Spiritual Teacher is not Equal to Lord Krishna .

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends ,

Chaitanya Caritamruta was not written by Lord Caitanya , but His Disciples . By the term Spiritual Master they mean Lord Caitanya and not ordinary Spiritual Teachers .

In the case of Advaitia philosophy , their Disciples are worshipping own sectarian Gurus as Gods . However, Lord Krishna's devotees worship only Krishna as God . Of course , the knowledge giving Teacher is treated with utmost respect , but he is not worshipped as God .

Let us look in to the case of Dhruva and Prahlada two of the greatest Krishna-devotees . Both of them were initiated into Vaishnavism by Narada-muni . However , after attaining the basic knowledge , both Dhruva and Prahlada focused their worship entirely on Lord Narayana , the Supreme God . Narada Muni on his part was very happy to see their Devotion and never came between them and Lord Narayana .

I do agree that , Lord Caitanya was an incarnation of Lord Krishna and therefore , He deserved worship . However , Lord Caitanya never revealed His true identity and He always urged everyone to worship Krishna alone and not Himself . Divine personalities are utmost careful in their speech and work . They know very well that any scope for misinterpretation will be misused by their lesser successors .

A classic example is in ISKCON Cult . They started this practice of exalted worship to " Spiritual Master " ( their version of Guru) as equal to God . Prabhupada Maharaja was a great Sannyasi and therefore such worship didn't affect him . However , continuous receipt of such exalted worship practically corrupted Prabhupada Maharaja's successor Spiritual Teachers . Upon receiving such undue worship and exalted positions , they started considering themselves as equal to Krishna . And such mental imbalance led them to more and more problems . In a very short time , it practically undermined ISKCON by making it bankrupt .

My humble request to ISKCON followers is not to harm their organization further by quoting Krishna's devotional books out of context to boost up the image of "ISKCON Spiritual Teachers " . They are Spiritual Teachers and not Spiritual Masters or Lord Krishna .

Thanks and Regards,

Narayanadas

 

, Sanjeev Punj <punjsanjeev wrote:>> krishnabhaktas: harekrishnaaa: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 07:39:54 -0700[Hare Krishna] Why should we not foolishly discriminate ? Sudhaa Bindu : 848> > > > > > Topic : Guru> > Why should we> not foolishly discriminate ?> > Our only shelter is Supreme Lord, and one who teaches how to approach Krishna is the functioning form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme Lord and the initiating and instructing spiritual master. If one foolishly discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge of devotional service.> > Chaitanya Charithaamrutha, Adi Leela, 1.47> > ____________________> > > > > > > > _______________> Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power.> http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct>

[Guest guest]

General statements like calling ISKCON a cult, can mislead the

readers. ISKCON ahs been in the forefront of a spiritual revolution

worldwide. You cannot dismiss the work done by Srila Prabhupada in a

few sentences.Srila Prabhupada was never worshipped in a way Krishna

is worshipped, they simply chant enthusiastically before Srila

Prabhupada's statue, and sometimes they carry it (the statue) around

in ecstacy, that is a feeling of devotion for the Guru, and it is not

equal to worship of Krishna, cannot be equated, ever.

As for your statement that Srila prabhupada's disciples or

followers have become corrupted due to some exalted worship, can you

give a tanginle example instead of making a general statement? You

are also stating that ISKCON is bankrupt, on what basis? Have you

examined their accounts? Please refrain from making vague and general

comments on ISKCON. Millions of devotees worldwide are reaping the

benefits of chanting Harinaama and this is due to the work done by

Srila Prabhupada's followers and disciples.

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

, " narayana_das77 "

<narayana_das77 wrote:

>

>

> Dear Friends ,

>

> Chaitanya Caritamruta was not written by Lord Caitanya , but His

> Disciples . By the term Spiritual Master they mean Lord Caitanya

and

> not ordinary Spiritual Teachers .

>

> In the case of Advaitia philosophy , their Disciples are

worshipping own

> sectarian Gurus as Gods . However, Lord Krishna's devotees worship

> only Krishna as God . Of course , the knowledge giving Teacher is

> treated with utmost respect , but he is not worshipped as God .

>

> Let us look in to the case of Dhruva and Prahlada two of the

greatest

> Krishna-devotees . Both of them were initiated into Vaishnavism by

> Narada-muni . However , after attaining the basic knowledge , both

> Dhruva and Prahlada focused their worship entirely on Lord

Narayana ,

> the Supreme God . Narada Muni on his part was very happy to see

their

> Devotion and never came between them and Lord Narayana .

>

> I do agree that , Lord Caitanya was an incarnation of Lord Krishna

and

> therefore , He deserved worship . However , Lord Caitanya never

revealed

> His true identity and He always urged everyone to worship Krishna

alone

> and not Himself . Divine personalities are utmost careful in their

> speech and work . They know very well that any scope for

> misinterpretation will be misused by their lesser successors .

>

> A classic example is in ISKCON Cult . They started this practice of

> exalted worship to " Spiritual Master " ( their version of

> Guru) as equal to God . Prabhupada Maharaja was a great Sannyasi and

> therefore such worship didn't affect him . However , continuous

> receipt of such exalted worship practically corrupted Prabhupada

> Maharaja's successor Spiritual Teachers . Upon receiving such undue

> worship and exalted positions , they started considering themselves

as

> equal to Krishna . And such mental imbalance led them to more and

more

> problems . In a very short time , it practically undermined

ISKCON by

> making it bankrupt .

>

> My humble request to ISKCON followers is not to harm their

organization

> further by quoting Krishna's devotional books out of context to

> boost up the image of " ISKCON Spiritual Teachers " . They are

> Spiritual Teachers and not Spiritual Masters or Lord Krishna .

>

> Thanks and Regards,

>

> Narayanadas

>

>

>

> , Sanjeev Punj <punjsanjeev@>

> wrote:

> >

> > krishnabhaktas@: harekrishnaaa@: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 07:39:54

> -0700[Hare Krishna] Why should we not foolishly

discriminate ?

> Sudhaa Bindu : 848

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Topic : Guru

> >

> > Why should we

> > not foolishly discriminate ?

> >

> > Our only shelter is Supreme Lord, and one who teaches how to

approach

> Krishna is the functioning form of the Supreme Personality of

Godhead.

> There is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme Lord and

the

> initiating and instructing spiritual master. If one foolishly

> discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge

of

> devotional service.

> >

> > Chaitanya Charithaamrutha, Adi Leela, 1.47

> >

> > ____________________

> >

Tired

> of spam? Mail has the best spam protection around

>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > _______________

> > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word

scramble

> challenge with star power.

> >

> http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?

icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_o\

> ct

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends ,

My statement on the above subject was just a response to the "out of context" Quote : "There is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme Lord and the initiating and instructing Spiritual Master. If one foolishly discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge of devotional service ".

This is exactly what the new generation ISKCON teachers are " blowing out of proportion" . According to them " Whoever initiates You is Your "Spiritual Master" . And Your duty is to serve him throughout your life , since he is not different from Krsna".

On several occasions like "Vyasapuja" , the Teacher's birthday , His arrival at your place , Beginning of His new tours etc, etc , You will receive intimation from his Main Disciple urging " Donate money to "Gurudeva" who is non-different from Krsna OR His incarnation Vyasadeva " . For sure , the above reaches you in the Teacher's letter head or published in his personal website . Of course , a Disciple is duty bound to give Gurudakhina to his Teacher . However, on the Teacher's part , there is no need no do forcing or cajoling to extract maximum out of his disciple .

Christianity thrives on naked "Money Power" , whereas Vaishavism is rooted on "Bhakti" ( devotion ) . Lord Krishna is not at all materialistic , but 100% Spiritual . What matters to Him is Bhakti and not the money you donate . Of course , necessary money required for His genuine service, automatically comes from His Servants who are ever willing to do anything for their beloved Lord .

What the Lord dislikes is misuse of Funds gathered for His service . ISKCON had mobilized Crores from their followers and well wishers , promising to use the money for Krishna's service . But , when it's certain immature " Leaders " got themselves embroiled in Criminal cases , the compensation was paid from the sacred Funds and not from the bulky "Pockets" of those responsible for the crimes . The lesson learned from this is, not to give the "Spiritual TeachersExalted Positions Equal to Krishna" OR Pump in Extra funds into their personal Coffers . As Spirituals , they are above materialism and their normal expenses are born by ISKCON OR their Program sponsors.

Now , let me answer your " Points of Concern" :

ISKCON Cult

Cult is defined " System of religious worship ; Worship of Person or thing " .

Krishna Consciousness is the worship of Krsna , the Supreme Personality of Godhead . So , initially ISKCON called itself a "Cult " . And to many like us, there is nothing objectionable about that . There is no other single word in English that means " Worship of one Favorite Deity " .

Later, when the cases came up against it , the " Cult" became a liability to ISKCON . And it stopped mentioning Self a "Cult" .

People like me use the word "Cult" in respect only . For sure , I respect ISKCON and Prabhupada Maharaja for their yeomen service to spread Krishna consciousness all over the world .

However , I don't agree with the Deity worship of past or present Spiritual Teachers ; Especially , offering Arati , Food , and other Paraphernalia to the Deity of Teacher as equal to Lord Krishna .

Corruption Due to Exalted Worship

What I mentioned in this regard, are mere excerpts from Tamal Krishna Goswamy's book " The Perils of Succession ; Heresies of Authority and Continuity in Hare Krishna Movement " . In this book , Goswamy describes how , exalted worship corrupted many post Prabhupada-era Spiritual Teachers of ISKCON ; and how they found it difficult to differentiate between Personal and Impersonal forms of Krishna .

Financial Crises in ISKCON

Here I made a mistake . I should have mentioned " They ( Fallen Teachers in ISCKCON) made it " literally" bankrupt " .

I do agree that , ISKCON is not bankrupt , yet though it faces financial difficulties due to the astronomical sums being spent for the out of court settlements .

Relevance of ISKCON

Here too , I agree that , ISKCON is the pioneer international Forum to propagate Krishna Consciousness to all over the world .

To teach swimming , it is advisable to teach the kid first about the basics and then throw him in to shallow water . The teacher's hand will keep the student afloat .

Prabhupada Mahararaja was like this . He first taught the student on the basics of Krishna consciousness and then threw him in to the broad world giving a few books of Gita and Bhagavatam . Due to the Supreme Teacher Krishna's ever ready helping hand , he will survive from the sale of those books and thereafter from the cumulative spiritual power gained out of such selfless service to Lord Krishna and His Servants .

Please forgive me , if my words have offended any of you .

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare HareHare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

Narayanadas.

 

 

, "sanjeev" <punjsanjeev wrote:>> General statements like calling ISKCON a cult, can mislead the > readers. ISKCON ahs been in the forefront of a spiritual revolution > worldwide. You cannot dismiss the work done by Srila Prabhupada in a > few sentences.Srila Prabhupada was never worshipped in a way Krishna > is worshipped, they simply chant enthusiastically before Srila > Prabhupada's statue, and sometimes they carry it (the statue) around > in ecstacy, that is a feeling of devotion for the Guru, and it is not > equal to worship of Krishna, cannot be equated, ever.> As for your statement that Srila prabhupada's disciples or > followers have become corrupted due to some exalted worship, can you > give a tanginle example instead of making a general statement? You > are also stating that ISKCON is bankrupt, on what basis? Have you > examined their accounts? Please refrain from making vague and general > comments on ISKCON. Millions of devotees worldwide are reaping the > benefits of chanting Harinaama and this is due to the work done by > Srila Prabhupada's followers and disciples.> > All glories to Srila Prabhupada!> > , "narayana_das77" > narayana_das77@ wrote:> >> > > > Dear Friends ,> > > > Chaitanya Caritamruta was not written by Lord Caitanya , but His> > Disciples . By the term Spiritual Master they mean Lord Caitanya > and> > not ordinary Spiritual Teachers .> > > > In the case of Advaitia philosophy , their Disciples are > worshipping own> > sectarian Gurus as Gods . However, Lord Krishna's devotees worship> > only Krishna as God . Of course , the knowledge giving Teacher is> > treated with utmost respect , but he is not worshipped as God .> > > > Let us look in to the case of Dhruva and Prahlada two of the > greatest> > Krishna-devotees . Both of them were initiated into Vaishnavism by> > Narada-muni . However , after attaining the basic knowledge , both> > Dhruva and Prahlada focused their worship entirely on Lord > Narayana ,> > the Supreme God . Narada Muni on his part was very happy to see > their> > Devotion and never came between them and Lord Narayana .> > > > I do agree that , Lord Caitanya was an incarnation of Lord Krishna > and> > therefore , He deserved worship . However , Lord Caitanya never > revealed> > His true identity and He always urged everyone to worship Krishna > alone> > and not Himself . Divine personalities are utmost careful in their> > speech and work . They know very well that any scope for> > misinterpretation will be misused by their lesser successors .> > > > A classic example is in ISKCON Cult . They started this practice of> > exalted worship to " Spiritual Master " ( their version of> > Guru) as equal to God . Prabhupada Maharaja was a great Sannyasi and> > therefore such worship didn't affect him . However , continuous> > receipt of such exalted worship practically corrupted Prabhupada> > Maharaja's successor Spiritual Teachers . Upon receiving such undue> > worship and exalted positions , they started considering themselves > as> > equal to Krishna . And such mental imbalance led them to more and > more> > problems . In a very short time , it practically undermined > ISKCON by> > making it bankrupt .> > > > My humble request to ISKCON followers is not to harm their > organization> > further by quoting Krishna's devotional books out of context to> > boost up the image of "ISKCON Spiritual Teachers " . They are> > Spiritual Teachers and not Spiritual Masters or Lord Krishna .> > > > Thanks and Regards,> > > > Narayanadas> > > > > > > > , Sanjeev Punj <punjsanjeev@>> > wrote:> > >> > > krishnabhaktas@: harekrishnaaa@: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 07:39:54> > -0700[Hare Krishna] Why should we not foolishly > discriminate ?> > Sudhaa Bindu : 848> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Topic : Guru> > >> > > Why should we> > > not foolishly discriminate ?> > >> > > Our only shelter is Supreme Lord, and one who teaches how to > approach> > Krishna is the functioning form of the Supreme Personality of > Godhead.> > There is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme Lord and > the> > initiating and instructing spiritual master. If one foolishly> > discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge > of> > devotional service.> > >> > > Chaitanya Charithaamrutha, Adi Leela, 1.47> > >> > > ____________________> > > > Tired> > of spam? Mail has the best spam protection around> > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > _______________> > > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word > scramble> > challenge with star power.> > >> > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?> icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_o\> > ct> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Narayanadas Ji,

 

Hari Om!

 

It does not suit you to criticize anyone who is helping spread Krishna's name. This world is full of imperfect individuals(ISKCON or Non-ISKCON). I am still waiting to meet a perfect person.

 

If you feel the same as I do, then why do you criticize anyone or any organization that tries to promote any part of Sanatan Dharma. There is no shortage of people in the World who criticize our religion. Do you have to add yourself into that line. There are people/companies abusing our respected deities by printing on sandals, underwear etc. (and they do not have Christian or Islamic figures at the same place). When sued, they will apologize and mean while get extra media attention for free resulting in financial gains. Similar action is taken by others and the history keeps repeating. I suggest, if you are concerned to improve the World, then this would provide you the proper focus (to eliminate/reduce such disrespect). You may not be aware of some of the characters of preachers in the church and just about all the religions. ISKCON problems compared to that are not that serious.

 

We all may agree with some of your concerns, but the ISKCON problems were due to handful of individuals (who were converted western people to begin with). I have seen that majority of individuals have one mission, that is to chant Hare Krishna - the magic words. Just like other branches of religion, they are also a branch of Hindu Religion (and not all of it).

 

Western people (mainly from Christian Religion) try to play with the minds of Hindu Believers. When they see that ISKCON is progressing in the World, they call it a cult. Because it does not serve their belief systems. Just by labeling cult, they can insult the organization and pretending that they are not insulting a major religion. When British came to India (to rule) their main mission was to Bankrupt the richest country on earth (at that time), and also to spread their religion. Slowly they convinced the Hindu Public that everything that HIndus believe, is a Myth. Ramayan is a Myth, Mahabharat is a Myth, Rama and Krishna both are mythological figures to such extent that even today when famous Hindu Speakers visit USA, they proudly speak, "According to Hindu Mythology, Krishna did.....". They do not understand that the country is free of British control and they need to free their mind and start believing in what they have been told by their ancestors (Saints and Sages) and not the British. They pushed their false theory of Aryan Migration (some British came up with a dream without and evidence). With this theory, the Europeans can take credit of all our Sanskrit literatures including four Vedas and Upanishads. Have you ever heard anyone talking about Christian Mythology, or Islamic Mythology? Also, have you ever read in Sanskrit in any of the books that Ramayan and Mahabharat were Myth? School books in California were influenced by non Hindus to write a chapter on Hindu Religion, ignoring inputs from real Hindus. Winning in court does not fix the errors that have been printed. Malaysia and Pakistan is systematically destroying all the Hindu Temples.

 

Hence, Narayan Ji, there is no shortage of people to check/destroy/eliminate Hindu Dharma. I suggest you change your outlook.

 

With Best Regards,

- Jagdish

 

 

 

 

-

narayana_das77

Saturday, November 03, 2007 10:28 PM

Re: Spiritual Teacher is not Equal to Lord Krishna .

 

 

 

Dear Friends ,

My statement on the above subject was just a response to the "out of context" Quote : "There is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme Lord and the initiating and instructing Spiritual Master. If one foolishly discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge of devotional service ".

This is exactly what the new generation ISKCON teachers are " blowing out of proportion" . According to them " Whoever initiates You is Your "Spiritual Master" . And Your duty is to serve him throughout your life , since he is not different from Krsna".

On several occasions like "Vyasapuja" , the Teacher's birthday , His arrival at your place , Beginning of His new tours etc, etc , You will receive intimation from his Main Disciple urging " Donate money to "Gurudeva" who is non-different from Krsna OR His incarnation Vyasadeva " . For sure , the above reaches you in the Teacher's letter head or published in his personal website . Of course , a Disciple is duty bound to give Gurudakhina to his Teacher . However, on the Teacher's part , there is no need no do forcing or cajoling to extract maximum out of his disciple .

Christianity thrives on naked "Money Power" , whereas Vaishavism is rooted on "Bhakti" ( devotion ) . Lord Krishna is not at all materialistic , but 100% Spiritual . What matters to Him is Bhakti and not the money you donate . Of course , necessary money required for His genuine service, automatically comes from His Servants who are ever willing to do anything for their beloved Lord .

What the Lord dislikes is misuse of Funds gathered for His service . ISKCON had mobilized Crores from their followers and well wishers , promising to use the money for Krishna's service . But , when it's certain immature " Leaders " got themselves embroiled in Criminal cases , the compensation was paid from the sacred Funds and not from the bulky "Pockets" of those responsible for the crimes . The lesson learned from this is, not to give the "Spiritual TeachersExalted Positions Equal to Krishna" OR Pump in Extra funds into their personal Coffers . As Spirituals , they are above materialism and their normal expenses are born by ISKCON OR their Program sponsors.

Now , let me answer your " Points of Concern" :

ISKCON Cult

Cult is defined " System of religious worship ; Worship of Person or thing " .

Krishna Consciousness is the worship of Krsna , the Supreme Personality of Godhead . So , initially ISKCON called itself a "Cult " . And to many like us, there is nothing objectionable about that . There is no other single word in English that means " Worship of one Favorite Deity " .

Later, when the cases came up against it , the " Cult" became a liability to ISKCON And it stopped mentioning Self a "Cult" .

People like me use the word "Cult" in respect only . For sure , I respect ISKCON and Prabhupada Maharaja for their yeomen service to spread Krishna consciousness all over the world .

However , I don't agree with the Deity worship of past or present Spiritual Teachers ; Especially , offering Arati , Food , and other Paraphernalia to the Deity of Teacher as equal to Lord Krishna .

Corruption Due to Exalted Worship

What I mentioned in this regard, are mere excerpts from Tamal Krishna Goswamy's book " The Perils of Succession ; Heresies of Authority and Continuity in Hare Krishna Movement " . In this book , Goswamy describes how , exalted worship corrupted many post Prabhupada-era Spiritual Teachers of ISKCON ; and how they found it difficult to differentiate between Personal and Impersonal forms of Krishna .

Financial Crises in ISKCON

Here I made a mistake . I should have mentioned " They ( Fallen Teachers in ISCKCON) made it " literally" bankrupt " .

I do agree that , ISKCON is not bankrupt , yet though it faces financial difficulties due to the astronomical sums being spent for the out of court settlements .

Relevance of ISKCON

Here too , I agree that , ISKCON is the pioneer international Forum to propagate Krishna Consciousness to all over the world .

To teach swimming , it is advisable to teach the kid first about the basics and then throw him in to shallow water . The teacher's hand will keep the student afloat .

Prabhupada Mahararaja was like this . He first taught the student on the basics of Krishna consciousness and then threw him in to the broad world giving a few books of Gita and Bhagavatam . Due to the Supreme Teacher Krishna's ever ready helping hand , he will survive from the sale of those books and thereafter from the cumulative spiritual power gained out of such selfless service to Lord Krishna and His Servants .

Please forgive me , if my words have offended any of you

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare HareHare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

Narayanadas.

 

 

, "sanjeev" <punjsanjeev wrote:>> General statements like calling ISKCON a cult, can mislead the > readers. ISKCON ahs been in the forefront of a spiritual revolution > worldwide. You cannot dismiss the work done by Srila Prabhupada in a > few sentences.Srila Prabhupada was never worshipped in a way Krishna > is worshipped, they simply chant enthusiastically before Srila > Prabhupada's statue, and sometimes they carry it (the statue) around > in ecstacy, that is a feeling of devotion for the Guru, and it is not > equal to worship of Krishna, cannot be equated, ever.> As for your statement that Srila prabhupada's disciples or > followers have become corrupted due to some exalted worship, can you > give a tanginle example instead of making a general statement? You > are also stating that ISKCON is bankrupt, on what basis? Have you > examined their accounts? Please refrain from making vague and general > comments on ISKCON. Millions of devotees worldwide are reaping the > benefits of chanting Harinaama and this is due to the work done by > Srila Prabhupada's followers and disciples.> > All glories to Srila Prabhupada!> > , "narayana_das77" > narayana_das77@ wrote:> >> > > > Dear Friends ,> > > > Chaitanya Caritamruta was not written by Lord Caitanya , but His> > Disciples . By the term Spiritual Master they mean Lord Caitanya > and> > not ordinary Spiritual Teachers .> > > > In the case of Advaitia philosophy , their Disciples are > worshipping own> > sectarian Gurus as Gods . However, Lord Krishna's devotees worship> > only Krishna as God . Of course , the knowledge giving Teacher is> > treated with utmost respect , but he is not worshipped as God .> > > > Let us look in to the case of Dhruva and Prahlada two of the > greatest> > Krishna-devotees . Both of them were initiated into Vaishnavism by> > Narada-muni . However , after attaining the basic knowledge , both> > Dhruva and Prahlada focused their worship entirely on Lord > Narayana ,> > the Supreme God . Narada Muni on his part was very happy to see > their> > Devotion and never came between them and Lord Narayana .> > > > I do agree that , Lord Caitanya was an incarnation of Lord Krishna > and> > therefore , He deserved worship . However , Lord Caitanya never > revealed> > His true identity and He always urged everyone to worship Krishna > alone> > and not Himself . Divine personalities are utmost careful in their> > speech and work . They know very well that any scope for> > misinterpretation will be misused by their lesser successors .> > > > A classic example is in ISKCON Cult . They started this practice of> > exalted worship to " Spiritual Master " ( their version of> > Guru) as equal to God . Prabhupada Maharaja was a great Sannyasi and> > therefore such worship didn't affect him . However , continuous> > receipt of such exalted worship practically corrupted Prabhupada> > Maharaja's successor Spiritual Teachers . Upon receiving such undue> > worship and exalted positions , they started considering themselves > as> > equal to Krishna . And such mental imbalance led them to more and > more> > problems . In a very short time , it practically undermined > ISKCON by> > making it bankrupt .> > > > My humble request to ISKCON followers is not to harm their > organization> > further by quoting Krishna's devotional books out of context to> > boost up the image of "ISKCON Spiritual Teachers " . They are> > Spiritual Teachers and not Spiritual Masters or Lord Krishna .> > > > Thanks and Regards,> > > > Narayanadas> > > > > > > > , Sanjeev Punj <punjsanjeev@>> > wrote:> > >> > > krishnabhaktas@: harekrishnaaa@: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 07:39:54> > -0700[Hare Krishna] Why should we not foolishly > discriminate ?> > Sudhaa Bindu : 848> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Topic : Guru> > >> > > Why should we> > > not foolishly discriminate ?> > >> > > Our only shelter is Supreme Lord, and one who teaches how to > approach> > Krishna is the functioning form of the Supreme Personality of > Godhead.> > There is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme Lord and > the> > initiating and instructing spiritual master. If one foolishly> > discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge > of> > devotional service.> > >> > > Chaitanya Charithaamrutha, Adi Leela, 1.47> > >> > > ____________________> > > > Tired> > of spam? Mail has the best spam protection around> > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > _______________> > > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word > scramble> > challenge with star power.> > >> > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?> icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_o\> > ct> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Like a bee sucking nectar from the flower, a true devotee will also

find whatever is useful in this world, whether he is with ISKCON or

outside ISKCON. As for criticism, it is a habit which will take deep

introspection to remove. I have tried to see the goodness which flows

from the teachings of Srila Prabhupada, (though I could not get to

see the real man in person), not keeping in mind the organisation

which may or may not be perfect in some aspects...................all

these are very individual and subjective viewpoints and should not be

generalised, and are thus debatable at all times.

 

I personally feel we should move along with the good things ISKCON

has given us, like the four spiritual principles, the chanting

process, and lately there has been a deluge of new bhajans (which can

be heard at Radio KHQN, or Radio Krishna Centrale) thus I see the

organisation as a flowering blooming Bhaktavrinda, and I feel

eventually it has a lot more to give to the world.Let us be like the

bees who go for the nectar in the flowers, and not like the flies who

go for the sap leaking out of the wounds of the plant.If we are able

to find even an iota of nectar by chanting, we must go for it

seriously and locate the source- Krishna, for everything good is

coming to us from Krishna. We must be quick in setting aside the

negative aspects, and adopting the good practices.

 

, " J. Madhav " <jay_madhav

wrote:

>

> Narayanadas Ji,

>

> Hari Om!

>

> It does not suit you to criticize anyone who is helping spread

Krishna's name. This world is full of imperfect individuals(ISKCON

or Non-ISKCON). I am still waiting to meet a perfect person.

>

> If you feel the same as I do, then why do you criticize anyone

or any organization that tries to promote any part of Sanatan

Dharma. There is no shortage of people in the World who criticize

our religion. Do you have to add yourself into that line. There are

people/companies abusing our respected deities by printing on

sandals, underwear etc. (and they do not have Christian or Islamic

figures at the same place). When sued, they will apologize and mean

while get extra media attention for free resulting in financial

gains. Similar action is taken by others and the history keeps

repeating. I suggest, if you are concerned to improve the World,

then this would provide you the proper focus (to eliminate/reduce

such disrespect). You may not be aware of some of the characters of

preachers in the church and just about all the religions. ISKCON

problems compared to that are not that serious.

>

> We all may agree with some of your concerns, but the ISKCON

problems were due to handful of individuals (who were converted

western people to begin with). I have seen that majority of

individuals have one mission, that is to chant Hare Krishna - the

magic words. Just like other branches of religion, they are also a

branch of Hindu Religion (and not all of it).

>

> Western people (mainly from Christian Religion) try to play

with the minds of Hindu Believers. When they see that ISKCON is

progressing in the World, they call it a cult. Because it does not

serve their belief systems. Just by labeling cult, they can insult

the organization and pretending that they are not insulting a major

religion. When British came to India (to rule) their main mission

was to Bankrupt the richest country on earth (at that time), and also

to spread their religion. Slowly they convinced the Hindu Public

that everything that HIndus believe, is a Myth. Ramayan is a Myth,

Mahabharat is a Myth, Rama and Krishna both are mythological figures

to such extent that even today when famous Hindu Speakers visit USA,

they proudly speak, " According to Hindu Mythology, Krishna

did..... " . They do not understand that the country is free of

British control and they need to free their mind and start believing

in what they have been told by their ancestors (Saints and Sages) and

not the British. They pushed their false theory of Aryan Migration

(some British came up with a dream without and evidence). With this

theory, the Europeans can take credit of all our Sanskrit literatures

including four Vedas and Upanishads. Have you ever heard anyone

talking about Christian Mythology, or Islamic Mythology? Also, have

you ever read in Sanskrit in any of the books that Ramayan and

Mahabharat were Myth? School books in California were influenced by

non Hindus to write a chapter on Hindu Religion, ignoring inputs from

real Hindus. Winning in court does not fix the errors that have been

printed. Malaysia and Pakistan is systematically destroying all the

Hindu Temples.

>

> Hence, Narayan Ji, there is no shortage of people to

check/destroy/eliminate Hindu Dharma. I suggest you change your

outlook.

>

> With Best Regards,

> - Jagdish

>

>

>

> -

> narayana_das77

>

> Saturday, November 03, 2007 10:28 PM

> Re: Spiritual Teacher is not Equal to

Lord Krishna .

>

>

>

> Dear Friends ,

>

> My statement on the above subject was just a response to

the " out of context " Quote : " There is no difference between the

shelter-giving Supreme Lord and the initiating and instructing

Spiritual Master. If one foolishly discriminates between them, he

commits an offense in the discharge of devotional service " .

>

> This is exactly what the new generation ISKCON teachers are "

blowing out of proportion " . According to them " Whoever initiates

You is Your " Spiritual Master " . And Your duty is to serve him

throughout your life , since he is not different from Krsna " .

>

> On several occasions like " Vyasapuja " , the Teacher's birthday ,

His arrival at your place , Beginning of His new tours etc, etc ,

You will receive intimation from his Main Disciple urging " Donate

money to " Gurudeva " who is non-different from Krsna OR His

incarnation Vyasadeva " . For sure , the above reaches you in the

Teacher's letter head or published in his personal website . Of

course , a Disciple is duty bound to give Gurudakhina to his

Teacher . However, on the Teacher's part , there is no need no do

forcing or cajoling to extract maximum out of his disciple .

>

> Christianity thrives on naked " Money Power " , whereas Vaishavism

is rooted on " Bhakti " ( devotion ) . Lord Krishna is not at all

materialistic , but 100% Spiritual . What matters to Him is Bhakti

and not the money you donate . Of course , necessary money required

for His genuine service, automatically comes from His Servants who

are ever willing to do anything for their beloved Lord .

>

> What the Lord dislikes is misuse of Funds gathered for His

service . ISKCON had mobilized Crores from their followers and well

wishers , promising to use the money for Krishna's service . But ,

when it's certain immature " Leaders " got themselves embroiled in

Criminal cases , the compensation was paid from the sacred Funds and

not from the bulky " Pockets " of those responsible for the crimes .

The lesson learned from this is, not to give the " Spiritual

Teachers " " Exalted Positions Equal to Krishna " OR Pump in Extra

funds into their personal Coffers . As Spirituals , they are above

materialism and their normal expenses are born by ISKCON OR their

Program sponsors.

>

> Now , let me answer your " Points of Concern " :

>

> ISKCON Cult

>

>

>

> Cult is defined " System of religious worship ; Worship of Person

or thing " .

>

> Krishna Consciousness is the worship of Krsna , the Supreme

Personality of Godhead . So , initially ISKCON called itself

a " Cult " . And to many like us, there is nothing objectionable

about that . There is no other single word in English that means "

Worship of one Favorite Deity " .

>

> Later, when the cases came up against it , the " Cult " became a

liability to ISKCON . And it stopped mentioning Self a " Cult " .

>

> People like me use the word " Cult " in respect only . For sure , I

respect ISKCON and Prabhupada Maharaja for their yeomen service to

spread Krishna consciousness all over the world .

>

> However , I don't agree with the Deity worship of past or present

Spiritual Teachers ; Especially , offering Arati , Food , and other

Paraphernalia to the Deity of Teacher as equal to Lord Krishna .

>

> Corruption Due to Exalted Worship

>

> What I mentioned in this regard, are mere excerpts from Tamal

Krishna Goswamy's book " The Perils of Succession ; Heresies of

Authority and Continuity in Hare Krishna Movement " . In this book ,

Goswamy describes how , exalted worship corrupted many post

Prabhupada-era Spiritual Teachers of ISKCON ; and how they found it

difficult to differentiate between Personal and Impersonal forms of

Krishna .

>

> Financial Crises in ISKCON

>

> Here I made a mistake . I should have mentioned " They ( Fallen

Teachers in ISCKCON) made it " literally " bankrupt " .

>

> I do agree that , ISKCON is not bankrupt , yet though it faces

financial difficulties due to the astronomical sums being spent for

the out of court settlements .

>

> Relevance of ISKCON

>

> Here too , I agree that , ISKCON is the pioneer international

Forum to propagate Krishna Consciousness to all over the world .

>

> To teach swimming , it is advisable to teach the kid first about

the basics and then throw him in to shallow water . The teacher's

hand will keep the student afloat .

>

> Prabhupada Mahararaja was like this . He first taught the student

on the basics of Krishna consciousness and then threw him in to the

broad world giving a few books of Gita and Bhagavatam . Due to the

Supreme Teacher Krishna's ever ready helping hand , he will survive

from the sale of those books and thereafter from the cumulative

spiritual power gained out of such selfless service to Lord Krishna

and His Servants .

>

> Please forgive me , if my words have offended any of you .

>

> Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

> Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

>

> Narayanadas.

>

>

>

>

>

> , " sanjeev " <punjsanjeev@>

wrote:

> >

> > General statements like calling ISKCON a cult, can mislead the

> > readers. ISKCON ahs been in the forefront of a spiritual

revolution

> > worldwide. You cannot dismiss the work done by Srila Prabhupada

in a

> > few sentences.Srila Prabhupada was never worshipped in a way

Krishna

> > is worshipped, they simply chant enthusiastically before Srila

> > Prabhupada's statue, and sometimes they carry it (the statue)

around

> > in ecstacy, that is a feeling of devotion for the Guru, and it

is not

> > equal to worship of Krishna, cannot be equated, ever.

> > As for your statement that Srila prabhupada's disciples or

> > followers have become corrupted due to some exalted worship,

can you

> > give a tanginle example instead of making a general statement?

You

> > are also stating that ISKCON is bankrupt, on what basis? Have

you

> > examined their accounts? Please refrain from making vague and

general

> > comments on ISKCON. Millions of devotees worldwide are reaping

the

> > benefits of chanting Harinaama and this is due to the work done

by

> > Srila Prabhupada's followers and disciples.

> >

> > All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

> >

> > , " narayana_das77 "

> > narayana_das77@ wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear Friends ,

> > >

> > > Chaitanya Caritamruta was not written by Lord Caitanya , but

His

> > > Disciples . By the term Spiritual Master they mean Lord

Caitanya

> > and

> > > not ordinary Spiritual Teachers .

> > >

> > > In the case of Advaitia philosophy , their Disciples are

> > worshipping own

> > > sectarian Gurus as Gods . However, Lord Krishna's devotees

worship

> > > only Krishna as God . Of course , the knowledge giving

Teacher is

> > > treated with utmost respect , but he is not worshipped as

God .

> > >

> > > Let us look in to the case of Dhruva and Prahlada two of the

> > greatest

> > > Krishna-devotees . Both of them were initiated into

Vaishnavism by

> > > Narada-muni . However , after attaining the basic knowledge ,

both

> > > Dhruva and Prahlada focused their worship entirely on Lord

> > Narayana ,

> > > the Supreme God . Narada Muni on his part was very happy to

see

> > their

> > > Devotion and never came between them and Lord Narayana .

> > >

> > > I do agree that , Lord Caitanya was an incarnation of Lord

Krishna

> > and

> > > therefore , He deserved worship . However , Lord Caitanya

never

> > revealed

> > > His true identity and He always urged everyone to worship

Krishna

> > alone

> > > and not Himself . Divine personalities are utmost careful in

their

> > > speech and work . They know very well that any scope for

> > > misinterpretation will be misused by their lesser successors .

> > >

> > > A classic example is in ISKCON Cult . They started this

practice of

> > > exalted worship to " Spiritual Master " ( their version of

> > > Guru) as equal to God . Prabhupada Maharaja was a great

Sannyasi and

> > > therefore such worship didn't affect him . However ,

continuous

> > > receipt of such exalted worship practically corrupted

Prabhupada

> > > Maharaja's successor Spiritual Teachers . Upon receiving such

undue

> > > worship and exalted positions , they started considering

themselves

> > as

> > > equal to Krishna . And such mental imbalance led them to more

and

> > more

> > > problems . In a very short time , it practically undermined

> > ISKCON by

> > > making it bankrupt .

> > >

> > > My humble request to ISKCON followers is not to harm their

> > organization

> > > further by quoting Krishna's devotional books out of context

to

> > > boost up the image of " ISKCON Spiritual Teachers " . They are

> > > Spiritual Teachers and not Spiritual Masters or Lord Krishna .

> > >

> > > Thanks and Regards,

> > >

> > > Narayanadas

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , Sanjeev Punj

<punjsanjeev@>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > krishnabhaktas@: harekrishnaaa@: Tue, 30 Oct 2007

07:39:54

> > > -0700[Hare Krishna] Why should we not foolishly

> > discriminate ?

> > > Sudhaa Bindu : 848

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Topic : Guru

> > > >

> > > > Why should we

> > > > not foolishly discriminate ?

> > > >

> > > > Our only shelter is Supreme Lord, and one who teaches how

to

> > approach

> > > Krishna is the functioning form of the Supreme Personality of

> > Godhead.

> > > There is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme

Lord and

> > the

> > > initiating and instructing spiritual master. If one foolishly

> > > discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the

discharge

> > of

> > > devotional service.

> > > >

> > > > Chaitanya Charithaamrutha, Adi Leela, 1.47

> > > >

> > > > ____________________

> > > > Do You

?

> > Tired

> > > of spam? Mail has the best spam protection around

> > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

_______________

> > > > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word

> > scramble

> > > challenge with star power.

> > > >

> > > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?

> > icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_o\

> > > ct

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hari Bol. My pranaams to all devotees of The Lord. When one chooses to spread Lord Krsna's name--they must do it impeccably. That they choose to do so means that they took on this duty. Lord Krsna was very precise about that which is righteous and that which is not. If you choose to spread His Name--you have only one path to follow--the righteous one. There is no room for anything contrary. Either you do it the correct way or you don't. One person committing sin/abuse in The Lord's Name is one person too much. The Lord demonstrated in no uncertain terms that He does not tolerate abuses especially to His Devotees. He was very annoyed with Arjuna when the latter decided that he was going to forgive those that were unrighteous. The Lord commanded Arjuna to destroy those that were evil and those that choose to tolerate/excuse those that were evil. He didn't

allow Arjuna to spare even his Guru. People who are committing any evil acts in The Lord's name must be stopped. Anyone who excuses those that are committing these acts are only condoning evil and as such will reap the same results as those who commit these acts just as how the great Bheeshma Pitama Ji had to perish because he choose to excuse The Kauravas. My belief is that if you know that you are not capable enough--don't do anything that will cause a stain to the Sacred Name of The Lord. Any organisation, any preacher associated with/uses the name of The Lord and commits evil acts are a stain on the Name of The Lord. Why should we even waste time bothering with other faiths and what their followers are doing in their name--our concern is with ours.That people of other faiths are committing sinful acts does not in any way or form make us feel free to follow them. Those that choose to

be Messengers of Lord Krsna has to follow His example alone. As I mentioned before, one person committing a sinful act in His Name is one person too much. This is just my humble opinion. Jai Sri Krsna. Regards, Nanda , "J. Madhav" <jay_madhav wrote:>> Narayanadas Ji,> > Hari Om!> > It does not suit you to criticize anyone who is helping spread Krishna's name. This world is full of imperfect individuals(ISKCON or Non-ISKCON). I am still waiting to meet a perfect person.> > If you feel the same as I do, then why do you criticize anyone or any

organization that tries to promote any part of Sanatan Dharma. There is no shortage of people in the World who criticize our religion. Do you have to add yourself into that line. There are people/companies abusing our respected deities by printing on sandals, underwear etc. (and they do not have Christian or Islamic figures at the same place). When sued, they will apologize and mean while get extra media attention for free resulting in financial gains. Similar action is taken by others and the history keeps repeating. I suggest, if you are concerned to improve the World, then this would provide you the proper focus (to eliminate/reduce such disrespect). You may not be aware of some of the characters of preachers in the church and just about all the religions. ISKCON problems compared to that are not that serious. > > We all may agree with some of your concerns, but the ISKCON problems

were due to handful of individuals (who were converted western people to begin with). I have seen that majority of individuals have one mission, that is to chant Hare Krishna - the magic words. Just like other branches of religion, they are also a branch of Hindu Religion (and not all of it). > > Western people (mainly from Christian Religion) try to play with the minds of Hindu Believers. When they see that ISKCON is progressing in the World, they call it a cult. Because it does not serve their belief systems. Just by labeling cult, they can insult the organization and pretending that they are not insulting a major religion. When British came to India (to rule) their main mission was to Bankrupt the richest country on earth (at that time), and also to spread their religion. Slowly they convinced the Hindu Public that everything that HIndus believe, is a Myth. Ramayan is a Myth,

Mahabharat is a Myth, Rama and Krishna both are mythological figures to such extent that even today when famous Hindu Speakers visit USA, they proudly speak, "According to Hindu Mythology, Krishna did.....". They do not understand that the country is free of British control and they need to free their mind and start believing in what they have been told by their ancestors (Saints and Sages) and not the British. They pushed their false theory of Aryan Migration (some British came up with a dream without and evidence). With this theory, the Europeans can take credit of all our Sanskrit literatures including four Vedas and Upanishads. Have you ever heard anyone talking about Christian Mythology, or Islamic Mythology? Also, have you ever read in Sanskrit in any of the books that Ramayan and Mahabharat were Myth? School books in California were influenced by non Hindus to write a chapter on Hindu Religion, ignoring inputs from real Hindus. Winning

in court does not fix the errors that have been printed. Malaysia and Pakistan is systematically destroying all the Hindu Temples.> > Hence, Narayan Ji, there is no shortage of people to check/destroy/eliminate Hindu Dharma. I suggest you change your outlook.> > With Best Regards,> - Jagdish> > TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)

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