did

say however, that although he was told who Shri Mataji was up front

himself and knew what Shri Mataji meant based on understanding the

language(Hindi maybe??), it is not the same for other people and

other people may become scared and that we should ease them into

that knowledge by way of vibrations. Also that he was not sure he

was comfortable with doing that, as it may be too much for some.

That was fine.

Fast forward many months and many conversations which went much like

the one above, maybe with the addition of " if YOU can do that then

do that, spread it your own way " . SO I sent the email to this person

and two others in hopes that because they were in my age range, were

respected by the `elders thus had some sway' and because they

expressed openness to these ideas, that they would be the first ones

to start change and bring this up. The message minus the lengthy

forum quotes can be read on this forum by searching for message

#5660. The email was sent and I only received two out of the three

yogis responses. One said that she read it and that she simply

thinks that each person has their own way of spreading SY. The other

yogi said that he didn't have time or the desire to read such a long

email, and thus never read it. It was also mentioned that he did not

want to have any of the negativity from the posts on this forum

regarding the " attack " against the WCASY in his attention and wanted

to remain clear headed by avoiding any negativity at all.

At that point I didn't really bring it up again, but made sure that

my thoughts on the matter and those conversations were written

about, more so---so I could understand and ask if I was doing

something wrong or perpetuating a wrong idea or something that was

not suppose to be done. Also because I was very discouraged and

could not understand why people did not want to step up to the plate

or even listen to the `claims' I was making.

I didn't mention it to much to anyone at my collective after that

until I was confronted on my supposed slandering of SY on this

forum, where a phone call followed regarding my posts on here. So

these are the supposed nuances I left and perhaps not repeating the

same conversation that happened over many months, that all went the

very same way as the example above. I don't see how that changes the

context of his responses to the effect of not telling who Shri

Mataji is upfront , or that she is God, which he said, because it

would scare people off if they have not found that out through

vibrations first, which would help them understand it on a deeper

level. Going about it this way was explained to me as a we of

softening the blow or possibly outcry of such a supposed

preposterous claim.

So I will just go from here and touch on the rest of the points and

questions/statements that were made in that recent phone call to me

that I feel I need to express to understand the truths or untruths

of them better and to simply talk of my collective experiences.

Excuse me if the rest of this email is not a structured or coherent

as the other parts.

I don't know where this idea that we are not supposed to tell the

truth about who Shri Mataji is upfront came from. It doesn't make

sense, especially after she has asked us to do and to prove that she

is that---the Holy Spirit sent in the fathers name to give testament

and remembrance to all Jesus taught and could not teach, and to

comfort us/give us our second birth in the times before the end. The

line that is always slung around is that Shri Mataji said to just

give realization and let the vibrations work out that realization

that she is the Holy Spirit. Another line that seems to follow is

that Shri Mataji herself said that she doesn't want to be crucified

for saying she is God on earth, so that is the guideline that is

followed when spreading SY.

First of all Shri Mataji never said she was God. What Shri Mataji

did say is that she is the Adi Shakti ( the Holy Spirit), not GOD,

of which in the Sahastrara there is not a difference between her and

him. Second of all, Shri Mataji did say that she does not tell who

she is outright because she does not want to get crucified, but she

did not say that we should not tell people outright who she is

because she does not. Rather the exact opposite was said by her and

I quote:

" I am the Adi Shakti. I am the One who has come on this Earth for

the first time in this form to do this tremendous task . The more you understand

this the better it would be. You will change tremendously. I knew I'll have to

say that openly one day and we have said it. But now it is you people who have

to prove it that I am that! "

Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi

Sydney, Australia — March 21, 1983 "

It is clearly seen that although she does not claim it outright

herself for legitimate reasons, she has said it to us yogis and

yoginis anyways so we understand, and that WE are the ones to prove

that she is that. She does not have to prove that she is that, but

we do. Even though, she herself has said at meetings and has said it

on a Tv interview from the 80s, which I watched at a meeting at the

local Guildford library in Surrey BC Canada. So to claim that we

shouldn't tell people upfront is ridiculous, especially since that

is the truth, and since Shri Mataji's SY is a movement of truth. How

could you spread such a thing by concealing the very thing that it

is based on?

Besides, we worship her as such in private, enjoying that knowledge

for ourselves and that truth for ourselves, but when it comes time

for us to share that joy, that understanding and that salvation

which we have so unselfishly been given, suddenly that enthusiasm,

that belief and that joy leaves out the open window. Why? Is it

because we don't believe she is that enough to not care if people

ridicule or doubt, or is it because we don't want to seem strange in

the eyes of others, or is it because we are scared? If it is because we are

scared, which I truly think it is, then why not ask ourselves why we are scared?

If it is because we are scared that people will run away screaming

or ridicule us or not believe us thus never coming back, then we

should no longer be worried about that because doing the exact

opposite of what we have been asked to do has been producing the

very same results as we have been trying to avoid in the first

place. How could you be scared of an outcome that has already come

to pass, and has been ongoing for many years? Fear of the unknown

only can last as long as the unknown remains unknown. Its quite well

known that hardly anyone sticks on to SY as its being presented now,

so that fearful outcome is well known, thus fear of such should not

be present in us, especially if our conviction in those facts about

Shri Mataji are as strong as we make it to look like in private.

With that being said, then why not do what we were suppose to do;

tell everyone The savior has come as promised by Christ, and that –

that savior is the Holy Spirit, who Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi is the

incarnation of? If people run off they run off knowing the truth,

and either way the outcome would be the same as it has been for

years, the only difference is they will run off knowing the truth,

which in the end is the point. So do you think people are going to

know and understand that longing and what that longing and seeking

really is all for(which is the longing to know the Devi, to be one

with the Devi, and one with the self) if they aren't presented with

the truth and answers to those internal inquires? I doubt people

think that another yoga class will help them to find an end to that

longing which they feel inside, which can only be satiated by the

truth, by the spirit, by the Devi, which is completely removed from

what we present to such fragile seekers who have usually tried 1001

gurus and yoga variation before finding SY. It makes sense then why

that approach is not working.

I can say this because I know for myself that if I did not find out

the truth about who Shri mataji was upfront by these websites and

was presented with the facts to back up that claim, then SY by way

of the official presentation would have been something I may have

tried, felt nothing, and then left. The only reason I stayed on

despite not feeling much even after a year almost in it(a year this

October, though I have been reading these websites for almost 3

years)is because I know that it is not just a meditation, but a

tangible connection to God and to heaven. Also because I know others

who I introduced to SY who haven't paid any mind to it after the

initial experiences and perusal of the official website. I had been

to so many occult and esoteric gurus and healers who claimed

miraculous things before finding these websites , and having all the

scriptures backing up Shri Mataji and Jagbir's/his children's

experiences proved to me that this was much more then any false guru

and that it was indeed the truth, at least intellectual if nothing

else. After many years of reading and re reading the sites I started

SY and began to hear other puja speeches etc which totally

corroborated the facts on Jagbir's web sites, and that's when I

knew for sure that this was it. New comers don't have the benefit

and if they feel nothing and the experience can't be explained to

them in great detail and outside of a " wellness remedy " , then why

would they stay?

That brings me to my other point above; are we scared about losing

seekers to fear (which makes no sense because we have lost so many

that I have seen personally in less then a year even when not

telling the truth)or are we scared that we won't be able to answer

the questions that come up and no doubt will come up when we tell

anyone that Shri Mataji is the Holy Spirit; as promised by Jesus and

that these are indeed the end times as prophecies in many Holy

books? It is scary when you don't know something that is being asked

to be explained by you to someone else who may have more `knowledge'

of something then you do. However, fear of the unknown is easily

confronted and defeated by a very simple means; find out all that is

known and needed to be known, and miraculously the unknown becomes

the known and the fear that once reared its ugly head ceases to

exist. It may seem like a daunting task to peruse all the Holy books

and connect it all with what Shri Mataji has said, thus taking too

long to be worth it. Luckily for us, Jagbir has done all that work

for us by way of his websites, and as we study and until we know

more, we can simply give people the website(s) address and even

print material out from it to add to the regular material given out

in class. Not only that, but we as well can get a firm grounding in

much of it there. It also opens the door to the forum with many

other amazing people and ideas and allows one to read the holy books

on their own and gain a more in depth understanding of Shri Mataji

and our own personal Journey. I'll get to Jagbirs websites later on.

As I was saying, the fear that arises in us from anticipating we

will be confronted with questions we cannot answer is very real, but

can be done away with. My close friend Gordon Stephens, who is not a

realized soul, told me something a week or two ago when he suggested

we go out and take photos together. He is an amazing amateur

photographer, and we started at the same time. I was worried that I

couldn't take pictures as good as him and because I bought a new

camera that I didn't know how to work very well; those two together

we to much for my egos need for pride and recognition. He Said

something to me that had so much depth though it wasn't intended as

such. He said that I should study everything I can about my camera

and its settings, know it inside out, so that you are no longer

fearful of not knowing how to use it to produce the best quality

photos, but rather you become confident, capable, and able to handle

anything that may arise that would otherwise prevent you from

getting the shots you want. When one knows everything about

something, then there is no fear in it because everything is known

about it and you can handle anything very well. Sure unexpected

things come up, but because you know the answers and how it

functions based on reading and of course experiencing it, those

situations are easily handled and compensated for. No only that but

we have the Holy Spirit guiding us, so even extremely difficult

situations will be taken care of because of that extra hand coupled

with knowledge, which builds faith, which intern build unshakable

confidence.

(I am in no way an expert or even close, but everything I have

stated I am doing myself, studying myself and I am on my way to

becoming the expert we have all been asked to become. It's a long

journey but you have to start at some point)

That same thing applies to the spreading of Mother's Divine

message. If we fully educate ourselves about how Shri Mataji's

advent is prophesied in all the World's Great religions, how Jesus

spoke of her among many others, how everything she has said about

the kundalini, heaven, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Last Judgment an

Resurrection, etc in the infinite amount of speeches she has

given , any questions that will be asked by newcomers about how we

know Shri Mataji is the HolySpirit sent to save us from ourselves,

and about how this is the Last Judgment and Resurrection, can be

backed up by facts that anyone can study and see for themselves it

is true. That way we don't have to have this imaginary burden of

worry about how we will be able to prove to others our beliefs are

true, or wait out the years it will take for them to understand this

on a vibratory level (which ill get to in a second)etc. Two birds

with one stone, all in the name of truth and deep conviction. Not

only that but when you read what mother has said and read the Bible

for example, and see that it is indeed what has been proven and

explained in great detail by Shri Mataji, you begin to have

stronger faith in yourself and Shri Mataji, and it helps you focus

on the importance of ascent and spreading the word in comparison to

the worries of everyday life. For me at least, that has been a

Godsend and the lynch pin preventing me from completely reverting

back to my older, immoral, destructive self, which is still very

much attempting to drag me back with it into my past on a daily

basis.

I was told by a yogi that he was never interested in religion and

never really believed in it. To the average Sy he didn't really see

the purpose of learning about them and neither did I until I began

reading more and more about it on here. Now I realize how important

it is. In addition to everything else, How is it not when most of

the Holy Books were written by the prophets and incarnations

themselves, who we must accept for the kundalini to rise to

Sahastrara , for us to grow and for moksha to be granted? By

ignoring them or saying they are unimportant then we are saying we

don't accept them, thus not accepting the deities and Shri Mataji

Fully. How can we grow to our freedom? By reading the scriptures and

understanding the deities better, God better, we strengthen our

faith in ourselves, prove to ourselves it is really the Last

Judgment and Resurrection and accept the deities as have been asked

by mother. In no other way can we understand the deities FULLY or

the times we are now living in, or for that matter the teachings of

Shri Mataji without understanding what they have said about God and

these special times. Without that understanding how can we explain

it to others and answer their questions in a satisfactory manner.

" The main thing that one has to understand is that the time has come

for you to get all that is promised in the scriptures, not only in

the Bible but all the scriptures of the world. The time has come

today that you have to become a Christian, a Brahmin, a Pir, through

your Kundalini awakening only. There is no other way. And that your

Last Judgment is also now. "

Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi

Shri Mataji has said that we should become experts in the field of

SY. That means become experts about " Spontaneous Union With The

Divine " , not about the subtle system alone or about SY- the

organization. That sentence never held any weight or even crossed my

mind after I read it, but now the depth and relevance of it has

become apparent to me after many months in the collective and slowly

finding out what is required of us by The Adi Shakti in comparison

to what I have been doing and what I have seen others doing. If you

take her words to mean experts about Sahaja Yoga, then what would

you be becoming experts about? How to run an ashram? How to perform

a Puja? . How to do clearing of the chakras? How to sing bahjans?

How to decode the subtle system? IF that was the case, then we would

all be experts after about 2-3 months in SY at most. Do you think

the divine incarnated herself at all, but especially in such

terrible times to teach us about how the subtle body works and how

we can correct it to enjoy a more peaceful balanced life? If that

was the case Shri Mataji would have finished her work in early

1971, as it doesn't take much more then that amount of time to learn

all these external things. But no, She was teaching and giving such

in-depth speech's for more then three decades, and from the ones I

have seen, none of them mentioned pujas(even though they were at

pujas, less then a mention of what puja it was and why it was

auspicious) but rather such in depth information about every aspect

of life and the after life, past, present and future, all of which

is way over my head and probably will be for most of my life. Why

would she give more then 2000 speeches to teach the subtle system

and external rituals? It doesn't make any sense.

SO that must mean that being experts in SY means experts in

everything that has to do with Spontaneous union with the divine,

which mean we need to become experts at not ONLY how the subtle

system works, but more importantly how to live dharmic lives, how

the scriptures tell of these great times and of how they describe

Shri Mataji as the Holy Spirit in these times, how this is the Last

Judgment and Resurrection times, what that means, how it affects us,

what is to come, and all the other countless things related to that

and live them, thus teaching others how to live them as well.

Daunting task yes, but it is fully achievable and will take a long

time. However it is time well invested, both for self and for

others, especially new comers.

Another thing id like to touch on is, who are we to decided who is

ready to know the truth and who is not ready to know the truth? Who

are we to think we can determine that for others, and even if we

could, the truth is for all to be known, so who do we think we are

in any case that we can decided when, if at all, it is the right

time to tell people the truth and give them the opportunity to know

God? That's like a priest, or the pope, standing in the way and

also providing the only communication from God to you and vice

versa. Silly. What if you never found out who Shri Mataji was at

all? IF someone deemed you not ready and never told you the truth at

some point? I doubt you would still be around at all meditating or

anything of the like if you didn't know who Shri Mataji was. Do you

see how scary that might be. You might have no been told and still

on the endless quest to find satisfaction and answers, when you

could have found those answers many years ago. How many people are

still out there after a SY meeting looking for the answers they have

not found? I don't want to think about it.

Letting vibrations work it out and/or letting newcomers find out who

Shri Mataji is on a vibratory level of depth first is not going to

work either. For one, not all people feel vibrations up front or for

many months after due to their past actions in this life (I'm a

prime example of that). Secondly how can the vibrations work it out

if the significance of vibrations and what they are, are not

elaborated on at all? Of course to elaborate and explain them would

mean we would have to explain where they come from and why this lady

in the photo is emitting them, which means we would have to explain

who Shri Mataji is for them to be of any relevance. Self

realization and music programs have no meaning unless the people

know what it is and why that is important ; hence the scriptures.

The reason bahjans are sung and enjoyed by us is because we are

worshipping the Adi Shakti. Those songs have no meaning if their

purpose for singing them and why we are singing them and to who were

singing them are not known. They would be no different from other

songs. The reason we love them and why they have meaning is because

we know we are worshipping the goddess by singing them, hence they

have meaning, hence power, hence vibrations. If we didn't know who

Shri Mataji was, then the songs would just be enjoyable songs to be

listened to, entertainment, that's all. Much like how it is to

outsiders. In the same way vibrations and self realization has no

meaning unless their importance, meaning and purpose is known fully

and explain truthfully and fully as well. So how can just letting

the vibrations work it out work if the person has no understanding

of what vibrations are or what it is that is being or needs to be

worked out. It makes no sence.

I would like to close this section off by saying that we should not

be worried about weather or not people believe what we say about

Shri Mataji and Sy, especially if we believe it so deeply ourselves,

but rather focus our attention on learning everything we can about

it and how it is backed up by all religions. That way we can explain

it to new comers without our own fear of the unknown interfering,

answer there questions fully and knowledgably, and allow them to

think about the conversations we have had with them. It is not our

job to convert anybody or persuade people to believe what we say

about Shri Mataji, but rather to share this knowledge. It is also

not our job to baby sit anyone through there ascent, or walk them

along a path that only they can walk. They do however, need to be

presented with all the facts to weigh for them-selves and

understand, then they and only they can make a fully informed

decision about whether or not what has been said is or is not the

truth. They cannot be forced to believe so we should not be worried

about whether or not they believe what we say, rather just be

adamant that all the info regarding what we have said can be

presented, backed up by what Shri Mataji has said, and let them

judge for themselves. So why even worry about that or be afraid of

that If even the Adi Shakti herself cannot force us against our will

to believe what she has said or ask for self realization. IF She

can't do that then neither can we, so lets just do our job and leave

the rest to Shri Mataji and the individual person.

Before I go onto the second half of this email, I want to address

something. In the conversation that is spawning all these replies

and have had me thinking about this in depth and how I can better

help facilitate change in myself and make other people I truly care

for aware of the scope of Shri Mataji's incarnation, it was said to

me that I making the Vancouver collective out, and I guess Sy's in

general, to be doing something wrong. I would like to say that I

apologize if it has come across in my posts that I am painting the

Vancouver collective in a bad light and making it look as though

they are doing something wrong. To be honest, that is not my purpose

at all. However I would like to ask an open question to the

collective and everyone else. That is, you may not be doing anything

wrong, but how is inaction with regards to knowledge everyone should

have by birth right, any different then doing something

intentionally wrong? The knowledge is not ours to keep but only ours

to share, even if we don't understand the depth of it all or all the

teachings (which I certainly do not). Knowing that she is the Adi

Shakti within and that she is the prophesied messiah and praising

her in private shows that that belief has been established, so that

knowledge is known and must be shared, especially when we have been

asked repeatedly to do so. It is our duty to do so:

" Today, Sahaja Yoga has reached the state of Mahayoga, which is en-

masse evolution manifested through it. It is this day's Yuga Dharma.

It is the way the Last Judgment is taking place. Announce it to all

the seekers of truth, to all the nations of the world, so that

nobody misses the blessings of the Divine to achieve their meaning,

their absolute, their spirit. "

Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi

So maybe nothing intentionally is being done wrong, but lack of

action and duty is just the same, especially when countless people

are searching for the knowledge that we already have and may destroy

themselves in the process of that search, which could have been

prevented if we shared this knowledge openly and outwardly from day

one. How is that right?

I will end part two here and continue with the final part of this

three part(now its three parts) email. Part three will continue

where part two left off. I will post part three tomorrow( Saturday

Aug 26) sometime.

Thanks for listening everyone.

Kyyan

August 26, 2006

Dear Kyyan (and all),

i am not responding fully to this, because i know Jagbir is going to do that,

but i just want to say that it has struck me that it " is " fear, complete fear of

Shri Mataji's Message, that is the problem. SY's just don't know how to tell it.

And leaders are inspired by fear of those leaders before them, to tell it. It is

like a collective fear all around. i can feel it in my 'gut'... this fear.

Reading your email, i can feel this fear from the collective.

All around there is fear in the collective. Fear of this, and fear of that.

There is also not much spiritual research into the Scriptures, nor a really in

depth look into what Shri Mataji actually said; therefore a lot of spiritual

ignorance.

The collective are running on the fuel of their collective love and joy that

they feel within themselves, which is great, but it takes spiritual knowledge to

dispel ignorance. Shri Mataji knew that some people could not give spiritual

understanding in the form of teaching to others, because they were new

themselves, and did not have much spiritual understanding. To those, She said

just to give self-realisation because that was all they " could " do. Just

remember that Shri Mataji did not only give S.R. She explained, and explained,

and explained, until i am sure if it was us explaining for the 100,000th time

the same thing... we would have 'gone blue in the face', but Shri Mataji " did

that " for us!

Giving self-realisation always includes some explanation; some understanding.

Some give this from an approach of meditation/chakras/subtle system, but those

who have the spiritual understanding can give it from the approach of spiritual

knowledge that Shri Mataji, and all the other incarnations and prophets have

given. Kyyan is an example of the latter.

In the past, just like today, people have been afraid and had little confidence

to explain things, the way Shri Mataji has done; so She told them (since they

cannnot explain well) just to give the Self-Realisaton (at least!) even if the

person cannot explain spiritually what self-realisation is. However, this has

turned into a collective mantra, because too many SY's are spiritually ignorant

to explain and therefore the agreed collective mantra has become:

" We just want to give self-realisation. That is all we can do. That is all we

want to do. Therefore... " all you have to do is give self-realisation " !

It seems that now this is an acceptable thing, to remain in fear and spiritual

ignorance of actually being able to explain things. WCASY are not supporting

people like Kyyan in this either. It is a negativity that is promoted by

WCASY... this spiritual ignorance is endemic. Spiritual ignorance is also the

greatest negativity. Catches on chakras are basically to do with spiritual

ignorance. i am not going to go into this in depth, but spiritual ignorance is

the greatest negativity that affects chakras. Just ask Kyyan. i know he will

understand what i am saying.

violet

, " v_koa " <v_koa

wrote:

>

> Dear All ( Vancouver Collective and others)

>

> This is part two of the two part email I have been writing with

> regards to many things and I will split this " PART TWO " into two

> parts, making a total of three separate posts because part two will

> no doubt be extremely long.

>

> Id like to begin part two by saying a few words. After that I will

> touch on the " nuances " that I left out of the conversation(s) I had

> with a yogi regarding the spreading of Sahaja Yoga, which was

> thought by this yogi to change the context of his responses, thus

> twist what he meant to make him look stupid, and cast him in a bad

> light. From there I will just continue with the many other things I

> want to share and express to the Vancouver collective and others,

> which were spawned from contemplation on another conversation with

> the very same yogi I had when I was called by him with regards to

> slandering the collective on this forum.

>

> Firstly: (Vancouver collective). Im not sure if people are still

> opposed and angry with regards to what I have posted on this forum

> (as its been days since this all went down) or if people have read

> the " part one " of this two part email, but if anyone is still

> angry, then please ask yourself why. Is it because I have said

> something which is not the truth, which has not happened and is not

> happening currently, or because I have twisted the truth, over

> exaggerated the problems within our collective just to cast a bad

> light on the collective and side with a man you deem and many in the

> organization of SY deem off? Or rather, is it because you feel

> betrayed that someone from your own collective, who has eaten with

> you, talked with you, laughed with you and enjoyed your company has

> decided to air out the dirty laundry, and the innermost workings and

> issues of the collective to the public for all to see and hear?

> Basically what I mean is, is the real reason you are upset and angry

> is because you feel betrayed by me for telling private/personal

> collective matters to the public, thus making " our own business "

> very public and our problems very apparent; hence embarrassment?

> Please introspect and make sure any anger, hurt, or hostile feelings

> you may or may not have for me now because of what I have written is

> coming from a justified stance, rather then a challenge to the ego

> or feelings of betrayal. I say this because everything I have

> written over the months on this forum, as I have stated in part one,

> are all things I have personally experienced, seen and heard first

> hand. I have heard the same from other yogis and yoginis in the

> collective, so I know others have seen, heard and experienced the

> very same things, though maybe have not said it openly.

>

> We need to be transparent in everything we do, thus making public-

> private issues. This is a collective and our personal problems

> affect the whole since we are all connected, both in a personal way

> and a collective way. If one half of a tree is diseased, then by

> keeping quiet and out of sight of the other side of the tree that

> does not stop that other side of that tree from falling prey to the

> very same disease; does it? In the same way collective problems must

> be made public because transparency (even in bad times and

> embarrassing situations) is part of what being truthful is all

> about. Truth and love is what Sahaja Yoga is about, and how can a

> movement of truth and love be successful if the very foundations,

> truth and love, are not being practiced even when no one is looking?

> With reference to the tree again, if the diseased side can be made

> well again, then the other disease free side or side that has yet to

> be overrun completely by disease can also be made well, thus saved.

> In that way we can lift each other up and out of the clutches of

> death and decay, but the process of lifting and escaping

> that `death' starts from inside our selves, and inside our own

> collective first.

>

> More importantly, outsiders can see quite easily when something is

> not quite right, or not entirely out in the open, but rather hidden.

> This makes people feel there maybe more then meets the eye to

> whatever this person or organization is doing(in a bad way) and will

> most defiantly deter people from ever wanting to be a part of Sahaja

> Yoga. It will cast a doubtful eye on Shri Mataji and anything she

> says, because if they can see the people who are promoting it aren't

> living by what they are promoting or catch the `vibes' of whatever

> is going awry behind the scenes, they will listen to those `warning'

> signs within themselves and shy away from us. In the same way as we

> can sense intuitively if something seems a little `fishy', non

> realized souls can do the same even with no vibrations.

>

> They may begin to search out SY and Shri Mataji online and at that

> point with the seed of doubt and uneasiness already sprouting, any

> critical scathing of Sahaja Yoga or " skeptic cult website " , which we

> know are false but are out there to discredit ShriMataji, will

> immediately kill any lingering hope or doubtlessness, putting the

> nail in the coffin for us and that (those) seekers permanently. From

> there word of mouth sets in, and we all know word of mouth spreads

> like wildfire. That is not going to help us, nor is it going to help

> seekers or Shri Mataji, both in us and without us; is it? We will be

> defeated before the fight ever began.

>

> And I will say that these collective problems are not problems that

> I can point fingers at from the outside and at people and say I'm

> all righteous and perfect and superior to you `guys'(the collective)

> because I'm not, and I do not think that I am. However, your

> problems are my problems and the world's problems, especially if

> they subtly influence my behavior in a negative way- by way of SY

> conditionings and because we are collective. SO if your suffering

> then I'm suffering, weather I'm there or not, and if you heal I

> heal. SO if I see something wrong and am aware of the way to correct

> that wrong and am aware of information which I want to make you

> aware of and to judge for yourself its authenticity, then I will do

> that. Why would you fault me for such?

>

> With that I digress. Do not be mad but transparent, and under that

> light of day and in front of the eyes which are ever watching for

> signs of God at these End times , lets face ourselves and correct

> ourselves so we can correct and help others to correct themselves

> before its too late. As Shri Mataji has said " When Christ returns

> with his 11 forces of destruction, he is not going to be asking

> anyone to take realization. He will Just Sort out " . Who do you think

> will be responsible for however many people are just sorted out

> without every having the knowledge and chance to ascend and escape

> eternal destruction by mother's request?? Fear, ignorance, lack of

> action, and lack of seeking the answers on one's own due to blind

> faith based on others words is not an excuse.

>

> Now I would like to touch on the nuances I have been accused of

> leaving out which twisted the words of a particular yogi and the

> conversations I had with him where I quoted him as saying " we should

> not tell just anyone that Shri Mataji is God because it will scare

> them off. " First I will say that all those quotes from my posts

> previously on this forum were not from one conversation, but from

> many conversations on the topic over months and from e mails,

> particularly one , in response to my suggestions that we need to

> start telling the truth abut Shri Mataji.

>

> Basically it all started with an email I sent out to two or three

> people in my collective (one of which is this yogi) regarding

> spreading the truth up front and how the WCASY was corrupting the

> original message of SY by way of numerous quotes of messages posted

> on this forum and of Shri Mataji to back up that claim. It made the

> email quite a lengthy read.

>

> I should say that before and leading up to this I had mentioned

> these things in brief with this yogi, and he defiantly seemed

> receptive to the idea and even said that he had been thinking that

> it is about that time for things to change, and that he had been

> thinking of beginning to do that at classes and other places. He did

> say however, that although he was told who Shri Mataji was up front

> himself and knew what Shri Mataji meant based on understanding the

> language(Hindi maybe??), it is not the same for other people and

> other people may become scared and that we should ease them into

> that knowledge by way of vibrations. Also that he was not sure he

> was comfortable with doing that, as it may be too much for some.

> That was fine.

>

> Fast forward many months and many conversations which went much like

> the one above, maybe with the addition of " if YOU can do that then

> do that, spread it your own way " . SO I sent the email to this person

> and two others in hopes that because they were in my age range, were

> respected by the `elders thus had some sway' and because they

> expressed openness to these ideas, that they would be the first ones

> to start change and bring this up. The message minus the lengthy

> forum quotes can be read on this forum by searching for message

> #5660. The email was sent and I only received two out of the three

> yogis responses. One said that she read it and that she simply

> thinks that each person has their own way of spreading SY. The other

> yogi said that he didn't have time or the desire to read such a long

> email, and thus never read it. It was also mentioned that he did not

> want to have any of the negativity from the posts on this forum

> regarding the " attack " against the WCASY in his attention and wanted

> to remain clear headed by avoiding any negativity at all.

>

> At that point I didn't really bring it up again, but made sure that

> my thoughts on the matter and those conversations were written

> about, more so---so I could understand and ask if I was doing

> something wrong or perpetuating a wrong idea or something that was

> not suppose to be done. Also because I was very discouraged and

> could not understand why people did not want to step up to the plate

> or even listen to the `claims' I was making.

>

> I didn't mention it to much to anyone at my collective after that

> until I was confronted on my supposed slandering of SY on this

> forum, where a phone call followed regarding my posts on here. So

> these are the supposed nuances I left and perhaps not repeating the

> same conversation that happened over many months, that all went the

> very same way as the example above. I don't see how that changes the

> context of his responses to the effect of not telling who Shri

> Mataji is upfront , or that she is God, which he said, because it

> would scare people off if they have not found that out through

> vibrations first, which would help them understand it on a deeper

> level. Going about it this way was explained to me as a we of

> softening the blow or possibly outcry of such a supposed

> preposterous claim.

>

> So I will just go from here and touch on the rest of the points and

> questions/statements that were made in that recent phone call to me

> that I feel I need to express to understand the truths or untruths

> of them better and to simply talk of my collective experiences.

> Excuse me if the rest of this email is not a structured or coherent

> as the other parts.

>

> I don't know where this idea that we are not supposed to tell the

> truth about who Shri Mataji is upfront came from. It doesn't make

> sense, especially after she has asked us to do and to prove that she

> is that---the Holy Spirit sent in the fathers name to give testament

> and remembrance to all Jesus taught and could not teach, and to

> comfort us/give us our second birth in the times before the end. The

> line that is always slung around is that Shri Mataji said to just

> give realization and let the vibrations work out that realization

> that she is the Holy Spirit. Another line that seems to follow is

> that Shri Mataji herself said that she doesn't want to be crucified

> for saying she is God on earth, so that is the guideline that is

> followed when spreading SY.

>

> First of all Shri Mataji never said she was God. What Shri Mataji

> did say is that she is the Adi Shakti ( the Holy Spirit), not GOD,

> of which in the Sahastrara there is not a difference between her and

> him. Second of all, Shri Mataji did say that she does not tell who

> she is outright because she does not want to get crucified, but she

> did not say that we should not tell people outright who she is

> because she does not. Rather the exact opposite was said by her and

> I quote:

>

> " I am the Adi Shakti. I am the One who has come on this Earth for

> the first time in this form to do this tremendous task . The more

you understand this the better it would be. You will change

tremendously. I knew I'll have to say that openly one day and we have

said it. But now it is you people who have to prove it that I am

that! "

>

> Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi

> Sydney, Australia — March 21, 1983 "

>

> It is clearly seen that although she does not claim it outright

> herself for legitimate reasons, she has said it to us yogis and

> yoginis anyways so we understand, and that WE are the ones to prove

> that she is that. She does not have to prove that she is that, but

> we do. Even though, she herself has said at meetings and has said it

> on a Tv interview from the 80s, which I watched at a meeting at the

> local Guildford library in Surrey BC Canada. So to claim that we

> shouldn't tell people upfront is ridiculous, especially since that

> is the truth, and since Shri Mataji's SY is a movement of truth. How

> could you spread such a thing by concealing the very thing that it

> is based on?

>

> Besides, we worship her as such in private, enjoying that knowledge

> for ourselves and that truth for ourselves, but when it comes time

> for us to share that joy, that understanding and that salvation

> which we have so unselfishly been given, suddenly that enthusiasm,

> that belief and that joy leaves out the open window. Why? Is it

> because we don't believe she is that enough to not care if people

> ridicule or doubt, or is it because we don't want to seem strange in

> the eyes of others, or is it because we are scared? If it is

because we are scared, which I truly think it is, then why not ask

ourselves why we are scared?

>

> If it is because we are scared that people will run away screaming

> or ridicule us or not believe us thus never coming back, then we

> should no longer be worried about that because doing the exact

> opposite of what we have been asked to do has been producing the

> very same results as we have been trying to avoid in the first

> place. How could you be scared of an outcome that has already come

> to pass, and has been ongoing for many years? Fear of the unknown

> only can last as long as the unknown remains unknown. Its quite well

> known that hardly anyone sticks on to SY as its being presented now,

> so that fearful outcome is well known, thus fear of such should not

> be present in us, especially if our conviction in those facts about

> Shri Mataji are as strong as we make it to look like in private.

>

> With that being said, then why not do what we were suppose to do;

> tell everyone The savior has come as promised by Christ, and that –

> that savior is the Holy Spirit, who Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi is the

> incarnation of? If people run off they run off knowing the truth,

> and either way the outcome would be the same as it has been for

> years, the only difference is they will run off knowing the truth,

> which in the end is the point. So do you think people are going to

> know and understand that longing and what that longing and seeking

> really is all for(which is the longing to know the Devi, to be one

> with the Devi, and one with the self) if they aren't presented with

> the truth and answers to those internal inquires? I doubt people

> think that another yoga class will help them to find an end to that

> longing which they feel inside, which can only be satiated by the

> truth, by the spirit, by the Devi, which is completely removed from

> what we present to such fragile seekers who have usually tried 1001

> gurus and yoga variation before finding SY. It makes sense then why

> that approach is not working.

>

> I can say this because I know for myself that if I did not find out

> the truth about who Shri mataji was upfront by these websites and

> was presented with the facts to back up that claim, then SY by way

> of the official presentation would have been something I may have

> tried, felt nothing, and then left. The only reason I stayed on

> despite not feeling much even after a year almost in it(a year this

> October, though I have been reading these websites for almost 3

> years)is because I know that it is not just a meditation, but a

> tangible connection to God and to heaven. Also because I know others

> who I introduced to SY who haven't paid any mind to it after the

> initial experiences and perusal of the official website. I had been

> to so many occult and esoteric gurus and healers who claimed

> miraculous things before finding these websites , and having all the

> scriptures backing up Shri Mataji and Jagbir's/his children's

> experiences proved to me that this was much more then any false guru

> and that it was indeed the truth, at least intellectual if nothing

> else. After many years of reading and re reading the sites I started

> SY and began to hear other puja speeches etc which totally

> corroborated the facts on Jagbir's web sites, and that's when I

> knew for sure that this was it. New comers don't have the benefit

> and if they feel nothing and the experience can't be explained to

> them in great detail and outside of a " wellness remedy " , then why

> would they stay?

>

> That brings me to my other point above; are we scared about losing

> seekers to fear (which makes no sense because we have lost so many

> that I have seen personally in less then a year even when not

> telling the truth)or are we scared that we won't be able to answer

> the questions that come up and no doubt will come up when we tell

> anyone that Shri Mataji is the Holy Spirit; as promised by Jesus and

> that these are indeed the end times as prophecies in many Holy

> books? It is scary when you don't know something that is being asked

> to be explained by you to someone else who may have more `knowledge'

> of something then you do. However, fear of the unknown is easily

> confronted and defeated by a very simple means; find out all that is

> known and needed to be known, and miraculously the unknown becomes

> the known and the fear that once reared its ugly head ceases to

> exist. It may seem like a daunting task to peruse all the Holy books

> and connect it all with what Shri Mataji has said, thus taking too

> long to be worth it. Luckily for us, Jagbir has done all that work

> for us by way of his websites, and as we study and until we know

> more, we can simply give people the website(s) address and even

> print material out from it to add to the regular material given out

> in class. Not only that, but we as well can get a firm grounding in

> much of it there. It also opens the door to the forum with many

> other amazing people and ideas and allows one to read the holy books

> on their own and gain a more in depth understanding of Shri Mataji

> and our own personal Journey. I'll get to Jagbirs websites later on.

>

> As I was saying, the fear that arises in us from anticipating we

> will be confronted with questions we cannot answer is very real, but

> can be done away with. My close friend Gordon Stephens, who is not a

> realized soul, told me something a week or two ago when he suggested

> we go out and take photos together. He is an amazing amateur

> photographer, and we started at the same time. I was worried that I

> couldn't take pictures as good as him and because I bought a new

> camera that I didn't know how to work very well; those two together

> we to much for my egos need for pride and recognition. He Said

> something to me that had so much depth though it wasn't intended as

> such. He said that I should study everything I can about my camera

> and its settings, know it inside out, so that you are no longer

> fearful of not knowing how to use it to produce the best quality

> photos, but rather you become confident, capable, and able to handle

> anything that may arise that would otherwise prevent you from

> getting the shots you want. When one knows everything about

> something, then there is no fear in it because everything is known

> about it and you can handle anything very well. Sure unexpected

> things come up, but because you know the answers and how it

> functions based on reading and of course experiencing it, those

> situations are easily handled and compensated for. No only that but

> we have the Holy Spirit guiding us, so even extremely difficult

> situations will be taken care of because of that extra hand coupled

> with knowledge, which builds faith, which intern build unshakable

> confidence.

>

> (I am in no way an expert or even close, but everything I have

> stated I am doing myself, studying myself and I am on my way to

> becoming the expert we have all been asked to become. It's a long

> journey but you have to start at some point)

>

> That same thing applies to the spreading of Mother's Divine

> message. If we fully educate ourselves about how Shri Mataji's

> advent is prophesied in all the World's Great religions, how Jesus

> spoke of her among many others, how everything she has said about

> the kundalini, heaven, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Last Judgment an

> Resurrection, etc in the infinite amount of speeches she has

> given , any questions that will be asked by newcomers about how we

> know Shri Mataji is the HolySpirit sent to save us from ourselves,

> and about how this is the Last Judgment and Resurrection, can be

> backed up by facts that anyone can study and see for themselves it

> is true. That way we don't have to have this imaginary burden of

> worry about how we will be able to prove to others our beliefs are

> true, or wait out the years it will take for them to understand this

> on a vibratory level (which ill get to in a second)etc. Two birds

> with one stone, all in the name of truth and deep conviction. Not

> only that but when you read what mother has said and read the Bible

> for example, and see that it is indeed what has been proven and

> explained in great detail by Shri Mataji, you begin to have

> stronger faith in yourself and Shri Mataji, and it helps you focus

> on the importance of ascent and spreading the word in comparison to

> the worries of everyday life. For me at least, that has been a

> Godsend and the lynch pin preventing me from completely reverting

> back to my older, immoral, destructive self, which is still very

> much attempting to drag me back with it into my past on a daily

> basis.

>

> I was told by a yogi that he was never interested in religion and

> never really believed in it. To the average Sy he didn't really see

> the purpose of learning about them and neither did I until I began

> reading more and more about it on here. Now I realize how important

> it is. In addition to everything else, How is it not when most of

> the Holy Books were written by the prophets and incarnations

> themselves, who we must accept for the kundalini to rise to

> Sahastrara , for us to grow and for moksha to be granted? By

> ignoring them or saying they are unimportant then we are saying we

> don't accept them, thus not accepting the deities and Shri Mataji

> Fully. How can we grow to our freedom? By reading the scriptures and

> understanding the deities better, God better, we strengthen our

> faith in ourselves, prove to ourselves it is really the Last

> Judgment and Resurrection and accept the deities as have been asked

> by mother. In no other way can we understand the deities FULLY or

> the times we are now living in, or for that matter the teachings of

> Shri Mataji without understanding what they have said about God and

> these special times. Without that understanding how can we explain

> it to others and answer their questions in a satisfactory manner.

>

> " The main thing that one has to understand is that the time has come

> for you to get all that is promised in the scriptures, not only in

> the Bible but all the scriptures of the world. The time has come

> today that you have to become a Christian, a Brahmin, a Pir, through

> your Kundalini awakening only. There is no other way. And that your

> Last Judgment is also now. "

>

> Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi

>

> Shri Mataji has said that we should become experts in the field of

> SY. That means become experts about " Spontaneous Union With The

> Divine " , not about the subtle system alone or about SY- the

> organization. That sentence never held any weight or even crossed my

> mind after I read it, but now the depth and relevance of it has

> become apparent to me after many months in the collective and slowly

> finding out what is required of us by The Adi Shakti in comparison

> to what I have been doing and what I have seen others doing. If you

> take her words to mean experts about Sahaja Yoga, then what would

> you be becoming experts about? How to run an ashram? How to perform

> a Puja? . How to do clearing of the chakras? How to sing bahjans?

> How to decode the subtle system? IF that was the case, then we would

> all be experts after about 2-3 months in SY at most. Do you think

> the divine incarnated herself at all, but especially in such

> terrible times to teach us about how the subtle body works and how

> we can correct it to enjoy a more peaceful balanced life? If that

> was the case Shri Mataji would have finished her work in early

> 1971, as it doesn't take much more then that amount of time to learn

> all these external things. But no, She was teaching and giving such

> in-depth speech's for more then three decades, and from the ones I

> have seen, none of them mentioned pujas(even though they were at

> pujas, less then a mention of what puja it was and why it was

> auspicious) but rather such in depth information about every aspect

> of life and the after life, past, present and future, all of which

> is way over my head and probably will be for most of my life. Why

> would she give more then 2000 speeches to teach the subtle system

> and external rituals? It doesn't make any sense.

>

> SO that must mean that being experts in SY means experts in

> everything that has to do with Spontaneous union with the divine,

> which mean we need to become experts at not ONLY how the subtle

> system works, but more importantly how to live dharmic lives, how

> the scriptures tell of these great times and of how they describe

> Shri Mataji as the Holy Spirit in these times, how this is the Last

> Judgment and Resurrection times, what that means, how it affects us,

> what is to come, and all the other countless things related to that

> and live them, thus teaching others how to live them as well.

> Daunting task yes, but it is fully achievable and will take a long

> time. However it is time well invested, both for self and for

> others, especially new comers.

>

> Another thing id like to touch on is, who are we to decided who is

> ready to know the truth and who is not ready to know the truth? Who

> are we to think we can determine that for others, and even if we

> could, the truth is for all to be known, so who do we think we are

> in any case that we can decided when, if at all, it is the right

> time to tell people the truth and give them the opportunity to know

> God? That's like a priest, or the pope, standing in the way and

> also providing the only communication from God to you and vice

> versa. Silly. What if you never found out who Shri Mataji was at

> all? IF someone deemed you not ready and never told you the truth at

> some point? I doubt you would still be around at all meditating or

> anything of the like if you didn't know who Shri Mataji was. Do you

> see how scary that might be. You might have no been told and still

> on the endless quest to find satisfaction and answers, when you

> could have found those answers many years ago. How many people are

> still out there after a SY meeting looking for the answers they have

> not found? I don't want to think about it.

>

> Letting vibrations work it out and/or letting newcomers find out who

> Shri Mataji is on a vibratory level of depth first is not going to

> work either. For one, not all people feel vibrations up front or for

> many months after due to their past actions in this life (I'm a

> prime example of that). Secondly how can the vibrations work it out

> if the significance of vibrations and what they are, are not

> elaborated on at all? Of course to elaborate and explain them would

> mean we would have to explain where they come from and why this lady

> in the photo is emitting them, which means we would have to explain

> who Shri Mataji is for them to be of any relevance. Self

> realization and music programs have no meaning unless the people

> know what it is and why that is important ; hence the scriptures.

> The reason bahjans are sung and enjoyed by us is because we are

> worshipping the Adi Shakti. Those songs have no meaning if their

> purpose for singing them and why we are singing them and to who were

> singing them are not known. They would be no different from other

> songs. The reason we love them and why they have meaning is because

> we know we are worshipping the goddess by singing them, hence they

> have meaning, hence power, hence vibrations. If we didn't know who

> Shri Mataji was, then the songs would just be enjoyable songs to be

> listened to, entertainment, that's all. Much like how it is to

> outsiders. In the same way vibrations and self realization has no

> meaning unless their importance, meaning and purpose is known fully

> and explain truthfully and fully as well. So how can just letting

> the vibrations work it out work if the person has no understanding

> of what vibrations are or what it is that is being or needs to be

> worked out. It makes no sence.

>

> I would like to close this section off by saying that we should not

> be worried about weather or not people believe what we say about

> Shri Mataji and Sy, especially if we believe it so deeply ourselves,

> but rather focus our attention on learning everything we can about

> it and how it is backed up by all religions. That way we can explain

> it to new comers without our own fear of the unknown interfering,

> answer there questions fully and knowledgably, and allow them to

> think about the conversations we have had with them. It is not our

> job to convert anybody or persuade people to believe what we say

> about Shri Mataji, but rather to share this knowledge. It is also

> not our job to baby sit anyone through there ascent, or walk them

> along a path that only they can walk. They do however, need to be

> presented with all the facts to weigh for them-selves and

> understand, then they and only they can make a fully informed

> decision about whether or not what has been said is or is not the

> truth. They cannot be forced to believe so we should not be worried

> about whether or not they believe what we say, rather just be

> adamant that all the info regarding what we have said can be

> presented, backed up by what Shri Mataji has said, and let them

> judge for themselves. So why even worry about that or be afraid of

> that If even the Adi Shakti herself cannot force us against our will

> to believe what she has said or ask for self realization. IF She

> can't do that then neither can we, so lets just do our job and leave

> the rest to Shri Mataji and the individual person.

>

> Before I go onto the second half of this email, I want to address

> something. In the conversation that is spawning all these replies

> and have had me thinking about this in depth and how I can better

> help facilitate change in myself and make other people I truly care

> for aware of the scope of Shri Mataji's incarnation, it was said to

> me that I making the Vancouver collective out, and I guess Sy's in

> general, to be doing something wrong. I would like to say that I

> apologize if it has come across in my posts that I am painting the

> Vancouver collective in a bad light and making it look as though

> they are doing something wrong. To be honest, that is not my purpose

> at all. However I would like to ask an open question to the

> collective and everyone else. That is, you may not be doing anything

> wrong, but how is inaction with regards to knowledge everyone should

> have by birth right, any different then doing something

> intentionally wrong? The knowledge is not ours to keep but only ours

> to share, even if we don't understand the depth of it all or all the

> teachings (which I certainly do not). Knowing that she is the Adi

> Shakti within and that she is the prophesied messiah and praising

> her in private shows that that belief has been established, so that

> knowledge is known and must be shared, especially when we have been

> asked repeatedly to do so. It is our duty to do so:

>

> " Today, Sahaja Yoga has reached the state of Mahayoga, which is en-

> masse evolution manifested through it. It is this day's Yuga Dharma.

> It is the way the Last Judgment is taking place. Announce it to all

> the seekers of truth, to all the nations of the world, so that

> nobody misses the blessings of the Divine to achieve their meaning,

> their absolute, their spirit. "

>

> Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi

>

> So maybe nothing intentionally is being done wrong, but lack of

> action and duty is just the same, especially when countless people

> are searching for the knowledge that we already have and may destroy

> themselves in the process of that search, which could have been

> prevented if we shared this knowledge openly and outwardly from day

> one. How is that right?

>

> I will end part two here and continue with the final part of this

> three part(now its three parts) email. Part three will continue

> where part two left off. I will post part three tomorrow( Saturday

> Aug 26) sometime.

>

> Thanks for listening everyone.

>

> Kyyan

>

August 28, 2006

Dea Kyyan,

You have written a brutally honest and brilliant classic that i

cannot buff and polish any more. So i have decided that i will quote

from your classic to lend support to my arguements. For a start i am

going to delete the previous post of mine and re-post again with

quotes from your classic. Thanks for the time and effort and courage

it took to write in detail.

Jai Shri Ganapathi,

jagbir

, " v_koa " <v_koa

wrote:

>

> Dear All ( Vancouver Collective and others)

>

> This is part two of the two part email I have been writing with

> regards to many things and I will split this " PART TWO " into two

> parts, making a total of three separate posts because part two

will no doubt be extremely long.