Proof for the Sanathana dharma in Arabian land.

August 22, 2009

Muruga Saranam.Dear Group members,Here I came with one of the wonderful article which I read in danielpipes.org submitted by Mr. Rama from UAE. I have pasted that article below this message for the sake of our Group member. I hope it will be helpful and informative to our members.Thanks/Regards,Deve anand gokhale.R_________________________Islam and Quran is only a Concept

Reader comment on item: [The Issue of Compulsion in Religion:]

Islam is What Its Followers Make of It

in response to reader comment: A True Muslim

Submitted by Rama (United Arab Emirates), Oct 2,

2006 at 09:26

I

refer to the recent debate with Dr.Naik who is also a well learned man from

Islamic literature. I have seen him on television many occassion abusing Hindu

Dharma and also he referred on many occassion critizing Hindu way of prayers. I

felt little annoyed and thought to myself that someone who is well learned

about Hindu Dharma to have a debate and explain Dr.Naik and open his safety

vault of knowledge and pour in correct information about Hindu Dharma.

The

opportunity came when Sri Sri was to explain the real meaning of HINDU DHARMA

and specially Sanathana Dharma. First of all we must all understand that HINDU religion

was a name given only for recognition with other religion. Before the birth of

various religion like Buddhism, Sikkisim, Judaisim, Christianity, Islam etc

there was only one method of living and practicising life called by its name

Sanathana Dharma and its also called PURE INTELLEGANCE or PURUSHA /BRAHMA/ etc

there is no particular date of birth of Sanathana Dharma. Whereas all other

religion has a era that is date of birth. Islam came year 1500 , christianity

came year 2000 etc. The highest truth is anything that has begining has an end

and anything that takes birth has to die. Whereas SANATHANA DHARMA never born

there is no date of birth and no body can put an era to it..so this SANATHANA

DHARMA will never die. As explained in ISA VASYAM UPANISHAD..

Verse

4, 5, and 8 describe the nature of Self as:

Self is One, unmoving, and faster than the mind. The senses cannot overtake It,

since It is already there when we try to reach it. Only all-pervasive,

stationary, and infinite entity (Absolute Consciousness) can qualify to become

the Self. Such Self can be described as, "That moves and that does not

move; that is far off and that is very near; that is inside all this and that

is also outside all this." That has no begining and that has no end"

Kaaba

a Hindu Temple?

[Note: A recent archeological find in Kuwait unearthed a gold-plated

statue of the Hindu deity Ganesh. A Muslim resident of Kuwait requested

historical research material that can help explain the connection

between Hindu civilisation and Arabia.]

Was

the Kaaba Originally a Hindu Temple?

By P.N. Oak (Historian)

Glancing

through some research material recently, I was pleasantly

surprised to come across a reference to a king Vikramaditya inscription

found in the Kaaba in Mecca proving beyond doubt that the Arabian

Peninsula formed a part of his Indian Empire.

The text of the crucial Vikramaditya inscription, found inscribed on a

gold dish hung inside the Kaaba shrine in Mecca, is found recorded on

page 315 of a volume known as 'Sayar-ul-Okul' treasured in the

Makhtab-e-Sultania library in Istanbul, Turkey. Rendered in free

English the inscription says:

"Fortunate are those who were born (and lived) during king Vikram's

reign. He was a noble, generous dutiful ruler, devoted to the welfare

of his subjects. But at that time we Arabs, oblivious of God, were lost

in sensual pleasures. Plotting and torture were rampant. The darkness

of ignorance had enveloped our country. Like the lamb struggling for

her life in the cruel paws of a wolf we Arabs were caught up in

ignorance. The entire country was enveloped in a darkness so intense as

on a new moon night. But the present dawn and pleasant sunshine of

education is the result of the favour of the noble king Vikramaditya

whose benevolent supervision did not lose sight of us- foreigners as we

were. He spread his sacred religion amongst us and sent scholars whose

brilliance shone like that of the sun from his country to ours. These

scholars and preceptors through whose benevolence we were once again

made cognisant of the presence of God, introduced to His sacred

existence and put on the road of Truth, had come to our country to

preach their religion and impart education at king Vikramaditya's

behest."

For those who would like to read the Arabic wording I reproduce it

hereunder in Roman script:

"Itrashaphai Santu Ibikramatul Phahalameen Karimun Yartapheeha

Wayosassaru Bihillahaya Samaini Ela Motakabberen Sihillaha Yuhee Quid

min howa Yapakhara phajjal asari nahone osirom bayjayhalem. Yundan

blabin Kajan blnaya khtoryaha sadunya kanateph netephi bejehalin

Atadari bilamasa- rateen phakef tasabuhu kaunnieja majekaralhada

walador. As hmiman burukankad toluho watastaru hihila Yakajibaymana

balay kulk amarena phaneya jaunabilamary Bikramatum".

(Page 315 Sayar-ul-okul).

[Note: The title 'Saya-ul-okul' signifies memorable words.]

A careful analysis of the above inscription enables us to draw the

following conclusions:

That the ancient Indian empires may have extended up to the eastern

boundaries of Arabia until Vikramaditya and that it was he who for the

first time conquered Arabia. Because the inscription says that king

Vikram who dispelled the darkness of ignorance from Arabia.

That, whatever their earlier faith, King Vikrama's preachers had

succeeded in spreading the Vedic (based on the Vedas, the Hindu sacred

scriptures)) way of life in Arabia.

That the knowledge of Indian arts and sciences was imparted by Indians

to the Arabs directly by founding schools, academies and cultural

centres. The belief, therefore, that visiting Arabs conveyed that

knowledge to their own lands through their own indefatigable efforts

and scholarship is unfounded.

An ancillary conclusion could be that the so-called Kutub Minar (in

Delhi, India) could well be king Vikramadiya's tower commemorating

his conquest of Arabia. This conclusion is strengthened by two

pointers. Firstly, the inscription on the iron pillar near the

so-called Kutub Minar refers to the marriage of the victorious king

Vikramaditya to the princess of Balhika. This Balhika is none other

than the Balkh region in West Asia. It could be that Arabia was

wrestled by king Vikramaditya from the ruler of Balkh who concluded a

treaty by giving his daughter in marriage to the victor. Secondly, the

township adjoining the so called Kutub Minar is named Mehrauli after

Mihira who was the renowned astronomer-mathematician of king Vikram's

court. Mehrauli is the corrupt form of Sanskrit 'Mihira-Awali'

signifying a row of houses raised for Mihira and his helpers and

assistants working on astronomical observations made from the tower.

Having seen the far reaching and history shaking implications of the

Arabic inscription concerning king Vikrama, we shall now piece together

the story of its find. How it came to be recorded and hung in the Kaaba

in Mecca. What are the other proofs reinforcing the belief that Arabs

were once followers of the Indian Vedic way of life and that

tranquillity and education were ushered into Arabia by king

Vikramaditya's scholars, educationists from an uneasy period of

"ignorance and turmoil" mentioned in the inscription.

In Istanbul, Turkey, there is a famous library called

Makhatab-e-Sultania, which is reputed to have the largest collection of

ancient West Asian literature. In the Arabic section of that library is

an anthology of ancient Arabic poetry. That anthology was compiled from

an earlier work in A.D. 1742 under the orders of the Turkish ruler

Sultan Salim.

The pages of that volume are of Hareer - a kind of silk used for

writing on. Each page has a decorative gilded border. That anthology is

known as Sayar-ul-Okul. It is divided into three parts. The first part

contains biographic details and the poetic compositions of pre-Islamic

Arabian poets. The second part embodies accounts and verses of poets of

the period beginning just after prophet Mohammad's times, up to the

end of the Banee-Um-Mayya dynasty. The third part deals with later

poets up to the end of Khalif Harun-al-Rashid's times.

Abu Amir Asamai, an Arabian bard who was the poet Laureate of

Harun-al-Rashid's court, has compiled and edited the anthology.

The first modern edition of 'Sayar-ul-Okul' was printed and

published in Berlin in 1864. A subsequent edition is the one published

in Beirut in 1932.

The collection is regarded as the most important and authoritative

anthology of ancient Arabic poetry. It throws considerable light on the

social life, customs, manners and entertainment modes of ancient

Arabia. The book also contains an elaborate description of the ancient

shrine of Mecca, the town and the annual fair known as OKAJ which used

to be held every year around the Kaaba temple in Mecca. This should

convince readers that the annual haj of the Muslims to the Kaaba is of

earlier pre-Islamic congregation.

But the OKAJ fair was far from a carnival. It provided a forum for the

elite and the learned to discuss the social, religious, political,

literary and other aspects of the Vedic culture then pervading Arabia.

'Sayar-ul-Okul' asserts that the conclusion reached at those

discussions were widely respected throughout Arabia. Mecca, therefore,

followed the Varanasi tradition (of India) of providing a venue for

important discussions among the learned while the masses congregated

there for spiritual bliss. The principal shrines at both Varanasi in

India and at Mecca in Arvasthan (Arabia) were Siva temples. Even to

this day ancient Mahadev (Siva) emblems can be seen. It is the Shankara

(Siva) stone that Muslim pilgrims reverently touch and kiss in the

Kaaba.

Arabic tradition has lost trace of the founding of the Kaaba temple.

The discovery of the Vikramaditya inscription affords a clue. King

Vikramaditya is known for his great devotion to Lord Mahadev (Siva). At

Ujjain (India), the capital of Vikramaditya, exists the famous shrine

of Mahankal, i.e., of Lord Shankara (Siva) associated with

Vikramaditya. Since according to the Vikramaditya inscription he spread

the Vedic religion, who else but he could have founded the Kaaba temple

in Mecca?

A few miles away from Mecca is a big signboard which bars the entry of

any non-Muslim into the area. This is a reminder of the days when the

Kaaba was stormed and captured solely for the newly established faith

of Islam. The object in barring entry of non-Muslims was obviously to

prevent its recapture.

As the pilgrim proceeds towards Mecca he is asked to shave his head and

beard and to don special sacred attire that consists of two seamless

sheets of white cloth. One is to be worn round the waist and the other

over the shoulders. Both these rites are remnants of the old Vedic

practice of entering Hindu temples clean- and with holy seamless white

sheets.

The main shrine in Mecca,

which houses the Siva emblem, is known as the

Kaaba. It is clothed in a black shroud. That custom also originates

from the days when it was thought necessary to discourage its recapture

by camouflaging it.

According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, the Kaaba has 360 images.

Traditional accounts mention that one of the deities among the 360

destroyed when the place was stormed, was that of Saturn; another was

of the Moon and yet another was one called Allah. That shows that in

the Kaaba the Arabs worshipped the nine planets in pre-Islamic days. In

India

the practice of 'Navagraha' puja, that is worship of the nine

planets, is still in vogue. Two of these nine are Saturn and Moon.

In India

the crescent moon is always painted across the forehead of the

Siva symbol. Since that symbol was associated with the Siva emblem in

Kaaba it came to be grafted on the flag of Islam.

Another Hindu tradition associated with the Kaaba is that of the sacred

stream Ganga (sacred waters of the Ganges

river). According to the

Hindu tradition Ganga is also inseparable from

the Shiva emblem as the

crescent moon. Wherever there is a Siva emblem, Ganga

must co-exist.

True to that association a sacred fount exists near the Kaaba. Its

water is held sacred because it has been traditionally regarded as

Ganga since pre-Islamic times (Zam-Zam water).

August 22, 2009

Muruga Saranam

Islamic History says that there were hundreds of idols inside the Kaba and all of them were removed by Prophet Mohammed as they did not believe in idol worship. they were not against worship but against idol worship as at that peiod many were praying to idols and smaller deities, than the Supreme God - The creator of this universe. Islamic Principle is very clear. God is only one and Supreme and He who created us only is worthy of worship. So what they were against was not against worshipping God but against worshipping idols. To some extent they were justified as people were indulging in any sort of worship otherthan Supreme God. Smaller deities, yakshas etc.. for smaller benefits were and are still prevalent in India. this is considered as a great sin in Islam. Worshipping other deities indirectly means one is making equivalent to God and also indirectly means God is incapable and needs help from other deities - this is the interpretation of this practise in Islam. Using Forms to pray to God is also considered sinful as you all may agree as per Hindu scriptures that, this gross human body of panchabhuthams and subtle body made of three (mind, intelligence and identity) are said to be the impurities applied on soul which is otherwise pure. Conditioning of Soul which is originally pure with impurities like gross physical body and subtle mental bodies (subtle body is said to be carried with the person through subsequent births and hence his tendencies and karma are also carried) makes one think that the world of Maya is real. The target of living person is to transcend this Maya, understand that it is unreal and realize God within us. As per advitha this athma and Brhaman are one and same. Hence what is clear from this is that body is an impurity added to the Pure Soul. Soul is immersed (sorry for inaccurate statement - unable to explain well) in Maya due to impurity from body and mind. If one views from this point attaching Form, Body and attributes to God are sinful. I don't think either side is going to realize this great truth explained by saints time and again. One side believes that attaching forms to God and seeing him in human form is sinful. Other side has enough reasons and authority from revealed scriptures in their support which the semetic religions like islam, christianity etc... refuse to see. I won't say they don't understand but refuse to see or understand. Yet another major portion of Hindus still worship smaller deities either in allowed ways through scriptures (like paying our dues to demigods appointed by God for running fo the world through festivals) or the worser side worshipping deities not worthy of worship as Supreme God.

In my understanding, in the land of Arabia they were not worshipping Supreme God through idols like us in Hinduism, but were worshipping the idols as stones or smaller deities for non eternal trivial benefits. In this context, it was good by Prophet Mohammed who brought properly defined religion and sanity to the land of Arabia. Stricter interpretations and extreme behaviour by its followers make it a lot debatable.

I think with remote conections to what is mentioned in this mail we should not come to conculsions and take up unfruitful debates. We shouldn't be lost in ideas that may not have truth or depend on fragile evidences. Even otherwise wasting time of bitter thoughts is not very healthy for us - however hard they try to provoke us with arguments. We should consider understanding what is rght to be more important than winning an argument.

Just my humble opinion on mails like these on Kaba or Taj Mahal. You would find them circulating with more vigour on the internet, but in my opinion they don't do any good for us.

muruga saranamVetrivel Muruganukkku Arohara

With Best RegardsMeyyappan S

s

On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 5:06 PM, samuraigokhale <samuraigokhale wrote:

Muruga Saranam.

Dear Group members,

Here I came with one of the wonderful article which I read in danielpipes.org submitted by Mr. Rama from UAE. I have pasted that article below this message for the sake of our Group member. I hope it will be helpful and informative to our members.

Thanks/Regards,

Deve anand gokhale.R

_________________________

Islam and Quran is only a ConceptReader comment on item: [The Issue of Compulsion in Religion:] Islam is What Its Followers Make of It

in response to reader comment: A True Muslim

Submitted by Rama (United Arab Emirates), Oct 2, 2006 at 09:26

I refer to the recent debate with Dr.Naik who is also a well learned man from Islamic literature. I have seen him on television many occassion abusing Hindu Dharma and also he referred on many occassion critizing Hindu way of prayers. I felt little annoyed and thought to myself that someone who is well learned about Hindu Dharma to have a debate and explain Dr.Naik and open his safety vault of knowledge and pour in correct information about Hindu Dharma.

The opportunity came when Sri Sri was to explain the real meaning of HINDU DHARMA and specially Sanathana Dharma. First of all we must all understand that HINDU religion was a name given only for recognition with other religion. Before the birth of various religion like Buddhism, Sikkisim, Judaisim, Christianity, Islam etc there was only one method of living and practicising life called by its name Sanathana Dharma and its also called PURE INTELLEGANCE or PURUSHA /BRAHMA/ etc there is no particular date of birth of Sanathana Dharma. Whereas all other religion has a era that is date of birth. Islam came year 1500 , christianity came year 2000 etc. The highest truth is anything that has begining has an end and anything that takes birth has to die. Whereas SANATHANA DHARMA never born there is no date of birth and no body can put an era to it..so this SANATHANA DHARMA will never die. As explained in ISA VASYAM UPANISHAD..

Verse 4, 5, and 8 describe the nature of Self as:

Self is One, unmoving, and faster than the mind. The senses cannot overtake It, since It is already there when we try to reach it. Only all-pervasive, stationary, and infinite entity (Absolute Consciousness) can qualify to become the Self. Such Self can be described as, " That moves and that does not move; that is far off and that is very near; that is inside all this and that is also outside all this. " That has no begining and that has no end "

Kaaba a Hindu Temple?[Note: A recent archeological find in Kuwait unearthed a gold-platedstatue of the Hindu deity Ganesh. A Muslim resident of Kuwait requested

historical research material that can help explain the connectionbetween Hindu civilisation and Arabia.]

Was the Kaaba Originally a Hindu Temple?By P.N. Oak (Historian)

Glancing through some research material recently, I was pleasantlysurprised to come across a reference to a king Vikramaditya inscription

found in the Kaaba in Mecca proving beyond doubt that the ArabianPeninsula formed a part of his Indian Empire.

The text of the crucial Vikramaditya inscription, found inscribed on agold dish hung inside the Kaaba shrine in Mecca, is found recorded on

page 315 of a volume known as 'Sayar-ul-Okul' treasured in theMakhtab-e-Sultania library in Istanbul, Turkey. Rendered in freeEnglish the inscription says:

" Fortunate are those who were born (and lived) during king Vikram'sreign. He was a noble, generous dutiful ruler, devoted to the welfare

of his subjects. But at that time we Arabs, oblivious of God, were lostin sensual pleasures. Plotting and torture were rampant. The darknessof ignorance had enveloped our country. Like the lamb struggling forher life in the cruel paws of a wolf we Arabs were caught up in

ignorance. The entire country was enveloped in a darkness so intense ason a new moon night. But the present dawn and pleasant sunshine ofeducation is the result of the favour of the noble king Vikramadityawhose benevolent supervision did not lose sight of us- foreigners as we

were. He spread his sacred religion amongst us and sent scholars whosebrilliance shone like that of the sun from his country to ours. Thesescholars and preceptors through whose benevolence we were once againmade cognisant of the presence of God, introduced to His sacred

existence and put on the road of Truth, had come to our country topreach their religion and impart education at king Vikramaditya'sbehest. "

For those who would like to read the Arabic wording I reproduce ithereunder in Roman script:

" Itrashaphai Santu Ibikramatul Phahalameen Karimun YartapheehaWayosassaru Bihillahaya Samaini Ela Motakabberen Sihillaha Yuhee Quid

min howa Yapakhara phajjal asari nahone osirom bayjayhalem. Yundanblabin Kajan blnaya khtoryaha sadunya kanateph netephi bejehalinAtadari bilamasa- rateen phakef tasabuhu kaunnieja majekaralhadawalador. As hmiman burukankad toluho watastaru hihila Yakajibaymana

balay kulk amarena phaneya jaunabilamary Bikramatum " .

(Page 315 Sayar-ul-okul).

[Note: The title 'Saya-ul-okul' signifies memorable words.]

A careful analysis of the above inscription enables us to draw thefollowing conclusions:

That the ancient Indian empires may have extended up to the easternboundaries of Arabia until Vikramaditya and that it was he who for the

first time conquered Arabia. Because the inscription says that kingVikram who dispelled the darkness of ignorance from Arabia.That, whatever their earlier faith, King Vikrama's preachers hadsucceeded in spreading the Vedic (based on the Vedas, the Hindu sacred

scriptures)) way of life in Arabia.That the knowledge of Indian arts and sciences was imparted by Indiansto the Arabs directly by founding schools, academies and culturalcentres. The belief, therefore, that visiting Arabs conveyed that

knowledge to their own lands through their own indefatigable effortsand scholarship is unfounded.An ancillary conclusion could be that the so-called Kutub Minar (inDelhi, India) could well be king Vikramadiya's tower commemorating

his conquest of Arabia. This conclusion is strengthened by twopointers. Firstly, the inscription on the iron pillar near theso-called Kutub Minar refers to the marriage of the victorious kingVikramaditya to the princess of Balhika. This Balhika is none other

than the Balkh region in West Asia. It could be that Arabia waswrestled by king Vikramaditya from the ruler of Balkh who concluded atreaty by giving his daughter in marriage to the victor. Secondly, thetownship adjoining the so called Kutub Minar is named Mehrauli after

Mihira who was the renowned astronomer-mathematician of king Vikram'scourt. Mehrauli is the corrupt form of Sanskrit 'Mihira-Awali'signifying a row of houses raised for Mihira and his helpers andassistants working on astronomical observations made from the tower.

Having seen the far reaching and history shaking implications of theArabic inscription concerning king Vikrama, we shall now piece together

the story of its find. How it came to be recorded and hung in the Kaabain Mecca. What are the other proofs reinforcing the belief that Arabswere once followers of the Indian Vedic way of life and thattranquillity and education were ushered into Arabia by king

Vikramaditya's scholars, educationists from an uneasy period of " ignorance and turmoil " mentioned in the inscription.

In Istanbul, Turkey, there is a famous library calledMakhatab-e-Sultania, which is reputed to have the largest collection ofancient West Asian literature. In the Arabic section of that library is

an anthology of ancient Arabic poetry. That anthology was compiled froman earlier work in A.D. 1742 under the orders of the Turkish rulerSultan Salim.

The pages of that volume are of Hareer - a kind of silk used forwriting on. Each page has a decorative gilded border. That anthology is

known as Sayar-ul-Okul. It is divided into three parts. The first partcontains biographic details and the poetic compositions of pre-IslamicArabian poets. The second part embodies accounts and verses of poets of

the period beginning just after prophet Mohammad's times, up to theend of the Banee-Um-Mayya dynasty. The third part deals with laterpoets up to the end of Khalif Harun-al-Rashid's times.

Abu Amir Asamai, an Arabian bard who was the poet Laureate ofHarun-al-Rashid's court, has compiled and edited the anthology.

The first modern edition of 'Sayar-ul-Okul' was printed andpublished in Berlin in 1864. A subsequent edition is the one published

in Beirut in 1932.

The collection is regarded as the most important and authoritativeanthology of ancient Arabic poetry. It throws considerable light on the

social life, customs, manners and entertainment modes of ancientArabia. The book also contains an elaborate description of the ancientshrine of Mecca, the town and the annual fair known as OKAJ which usedto be held every year around the Kaaba temple in Mecca. This should

convince readers that the annual haj of the Muslims to the Kaaba is ofearlier pre-Islamic congregation.

But the OKAJ fair was far from a carnival. It provided a forum for theelite and the learned to discuss the social, religious, political,

literary and other aspects of the Vedic culture then pervading Arabia.'Sayar-ul-Okul' asserts that the conclusion reached at thosediscussions were widely respected throughout Arabia. Mecca, therefore,followed the Varanasi tradition (of India) of providing a venue for

important discussions among the learned while the masses congregatedthere for spiritual bliss. The principal shrines at both Varanasi inIndia and at Mecca in Arvasthan (Arabia) were Siva temples. Even tothis day ancient Mahadev (Siva) emblems can be seen. It is the Shankara

(Siva) stone that Muslim pilgrims reverently touch and kiss in theKaaba.

Arabic tradition has lost trace of the founding of the Kaaba temple.The discovery of the Vikramaditya inscription affords a clue. King

Vikramaditya is known for his great devotion to Lord Mahadev (Siva). AtUjjain (India), the capital of Vikramaditya, exists the famous shrineof Mahankal, i.e., of Lord Shankara (Siva) associated withVikramaditya. Since according to the Vikramaditya inscription he spread

the Vedic religion, who else but he could have founded the Kaaba templein Mecca?

A few miles away from Mecca is a big signboard which bars the entry ofany non-Muslim into the area. This is a reminder of the days when the

Kaaba was stormed and captured solely for the newly established faithof Islam. The object in barring entry of non-Muslims was obviously toprevent its recapture.

As the pilgrim proceeds towards Mecca he is asked to shave his head andbeard and to don special sacred attire that consists of two seamless

sheets of white cloth. One is to be worn round the waist and the otherover the shoulders. Both these rites are remnants of the old Vedicpractice of entering Hindu temples clean- and with holy seamless whitesheets.

The main shrine in Mecca, which houses the Siva emblem, is known as theKaaba. It is clothed in a black shroud. That custom also originates

from the days when it was thought necessary to discourage its recaptureby camouflaging it.

According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, the Kaaba has 360 images.Traditional accounts mention that one of the deities among the 360

destroyed when the place was stormed, was that of Saturn; another wasof the Moon and yet another was one called Allah. That shows that inthe Kaaba the Arabs worshipped the nine planets in pre-Islamic days. InIndia the practice of 'Navagraha' puja, that is worship of the nine

planets, is still in vogue. Two of these nine are Saturn and Moon.

In India the crescent moon is always painted across the forehead of theSiva symbol. Since that symbol was associated with the Siva emblem in

Kaaba it came to be grafted on the flag of Islam.

Another Hindu tradition associated with the Kaaba is that of the sacredstream Ganga (sacred waters of the Ganges river). According to the

Hindu tradition Ganga is also inseparable from the Shiva emblem as thecrescent moon. Wherever there is a Siva emblem, Ganga must co-exist.True to that association a sacred fount exists near the Kaaba. Itswater is held sacred because it has been traditionally regarded as

Ganga since pre-Islamic times (Zam-Zam water).

August 22, 2009

WHile worshipping lesser gods, demi-gods like yakshas etc. is NOT A SIN per-se, it does not yeild any long-lasting results, atleast in the view of the Purvacharyas.Strictly speaking - do did not 'create' the universe. This is a oxymoron concept, however, theoretically and technically speaking there is no 'creation', for what we call 'God' in English, which is but a crude way of representing the Supreme Atman, is pure sat - and that devoid of it is asat - or to be precise the reflection of the Atman shrouded in Maya is asat. In reality Asat does not exist - since it is only but a reflection of the Atman. Thus empirically there is no creation! This is testified by the Vedas also as Bhagavan Sri Adishankaracharya has expounded. Thus if there was a creation then, speaking on lines, one is worshipping a 'lesser deity' since creation will eventually dissolve. Thus the creator and his creation are prone to evolution, involution and finally destruction. Considering this aspect, the 'creator' is not much different from 'man' since even man's creation undergoes the afformentioned proccesses. If time were taken as a consideration, then even considering the relative superiority of the creation - it still does not testify as to how the creator is supreme ?

In the puranas,Â Brahma is Extolled/worshipped not becasue he is just the creator - this must be verywell understood. Brahma is the father or progenator of the Prajapatis who inturn are the progenators of Manu(s) who inturn progenated the human race. That being the case, in a way he is an Ancestor for all mankind, a divine ancestor. Besides, Brahma was initiated into Divine Knowledge of the Supreme Truth by Lord VIshnu. ANd thus he is worshipped being the father, but more importantly for his possessing divine and supreme knowledge of the Self-efflugent Atman.

If Idol worship is condemned, then how is that they substantiate their path of spirituality. It is a universal phenomenon, that all but the greatest of Yogis cannot comprehend anything beyond spatial dimensions, which is primarily caused due to ignorance. The limitation of the mind is the primary cause, which arises out of ignorance. So speaking, when the ordinary mind is tuned to think interms of dimensions, how is that one will ever be able to comprehend something which is out of the realm of spatial dimesions, one which has no form ?

For want of time, I will continue this in my next mail....Regards,R. ÅšivarÄmaká¹›á¹£á¹‡a ÅšarmÄ|| Tiruchitrambalam ||

2009/8/22 S Meyyappan <smeyyappan

Â

Muruga Saranam

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Islamic History says that there were hundreds of idols inside the Kaba and all of them were removed by Prophet Mohammed as they did not believe in idol worship. they were not against worship but against idol worship as at that peiod many were praying to idols and smaller deities, than the Supreme God - The creator of this universe. Islamic Principle is very clear. God is only one and Supreme and He who created us only is worthy of worship. So what they were against was not against worshipping God but against worshipping idols. To some extent they were justified as people were indulging in any sort of worship otherthan Supreme God. Smaller deities, yakshas etc.. for smaller benefits were and are still prevalent in India. this is considered as a great sin in Islam. Worshipping other deities indirectly means one is making equivalent to God and alsoÂ indirectly means God is incapable and needs help from other deities - this is the interpretation of this practise in Islam. Using Forms to pray to God is also considered sinful as you all may agree as per Hindu scriptures that, this gross human body of panchabhuthams and subtle body made of three (mind, intelligence and identity) are said to be the impurities applied on soul which is otherwise pure. Conditioning of Soul which is originally pure with impurities like gross physical body and subtle mental bodies (subtle body is said to be carried with the person through subsequent births and hence his tendencies and karma are also carried) makesÂ one think that the world of Maya is real. The target of living person is to transcend this Maya, understand that it is unreal and realize God within us. As per advitha this athma and Brhaman are one and same. Hence what is clear from this is that body is an impurity added to the Pure Soul. Soul is immersed (sorry for inaccurate statement - unable to explain well) in Maya due to impurity from body and mind. If one views from this point attaching Form, Body and attributes to God are sinful. I don't think either side is going to realize this great truth explained by saints time and again. One side believes that attaching forms to God and seeing him in human form is sinful. Other side has enough reasons and authority from revealed scriptures in their support which the semetic religions like islam, christianity etc... refuse to see. I won't say they don't understand but refuse to see or understand. Yet another major portion of Hindus still worship smaller deities either in allowed ways through scriptures (like paying our dues to demigods appointed by God for running fo the world through festivals) or the worser side worshipping deities not worthy of worship as Supreme God.

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In my understanding, in the land of Arabia they were not worshipping Supreme God through idols like us in Hinduism, but were worshipping the idols as stones or smaller deities for non eternal trivial benefits. In this context, it was good by Prophet Mohammed who brought properly defined religion and sanity to the land of Arabia. Stricter interpretations and extreme behaviour by its followers make it a lot debatable.

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I think with remote conections to what is mentioned in this mail we should not come to conculsions and take up unfruitful debates. We shouldn't be lost in ideas that may not have truth or depend on fragile evidences. Even otherwise wasting time of bitter thoughts is not very healthy for us - however hard they try to provoke us with arguments. We should consider understanding what is rght to be more important than winning an argument.

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Just my humble opinion on mails like these on Kaba or Taj Mahal. You would find them circulating with more vigour on the internet, but in my opinionÂ they don't do any good for us.

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muruga saranamVetrivel Muruganukkku Arohara

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With Best RegardsMeyyappan S

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On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 5:06 PM, samuraigokhale <samuraigokhale wrote:

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Muruga Saranam.

Dear Group members,

Here I came with one of the wonderful article which I read in danielpipes.org submitted by Mr. Rama from UAE. Â I have pasted that article below this message for the sake of our Group member. Â I hope it will be helpful and informative to our members.

Thanks/Regards,

Deve anand gokhale.R

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Islam and Quran is only a ConceptReader comment on item:Â [The Issue of Compulsion in Religion:] Islam is What Its Followers Make of It

in response to reader comment:Â A True Muslim

Submitted byÂ RamaÂ (United Arab Emirates), Oct 2, 2006Â atÂ 09:26

I refer to the recent debate with Dr.Naik who is also a well learned man from Islamic literature. I have seen him on television many occassion abusing Hindu Dharma and also he referred on many occassion critizing Hindu way of prayers. I felt little annoyed and thought to myself that someone who is well learned about Hindu Dharma to have a debate and explain Dr.Naik and open his safety vault of knowledge and pour in correct information about Hindu Dharma.

The opportunity came when Sri Sri was to explain the real meaning of HINDU DHARMA and specially Sanathana Dharma. First of all we must all understand that HINDU religion was a name given only for recognition with other religion. Before the birth of various religion like Buddhism, Sikkisim, Judaisim, Christianity, Islam etc there was only one method of living and practicising life called by its name Sanathana Dharma and its also called PURE INTELLEGANCE or PURUSHA /BRAHMA/ etc there is no particular date of birth of Sanathana Dharma. Whereas all other religion has a era that is date of birth. Islam came year 1500 , christianity came year 2000 etc. The highest truth is anything that has begining has an end and anything that takes birth has to die. Whereas SANATHANA DHARMA never born there is no date of birth and no body can put an era to it..so this SANATHANA DHARMA will never die. As explained in ISA VASYAM UPANISHAD..

Verse 4, 5, and 8 describe the nature of Self as:Â