Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 Om Namo Narayanaya! Dear Respected members, Thank you all for very valuable input. I will try to put together what I understand from this discussion. Please do correct me if I am wrong. It seems that the path of Jnana yoga is difficult to follow and has several hurdles. However, eventually knowledge matures to Bhakti. In contrast, the path of Bhakti yoga is sweet right from the begining. When Bhakti yoga reaches its zenith, knowledge dawns on the individual, that eventually leads to Self-realization. In such a state, the whole universe is perceived as Brahman alone. The distinction between the worshipper and the worshipped is lost. Is the relationship between the Jivatma and Paramatma still termed as bhakti? Or in other words, How does Advaita philosophy explain Bhakti? Eagerly looking forward to some valuable thoughts on this. Sunita Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2006 Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 Respected Sunita, In Advaita Philosophy, bhakti is a means to attain the goal - sayoojya mukti - oneness. In traditional schools of Vaishnavism, bhakti is the means and bhakti remains the goal. One does not merge into the impersonal brahman. One is happy with nitya-kainkaryam - eternal servitude, to the Lord. Even in Vaikuntha the jiva-atma retains its individuality, different from bhagavan. In his/her swaroopa the bhakti continues.... in a more perfected platform. brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati samah sarvesu bhutesu mad-bhaktim labhate param One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me. ~Gita18.54 This tells us that bhakti, is superior, even to liberation. That is the reason that great devotees, in their kritis, sing for bhakti birth-after-birth. This bhakti is so rare, rarer than mukti or bukti. Deosn't matter heaven, hell or earth - wherever one has the associtation of the Lord and his devotees, that is Vaikuntha. MM 4: O Lord Hari, it is not to be saved from the dualities of material existence or the grim tribulations of the Kumbh & #299;p & #257;ka hell that I pray to Your lotus feet. Nor is my purpose to enjoy the soft-skinned beautiful women who reside in the gardens of heaven. I pray to Your lotus feet only so that I may remember You alone in the core of my heart, birth after birth. MM 5: O my Lord! I have no attachment for religiosity, or for accumulating wealth, or for enjoying sense gratification. Let these come as they inevitably must, in accordance with my past deeds. But I do pray for this most cherished boon: birth after birth, let me render unflinching devotional service unto Your two lotus feet. ~Mukunda Mala by King Kulashekhara. Hare Krishna Abhilash --- Sunita ramanthan <rsunitaa wrote: > Om Namo Narayanaya! > Dear Respected members, > Thank you all for very valuable input. I will > try to put together what I understand from this > discussion. Please do correct me if I am wrong. > It seems that the path of Jnana yoga is > difficult to follow and has several hurdles. > However, eventually knowledge matures to Bhakti. In > contrast, the path of Bhakti yoga is sweet right > from the begining. When Bhakti yoga reaches its > zenith, knowledge dawns on the individual, that > eventually leads to Self-realization. In such a > state, the whole universe is perceived as Brahman > alone. The distinction between the worshipper and > the worshipped is lost. Is the relationship between > the Jivatma and Paramatma still termed as bhakti? Or > in other words, How does Advaita philosophy explain > Bhakti? > > Eagerly looking forward to some valuable thoughts > on this. > > Sunita > > > > Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for > ridiculously low rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2006 Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 It is an interesting question.The ancient seers in their anxiety to save the mankind from moving away from the Creator at a future time prescribed various means in the form of yogas,mantras,tatvas,scriptures etc for the upliftment of humanity.Thus came into existence the vedas,upanishads, and eversomany rituals,mantras etc.In the process Hindu pantheism has developed the Creative Power into various Gods with forms though at the same time proclaimed that the God or Brahman is having no form and takes forms according to the desire of the worshipper.For beginners in the journey towards Godhead it is well nigh impossible to worship the Brahman in an unmanifested form.So the idol worship came into existence.Thus Siva, Vishnu came into the fore.To add to this more and more deities were added either in the mould of Siva, like Ganesa,Subrahmanya,Sastha etc and the many avatars of Vishnu also came.In short instead of concentrating God in a single form now we have umpteen forms for the devotees.This is actually a type of baulkanisation and continue to be a distraction of earnest devotees as when we go to the temple of Krishna we call His name and in Sivas temple we call His name and so on forgetting that all are the same and we normally never bother abt that aspect.In this way one's concentration gets diluted so that the person never progresses in his pursuits. It is true Bhakthy concept is the easiest method for the present age of fast life but how to develop Bhakthy when we are worshipping several deities.For any progress in the realm of spirituality one pointedness is the sine qua non which can't be attained if we worship several deities as our mental energy gets dissipated leading us nowhere.It is the aspiration of a good percentage of humanity to know the Reality but actually groping in the dark.So for achieving success one has to take a particular deity of his/her choice and cling to the same and finding that deity in all other forms of deities.That is the true worship which can lead one step by step to the higher realms of spirituality.A Bhaktha is one who completely surrenders himself/herself to the chosen deity and has complete faith,dedication and without a wavering mind.Such a person never bothers abt achievements he/she makes in the mundane sphere and also never bothers abt if he/she has to undergo sufferings as fully convinced that his/her duty is simply to serve God in the form chosen and never bother abt the results of the action.In his/her mind always the chosen deity is engraved and always remembers the form even while discharging his/her worldly duties and commitments.Such persons doing their service and also meditating on the form for some years will be lifted to the higher dimensions thru unforeseen force and after years of such dedication and spiritual practice gets the vision of the chiosen deity within his/her mind which guides and goads him/her to further advancement in the spheres above by raising the power within one which remains dormant for all.Steadily the devotee rises up in the spiritual plane and depending on his Karmic effects, reaches a stage where he/she will find the consciousness gets expanded and starts to engulf the universe in the ultimate process where the devotee gets merged in the very form which he/she chose and the form itself gets diluted and the unmanifested Universal Cosmic Power is the only one that remains and the worshipper gets one with the worshipped and the indivifuality gets merged in the universality.This process is long and may take years and even several births to achieve depending on the karma effects and the readiness of the worshipper and his/her aspirations. In that state he/she enjoys only Bliss a state of Paramananda and all the worlds the worshipper finds within the expanded Conscousness and there is only one formless Being and no second and the Realised soul enjoys the 'I'ness everywhere in a deep state of samathy. This is the Bliss enjoyed by Meera by worshipping Krishna,Thyagaraja by his devotion to Rama,Ramakrishna by worshipping Kali and so with other great souls.On the other hand Ramana achieved his Realisation by having constant thinking of who am I?The paths may be different but all of them achieved the same goal.It is very difficult to say in their highest state of Bliss what actually they encountered and what they hv seen as the Great Being or God as the Realised Souls hv never stated anything abt the final consummation.There is a saying in Tamil 'Kandavar Vindilar, Vindavar Kandilar'- ie. those who hv seen the Being never stated anything abt that, and those who say that they hv seen God have not seen.As this is a matter which can't be tested in a labaratory but has to be experienced by oneself the Realsied souls never say abt the experience as understanding the same will be beyond human comprehensive powers and hence no purpose will be served by explaining to the people and they only advise to be devoted to a particular deity and the truth will be known when one passes thru the various stages in the spiritual evolution and reaches the zenith. In that process when the Realisation dawns on the individual soul there is no necessity for showing more Bhakthy as the worshipper and the worshipped hv got merged in a single entity and there is no distinction between the two. Till that time the worshipper has to show his/her dedication,devotion,love, surrender to the chosen form.The river is known by its name only till the point it reaches the ocean and when the same moves into the ocean there is no distinction and the river can't be separated from the ocean and loses its individuality.The same is the case with indiviual soul also and when it merges with the universal soul there is no distinction and only the universal form remains and the individuality has no relevance.This is the accepted fact and the theory of Sankara is the correct thing though according to Madhva phlosophy dualism is there but when we accept the Oneness of God no question of duality arises. It is not to question the Vaishnava philosophy but the theory of monism as propogated by Sankara has more relevance.This I say from my contact with certain Realised souls.May be I am right or wrong.Studying of scriptures etc is only a tool for developing knowledge and by that itself one can't move in the ladder of higher spiritual dimensions unless there is devotion and spiritual practices which are necessary and perfect discipline to contain the mind in its upward journey. Hare Krishna. agraman. Sunita ramanthan <rsunitaa wrote: Om Namo Narayanaya! Dear Respected members, Thank you all for very valuable input. I will try to put together what I understand from this discussion. Please do correct me if I am wrong. It seems that the path of Jnana yoga is difficult to follow and has several hurdles. However, eventually knowledge matures to Bhakti. In contrast, the path of Bhakti yoga is sweet right from the begining. When Bhakti yoga reaches its zenith, knowledge dawns on the individual, that eventually leads to Self-realization. In such a state, the whole universe is perceived as Brahman alone. The distinction between the worshipper and the worshipped is lost. Is the relationship between the Jivatma and Paramatma still termed as bhakti? Or in other words, How does Advaita philosophy explain Bhakti? Eagerly looking forward to some valuable thoughts on this. Sunita Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. Do you have a question on a topic you cant find an Answer to. Try Answers India Get the all new Messenger Beta Now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2006 Report Share Posted May 22, 2006 GANAPATHY RAMAN <agraman62 wrote: It is an interesting question.The ancient seers in their anxiety to save the mankind from moving away from the Creator at a future time prescribed various means in the form of yogas,mantras,tatvas,scriptures etc for the upliftment of humanity.Thus came into existence the vedas,upanishads, and eversomany rituals,mantras etc.In the process Hindu pantheism has developed the Creative Power into various Gods with forms though at the same time proclaimed that the God or Brahman is having no form and takes forms according to the desire of the worshipper.For beginners in the journey towards Godhead it is well nigh impossible to worship the Brahman in an unmanifested form.So the idol worship came into existence.Thus Siva, Vishnu came into the fore.To add to this more and more deities were added either in the mould of Siva, like Ganesa,Subrahmanya,Sastha etc and the many avatars of Vishnu also came.In short instead of concentrating God in a single form now we have umpteen forms for the devotees.This is actually a type of baulkanisation and continue to be a distraction of earnest devotees as when we go to the temple of Krishna we call His name and in Sivas temple we call His name and so on forgetting that all are the same and we normally never bother abt that aspect.In this way one's concentration gets diluted so that the person never progresses in his pursuits. It is true Bhakthy concept is the easiest method for the present age of fast life but how to develop Bhakthy when we are worshipping several deities.For any progress in the realm of spirituality one pointedness is the sine qua non which can't be attained if we worship several deities as our mental energy gets dissipated leading us nowhere.It is the aspiration of a good percentage of humanity to know the Reality but actually groping in the dark.So for achieving success one has to take a particular deity of his/her choice and cling to the same and finding that deity in all other forms of deities.That is the true worship which can lead one step by step to the higher realms of spirituality.A Bhaktha is one who completely surrenders himself/herself to the chosen deity and has complete faith,dedication and without a wavering mind.Such a person never bothers abt achievements he/she makes in the mundane sphere and also never bothers abt if he/she has to undergo sufferings as fully convinced that his/her duty is simply to serve God in the form chosen and never bother abt the results of the action.In his/her mind always the chosen deity is engraved and always remembers the form even while discharging his/her worldly duties and commitments.Such persons doing their service and also meditating on the form for some years will be lifted to the higher dimensions thru unforeseen force and after years of such dedication and spiritual practice gets the vision of the chiosen deity within his/her mind which guides and goads him/her to further advancement in the spheres above by raising the power within one which remains dormant for all.Steadily the devotee rises up in the spiritual plane and depending on his Karmic effects, reaches a stage where he/she will find the consciousness gets expanded and starts to engulf the universe in the ultimate process where the devotee gets merged in the very form which he/she chose and the form itself gets diluted and the unmanifested Universal Cosmic Power is the only one that remains and the worshipper gets one with the worshipped and the indivifuality gets merged in the universality.This process is long and may take years and even several births to achieve depending on the karma effects and the readiness of the worshipper and his/her aspirations. In that state he/she enjoys only Bliss a state of Paramananda and all the worlds the worshipper finds within the expanded Conscousness and there is only one formless Being and no second and the Realised soul enjoys the 'I'ness everywhere in a deep state of samathy. This is the Bliss enjoyed by Meera by worshipping Krishna,Thyagaraja by his devotion to Rama,Ramakrishna by worshipping Kali and so with other great souls.On the other hand Ramana achieved his Realisation by having constant thinking of who am I?The paths may be different but all of them achieved the same goal.It is very difficult to say in their highest state of Bliss what actually they encountered and what they hv seen as the Great Being or God as the Realised Souls hv never stated anything abt the final consummation.There is a saying in Tamil 'Kandavar Vindilar, Vindavar Kandilar'- ie. those who hv seen the Being never stated anything abt that, and those who say that they hv seen God have not seen.As this is a matter which can't be tested in a labaratory but has to be experienced by oneself the Realsied souls never say abt the experience as understanding the same will be beyond human comprehensive powers and hence no purpose will be served by explaining to the people and they only advise to be devoted to a particular deity and the truth will be known when one passes thru the various stages in the spiritual evolution and reaches the zenith. In that process when the Realisation dawns on the individual soul there is no necessity for showing more Bhakthy as the worshipper and the worshipped hv got merged in a single entity and there is no distinction between the two. Till that time the worshipper has to show his/her dedication,devotion,love, surrender to the chosen form.The river is known by its name only till the point it reaches the ocean and when the same moves into the ocean there is no distinction and the river can't be separated from the ocean and loses its individuality.The same is the case with indiviual soul also and when it merges with the universal soul there is no distinction and only the universal form remains and the individuality has no relevance.This is the accepted fact and the theory of Sankara is the correct thing though according to Madhva phlosophy dualism is there but when we accept the Oneness of God no question of duality arises. It is not to question the Vaishnava philosophy but the theory of monism as propogated by Sankara has more relevance.This I say from my contact with certain Realised souls.May be I am right or wrong.Studying of scriptures etc is only a tool for developing knowledge and by that itself one can't move in the ladder of higher spiritual dimensions unless there is devotion and spiritual practices which are necessary and perfect discipline to contain the mind in its upward journey. Hare Krishna. agraman. Sunita ramanthan <rsunitaa wrote: Om Namo Narayanaya! Dear Respected members, Thank you all for very valuable input. I will try to put together what I understand from this discussion. Please do correct me if I am wrong. It seems that the path of Jnana yoga is difficult to follow and has several hurdles. However, eventually knowledge matures to Bhakti. In contrast, the path of Bhakti yoga is sweet right from the begining. When Bhakti yoga reaches its zenith, knowledge dawns on the individual, that eventually leads to Self-realization. In such a state, the whole universe is perceived as Brahman alone. The distinction between the worshipper and the worshipped is lost. Is the relationship between the Jivatma and Paramatma still termed as bhakti? Or in other words, How does Advaita philosophy explain Bhakti? Eagerly looking forward to some valuable thoughts on this. Sunita Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. Do you have a question on a topic you cant find an Answer to. Try Answers IndiaGet the all new Messenger Beta Now May god bless you, Dr. Saroja Ramanujam, M.A., Ph.D, Siromani in sanskrit. Feel free to call! Free PC-to-PC calls. Low rates on PC-to-Phone. Get Messenger with Voice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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