Guest guest Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Muruga Saranam Dear Mr. Gokhale, For everyone it is a challange to face the Karma and succeed with His help. If it was given to individuals at Birth why some one was given a better position and someone a weaker position. Kodithu Kodithu Varumai Kodithu was words or Avvaiyar. Because in Poverty you will not be able to think of God. People overcome that and succeed by His grace. But if you take common people poverty has a lot of influence on one's spiritual advancement. Likewise many disadvantages can slow down or threat one's spiritual progress and one would be in a better position to advance spiritually with better health and wealth. Again with all that His grace is important for one to progress. However his mind will be less preoccupied with survival difficulties and will have enough time for prayers and thoughts of God. So this discrimination does not justify at birth. God treats all equally. So one will have some previous account balance which puts Him in such position at birth which we call as prarabda karma. Your friend is correct that in spite of all situations one should make progress in submitting himself to God (thats what the word Islam means and one who submits himself or surrenders himself is called a Muslim, not the one who does the prayer rituals five times when prayer calls come). Islam has excellent principles and sings the glories of God in the finest of the words possible. But the problem is Muslims restrict themselves to Prophet Muhammed and Quraan alone and forget that they are only means and guidance sent by God and not everything for them. At times they hold them (Prophet Muhammed and Quran) strongly and forget about God. I am referring to Good Faithful Muslims here. Every argument debate will atop at one point. This is what Prophet Muhammed said or did and thisis what told in Quran. Knowing that I am nothing to questin the authority of God and His prophet words written in Quran or spoken by Prophet to guide his people are all under the limitations of hman language which can always not express everything one feels or needs to understand. Words cannot express all feeling or understandings. Same words will be interpreted by different people in different ways. It will always happen and thats why you have so many schools of thoughts in Islam and in every religion. Swami Vivekananda says in fact each and every individual has his own religion which differ in some ways or other but rightful - May All Glories be to God The greatest and most elevated which muslims say as Allahu Subhanu va Thaala when they hear great things beyond human abilities. So it is this strict interpretation of words, scriptures and rituals has made muslims progress less, not because of Quran or Prophet Muhammed. I can quote some more examples from their own hadiths known as updates. Worse part which has generated a sentiment against muslims generally is their harsh criticism about other religion. One will be attracted to Islam by seeing good muslims. By knowing the greatness of God as described in Islam. If they want to make others know its greatness they should speak about the good things in Islam. Speaking about what is bad in other religions does not go well. If viewed from an abstract point of view the eternal truth is same in all religions. Swami Vivekananda has thrown some light on why different prophets were sent at different times and what they would say if they all meet. He said that all were telling the same thing but to suit to different people different cultures at different times. This also will not be accepted by muslims saying that all is true that there were many and their validity is over when Prophet Muhammed was sent. I dont know how all muslims use same words and phrases and thoughts. Such is the strong machinery of their propagation. I admire that. It was possible because of the way of life taught by Prophet Muhammed that has been carried out over millenniums with comparitively least corruption. I think I am going off the topic and it will never stop. The problem is we are less educated about our own religion, reasons our own parents. But good thing is all of us have good faith in God and we always belive inHim and Love Him. again reason is our own parents. This is the way we have been raised with less zeal in religion but more fervour in Love to God. May All Glories be to Lord Muruga, who has Himself occupied our minds by His boundless Grace. Sorry I could not reply precisely due to lack of time. Vetrivel Muruganukku Arohara !!! Muruga Saranam With Best Regards Meyyappan S On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 4:27 PM, R. DEVI ANAND GOKHALE <samuraigokhale wrote: Muruga Saranam,Dear Group members...Here I want to share some of my debates with my other religion friend and I am putting forward some of the questions also to you what he asked me. I am greatly awaiting the reply from our Group scholors. One day I was talking with one of my best Islam friend about both of our religion. He was trying to say his religion is best in the whole world. But I compared some of their rituals with hinduism. But he is not ready to accept or compromise what I am telling to him. Here I give our conversations. First he said, How you people are worshipping the God almighty in the form of Idol. It is so ridiculous. Like that he started first. From here we started the debate.Then he asked about the reincarnation. Upto my knowledge the reincarnation idea is only in our religion. None of the other religion accept this. I read in Sri.Chandrasekara swamigal's " Deivaththin Kural Book " , he stated as follow, One day a foreign lady (Christian) came to Our swamy and she asks the the same question which my friend asked me. At that time Our swamigal asked her to go to the near by hospital and get the records of the child who is borning at there. She left from there. After one week she came back to Swamiji with the record what she had taken from the hospital. Swamiji asked her to give the result. She began to say, One child is very lean and ugly, One child had no eyes, One child is very very beautiful but born in a poor family, One child had all the things like, health, wealth. After hearing this, Our swami replied, As per your religion's theory, If a man has no rebirth, then, why these innocent children are born in different positions. In Christianity, the God is very very merciful and graceful, then why he is doing like this? So that child's previous Karma is the only reason for this differences among their birth. That lady left from there without any questions.When I told this incident to my Muslim friend, He gave me one beautiful explanation for the absence of Rebirth. Really I could not talk with him more after that explanation. That explanation is, The God is most merciful and generous. The reason for these differences in birth is, The God want to examine the man who come to this earth. In his creation a child may be Blind,may be Poor, may be born in wealthy family. Wherever he born, he must do the duties as mentioned in Quran. If all the people is wealthy and healthy nobody will think about the God and no one get chance to help each other. So, nobody can increase their Punyam to go to heaven. This may lead to collapse the life style of the mankind. If a man is wealthy, He must give a part of his wealth to the poor. Even a man is poor, he must think about the God. If he fails, he will go to hell. When I was contemplating about this discussion from his point of view, he is absolutely right. He asked me one more question. In Islam, Our Quran is telling how the God created this universe and the mankind from Adam and Eve. Like this is there any text in Hinduism mentioning about the creation of this universe? If so, Give me the proof. I could not answer to his question. I replied him, I don't have that much of knowledge. I will ask somebody and let you know.So, Dear members I am forwarding this question to your perusal. Please send me the answer for the above two questions. Awaiting for your replies.Thanks and regards,R. Devi anand gokhale.Muruga saranam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Dear All,I am stepping by to put some of my thoughts on a possibly " hot " topic - opened by one of our Marathi members Sri Gokhle (!?). I may be little (or even very) harsh at junctures. Please excuse the language so. Before I continue, one more point - it is absolutely useless to discuss things - and such things are for useless people alone - people with no good work but to disturb harmony of the world. No educated Hindu (more on the word Hindu later ...) shall every do such a rotten activity. For he knows - the reality - the way of Dharma and need not argue with anyone - that is the way of the hoary religion known today as Hinduism. I will partly try to answer the questions and partly try to reason by reverse-questioning. > How you people are worshipping the God almighty in the form of Idol. It is so ridiculous. Why not ? Why is it ridiculous ? Keeping aside that god is formless - how should a commoner comprehend God ? How should he relate - only to his surroundings - of what he knows - idols are one of the best way of relating to one's environment - a form like one can easily comprehend. Besides - if I were to discuss the science of Idol worship - so many things would come out - which I am sure no Muslim - far from comprehending would never even understand even a bit - because most of them come with the intent of proving the other wrong - not with an open mind - as such no amount of reasoning will ever convince them. > Up to my knowledge the reincarnation idea is only in our religion. None of the other religion accept this. Actually, technically speaking even Bauddha, Jaina religions  believe in re-incarnation. This is so complex - it is far from human comprehension to understand it - even in minuscule part. Mr. Meyyappan's counter argument was quite apt - for re-incarnation. Regarding your conversation - your friend actually never gave a reply to this, rather beautifully escaped it by twisting the conversation with a paltry and ridiculous preposition, I quote - That explanation is, The God is most merciful and generous. The reason for these differences in birth is, The God want to examine the man who come to this earth. In his creation a child may be Blind,may be Poor, may be born in wealthy family. Wherever he born, he must do the duties as mentioned in Quran. If all the people is wealthy and healthy nobody will think about the God and no one get chance to help each other. So, nobody can increase their Punyam to go to heaven. This may lead to collapse the life style of the mankind. If a man is wealthy, He must give a part of his wealth to the poor. Even a man is poor, he must think about the God. If he fails, he will go to hell. I shall even beautifully twist the argument with a reverse-preposition for which there can be real no answer since this is a stupid argument - for which I am giving a similar reverse-argument - If god was really merciful - why did he ever send humans to earth - he could have sent them directly to the so-called heaven which the so-called scripture mentions ? Why did'nt he do this. If his aim was to test - then in reality he is no God - since he is not omniscient - thus you have negated his state of being god - since he did not know each individual's innate character. What happens to people who go to hell ? do they have any chance to reform - if so how ? If not - then again your so called God is no God at all since even on Earth people are given chance to reform - it would mean the so called god of the muslims is injust - which means he is no God at all ?! Why should people think about God ? - On a humorous side - what happens if there is overflow of creations in Heaven - it would be facing a tough time trying to keep the ends intact - due to population explosion - we are already seeing how Muslims have been extremely efficient and successful in literally more than octaplying their population in India - and given the current population - according to our economists overpopulation is not very healthy for the land - heaven would be having a tough time keeping up with the population build up ! Regarding " words " , Mr. Meyyappan  - I would like to something here - Words may not suffice to describe the Supreme truth - since that is said to be indescribable - however words are potent enough to convey the yathaartha bhaava of one's feelings etc. -Maharshi Patanjali goes far and wide describing this occult science of words - which is for the most part shrouded today. Probably human languages do have this limitation. But there was a language many millenia ago - vogue in the Brahmarishi Desha known as Arsha Bhasha - which is for the most part lost today - which was extremely potent in its conveying capabilities - atleast as far as I know. Modern Day Sanskrit - is one could say a simplified form of that Language. This might confuse one - but I have just put it in a nutshell though not accurate - one could write pages together discussing this. Regarding offensive/abusive way of talking about their religion - there are some startling things I read in a scholarly paper which states and quotes the words of Quaraan which says that one attains heaven when one kills (slaughters?) non-muslims or converts them to islam - how can this ever be called a religion, when it professes violence and homicide ? - this is worse than tribal faiths. These people come up with all sorts of stupid questions - ha poppycock. Our scriptures goes to such lengths as to discuss the creation of the matter - leave alone Universe - and this fool asks if there is creation of mankind - give me a break! Finally Hinduism is of a (at least as far as I know) relatively modern origin - coined by our English friends a century or two ago - since there was no name for the religion. To be even more specific and to quote Bhagavandas, Hinduism was not and is not a religion at all - rather it is a way of life - when the English men arrived on Indian shores they needed to call this something - and thus coined the name Hindu - roughly meaning " Of Sindhu " - sindhu being the river - since they feel our civilization is deeply routed with that river ??? In reality it is Sanatana Dharma - the One Universal Dharma - The one which has not time - the one which is devoid of creation & destruction - the one which exists. Seeing from a even broader perspective - every one falls under this irrespective of what he calls or professes himself. At the end truth remains truth - and if anyone were to disprove it - scriptures say - no one has ever been able to do so - and no over will ever be - since Truth alone reigns supreme. || Satyameva Jayate || R. ÅšivarÄmakṛṣṇa Å›armÄhttp://www.arunagirinathar.co.cc|| Tiruchitrambalam || 2009/7/22 S Meyyappan <smeyyappan  Muruga Saranam  Dear Mr. Gokhale,  For everyone it is a challange to face the Karma and succeed with His help. If it was given to individuals at Birth why some one was given a better position and someone a weaker position. Kodithu Kodithu Varumai Kodithu was words or Avvaiyar. Because in Poverty you will not be able to think of God. People overcome that and succeed by His grace. But if you take common people poverty has a lot of influence on one's spiritual advancement. Likewise many disadvantages can slow down or threat one's spiritual progress and one would be in a better position to advance spiritually with better health and wealth. Again with all that His grace is important for one to progress. However his mind will be less preoccupied with survival difficulties and will have enough time for prayers and thoughts of God. So this discrimination does not justify at birth. God treats all equally. So one will have some previous account balance which puts Him in such position at birth which we call as prarabda karma. Your friend is correct that in spite of all situations one should make progress in submitting himself to God (thats what the word Islam means and one who submits himself or surrenders himself is called a Muslim, not the one who does the prayer rituals five times when prayer calls come).  Islam has excellent principles and sings the glories of God in the finest of the words possible. But the problem is Muslims restrict themselves to Prophet Muhammed and Quraan alone and forget that they are only means and guidance sent by God and not everything for them. At times they hold them (Prophet Muhammed and Quran) strongly and forget about God. I am referring to Good Faithful Muslims here. Every argument debate will atop at one point. This is what Prophet Muhammed said or did and thisis what told in Quran. Knowing that I am nothing to questin the authority of God and His prophet words written in Quran or spoken by Prophet to guide his people are all under the limitations of hman language which can always not express everything one feels or needs to understand. Words cannot express all feeling or understandings. Same words will be interpreted by different people in different ways. It will always happen and thats why you have so many schools of thoughts in Islam and in every religion. Swami Vivekananda says in fact each and every individual has his own religion which differ in some ways or other but rightful - May All Glories be to God The greatest and most elevated which muslims say as Allahu Subhanu va Thaala when they hear great things beyond human abilities. So it is this strict interpretation of words, scriptures and rituals has made muslims progress less, not because of Quran or Prophet Muhammed. I can quote some more examples from their own hadiths known as updates. Worse part which has generated a sentiment against muslims generally is their harsh criticism about other religion. One will be attracted to Islam by seeing good muslims. By knowing the greatness of God as described in Islam. If they want to make others know its greatness they should speak about the good things in Islam. Speaking about what is bad in other religions does not go well.  If viewed from an abstract point of view the eternal truth is same in all religions. Swami Vivekananda has thrown some light on why different prophets were sent at different times and what they would say if they all meet. He said that all were telling the same thing but to suit to different people different cultures at different times. This also will not be accepted by muslims saying that all is true that there were many and their validity is over when Prophet Muhammed was sent. I dont know how all muslims use same words and phrases and thoughts. Such is the strong machinery of their propagation. I admire that. It was possible because of the way of life taught by Prophet Muhammed that has been carried out over millenniums with comparitively least corruption.  I think I am going off the topic and it will never stop. The problem is we are less educated about our own religion, reasons our own parents. But good thing is all of us have good faith in God and we always belive inHim and Love Him. again reason is our own parents. This is the way we have been raised with less zeal in religion but more fervour in Love to God. May All Glories be to Lord Muruga, who has Himself occupied our minds by His boundless Grace. Sorry I could not reply precisely due to lack of time.  Vetrivel Muruganukku Arohara !!!  Muruga Saranam  With Best Regards Meyyappan S   On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 4:27 PM, R. DEVI ANAND GOKHALE <samuraigokhale wrote:  Muruga Saranam,Dear Group members...Here I want to share some of my debates with my other religion friend and I am putting forward some of the questions also to you what he asked me. I am greatly awaiting the reply from our Group scholors. One day I was talking with one of my best Islam friend about both of our religion. He was trying to say his religion is best in the whole world. But I compared some of their rituals with hinduism. But he is not ready to accept or compromise what I am telling to him. Here I give our conversations. First he said, How you people are worshipping the God almighty in the form of Idol. It is so ridiculous. Like that he started first. From here we started the debate.Then he asked about the reincarnation. Upto my knowledge the reincarnation idea is only in our religion. None of the other religion accept this. I read in Sri.Chandrasekara swamigal's " Deivaththin Kural Book " , he stated as follow, One day a foreign lady (Christian) came to Our swamy and she asks the the same question which my friend asked me. At that time Our swamigal asked her to go to the near by hospital and get the records of the child who is borning at there. She left from there. After one week she came back to Swamiji with the record what she had taken from the hospital. Swamiji asked her to give the result. She began to say, One child is very lean and ugly, One child had no eyes, One child is very very beautiful but born in a poor family, One child had all the things like, health, wealth. After hearing this, Our swami replied, As per your religion's theory, If a man has no rebirth, then, why these innocent children are born in different positions. In Christianity, the God is very very merciful and graceful, then why he is doing like this? So that child's previous Karma is the only reason for this differences among their birth. That lady left from there without any questions.When I told this incident to my Muslim friend, He gave me one beautiful explanation for the absence of Rebirth. Really I could not talk with him more after that explanation. That explanation is, The God is most merciful and generous. The reason for these differences in birth is, The God want to examine the man who come to this earth. In his creation a child may be Blind,may be Poor, may be born in wealthy family. Wherever he born, he must do the duties as mentioned in Quran. If all the people is wealthy and healthy nobody will think about the God and no one get chance to help each other. So, nobody can increase their Punyam to go to heaven. This may lead to collapse the life style of the mankind. If a man is wealthy, He must give a part of his wealth to the poor. Even a man is poor, he must think about the God. If he fails, he will go to hell. When I was contemplating about this discussion from his point of view, he is absolutely right. He asked me one more question. In Islam, Our Quran is telling how the God created this universe and the mankind from Adam and Eve. Like this is there any text in Hinduism mentioning about the creation of this universe? If so, Give me the proof. I could not answer to his question. I replied him, I don't have that much of knowledge. I will ask somebody and let you know.So, Dear members I am forwarding this question to your perusal. Please send me the answer for the above two questions. Awaiting for your replies.Thanks and regards,R. Devi anand gokhale.Muruga saranam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Dear All, nice thought provoking and educating discussions.learning a lot from these discussions. Thankyou, Priya R. ÅšivarÄmakṛṣṇa Å›armÄ <arunagirinathardhandapani Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:18:45 AMRe: Hinduism Dear All, I am stepping by to put some of my thoughts on a possibly "hot" topic - opened by one of our Marathi members Sri Gokhle (!?). I may be little (or even very) harsh at junctures. Please excuse the language so. Before I continue, one more point - it is absolutely useless to discuss things - and such things are for useless people alone - people with no good work but to disturb harmony of the world. No educated Hindu (more on the word Hindu later ...) shall every do such a rotten activity. For he knows - the reality - the way of Dharma and need not argue with anyone - that is the way of the hoary religion known today as Hinduism. I will partly try to answer the questions and partly try to reason by reverse-questioning . > How you people are worshipping the God almighty in the form of Idol. It is so ridiculous. Why not ? Why is it ridiculous ? Keeping aside that god is formless - how should a commoner comprehend God ? How should he relate - only to his surroundings - of what he knows - idols are one of the best way of relating to one's environment - a form like one can easily comprehend. Besides - if I were to discuss the science of Idol worship - so many things would come out - which I am sure no Muslim - far from comprehending would never even understand even a bit - because most of them come with the intent of proving the other wrong - not with an open mind - as such no amount of reasoning will ever convince them. > Up to my knowledge the reincarnation idea is only in our religion. None of the other religion accept this. Actually, technically speaking even Bauddha, Jaina religions believe in re-incarnation. This is so complex - it is far from human comprehension to understand it - even in minuscule part. Mr. Meyyappan's counter argument was quite apt - for re-incarnation. Regarding your conversation - your friend actually never gave a reply to this, rather beautifully escaped it by twisting the conversation with a paltry and ridiculous preposition, I quote - That explanation is, The God is most merciful and generous. The reason for these differences in birth is, The God want to examine the man who come to this earth. In his creation a child may be Blind,may be Poor, may be born in wealthy family. Wherever he born, he must do the duties as mentioned in Quran. If all the people is wealthy and healthy nobody will think about the God and no one get chance to help each other. So, nobody can increase their Punyam to go to heaven. This may lead to collapse the life style of the mankind. If a man is wealthy, He must give a part of his wealth to the poor. Even a man is poor, he must think about the God. If he fails, he will go to hell. I shall even beautifully twist the argument with a reverse-preposition for which there can be real no answer since this is a stupid argument - for which I am giving a similar reverse-argument - If god was really merciful - why did he ever send humans to earth - he could have sent them directly to the so-called heaven which the so-called scripture mentions ? Why did'nt he do this. If his aim was to test - then in reality he is no God - since he is not omniscient - thus you have negated his state of being god - since he did not know each individual's innate character. What happens to people who go to hell ? do they have any chance to reform - if so how ? If not - then again your so called God is no God at all since even on Earth people are given chance to reform - it would mean the so called god of the muslims is injust - which means he is no God at all ?! Why should people think about God ? - On a humorous side - what happens if there is overflow of creations in Heaven - it would be facing a tough time trying to keep the ends intact - due to population explosion - we are already seeing how Muslims have been extremely efficient and successful in literally more than octaplying their population in India - and given the current population - according to our economists overpopulation is not very healthy for the land - heaven would be having a tough time keeping up with the population build up ! Regarding "words", Mr. Meyyappan - I would like to something here - Words may not suffice to describe the Supreme truth - since that is said to be indescribable - however words are potent enough to convey the yathaartha bhaava of one's feelings etc. -Maharshi Patanjali goes far and wide describing this occult science of words - which is for the most part shrouded today. Probably human languages do have this limitation. But there was a language many millenia ago - vogue in the Brahmarishi Desha known as Arsha Bhasha - which is for the most part lost today - which was extremely potent in its conveying capabilities - atleast as far as I know. Modern Day Sanskrit - is one could say a simplified form of that Language. This might confuse one - but I have just put it in a nutshell though not accurate - one could write pages together discussing this. Regarding offensive/abusive way of talking about their religion - there are some startling things I read in a scholarly paper which states and quotes the words of Quaraan which says that one attains heaven when one kills (slaughters? ) non-muslims or converts them to islam - how can this ever be called a religion, when it professes violence and homicide ? - this is worse than tribal faiths. These people come up with all sorts of stupid questions - ha poppycock. Our scriptures goes to such lengths as to discuss the creation of the matter - leave alone Universe - and this fool asks if there is creation of mankind - give me a break! Finally Hinduism is of a (at least as far as I know) relatively modern origin - coined by our English friends a century or two ago - since there was no name for the religion. To be even more specific and to quote Bhagavandas, Hinduism was not and is not a religion at all - rather it is a way of life - when the English men arrived on Indian shores they needed to call this something - and thus coined the name Hindu - roughly meaning "Of Sindhu" - sindhu being the river - since they feel our civilization is deeply routed with that river ??? In reality it is Sanatana Dharma - the One Universal Dharma - The one which has not time - the one which is devoid of creation & destruction - the one which exists. Seeing from a even broader perspective - every one falls under this irrespective of what he calls or professes himself. At the end truth remains truth - and if anyone were to disprove it - scriptures say - no one has ever been able to do so - and no over will ever be - since Truth alone reigns supreme. || Satyameva Jayate || R. ÅšivarÄmakṛṣṇa Å›armÄ http://www.arunagir inathar.co. cc|| Tiruchitrambalam || 2009/7/22 S Meyyappan <smeyyappan (AT) gmail (DOT) com> Muruga Saranam Dear Mr. Gokhale, For everyone it is a challange to face the Karma and succeed with His help. If it was given to individuals at Birth why some one was given a better position and someone a weaker position. Kodithu Kodithu Varumai Kodithu was words or Avvaiyar. Because in Poverty you will not be able to think of God. People overcome that and succeed by His grace. But if you take common people poverty has a lot of influence on one's spiritual advancement. Likewise many disadvantages can slow down or threat one's spiritual progress and one would be in a better position to advance spiritually with better health and wealth. Again with all that His grace is important for one to progress. However his mind will be less preoccupied with survival difficulties and will have enough time for prayers and thoughts of God. So this discrimination does not justify at birth. God treats all equally. So one will have some previous account balance which puts Him in such position at birth which we call as prarabda karma. Your friend is correct that in spite of all situations one should make progress in submitting himself to God (thats what the word Islam means and one who submits himself or surrenders himself is called a Muslim, not the one who does the prayer rituals five times when prayer calls come). Islam has excellent principles and sings the glories of God in the finest of the words possible. But the problem is Muslims restrict themselves to Prophet Muhammed and Quraan alone and forget that they are only means and guidance sent by God and not everything for them. At times they hold them (Prophet Muhammed and Quran) strongly and forget about God. I am referring to Good Faithful Muslims here. Every argument debate will atop at one point. This is what Prophet Muhammed said or did and thisis what told in Quran. Knowing that I am nothing to questin the authority of God and His prophet words written in Quran or spoken by Prophet to guide his people are all under the limitations of hman language which can always not express everything one feels or needs to understand. Words cannot express all feeling or understandings. Same words will be interpreted by different people in different ways. It will always happen and thats why you have so many schools of thoughts in Islam and in every religion. Swami Vivekananda says in fact each and every individual has his own religion which differ in some ways or other but rightful - May All Glories be to God The greatest and most elevated which muslims say as Allahu Subhanu va Thaala when they hear great things beyond human abilities. So it is this strict interpretation of words, scriptures and rituals has made muslims progress less, not because of Quran or Prophet Muhammed. I can quote some more examples from their own hadiths known as updates. Worse part which has generated a sentiment against muslims generally is their harsh criticism about other religion. One will be attracted to Islam by seeing good muslims. By knowing the greatness of God as described in Islam. If they want to make others know its greatness they should speak about the good things in Islam. Speaking about what is bad in other religions does not go well. If viewed from an abstract point of view the eternal truth is same in all religions. Swami Vivekananda has thrown some light on why different prophets were sent at different times and what they would say if they all meet. He said that all were telling the same thing but to suit to different people different cultures at different times. This also will not be accepted by muslims saying that all is true that there were many and their validity is over when Prophet Muhammed was sent. I dont know how all muslims use same words and phrases and thoughts. Such is the strong machinery of their propagation. I admire that. It was possible because of the way of life taught by Prophet Muhammed that has been carried out over millenniums with comparitively least corruption. I think I am going off the topic and it will never stop. The problem is we are less educated about our own religion, reasons our own parents. But good thing is all of us have good faith in God and we always belive inHim and Love Him. again reason is our own parents. This is the way we have been raised with less zeal in religion but more fervour in Love to God. May All Glories be to Lord Muruga, who has Himself occupied our minds by His boundless Grace. Sorry I could not reply precisely due to lack of time. Vetrivel Muruganukku Arohara !!! Muruga Saranam With Best Regards Meyyappan S On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 4:27 PM, R. DEVI ANAND GOKHALE <samuraigokhale@ .co. in> wrote: Muruga Saranam,Dear Group members...Here I want to share some of my debates with my other religion friend and I am putting forward some of the questions also to you what he asked me. I am greatly awaiting the reply from our Group scholors.One day I was talking with one of my best Islam friend about both of our religion. He was trying to say his religion is best in the whole world. But I compared some of their rituals with hinduism. But he is not ready to accept or compromise what I am telling to him. Here I give our conversations.First he said, How you people are worshipping the God almighty in the form of Idol. It is so ridiculous. Like that he started first. From here we started the debate.Then he asked about the reincarnation. Upto my knowledge the reincarnation idea is only in our religion. None of the other religion accept this. I read in Sri.Chandrasekara swamigal's "Deivaththin Kural Book", he stated as follow, One day a foreign lady (Christian) came to Our swamy and she asks the the same question which my friend asked me. At that time Our swamigal asked her to go to the near by hospital and get the records of the child who is borning at there. She left from there. After one week she came back to Swamiji with the record what she had taken from the hospital. Swamiji asked her to give the result. She began to say, One child is very lean and ugly, One child had no eyes, One child is very very beautiful but born in a poor family, One child had all the things like, health, wealth.After hearing this, Our swami replied, As per your religion's theory, If a man has no rebirth, then, why these innocent children are born in different positions. In Christianity, the God is very very merciful and graceful, then why he is doing like this? So that child's previous Karma is the only reason for this differences among their birth. That lady left from there without any questions.When I told this incident to my Muslim friend, He gave me one beautiful explanation for the absence of Rebirth. Really I could not talk with him more after that explanation.That explanation is, The God is most merciful and generous. The reason for these differences in birth is, The God want to examine the man who come to this earth. In his creation a child may be Blind,may be Poor, may be born in wealthy family. Wherever he born, he must do the duties as mentioned in Quran. If all the people is wealthy and healthy nobody will think about the God and no one get chance to help each other. So, nobody can increase their Punyam to go to heaven. This may lead to collapse the life style of the mankind. If a man is wealthy, He must give a part of his wealth to the poor. Even a man is poor, he must think about the God. If he fails, he will go to hell.When I was contemplating about this discussion from his point of view, he is absolutely right. He asked me one more question. In Islam, Our Quran is telling how the God created this universe and the mankind from Adam and Eve. Like this is there any text in Hinduism mentioning about the creation of this universe? If so, Give me the proof.I could not answer to his question. I replied him, I don't have that much of knowledge. I will ask somebody and let you know.So, Dear members I am forwarding this question to your perusal. Please send me the answer for the above two questions. Awaiting for your replies.Thanks and regards,R. Devi anand gokhale.Muruga saranam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Hello,Idol worship is only part of hindusm. It is a stepping stone creatingconcentration towards a higher level of spiritualism. What I can say here is Islamis a part of hindusm, and it has been simplified and adaptable during the periodit was created. Reincarnation has been proven if not 100% scientifically andthere are more researches are being done on this subject at this moment. I am sad to see humans are far below the spiritual awareness andthey are still talking about religion rather than spiritualism.  Debatingwithin religion will not see any solution, because each has their own path toreach the destination. We do not own anything in this world, as the whole it is “ ALLAHMALIKâ€. Continue doing good and love the world. May peace be with all of you. May god bless all human beings. Karthig dhandapani [dhandapani ] On Behalf Of R.?ivarÄmak???a ?armÄThursday, July 23, 2009 12:19 AMdhandapani Subject: Re: Hinduism Dear All, I am stepping by to put some of my thoughts on a possibly " hot " topic - opened by one of our Marathi members Sri Gokhle (!?). Imay be little (or even very) harsh at junctures. Please excuse the language so.Before I continue, one more point - it is absolutely useless to discuss things- and such things are for useless people alone - people with no good work butto disturb harmony of the world. No educated Hindu (more on the word Hindulater ...) shall every do such a rotten activity. For he knows - the reality -the way of Dharma and need not argue with anyone - that is the way of the hoaryreligion known today as Hinduism. I will partly try to answer the questions and partly try toreason by reverse-questioning. > How you peopleare worshipping the God almighty in the form of Idol. It is so ridiculous. Why not ? Why is it ridiculous? Keeping aside that god is formless - how should a commoner comprehendGod ? How should he relate - only to his surroundings - of what he knows -idols are one of the best way of relating to one's environment - a form likeone can easily comprehend. Besides - if I were to discuss the science of Idolworship - so many things would come out - which I am sure no Muslim - far fromcomprehending would never even understand even a bit - because most of themcome with the intent of proving the other wrong - not with an open mind - assuch no amount of reasoning will ever convince them. > Up to myknowledge the reincarnation idea is only in our religion. None of the otherreligion accept this. Actually, technically speakingeven Bauddha, Jaina religions believe in re-incarnation. This is socomplex - it is far from human comprehension to understand it - evenin minuscule part. Mr. Meyyappan's counter argument was quiteapt - for re-incarnation. Regarding your conversation - your friendactually never gave a reply to this, rather beautifully escaped it by twistingthe conversation with a paltry and ridiculous preposition, I quote - That explanation is, The Godis most merciful and generous. The reason for these differences in birth is,The God want to examine the man who come to this earth. In his creation a childmay be Blind,may be Poor, may be born in wealthy family. Wherever he born, hemust do the duties as mentioned in Quran. If all the people is wealthy andhealthy nobody will think about the God and no one get chance to help eachother. So, nobody can increase their Punyam to go to heaven. This may lead tocollapse the life style of the mankind. If a man is wealthy, He must give apart of his wealth to the poor. Even a man is poor, he must think about theGod. If he fails, he will go to hell. I shall even beautifully twistthe argument with a reverse-preposition for which there can be real no answersince this is a stupid argument - for which I am giving a similarreverse-argument - If god was really merciful -why did he ever send humans to earth - he could have sent them directly to theso-called heaven which the so-called scripture mentions ? Why did'nt he dothis. If his aim was to test - then in reality he is no God - since he is notomniscient - thus you have negated his state of being god - since he did notknow each individual's innate character. What happens to people who go to hell? do they have any chance to reform - if so how ? If not - then again your socalled God is no God at all since even on Earth people are given chance to reform- it would mean the so called god of the muslims is injust - which means he isno God at all ?! Why should people think about God ? - On a humorous side - whathappens if there is overflow of creations in Heaven - it would be facing atough time trying to keep the ends intact - due to population explosion - weare already seeing how Muslims have been extremely efficient andsuccessful in literally more than octaplying their population in India - andgiven the current population - according to our economists overpopulation isnot very healthy for the land - heaven would be having a tough time keeping upwith the population build up ! Regarding " words " ,Mr. Meyyappan - I would like to something here - Words may not suffice todescribe the Supreme truth - since that is said to be indescribable - howeverwords are potent enough to convey the yathaartha bhaava of one's feelings etc.-Maharshi Patanjali goes far and wide describing this occult science of words -which is for the most part shrouded today. Probably human languages do havethis limitation. But there was a language many millenia ago - vogue in theBrahmarishi Desha known as Arsha Bhasha - which is for the most part lost today- which was extremely potent in its conveying capabilities - atleast as far asI know. Modern Day Sanskrit - is one could say a simplified form of thatLanguage. This might confuse one - but I have just put it in a nutshell thoughnot accurate - one could write pages together discussing this. Regarding offensive/abusive wayof talking about their religion - there are some startling things I read in ascholarly paper which states and quotes the words of Quaraan which says thatone attains heaven when one kills (slaughters?) non-muslims or converts them toislam - how can this ever be called a religion, when it professes violence andhomicide ? - this is worse than tribal faiths. These people come up with allsorts of stupid questions - ha poppycock. Our scriptures goes to suchlengths as to discuss the creation of the matter - leave alone Universe - andthis fool asks if there is creation of mankind - give me a break! Finally Hinduism is of a (atleast as far as I know) relatively modern origin - coined by our Englishfriends a century or two ago - since there was no name for the religion. To beeven more specific and to quote Bhagavandas, Hinduism was not and is not areligion at all - rather it is a way of life - when the English men arrived onIndian shores they needed to call this something - and thus coined the nameHindu - roughly meaning " Of Sindhu " - sindhu being theriver - since they feel our civilization is deeply routed with thatriver ??? In reality it is SanatanaDharma - the One Universal Dharma - The one which has not time - the one whichis devoid of creation & destruction - the one which exists. Seeingfrom a even broader perspective - every one falls under this irrespective ofwhat he calls or professes himself. At the end truth remains truth- and if anyone were to disprove it - scriptures say - no one has ever beenable to do so - and no over will ever be - since Truth alone reigns supreme. || Satyameva Jayate || R. ÅšivarÄmakṛṣṇaÅ›armÄhttp://www.arunagirinathar.co.cc|| Tiruchitrambalam ||2009/7/22 S Meyyappan <smeyyappan Muruga Saranam Dear Mr. Gokhale, For everyone it is a challange toface the Karma and succeed with His help. If it was given to individuals atBirth why some one was given a better position and someone a weaker position.Kodithu Kodithu Varumai Kodithu was words or Avvaiyar. Because in Poverty youwill not be able to think of God. People overcome that and succeed by Hisgrace. But if you take common people poverty has a lot of influence on one'sspiritual advancement. Likewise many disadvantages can slow down or threatone's spiritual progress and one would be in a better position to advancespiritually with better health and wealth. Again with all that His grace isimportant for one to progress. However his mind will be less preoccupied withsurvival difficulties and will have enough time for prayers and thoughts ofGod. So this discrimination does not justify at birth. God treats all equally.So one will have some previous account balance which puts Him in such positionat birth which we call as prarabda karma. Your friend is correct that in spiteof all situations one should make progress in submitting himself to God (thatswhat the word Islam means and one who submits himself or surrenders himself iscalled a Muslim, not the one who does the prayer rituals five times when prayercalls come). Islam has excellent principles andsings the glories of God in the finest of the words possible. But the problemis Muslims restrict themselves to Prophet Muhammed and Quraan alone and forgetthat they are only means and guidance sent by God and not everything for them.At times they hold them (Prophet Muhammed and Quran) strongly and forget aboutGod. I am referring to Good Faithful Muslims here. Every argument debate willatop at one point. This is what Prophet Muhammed said or did and thisis what toldin Quran. Knowing that I am nothing to questin the authority of God and Hisprophet words written in Quran or spoken by Prophet to guide his people are allunder the limitations of hman language which can always not express everythingone feels or needs to understand. Words cannot express all feeling orunderstandings. Same words will be interpreted by different people in differentways. It will always happen and thats why you have so many schools of thoughtsin Islam and in every religion. Swami Vivekananda says in fact each and everyindividual has his own religion which differ in some ways or other but rightful- May All Glories be to God The greatest and most elevated which muslimssay as Allahu Subhanu va Thaala when they hear great things beyond humanabilities. So it is this strict interpretation of words, scriptures and ritualshas made muslims progress less, not because of Quran or Prophet Muhammed. I canquote some more examples from their own hadiths known as updates.Worse part which has generated a sentiment against muslims generally is theirharsh criticism about other religion. One will be attracted to Islam by seeinggood muslims. By knowing the greatness of God as described in Islam. If theywant to make others know its greatness they should speak about the good thingsin Islam. Speaking about what is bad in other religions does not go well. If viewed from an abstract point ofview the eternal truth is same in all religions. Swami Vivekananda has thrownsome light on why different prophets were sent at different times and what theywould say if they all meet. He said that all were telling the same thing but tosuit to different people different cultures at different times. This also willnot be accepted by muslims saying that all is true that there were many andtheir validity is over when Prophet Muhammed was sent. I dont know how allmuslims use same words and phrases and thoughts. Such is the strong machineryof their propagation. I admire that. It was possible because of the way of lifetaught by Prophet Muhammed that has been carried out over millenniums withcomparitively least corruption. I think I am going off the topicand it will never stop. The problem is we are less educated about our ownreligion, reasons our own parents. But good thing is all of us have good faithin God and we always belive inHim and Love Him. again reason is our ownparents. This is the way we have been raised with less zeal in religion butmore fervour in Love to God. May All Glories be to Lord Muruga, who has Himselfoccupied our minds by His boundless Grace. Sorry I could not reply preciselydue to lack of time. Vetrivel Muruganukku Arohara !!! Muruga Saranam With Best RegardsMeyyappan S On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 4:27 PM, R.DEVI ANAND GOKHALE <samuraigokhale wrote: Muruga Saranam,Dear Group members...Here I want to share some of my debates with my other religion friend and I amputting forward some of the questions also to you what he asked me. I amgreatly awaiting the reply from our Group scholors.One day I was talking with one of my best Islam friend about both of ourreligion. He was trying to say his religion is best in the whole world. But Icompared some of their rituals with hinduism. But he is not ready to accept orcompromise what I am telling to him. Here I give our conversations.First he said, How you people are worshipping the God almighty in the form ofIdol. It is so ridiculous. Like that he started first. From here we started thedebate.Then he asked about the reincarnation. Upto my knowledge the reincarnation ideais only in our religion. None of the other religion accept this. I read inSri.Chandrasekara swamigal's " Deivaththin Kural Book " , he stated asfollow, One day a foreign lady (Christian) came to Our swamy and she asks thethe same question which my friend asked me. At that time Our swamigal asked herto go to the near by hospital and get the records of the child who is borningat there. She left from there. After one week she came back to Swamiji with therecord what she had taken from the hospital. Swamiji asked her to give theresult. She began to say, One child is very lean and ugly, One child had noeyes, One child is very very beautiful but born in a poor family, One child hadall the things like, health, wealth.After hearing this, Our swami replied, As per your religion's theory, If a manhas no rebirth, then, why these innocent children are born in differentpositions. In Christianity, the God is very very merciful and graceful, thenwhy he is doing like this? So that child's previous Karma is the only reasonfor this differences among their birth. That lady left from there without any questions.When I told this incident to my Muslim friend, He gave me one beautifulexplanation for the absence of Rebirth. Really I could not talk with him moreafter that explanation.That explanation is, The God is most merciful and generous. The reason forthese differences in birth is, The God want to examine the man who come to thisearth. In his creation a child may be Blind,may be Poor, may be born in wealthyfamily. Wherever he born, he must do the duties as mentioned in Quran. If allthe people is wealthy and healthy nobody will think about the God and no oneget chance to help each other. So, nobody can increase their Punyam to go toheaven. This may lead to collapse the life style of the mankind. If a man iswealthy, He must give a part of his wealth to the poor. Even a man is poor, hemust think about the God. If he fails, he will go to hell.When I was contemplating about this discussion from his point of view, he isabsolutely right. He asked me one more question. In Islam, Our Quran is telling how the Godcreated this universe and the mankind from Adam and Eve. Like this is there anytext in Hinduism mentioning about the creation of this universe? If so, Give methe proof.I could not answer to his question. I replied him, I don't have that much ofknowledge. I will ask somebody and let you know.So, Dear members I am forwarding this question to your perusal. Please send methe answer for the above two questions. Awaiting for your replies.Thanks and regards,R. Devi anand gokhale.Muruga saranam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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