Dasavathara

[Guest guest]

This question has comup already in thegroup and has been dscussed in

deail. I am reproducing What I wrote then,Moreover SRt KVG ha also

quoted from Bhagavath etc to provre this but I don't underatand whyhe

has said that ifBalarama is also an avathara then Krushna cannot be

poornAvathAra.The upanishad says

Poornamadhah poornamidham poornAth poornamudhachyathE

poorNasta poorNam AdhAya poorNmva avasishyathE.

That is poorna(meaning Brahman , synonymous wuth Narayana of

Visishtadhvaitha.)THias is poorna (Meaning the manifestation of GOd

in the world as avathara or even as the world.)THis poorna comes from

that poorna. Taking away poorna from poorna what remains is also

poorna.

Lord Narayana is said to have manifested as Rama ,Krishna etc. That

does not mean that the HIs natural abode, say vaikunta or the world

as awhole or the cave of the heart as the antharyamin,has become

empty. He is srvavyApee sarvabhoothAntharAthma says upanishad.The

avathara are said to be his amsa in the sense that a quarter of a

circle is said to be the amsa of the whole.

The smrthi says, 'yadha yadha hi dharmasya glanirbhavathi bharatha

abhyutthanam adhrmasya thqdhathmanam srjamyaham.'Yhat is wherever

there is adharma aHe will create HImself.Rama or Krishna are not born

in the natural course. The Lord has manifested Himself as such.So is

Narasimha,varaha etc.The one who has createdeveryhting and he

indweller of all is He not able to create a form for Himself and come

in the world as such?

Krishna using the first person singular inGita talks as the supreme

self, the paramathman.THat is not decrying His avathara as

DEvakisutha.All are avatharas as God is the indweller and the Self of

all and the real meaning of " I " is the real self only.But only in

certain places the divinity shine forth in its full splendour.

Regading the concept of ISKCON that Krishan alone is the supreme self

and not an avathara, sure He is and so is Rama Narasimha even Siva Or

Devi,because supremeself is Brahman whose manifestations are

all.Ithihasa and puraNa e4xisted earlier than all oher schools of

thought and what is said there has to be taken as authority. Finally

saying Krishan is an avathara does not ah nyway undermine His being

the supreme godhead because He is that.

 

 

 

Regarding Dasavathara our earliest scriptural authority is

srimadbhagavatha and vishnupurana according to which Krishna is

definitely an avathar. I have not read Prabhupada's bhagavatha but

if Krishna is not an avathar how is the birth of Ksrishna as the son

of vasudeva and devaki is explained?As for Jayadeva the reason he has

not mentioned Krishnavathara is not because he considered Him as

Supreme soul, whcih nodubt He is, not only as Krishna but also as

Narsimha ,Rama or any of His manifestations as mentioned clearly in

Ramayana and Bhagavatha, but Jayadeva was addressing Krishna in his

ashtapadi, 'Pralaya payOdhijale' and hence he mentioned Krishna as

the one who had been taking all the avatharas. as nNarayana bhattadri

did in Narayaneeyam. He must have included Buddha for

sankhyaApooraNam, that is to complete the number to ten, perhaps by

that time Buddha has come to be accepted by the people as the tenth

avathara of Vishnu. That is only by popular belief and not authorised

by scriptures.in fact Bhagavatha mentions buddha indirectly saying

that the Lord has taken the form of one who created illusion in the

minds of those who misconstrued vedic injunctions and proceeded

towards the forbidden path and Rshabha and Kapila, the founders of

Jainism and sankhya have been mentioned directly as the avathatras of

Vishnu though not included in the prime ten.Bhagavatha says the Lord

took 24 avatharas of which buddha is also one besides numerous

avatharas He took in order to save the world.(Ref.Bhagvath a-2nd

skandha-chapter 7) From time immemorial devotees of Lord Narayana

considered te ten avathars of the Lord as invluding Krishna excluding

Buddha . Inthe vaishanvite tradition, I mean the followeers of

Ramanuja , after whom the vaishnavite religion started to flourish,

though it was Sankara who formulated the six mathams of worship

including that of Vishnu, all the vaishnavite acharyas like Desika

have extolled only the ten avatharas, namely, matsya,kurma,

varaha,nrsimha, vamana,parasuram a,rama,balarama, krishna and

kalki.Morover the aim of the incarnation has been set out in the Gita

as 'parithranaya sadhunam vinasayacha dushkrtham' which point out

only to these ten as avatharas.

[Guest guest]

Sarojaji - Shree Guruvayurappa Sharanam!

 

Thank you for your observations. I would just like to state a few

comments on your observations. Please forgive me if I am saying

something wrong.

 

guruvayur , " sarojram18 " <sarojram18 wrote:

>

> Regading the concept of ISKCON that Krishan alone is the supreme

>self and not an avathara, sure He is and so is Rama Narasimha even

>Siva Or Devi,because supremeself is Brahman whose manifestations are

>all.

>

There is a scripture called Brahma-Samhita, which was found by Shree

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in a temple in South India. These are the

prayers of Brahma to Shree Krishna when Brahma originally understood

who he is and what his duties are. In that wonderful scripture, all

the concepts with respect to avataras such as Rama, Narasimha is

stated as:

 

***

ramadi murtishu kala niyamena tishthan

nanavataram akarod bhuvaneshu kintu

krishna svayam sambhavad paramah puman yo

govindam adi purusham tamaham bhajami

 

" I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who manifested Himself

personally as Krishna, and the different avataras in the world in the

forms of Rama, Narasimha, Vamana, etc., as His subjective portions. " -

http://brahmasamhita.com/5/39/en

***

 

 

Regarding your mentioning of Lord Shiva it is stated in Brahma-

Samhita:

 

***

kshiram yatha dadhi vikara vishesha yogat

sanjayate nahi tasya prathag asti hetoh

yah sabhutah samupaiti vishesha yogat

govindam adi purusham tamaham bhajami

 

" Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but

yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its

cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the

state of Shambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work

of destruction. " - http://brahmasamhita.com/5/45/en

***

 

And ragarding your mentioning about Durga Devi, it is stated:

 

***

srshti sthiti pralaya sadhana shaktir eka

chayeva yasya bhuvanani bibharti durga

icchanurupam api sa ceshtate sa

govindam adi purusham tamaham bhajami

 

" The external potency Maya who is of the nature of the shadow of the

cit potency, is worshiped by all people as Durga, the creating,

preserving and destroying agency of this mundane world. I adore the

primeval Lord Govinda in accordance with whose will Durga conducts

herself. " - http://brahmasamhita.com/5/44/en

***

 

If we read all these prayers of Lord Brahma in conjunction with what

Krishna Himself says to Arjuna by saying that:

 

***

yepy anya devata bhakta yajante sraddhayanvitah

tepy mama eva kaunteya yajanaty avaidhipurvakam

 

" Whatever a man may sacrifice to other gods, O son of Kunti, is

really meant for Me alone, but it is offered without true

understanding. " - http://www.asitis.com/9/23.html

***

 

and

 

***

kamais tais tair hrta gyana yajante anya devata

tam tam niyamam asthaya prakrtya niyatah svaya

 

" Those whose minds are distorted by material desires surrender unto

demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship

according to their own natures. " - http://www.asitis.com/7/20.html

***

 

From the above statements of Krishna we can understand the statements

of Brahma in Brahma-Samhita.

 

>

>Ithihasa and puraNa e4xisted earlier than all oher schools of

>thought and what is said there has to be taken as authority. Finally

>saying Krishan is an avathara does not ah nyway undermine His being

>the supreme godhead because He is that.

>

But should'nt we take the instructions of Krishna in Bhagavad-Gita to

be the oldest because we all know that Krishna is the origin of

everyone and Krishna Himself confirms that He told the same Bhagavad-

Gita to Vivasvan (Sun God) many millions of years before he again

gave the same transcendental knowledge to Arjuna, as stated by

Krishna:

 

***

imam vivaste yogam proktavan aham avyayam

vivasvan manave prahva manur iksavake bravit

 

The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga

to the sun-god, Vivasvan, and Vivasvan instructed it to Manu, the

father of mankind, and Manu in turn instructed it to Iksvaku. -

http://www.asitis.com/4/1.html

***

 

 

>

> Regarding Dasavathara our earliest scriptural authority is

> srimadbhagavatha and vishnupurana according to which Krishna is

> definitely an avathar.

>

According to Srimad-Bhagavatam Krishna is the source of all the other

incarnations as mentioned in the famous verse:

 

***

ete camsa kala pumsah krishnas tu bhagavan swayam

indrari vyakulam lokam mrdayanti yuge yuge

 

All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions

or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Shree

Krishna is the original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on

planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The

Lord incarnates to protect the theists. -

http://srimadbhagavatam.com/1/3/28/en

****

 

>I have not read Prabhupada's bhagavatha but

> if Krishna is not an avathar how is the birth of Ksrishna as the

>son of vasudeva and devaki is explained?

>

I will humbly advise you to please read Srila Prabhupada's

translations and purport of Srimad-Bhagavatam, not only because he is

scholarly, but mainly because the pure devotion and love he had for

Krishna, because of which Krishna made Srila Prabhupada His

instrument to establish the great movement called ISKCON

(International Society for Krishna Consciousness).

 

The birth of Krishna as the son of Vasudeva and Devaki is explained

by Srila Prabhupada in the Krishna book (http://www.krsnabook.com) as

follows:

 

" ...One may argue that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who

creates the whole cosmic manifestation simply by His glance, cannot

come within the womb of Devaki, the wife of Vasudeva. To eradicate

this argument, Vasudeva said, " My dear Lord, it is not a very

wonderful thing that You appear within the womb of Devaki because the

creation was also made in that way. You were lying in the Causal

Ocean as Maha-Visnu, and by Your breathing process, innumerable

universes came into existence. Then You entered into each of the

universes as Garbhodakasayi Visnu. Then again You expanded Yourself

as Ksirodakasayi Visnu and entered into the hearts of all living

entities and entered even within the atoms. Therefore Your entrance

in the womb of Devaki is understandable in the same way. You appear

to have entered, but You are simultaneously all-pervading.... "

(http://krsnabook.com/ch3.html)

 

>As for Jayadeva the reason he has

> not mentioned Krishnavathara is not because he considered Him as

> Supreme soul, whcih nodubt He is, not only as Krishna but also as

> Narsimha ,Rama or any of His manifestations as mentioned clearly in

> Ramayana and Bhagavatha, but Jayadeva was addressing Krishna in

>his ashtapadi, 'Pralaya payOdhijale' and hence he mentioned Krishna

>as the one who had been taking all the avatharas. as nNarayana

>bhattadri did in Narayaneeyam.

>

So when a great saint and Pure devotee of Krishna like Jayadeva

Gosvami himself recognises Krishna as the person who has been taking

all the avataras, then should'nt we also accept his version? Please

forgive me if I am saying something wrong - I stand here to be

corrected by your wonderful wisdom and devotion.

 

 

>He must have included Buddha for

> sankhyaApooraNam, that is to complete the number to ten, perhaps by

> that time Buddha has come to be accepted by the people as the tenth

> avathara of Vishnu. That is only by popular belief and not

>authorised by scriptures.in fact Bhagavatha mentions buddha

>indirectly ...

>

 

Does it mean that the verse below are not authorised? Please do

inform?

 

SB 1.3.24: Then, in the beginning of Kali-yuga, the Lord will appear

as Lord Buddha, the son of Anjana, in the province of Gaya, just for

the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theist.

(http://srimadbhagavatam.com/1/3/24/en)

 

SB 1.3.25: Thereafter, at the conjunction of two yugas, the Lord of

the creation will take His birth as the Kalki incarnation and become

the son of Vishnu Yasha. At this time the rulers of the earth will

have degenerated into plunderers.

(http://srimadbhagavatam.com/1/3/25/en)

 

> took 24 avatharas of which buddha is also one besides numerous

> avatharas He took in order to save the world.(Ref.Bhagvath a-2nd

> skandha-chapter 7) From time immemorial devotees of Lord Narayana

> considered te ten avathars of the Lord as invluding Krishna

>excluding Buddha .

If you don't mind can you please provide which scripture states the

same? As I said before I am asking these only to understand this

topic.

 

Thank you so much. And once again apologies to you and the wonderful

devotees of the Guruvayur group, if I have said something wrong.

 

~Krishnadasa.