[Guruvayur/Guruvayoor] Blessings.

October 25, 2006

Very well said agramanji. I have asked this just to have some

discussion on Spiritual topics, because after all it is to discuss

these topics that the Lord has provided us with intelligence in the

human form of life.

Please find my comments below..

guruvayur , GANAPATHY RAMAN <agraman62

wrote:

>

> A reasonable doubt that can arise to anybody.I am not well versed

>in scriptures like you.Still what I feel the human evoloution has

>not reached that stage as to

> consider that all is Brahman and in such a case there is no

>necessity for you to say Shri Krishna Saranam Mama.

>

I was only asking with with full humility in order to engage in

spiritual discussion. I firmly believe Krishna's statement where

Krishna says:

[ Satatm Kirtayanto Mam Yatantashcha Drdhavrata

Namasyantashcha Mam Bhaktya Nityayukta Upasate

" Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination,

bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with

devotion. " - BG 9:14 - http://www.asitis.com/9/14.html ]

So, the devotional service continues eternally, at least for a

devotee, and does not end at any point of time. This is confirmed by

Krishna's statement " Nitya Yukta Upasate " .

>So we hv not reached that stage when we can perceive all as

>Oneness.For theory we can say but not in practice.We can quote from

>Upanishads and Gita so many things abt Brahman.But who is Brahman?We

>don't know and only the Realised Souls can say that and they won't

>since we can't understand the niceties of the same.

>

Yes, you are right here. Theoretical understanding is one thing and

practically applying it is another.

Also, Brahman is such a state that it cannot be explained by words.

Because by describing with words we are limiting the unlimited

Brahman.

>

>So as far as the humanity is concerned unless one reaches the stage

>of Brahman or whatever name we call

> we accept duality.So naturally we turn to our Ishta Devata for

>Mercy to lift us up from the troubles which we may face.When things

>are going well nobody bothers

> to hv mercy and when only in bad times people go to God for

>help.It is a natural thing.

>

Yes, Krishna says that four kinds of people come to him (), and they

come to Him because they are pious (Sukrtino):

[ Chatur Vidha Bhajante Mam Jana Sukrtino Arjuna

Arto Jignasur Atharthi Jnani Cha Bharatarshabha

" O best among the Bharatas [Arjuna], four kinds of pious men render

devotional service unto Me--the distressed, the desirer of wealth,

the inquisitive, and he who is searching for knowledge of the

Absolute. " - BG 7:16 - http://www.asitis.com/7/16.html ]

So, the distressed are indeed considered pious, and Krishna further

says that among the four categories of people, He likes 'Jnani' the

most because the Jnani is engaged in one pointed devotion, regardless

of the situation - 'Eka Bhaktir Vishishyate'.

This is very beautifully explained by Krishna:

[ Tesham Jnani Nityayukta Ekabhaktir Vishshiyate

Priyo Hy Jnani Atyartham Aham Sa Cha Mama Priyah

" Of these, the wise one who is in full knowledge in union with Me

through pure devotional service is the best. For I am very dear to

him, and he is dear to Me. " - BG 7:17 -

http://www.asitis.com/7/17.html ]

>

>So unless we get ourselves advanced in spiritualism and thru yogic

>practices as prescribed and by raising the Kundalini power which

>lies dormant in all beings and by the Grace of a Sat Guru raise the

>same and thru his gudance

> when the power pierces all the six phlexes and reach the

>Sahasrara in the head then we become Brahman and Oneness with the

>Creator and then there is no necessity for any giver and taker.

>

If someone is following the path of pure bhakti, s/he does not take

happiness in becoming one with the Creator. The best example of this

is Shree Hanuman, who maintained His indivituality and continuously

takes the names of Shree Rama. There are many other pure devotees who

do not take pleasure in becoming one with the Creator because they

lose the opportunity to render loving devotional service to the Lord.

>

> Till that time we hv to depend on God whom we consider as the

>Bestower of Mercy and we as the receiver for our ills.Even

>Bhattathiri had to beg the mercy of Sri Guruvayurappan to cure him

>of his illness and the result was the euology

> of Sri Krishna in the form of Narayaneeyam.We hv not reached that

>stage and so we hv to depend on the Mercy of God only for our

>problems.

>

But, the query now is -- Did Bhattathiri stop the glorification of

Krishna at any point? He is in the category of the person whom

Krishna likes very much and hence he will never stop glorifying

Krishna at any point of time.

>

>This is happening

> everyday in every one's life.Quoting Upanishad and Gita may be ok

>for knowing

> the showing of knowledge but that won't ultimately help without

>Bhakthy in the

> initial stages as we are only in that stage and hv not crossed

>that.

>

Quoting is not done to show knowledge, but only to bring authenticity

to the subject. Just like Sarojaji mentioned in one of her previous

mails that in a court of law the lawyers quote from the lawbooks.

Similarly when talking about the spiritual topics we often quote from

scriptures to bring authenticity.

And Bhakti is required not only in the initial stages but all the way

through --- at least for the person who is following the path of Pure

devotional service as elucidated by Srila Narada Muni who gives the

definition of Bhakti as:

Sarvopadhi Vinirmuktam Tat Paratvena Nirmalam

Hrshikena Hrshikesha Sevanam Bhaktir Uchyate

" When one gives up all the designations and then becomes pure. In

such a state one can start engaging in purely in the service of the

Lord (The master of the senses - Hrshikesha) all his senses

(Hrshikena). This is called Bhakti "

>

>If this can be understood well, there is no necessity for such

>queries.Anyway you hv raised certain doubts and this is the

>answer.There may be better persons to give more

> detailed explanations but with my poor knowledge of scriptures

>this what came to my mind.

>

I have initiated this conversation just to discuss spiritual topics

related to the Lord, because after all this is the aim of human form

of life. As stated by Krishna:

[ Mat chitta, Mad Gat Prana, Bodhayanta Parasparam

Kathayantashcha Maam Nityam Tushyanti Cha Ramanti Cha

" The thoughts of My pure devotees dwell in Me, their lives are

surrendered to Me, and they derive great satisfaction and bliss

enlightening one another and conversing about Me. " - BG 10:9 -

http://www.asitis.com/10/9.html ]

>

>I don't accept thanks in advance as I hv not made any comments but

>only explained for your query what I feel.

>

Thank you for kindly replying.

> Hare Krishna

Sarvam Shree Krishnarpanamastu!

~Krishnadasa.

> krishnadasa77 <krishnadasa77 wrote:

> I have a query with respect to this....

>

> If everything is Brahman as it is stated in Upanishad:

>

> ---

> sarvaM khalvidaM brahma

> sarva - whole, entire, all

> khalu - indeed, truly

> idam - this, known, present, this earthly world

> - All this (universe) is verily Brahman

> Chandogya Upanishad Ch. 3 Section 14 Verse 1

> ---

>

> Who is giving the Mercy and who is receiving it?

>

> Does it confirm this verse from Bhagavad-Gita 4:24

> (http://www.asitis.com/4/24.html)?

>

> brahmarpanam brahma havir

> brahmagnau brahmana hutam

> brahmaiva tena gantavyam

> brahma-karma-samadhina

>

> Thanks in advance for your comments..

>

> Shree Krishna Sharanam Mama!

>

> ~Krishnadasa.

> Find out what India is talking about on - Answers India

> Send FREE SMS to your friend's mobile from Messenger

Version 8. Get it NOW

>

October 25, 2006

Dear all,

Radhe Krishna!

Having read with great interest, a very interesting topic and the

answers from two scholars, I feel too small to make a rejoinder to it;

but I thought I too would like to add little bit of my own humble, if

not scholarly contribution.

"Ekam eva advitheeyam Brahma". Fine. Brahman is without a second.

It is unique in character. All that we see around us is Brahman. I

am not going by the "Nethi, Nethi" definition of Brahman by negation of

everything else. Let us say, "Sarvam Khalu idam Brahma". Even

assuming that as the gospel truth, one can see the entire universe as

Brahman, only after self-realisation. So far as we are all under the

realm of Maya, the "Avarana-sakthi" or the power of enveloping and

covering the true nature of Brahman, (on account of which Maya is known

as Avidya or ignorance) shrouds the thinking of ordinary mortals like

us. On this account, although theoretically we say that "Everything

is Brahman", we are not able to nurture that thinking further and see

the presence of Brahman in everything in practical life. Bhattatiri

says

"Bhoothanyethani bhoothatmakam api sakalam, pakshi-marthyam mrugadeen,

Marthyan, mithrani sathroon api yamitha-mathih, thwanmayany anamani.

Twat-sevayam hi siddhyet mama tava kripaya bhakti-dardhyam viragah

Twat-tatwasya-avabodhopi bhuvana-pathe yatna-bhedam vineiva.

Dasakam 91. sloka 6.

(I shall salute these five elements, and even everything composed of

(those) elements, birds, fishes, animals, etc., and human beings,

friends and even enemies, with restraint of mind, considering them as

your forms alone. O Lord of the Universe! On this account, by Your

grace, may I attain firmness of devotion in worshipping You, sense of

detachment, and also knowledge of Your true nature, without any

separate effort!)

Gita says, "Vidya-vinaya-sampanne brahmane gavi hasthini, suni chaiva

sva-pake cha pandithah samadarsinah.". Before anyone can become a

realised soul, he has at least got to see the equality in all these

beings! How many will be able to do that ? When that realisation

comes, the duality of the Brahman and the Universe will disappear from

his mind. The delusion of the snake and rope will go and he will see

only the rope. Likewise, the delusion that the Universe is different

from Brahman will also go. Of course, he will continue to see the

universe as the universe alone till the physical body exists, but the

knowledge that these two entities are not different, will be enshrined

in his mind.

Such total realisation will comes only when one transcends all the

three gunas, and reach the state of "Nis-thrygunyam". When he reaches

this state, there is nothing good, nothing bad, nothing right, nothing

wrong, no actions prescribed, no actions proscribed, no ego, no

mind-body complex, no prayers, no blessings. As Sankara says,

"Nisthrygunye patthi vicharatam ko vidhih, ko nishedhah?" Till such

time, prayers and blessings will have to continue!

I dont know whether the above makes any sense, but I have scribbled

something which came to my mind. Kindly pardon me for my foolishness

to venture into an area too big for me, and too big a piece for me to

bite.

Regards

KVG.

Saroja Ramanujam wrote:

What Agraman has written has perfectly answered the

question.Still I feel that I would answer at the same time what

Keishnadasa has asked, ie. what sankara has said in explanation of the

verse quoted from Gita and upanishad.

"Sarvam khalu idham brahma"means that everything is Brahman as

it is said 'sadheva soumya idham agra Aseeth EkamEva advitheetyam,'

all this was sathie.Brahman in the beginning , one only without a

second. And also 'yatho va imani bhoothani jayanthe yene jaathaani

jeevathi yasmin abhisamvisanthi thadh vijinjasasva thadh brahma,' from

whom all these beingsemerge, by whom all are sustained and into whom

all merge back, know that to be Brahman. All theses statements can be

interpreted on the line of advaita, visishtadvaita and dvaita.Howevr it

is done the truthis the same.Only the descriptions are different.To

describe something which cannot be described, 'Yatho vaacho

nivarthanthe apraapya mansaa saha' both speech and mind return without

undefrstanding it, the acharyas out of mercy for mankind who are

ignorant and do not possess even a fraction of their intelligence have

tried to eplain the inexplicable like explaining relativity theory to a

kindergarden child because unless man has some knowledge about the

truth he will not strive to attain it. So it is only to create

interest. The absolute reality, call it Brahman, God or Narayana, is

one and allpervading like the sun and it appears differently to

different people dependin on the way one looks at it. RAMAKRISHNA

EXPERIMENTED WITH ALL RELIGIONS AND PHILOSOPHY AND GAVE THE VERDICT

THAT ALL WERE RIGHT.

Advaita appeals to the intellect,visishtadvaita to the mind

and dvaita to the body. As man is a mixture of all the three we need

all the three perspectives for our progress.I will elaborate on this on

a separate post as I wrote what came to my mind spontaneously and don't

have time now to think as this is a deeper subject than it appears.

saroja Ramanujam

GANAPATHY RAMAN <agraman62 (AT) (DOT) co.in>

wrote:

A reasonable doubt that can arise to anybody.I am not well

versed in scriptures like you.Still what I feel the human evoloution

has not reached that stage as to

consider that all is Brahman and in such a case there is no

necessity for you to say Shri Krishna Saranam Mama.So we hv not reached

that stage when we can perceive all as Oneness.For theory we can say

but not in practice.We can quote from Upanishads and Gita so many

things abt Brahman.But who is Brahman?We don't know and only the

Realised Souls can say that and they won't since we can't understand

the niceties of the same.So as far as the humanity is concerned unless

one reaches the stage of Brahman or whatever name we call

we accept duality.So naturally we turn to our Ishta Devata for

Mercy to lift us up from the troubles which we may face.When things are

going well nobody bothers

to hv mercy and when only in bad times people go to God for

help.It is a natural thing.So unless we get ourselves advanced in

spiritualism and thru yogic practices as prescribed and by raising the

Kundalini power which lies dormant in all beings and by the Grace of a

Sat Guru raise the same and thru his gudance

when the power pierces all the six phlexes and reach the

Sahasrara in the head then we become Brahman and Oneness with the

Creator and then there is no necessity for any giver and taker.

Till that time we hv to depend on God whom we consider as the

Bestower of Mercy and we as the receiver for our ills.Even Bhattathiri

had to beg the mercy of Sri Guruvayurappan to cure him of his illness

and the result was the euology

of Sri Krishna in the form of Narayaneeyam.We hv not

reached that stage and so we hv to depend on the Mercy of God only for

our problems.This is happening

everyday in every one's life.Quoting Upanishad and Gita may be

ok for knowing

the showing of knowledge but that won't ultimately help

without Bhakthy in the

initial stages as we are only in that stage and hv not crossed

that.If this can be understood well, there is no necessity for such

queries.Anyway you hv raised certain doubts and this is the

answer.There may be better persons to give more

detailed explanations but with my poor knowledge of scriptures

this what came to my mind.I don't accept thanks in advance as I hv not

made any comments but only explained for your query what I feel.

Hare Krishna.

krishnadasa77 <krishnadasa77 >

wrote:

I have a query with respect to this....

If everything is Brahman as it is stated in Upanishad:

---

sarvaM khalvidaM brahma

sarva - whole, entire, all

khalu - indeed, truly

idam - this, known, present, this earthly world

- All this (universe) is verily Brahman

Chandogya Upanishad Ch. 3 Section 14 Verse 1

---

Who is giving the Mercy and who is receiving it?

Does it confirm this verse from Bhagavad-Gita 4:24

(http://www.asitis.com/4/24.html)?

brahmarpanam brahma havir

brahmagnau brahmana hutam

brahmaiva tena gantavyam

brahma-karma-samadhina

Thanks in advance for your comments..

Shree Krishna Sharanam Mama!

~Krishnadasa.

Find out what India is talking about on -

Answers India

Send FREE SMS to your friend's mobile from Messenger Version 8. Get

it NOW

May god

bless you,

Dr.

Saroja Ramanujam, M.A., Ph.D, Siromani in sanskrit.

Stay in the know. Pulse on the new .com.

Check it out.

October 25, 2006

Dear Sri.KVG, You are absolutelly correct in your observation and has not gone away from the tangent.When one reaches the Self Realised state there is nothing to be prayed to get or received as the Realised Soul though continues the activities in this world till the life goes out of the body and never attached to any of the going on and acts only as a passive spectator.As you said for that all shuld be treated as the same and till that time the individual soul has to observe the rituals till wisdom dawns.It is not an easy path as somebody imagines and whether one aspires to such position or not undoubtedly we are all moving on the path only and all depends on Time which can't be predicted and depends on the development and maturity of the individual soul to know the truth.It is not the question who becomes a Realised Soul as all are bound to become one day or other and may not be in this

birth and after several births depending on the karmic effects and thinking that such a notion is not an ideal one exhibits only ignorance.All the Great Souls hv enunciated this only.Your quoting of Bhattathiri is very apt.So your observations are definitely correct.Till the time the individuality goes one has to observe the prayers of Mercy from the Lord or Brahman till the person has reached the Brahman stage when all activities cease annd no more prayers etc. Hare Krishna, agraman."K.V Gopalakrishna" <gopalakrishna.kv wrote: Dear all,Radhe Krishna!Having read with great interest, a very interesting topic and the answers from two scholars, I feel too small to make a rejoinder to it; but I thought I too would like to add little bit of my own humble, if not scholarly contribution."Ekam eva advitheeyam Brahma". Fine. Brahman is without a second. It is unique in character. All that we see around us is Brahman. I am not going by the "Nethi, Nethi" definition of Brahman by negation of everything else. Let us say, "Sarvam Khalu idam Brahma". Even assuming that as the gospel truth, one can see the entire universe as Brahman, only after self-realisation. So far as we are all under the realm of Maya,

the "Avarana-sakthi" or the power of enveloping and covering the true nature of Brahman, (on account of which Maya is known as Avidya or ignorance) shrouds the thinking of ordinary mortals like us. On this account, although theoretically we say that "Everything is Brahman", we are not able to nurture that thinking further and see the presence of Brahman in everything in practical life. Bhattatiri says"Bhoothanyethani bhoothatmakam api sakalam, pakshi-marthyam mrugadeen,Marthyan, mithrani sathroon api yamitha-mathih, thwanmayany anamani.Twat-sevayam hi siddhyet mama tava kripaya bhakti-dardhyam viragahTwat-tatwasya-avabodhopi bhuvana-pathe yatna-bhedam vineiva. Dasakam 91. sloka 6.(I shall salute these five elements, and even everything composed of (those) elements, birds, fishes, animals, etc., and human beings, friends and even enemies, with restraint of mind, considering them as your forms alone. O Lord

of the Universe! On this account, by Your grace, may I attain firmness of devotion in worshipping You, sense of detachment, and also knowledge of Your true nature, without any separate effort!) Gita says, "Vidya-vinaya-sampanne brahmane gavi hasthini, suni chaiva sva-pake cha pandithah samadarsinah.". Before anyone can become a realised soul, he has at least got to see the equality in all these beings! How many will be able to do that ? When that realisation comes, the duality of the Brahman and the Universe will disappear from his mind. The delusion of the snake and rope will go and he will see only the rope. Likewise, the delusion that the Universe is different from Brahman will also go. Of course, he will continue to see the universe as the universe alone till the physical body exists, but the knowledge that these two entities are not different, will be enshrined in his

mind. Such total realisation will comes only when one transcends all the three gunas, and reach the state of "Nis-thrygunyam". When he reaches this state, there is nothing good, nothing bad, nothing right, nothing wrong, no actions prescribed, no actions proscribed, no ego, no mind-body complex, no prayers, no blessings. As Sankara says, "Nisthrygunye patthi vicharatam ko vidhih, ko nishedhah?" Till such time, prayers and blessings will have to continue!I dont know whether the above makes any sense, but I have scribbled something which came to my mind. Kindly pardon me for my foolishness to venture into an area too big for me, and too big a piece for me to bite.RegardsKVG.Saroja Ramanujam wrote: What Agraman has written has

perfectly answered the question.Still I feel that I would answer at the same time what Keishnadasa has asked, ie. what sankara has said in explanation of the verse quoted from Gita and upanishad. "Sarvam khalu idham brahma"means that everything is Brahman as it is said 'sadheva soumya idham agra Aseeth EkamEva advitheetyam,' all this was sathie.Brahman in the beginning , one only without a second. And also 'yatho va imani bhoothani jayanthe yene jaathaani jeevathi yasmin abhisamvisanthi thadh vijinjasasva thadh brahma,' from whom all these beingsemerge, by whom all are sustained and into whom all merge back, know that to be Brahman. All theses statements can be interpreted on the line of advaita, visishtadvaita and dvaita.Howevr it is done the truthis the same.Only the descriptions are different.To describe something which cannot be described, 'Yatho vaacho nivarthanthe apraapya mansaa saha' both speech and mind return without

undefrstanding it, the acharyas out of mercy for mankind who are ignorant and do not possess even a fraction of their intelligence have tried to eplain the inexplicable like explaining relativity theory to a kindergarden child because unless man has some knowledge about the truth he will not strive to attain it. So it is only to create interest. The absolute reality, call it Brahman, God or Narayana, is one and allpervading like the sun and it appears differently to different people dependin on the way one looks at it. RAMAKRISHNA EXPERIMENTED WITH ALL RELIGIONS AND PHILOSOPHY AND GAVE THE VERDICT THAT ALL WERE RIGHT. Advaita appeals to the intellect,visishtadvaita to the mind and dvaita to the body. As man is a mixture of all the three we need all the three perspectives for our progress.I will elaborate on this on a separate post as I wrote what came to my mind spontaneously and don't have time now to think as this is a deeper

subject than it appears. saroja Ramanujam GANAPATHY RAMAN <agraman62 (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote: A reasonable doubt that can arise to anybody.I am not well versed in scriptures like you.Still what I feel the human evoloution has not reached that stage as to consider that all is Brahman and in such a case there is no necessity for you to say Shri Krishna Saranam Mama.So we hv not reached that stage when we can perceive all as Oneness.For theory we can say but not in practice.We can quote from Upanishads and Gita so many things abt Brahman.But who is Brahman?We don't know and only the Realised Souls can say that and they won't since we can't understand the niceties of the same.So as far as the humanity is concerned unless one reaches the stage of Brahman or whatever name we call

we accept duality.So naturally we turn to our Ishta Devata for Mercy to lift us up from the troubles which we may face.When things are going well nobody bothers to hv mercy and when only in bad times people go to God for help.It is a natural thing.So unless we get ourselves advanced in spiritualism and thru yogic practices as prescribed and by raising the Kundalini power which lies dormant in all beings and by the Grace of a Sat Guru raise the same and thru his gudance when the power pierces all the six phlexes and reach the Sahasrara in the head then we become Brahman and Oneness with the Creator and then there is no necessity for any giver and taker. Till that time we hv to depend on God whom we consider as the Bestower of Mercy and we as the receiver for our ills.Even Bhattathiri had to beg the mercy of Sri Guruvayurappan to cure him of his illness and the result was the euology of Sri Krishna in the form

of Narayaneeyam.We hv not reached that stage and so we hv to depend on the Mercy of God only for our problems.This is happening everyday in every one's life.Quoting Upanishad and Gita may be ok for knowing the showing of knowledge but that won't ultimately help without Bhakthy in the initial stages as we are only in that stage and hv not crossed that.If this can be understood well, there is no necessity for such queries.Anyway you hv raised certain doubts and this is the answer.There may be better persons to give more detailed explanations but with my poor knowledge of scriptures this what came to my mind.I don't accept thanks in advance as I hv not made any comments but only explained for your query what I feel. Hare Krishna.krishnadasa77 <krishnadasa77 > wrote: I have a query with respect to this....If everything is Brahman as it is stated in Upanishad:---sarvaM khalvidaM brahmasarva - whole, entire, allkhalu - indeed, trulyidam - this, known, present, this earthly world- All this (universe) is verily BrahmanChandogya Upanishad Ch. 3 Section 14 Verse 1---Who is giving the Mercy and who is receiving it? Does it confirm this verse from Bhagavad-Gita 4:24 (http://www.asitis.com/4/24.html)?brahmarpanam brahma havirbrahmagnau brahmana hutambrahmaiva tena gantavyambrahma-karma-samadhinaThanks in advance for your comments.. Shree Krishna Sharanam Mama!~Krishnadasa. Find out what India is talking about on - Answers India Send FREE SMS to your friend's mobile from Messenger Version 8. Get it NOW May god bless you, Dr. Saroja Ramanujam, M.A., Ph.D, Siromani in sanskrit. Stay in the know.

Pulse on the new .com. Check it out.

Find out what India is talking about on - Answers India Send FREE SMS to your friend's mobile from Messenger Version 8. Get it NOW

October 26, 2006

It is perfectly true what KVG said about the brahmadhrshti that till we reach the state of sthithaprajna we have to see dvaita only and hence bhakthimarga is the best. The power of upasana has been stressed in the upanishads and Ramanuja defines dhyana as consistent and persistent remembrance ofthe object of meditation,dhruvasmrthi.Devotion on the chosen ideal in the form of dhruvasmrthi will lead to the higher state of seeing the Lord in all, 'vasudevassarvam ithi' which may take many lives as GR has put it There is a sloka ,I think it is attributed to Hanuman, but I am not sure, perhaps KVG or someone might know, It goes like this:' dehabuddhyaa thu daasoham jeevabuddhyaa thvadhamsakah,athmabuddhyaa thvamevaaham ithi me nischitha mathih.'This means, 'when I think of myself as an embodied being I am your servant. When I see consider myself as an individual soul I am part ofyou. But when I think of myself as the Athman I am one with you.This is my firm

conviction."But the first step towards the blossoming of bhakthi into paraabhakthi is trying to see the Lord as not only limited in the particular form of worship and trying to see Him beyond the form and name.This will finally result in the perception of vaasudevassarvam.Of course his may may take many janma. But a devotee who has become a prapanna is not worried on that score. He has surrendered to the Lord and thus it becomes the burden of HIm to lead the prapanna by hand. The culmination of bhakthi results only when there is complete merging with theLord, as Bhagavatha says 'those who love Hari ,indeed lose themselves in Hari, yaanthi thanmayathaam Hareh.'The love of the gopis of Krishna is described by the Lord Himself as'Yathaa samaadhou munayo abdhithoye nadhyah pravishtaa iva naamarupe,just as the sages absorbed in samadhi and the rivers that enter the ocean are not distinguised by name and form.' Thus the love of Godis nothing but the love of the

absolute reality or the innerself of man which appears in theinitial stages as something different and infinitely superior. Spiritual progress thus begins with separating God from the individual soul as the one possessed of infinite auspicious qualities, anathakalyanagunavisishta, and gradually the devotee acquires the knowledge that he is the part and parcel of the Lord and finally realisesHim as his own inner self.This is paraabhakthi and after attaining it also sages lik eNarada kee their individuality at will in order to enjoy the bliss of the Divine Self as it is better to taste sugar than to become one with it. But it is their will to do so and they can enjoy Him in bothways eithir by merging or by being separate. Saroja ramanujam "K.V Gopalakrishna" <gopalakrishna.kv wrote: Dear all,Radhe Krishna!Having read with great interest, a very interesting topic and the answers from two scholars, I feel too small to make a rejoinder to it; but I thought I too would like to add little bit of my own humble, if not scholarly contribution."Ekam eva advitheeyam Brahma". Fine. Brahman is without a second. It is unique in character. All that we see around us is Brahman. I am not going by the "Nethi, Nethi" definition of Brahman by negation of everything else. Let us say, "Sarvam Khalu idam Brahma". Even assuming that as the gospel truth, one can see the entire universe as

Brahman, only after self-realisation. So far as we are all under the realm of Maya, the "Avarana-sakthi" or the power of enveloping and covering the true nature of Brahman, (on account of which Maya is known as Avidya or ignorance) shrouds the thinking of ordinary mortals like us. On this account, although theoretically we say that "Everything is Brahman", we are not able to nurture that thinking further and see the presence of Brahman in everything in practical life. Bhattatiri says"Bhoothanyethani bhoothatmakam api sakalam, pakshi-marthyam mrugadeen,Marthyan, mithrani sathroon api yamitha-mathih, thwanmayany anamani.Twat-sevayam hi siddhyet mama tava kripaya bhakti-dardhyam viragahTwat-tatwasya-avabodhopi bhuvana-pathe yatna-bhedam vineiva. Dasakam 91. sloka 6.(I shall salute these five elements, and even everything composed of (those) elements, birds, fishes, animals, etc., and human beings,

friends and even enemies, with restraint of mind, considering them as your forms alone. O Lord of the Universe! On this account, by Your grace, may I attain firmness of devotion in worshipping You, sense of detachment, and also knowledge of Your true nature, without any separate effort!) Gita says, "Vidya-vinaya-sampanne brahmane gavi hasthini, suni chaiva sva-pake cha pandithah samadarsinah.". Before anyone can become a realised soul, he has at least got to see the equality in all these beings! How many will be able to do that ? When that realisation comes, the duality of the Brahman and the Universe will disappear from his mind. The delusion of the snake and rope will go and he will see only the rope. Likewise, the delusion that the Universe is different from Brahman will also go. Of course, he will continue to see the universe as the universe alone till the physical

body exists, but the knowledge that these two entities are not different, will be enshrined in his mind. Such total realisation will comes only when one transcends all the three gunas, and reach the state of "Nis-thrygunyam". When he reaches this state, there is nothing good, nothing bad, nothing right, nothing wrong, no actions prescribed, no actions proscribed, no ego, no mind-body complex, no prayers, no blessings. As Sankara says, "Nisthrygunye patthi vicharatam ko vidhih, ko nishedhah?" Till such time, prayers and blessings will have to continue!I dont know whether the above makes any sense, but I have scribbled something which came to my mind. Kindly pardon me for my foolishness to venture into an area too big for me, and too big a piece for me to bite.RegardsKVG.Saroja Ramanujam wrote: What Agraman has written has perfectly answered the question.Still I feel that I would answer at the same time what Keishnadasa has asked, ie. what sankara has said in explanation of the verse quoted from Gita and upanishad. "Sarvam khalu idham brahma"means that everything is Brahman as it is said 'sadheva soumya idham agra Aseeth EkamEva advitheetyam,' all this was sathie.Brahman in the beginning , one only without a second. And also 'yatho va imani bhoothani jayanthe yene jaathaani jeevathi yasmin abhisamvisanthi thadh vijinjasasva thadh brahma,' from whom all these beingsemerge, by whom all are sustained and into whom all merge back, know that to be Brahman. All theses statements can be interpreted on the line of advaita, visishtadvaita and dvaita.Howevr it is done the truthis the same.Only the

descriptions are different.To describe something which cannot be described, 'Yatho vaacho nivarthanthe apraapya mansaa saha' both speech and mind return without undefrstanding it, the acharyas out of mercy for mankind who are ignorant and do not possess even a fraction of their intelligence have tried to eplain the inexplicable like explaining relativity theory to a kindergarden child because unless man has some knowledge about the truth he will not strive to attain it. So it is only to create interest. The absolute reality, call it Brahman, God or Narayana, is one and allpervading like the sun and it appears differently to different people dependin on the way one looks at it. RAMAKRISHNA EXPERIMENTED WITH ALL RELIGIONS AND PHILOSOPHY AND GAVE THE VERDICT THAT ALL WERE RIGHT. Advaita appeals to the intellect,visishtadvaita to the mind and dvaita to the body. As man is a mixture of all the three we need all the three perspectives

for our progress.I will elaborate on this on a separate post as I wrote what came to my mind spontaneously and don't have time now to think as this is a deeper subject than it appears. saroja Ramanujam GANAPATHY RAMAN <agraman62 (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote: A reasonable doubt that can arise to anybody.I am not well versed in scriptures like you.Still what I feel the human evoloution has not reached that stage as to consider that all is Brahman and in such a case there is no necessity for you to say Shri Krishna Saranam Mama.So we hv not reached that stage when we can perceive all as Oneness.For theory we can say but not in practice.We can quote from Upanishads and Gita so many things abt Brahman.But who is Brahman?We don't know and only the Realised Souls can say that and they won't

since we can't understand the niceties of the same.So as far as the humanity is concerned unless one reaches the stage of Brahman or whatever name we call we accept duality.So naturally we turn to our Ishta Devata for Mercy to lift us up from the troubles which we may face.When things are going well nobody bothers to hv mercy and when only in bad times people go to God for help.It is a natural thing.So unless we get ourselves advanced in spiritualism and thru yogic practices as prescribed and by raising the Kundalini power which lies dormant in all beings and by the Grace of a Sat Guru raise the same and thru his gudance when the power pierces all the six phlexes and reach the Sahasrara in the head then we become Brahman and Oneness with the Creator and then there is no necessity for any giver and taker. Till that time we hv to depend on God whom we consider as the Bestower of Mercy and we as the receiver for our ills.Even

Bhattathiri had to beg the mercy of Sri Guruvayurappan to cure him of his illness and the result was the euology of Sri Krishna in the form of Narayaneeyam.We hv not reached that stage and so we hv to depend on the Mercy of God only for our problems.This is happening everyday in every one's life.Quoting Upanishad and Gita may be ok for knowing the showing of knowledge but that won't ultimately help without Bhakthy in the initial stages as we are only in that stage and hv not crossed that.If this can be understood well, there is no necessity for such queries.Anyway you hv raised certain doubts and this is the answer.There may be better persons to give more detailed explanations but with my poor knowledge of scriptures this what came to my mind.I don't accept thanks in advance as I hv not made any comments but only explained for your query what I feel. Hare

Krishna.krishnadasa77 <krishnadasa77 > wrote: I have a query with respect to this....If everything is Brahman as it is stated in Upanishad:---sarvaM khalvidaM brahmasarva - whole, entire, allkhalu - indeed, trulyidam - this, known, present, this earthly world- All this (universe) is verily BrahmanChandogya Upanishad Ch. 3 Section 14 Verse 1---Who is giving the Mercy and who is receiving it? Does it confirm this verse from Bhagavad-Gita 4:24 (http://www.asitis.com/4/24.html)?brahmarpanam brahma havirbrahmagnau brahmana hutambrahmaiva tena gantavyambrahma-karma-samadhinaThanks in advance for your comments.. Shree Krishna Sharanam

Mama!~Krishnadasa. Find out what India is talking about on - Answers India Send FREE SMS to your friend's mobile from Messenger Version 8. Get it NOW May god bless you, Dr. Saroja Ramanujam, M.A.,

Ph.D, Siromani in sanskrit. Stay in the know. Pulse on the new .com. Check it out. May god bless you, Dr. Saroja Ramanujam, M.A., Ph.D, Siromani in sanskrit.

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October 26, 2006

Dear all,

Radhe Krishna!

A topic rightly initiated by Sri Krishnadasa has really evoked so much

of thought and has set me thinking deeper and deeper. The earlier mail

I had sent was just a random thought and I just scribbled something

without thinking this way or the other. But when persons of the

calibre of Sri Ganapathy Raman and Smt. Saroja Ramanujam have indicated

their approval of the thoughts that passed through my mind, I feel much

more confident in my philosophy which has gone many times over in

making my Bhakti stronger. For overcoming the realm of Maya, as the

Lord has said, we have to pray only to Lord Krishna with all humility

and softness or tenderness of mind. Such tenderness of mind can

never come if one follows Jnanayoga and Karmayoga. It may take many

Janmas or may happen in one Janma itself that a person gets that

sameness of thinking, the endorsement of the fact thar everything we

see is the manifestation of Brahman. Even if it takes more Janmas, it

doesn't matter, provided the remembrance of Guruvayoorappan continues

to stay in our minds, like Gajendra. But the very remembrance of the

Lord is so pleasant and gives us that bliss, which the Prachetas

enjoyed by performing thousand years of penance. This is why Bhakti is

always superior to Mukti. Once the drop becomes part of the ocean, it

is lost in the ocean. If it continues to stay as a drop, it can have

its own properties, and can still look at the ocean and enjoy the sight

of the ocean. So let us pray to Guruvayoorappan to augment our Bhakti

to reach its zenith and let us stay as His Bhaktas for ever, without

merging us with Him.

Love

KVG

Saroja Ramanujam wrote:

It is perfectly true what KVG said about the brahmadhrshti that

till we reach the state of sthithaprajna we have to see dvaita only and

hence bhakthimarga is the best. The power of upasana has been stressed

in the upanishads and Ramanuja defines dhyana as consistent and

persistent remembrance ofthe object of meditation,dhruvasmrthi.Devotion

on the chosen ideal in the form of dhruvasmrthi will lead to the higher

state of seeing the Lord in all, 'vasudevassarvam ithi' which may take

many lives as GR has put it There is a sloka ,I think it is attributed

to Hanuman, but I am not sure, perhaps KVG or someone might know, It

goes like this:' dehabuddhyaa thu daasoham jeevabuddhyaa thvadhamsakah,athmabuddhyaa

thvamevaaham ithi me nischitha mathih.'This means, 'when I think of

myself as an embodied being I am your servant. When I see consider

myself as an individual soul I am part ofyou. But when I think of

myself as the Athman I am one with you.This is my firm conviction."But

the first step towards the blossoming of bhakthi into paraabhakthi is

trying to see the Lord as not only limited in the particular form of

worship and trying to see Him beyond the form and name.This will

finally result in the perception of vaasudevassarvam.Of course his

may may take many janma. But a devotee who has become a prapanna is not

worried on that score. He has surrendered to the Lord and thus it

becomes the burden of HIm to lead the prapanna by hand. The culmination

of bhakthi results only when there is complete merging with theLord, as

Bhagavatha says 'those who love Hari ,indeed lose themselves in Hari,

yaanthi thanmayathaam Hareh.'The love of the gopis of Krishna is

described by the Lord Himself as'Yathaa samaadhou munayo abdhithoye

nadhyah pravishtaa iva naamarupe,just as the sages absorbed in samadhi

and the rivers that enter the ocean are not distinguised by name and

form.'

Thus the love of Godis nothing but the love of the absolute

reality or the innerself of man which appears in theinitial stages as

something different and infinitely superior. Spiritual progress thus

begins with separating God from the individual soul as the one

possessed of infinite auspicious qualities, anathakalyanagunavisishta,

and gradually the devotee acquires the knowledge that he is the part

and parcel of the Lord and finally realisesHim as his own inner

self.This is paraabhakthi and after attaining it also sages lik eNarada

kee their individuality at will in order to enjoy the bliss of the

Divine Self as it is better to taste sugar than to become one with it.

But it is their will to do so and they can enjoy Him in bothways eithir

by merging or by being separate.

Saroja ramanujam

"K.V Gopalakrishna" <gopalakrishna.kv >