[Guruvayur/Guruvayoor] Re:what happens after getting moksh

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri. Ganapathy Ramanji, More or less you have mentioned here about the Sayujya liberation where-in the individual soul 'merges' into the Supreme soul. But I think you have not mentioned about the other kinds of liberation which a pure devotee of the Lord automatically gets, even though a pure devotee of Krishna is not hankering even after liberation.. As metioned by Srila Kapiladeva to His mother Srimati Devahuti: --- { naikatmatam me sprhayanti kecin mat-pada-sevabhirata mad-ihah ye 'nyonyato bhagavatah prasajya sabhajayante mama paurusani SYNONYMS na--never; eka-atmatam--merging into oneness; me--My; sprhayanti--they desire; kecit--any;

mat-pada-seva--the service of My lotus feet; abhiratah--engaged in; mat-ihah--endeavoring to attain Me; ye--those who; anyonyatah--mutually; bhagavatah--pure devotees; prasajya--assembling; sabhajayante--glorify; mama--My; paurusani--glorious activities. TRANSLATION A pure devotee, who is attached to the activities of devotional service and who always engages in the service of My lotus feet, never desires to become one with Me. Such a devotee, who is unflinchingly engaged, always glorifies My pastimes and activities. - http://vedabase.net/sb/3/25/34/en } --- And the different kinds of liberation is mentioned in this verse, as mentioned by Srila Kapiladeva to His mother Srimati Devahuti: --- { salokya-sarsti-samipya- sarupyaikatvam apy uta diyamanam na grhnanti vina mat-sevanam janah SYNONYMS salokya--living on the same planet; sarsti--having the same opulence;

samipya--to be a personal associate; sarupya--having the same bodily features; ekatvam--oneness; api--also; uta--even; diyamanam--being offered; na--not; grhnanti--do accept; vina--without; mat--My; sevanam--devotional service; janah--pure devotees. TRANSLATION A pure devotee does not accept any kind of liberation--salokya, sarsti, samipya, sarupya or ekatva--even though they are offered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. - http://vedabase.net/sb/3/29/13/en } --- Also, the point you mentioned regarding Gurudeva himself coming in search of individual soul is rarely found in the scriptures. Example is that of Srila Parikshit Maharaja, who is already a nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) devotee of Krishna. But for the general people, who are not on that level, there has to be a conscious effort on their part to approach a bona fide Guru. As mentioned by Shree Krishna to Arjuna in Bhagavad-Gita: { tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena

sevaya upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah SYNONYMS tat--that knowledge of different sacrifices; viddhi--try to understand; pranipatena--by approaching a spiritual master; pariprasnena--by submissive inquiries; sevaya--by the rendering of service; upadeksyanti--initiate; te--unto you; jnanam--knowledge; jnaninah--the self-realized; tattva--truth; darsinah--the seers. TRANSLATION Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire

from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth. - http://asitis.com/4/34.html } These are just the points that came to my mind when I read your posting. Apologies, if I have said something wrong. Shree Krishna Sharnam Mama! ~Krishnadasa. GANAPATHY RAMAN <agraman62 wrote: I agree with you Mrs.Ramanujam.As I was away for some months I could not contact you which I hv infmed you earlier.Happy also to note that now you are well after the eye operation. Now what I understand about Moksha or Self Realization is that we accept that there is only Brahman and all things form part of that Primal Energy.But to get back into that source the human beings had to undergo experiences over several births and deaths and by breaking this cycle we reach the Ultimate Goal.For that one shuld shed ego,desires,jealousy etc and lead a disciplined and spiritual life.This does not mean that one shuld not hv desires which is not possible but attachment to desires will lead to a chain and create more desires and thus the karmic

effects also will continue which act as a block to the Self to reach the aim of Realization.For that bhakthy,absolute faith in the Universal Power,dedication,devotion etc are all required.By these sadhanas the power which lies in every human beng in the form of serpent at the base of the spine now remaining dormant shuld be activated and the same can be done only by few and can be raised by the Grace of a Guru who has already achieved great heights as otherwise it is risky.The awakened Kundalini power will traverse thru the various phlexes or chakras and over a period of continuous practice in meditation and yoga reaches the sahasrara chakra on the head and the seat of Brahman.When that stage is reached the body loses its consciousness and only the mind has the consciousness and absolute state of bliss or paramananda is enjoyed.Then there is no individual soul and only 'I'ness evefrywhere which is the quality of the Creator.When such stage is reached then there is no more birth or death as the karma effects are completely diluted and the individual soul gets dissolved in the Universal Soul I hv covered this many times earlier and only thru such process Knowledge is attained and the cycle of births and deaths come to an end. It is a long process which can't be achieved in some births but can be attained if the seed has already been sown in an earlier birth or sow now so that in the coming births the same will sprout and blossom and the goal can be achieved.It is not necessary to go in search of a Guru as when one gets matured on the line the Guru himself will come in search of such individual soul to guide and goad on the right path to achieve the goal.This is applicabke to all disciplines whether advaita,dvaita. I don't know whether I am correct in my perception but

this is what I hv learnt from some realised soul. Hare Krishna, agraman.Saroja Ramanujam <sarojram18 > wrote: Moksha means release.Mukthi also means the same Release from what? From the bondage of karma.The cycle of birth and death is due to karma and by following the path of spirituality outlined in the Gita namely, karamyoga, jnanayoga and bhakthiyoga, no matter which path you follow, they all lead to the same goal. All the paths converge in one place and there need be no debate as to which one to follow.Realisation of one's true nature removes the egocentric impulses which are the cause of desire motivated action resulting in bondage and rebirth.This is what Krishna advises Arjuna in the second chapter by the description of sthithaprajna, the man of

wisdom.Knowledge or jnana may precede karmayoga which is strengthened by bhakthi. When one attains moksha there is no more rebirth. But what will be the experience then? Though different schools of philosophy define moksha differently, the point on which they all agree is that there is unconditioned bliss in the state of release. Swam Chinmayananda has given the quotient of happiness, which I have explained in my posts on GIta,"panchajanyam hrishikesah." When you feel happy about some pleasant event like birth of a child it is because that particular desire is fulfilled and you stay happy until the next desire arises. So the real happiness is the state of mind between one desire and other when there is no desire.So if you can elongate that state your happiness is lengthened.This proves that it is desirelessness and not fulfilment of desire that produces happiness.The desires spring from ego which differentiates the individual self from the real

self, which is of the nature of pure unalloyed bliss.This is moksha. Whether the individual self merges with Brahman, as advaita claims or it retains its identity not as such but as the part of the infinite as made out in Visishtadvaita or the individual soul remains doifferent but as the servant of God as in Dvaita, the bliissexperienced is infinite and everlasting due to the absence of ego. I am willing to answer any questions on this topic if the above explanation does not sound clear enough. saroja Ramanujam . Dr. Saroja Ramanujam, M.A., Ph.D, Siromani in sanskrit. web address: http://www.geocities.com/sarojram18 http://freewebs.com/gitaclass Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out

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[Guest guest]

HARI AUM

 

Do we have to worry WHAT HAPPENS even after getting MOKSH ?

 

Regards,

NB Nair.

 

 

guruvayur , " Sunil Menon " <menon_sunil wrote:

>

> Dear Sarojaji,

> Good to see your posting again. We missed your presence and wisdom.

> Om Namo Narayanaya:

> Sunil.

>

>

>

> guruvayur , Saroja Ramanujam <sarojram18@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sunil and others,

> > My eyes are almost back to nomal tough it will be sometime before I

> do my regular posting but now n my computer is out of order. I am

> typing this from a friend;s house. I will give my views on moksha and

> what it means when my computer is repaired.

> > saroja Ramanujam

> >

> > balagopal ramakrishnan <rbalpal@> wrote:

> HARI AUM

> >

> > SwamiChitmayanandji's disourses of the Gita has been

> > insisting that the different 'yogas' are to be mixed

> > and matched as any one single yoga is not complete in

> > itself. To gain knowledge 'action' is a must and only

> > when the 'knowledge' matures 'bhakthi' appears. The

> > 'bhakthi' as a 'yoga' comes after 'karma' and 'jnana'.

> > Practise of religion, chanting bhajans, mantras etc

> > are not be confused with the 'bhakthi' at the 'yoga'

> > level but a way to better once 'karma' which will

> > help him mature the 'jnana' that he acquires in the

> > process.

> >

> > Regards

> >

> > Balagopal

> >

> > NARAYANA NARAYANA NARAYANA

> > --- Sunil Menon <menon_sunil@> wrote:

> >

> > > Sree,

> > >

> > > Depending upon the school of philosophy (Dwaita,

> > > Advaita, Vaishnava

> > > etc) you follow, the technical definition of

> > > 'Moksha' varies. But to

> > > commoners like me, the simplistic explanation is as

> > > follows-

> > >

> > > Moksha or Mukti is the liberation from the cycle of

> > > death and rebirth

> > > and the end to suffering and limitation of worldly

> > > existence.

> > >

> > > Liberation occurs when the individual soul

> > > (Jeevatma) dissolves with

> > > the universal soul (Paramatma) or Brahman.

> > >

> > > So, at the state of Moksha, individual soul

> > > dissolves in ParamAtma and

> > > our soul cease to exist and becomes a part of the

> > > universal 'oneness'.

> > >

> > > Self-realization (Aatma jnana) is the key to Moksha.

> > >

> > > There are four ways to self realization; Karma Yoga,

> > > Bhakti Yoga,

> > > Jnana Yoga, and Raja Yoga.

> > >

> > > And one must achieve Moksha on his or her own.

> > >

> > > I request all learned ones to elaborate more.

> > >

> > > Om Namo Narayanaya:

> > > Sunil.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > guruvayur , " sreedhar c.p "

> > > <sreepal20@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hare Krishna,

> > > >

> > > > Any learned person can assist to find the answer

> > > for below Question?

> > > >

> > > > With Love,

> > > > Sree

> > > >

> > > > Vikrant <free_for_blue@> wrote:

> > > > i have a seriouse question that is

> > > been going in my mind

> > > since long.......

> > > > when one cuts the cycle of death and re-birth and

> > > gets moksh or

> > > mukti then what happens...then what happens to the

> > > atman(the

> > > soul)....if one knows that this is his last physical

> > > life in this

> > > world and he will not be born again since he has now

> > > cut/stop the

> > > cycle of death & re-birth.....then what happens

> > > after this life to the

> > > soul....in this specific case where does the soul go

> > > after leaving the

> > > body...does it get dissolved in the cosmic universe

> > > or what...what is

> > > the final resting place or final destination for the

> > > atman(the soul)

> > > in the infinite universe considering the scenario i

> > > gave now...

> > > > any views ...

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Vikrant

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Be a PS3 game guru.

> > > > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and

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> > > >

> > > > Answers - Get better answers from someone

> > > who knows. Tryit now.

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > ________

> > India Answers: Share what you know. Learn something new

> > http://in.answers./

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Dr. Saroja Ramanujam, M.A., Ph.D, Siromani in

> sanskrit.

> > web address: http://www.geocities.com/sarojram18

> > http://freewebs.com/gitaclass

> >

> >

> >

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[Guest guest]

Moksha is the ultimate state of realisation and there are no different kinds of Moksha. What Ganapathyraman said is absolutely correct.It is attaining brahman, even attaining is only a relative term as the individual soul in its essence is only Brahman only it does not realises it due to ignorance which is the cause of bondage.Upanishads cite various examples to explain this such as the tenthman, neck ornament, the son of a king etc. and thatis why it is called realisation.I will come to it later. Brahman is the supremereality, call Him Krishna or Narayana or by which ever name you prefer.Devotees prefer to retain their individuality out of choice as a realised soul has the power to merge or be separate whenever they want to as Hanuman told Rama,'dheha buddhyA thu dhAsoham jeevabuddhyA thvadhamsakah AthmabuddhyA thvamevAham." This is what the difference in the concept of Moksha according to advaita visishtadvaita and dvaitha.The bhakthas

prefer to maintain their individuality even after getting moksha because they want to experience the joy of serving the Lord. Sayujya sameepya salokya saroopya are the different experiences at different times of a realised soul and not different states.The devotee is not hankering aer liberation because he enjoys the union with the Lord while being here itself and the samsara does not bother him but the Lord will not leave him at that state being the paramakrpanidhi and will release him from bondage. Moksha comes to a bhaktha unasked. This is where the difference lies in the different paths like karmayoga, jnanayoga etc. What Ganapathyraman described is that of rajayoga where one aspires for release through one's own effort and that cannot be done without a guru. It is also perfectly true that to the one who is sincere and aspiring in earnest the Lord himself sends a guru. Parikshit is the best example of this.The sloka quoted by you thadviddhi

praNipAthEna etc. is the advice after you get a guru. Krishna never said that you have to go in search of a guru and find one.You can only pray to the Lord to send you one.Whneh he comes you will kniow that heis the one for you and will not waver from one to another anymore.This has happened to me and I can say that with conviction. coming to the examples I cited earlier, 1.Tenth man- Ten men were crossing the rier and on reaching the shore they counted to see whether every one has come ashore and each one counted leaving himself and they all started crying thinking that one is lost.A wise man came there and pointedout to them their mistake and they realises that the tenth man was there all the time among them thogh they didinot realise it. Like wise you are everfree as your essence is Brahman, your innesmost soul but like the ten men you are covered with ignorance and do not realise it. 2.One was lamenting about the loss of his neck

ornament till another pointed out that he was wearing it all the time. This will make sense to those who have searched for their specs while it is on the top of their head!This means that we are endowed with the bliss of Brahman all the time but feel the grief of samsara due to ignorance resulting in the wrong identifiction of the self with body etc. 3.The king's son- The son of king was lost in a forest and was brought up by the hunters and thought that he was one of them until a minister of the king happened to meet him and recognised him and revealed his true identity of him. Then the prince knew who he was. Similarly the guru reveals the true identity of the self and the ignorance born out of wrong identfication vanishes.But this happens only after realisation born out of the guidance from the guru, who shows the right path and to go along or not is left to the individual and depends on his intensity of desire to reach the

goal. When everything is said and done, It is not possible to describe moksha except to say that it is a state of unalloyed bliss, brahmanandha.In tamil it is said 'kandavar vindilar vindavar kandilar.' It means those who reached the state of release never came back to tell us what it is and those who cme back have not reached it yet.Still out of mercy for the suffering mankind the sages of yore have tried to explain it by upanishads etc,in order to give man an idea about what it would be when you get rid of the ills of samsara and also how to do it.IT is something like explaining the taste of honey to one who has never experienced it, which he will know only when he tastes it.Moreover the state of realisation comes only when you transcend the body, mind and intellect and so it cannot be understood through intellect. Hanece I full agree with another member who has remarked that whether it is necessary to argue and worry over moksha now because it

is like people who never reached the top arguing over what is at the top of the stairs while standing at the lowest step.One may have gone up a few steps higher but still he is at the bottom only.We are like athletes preparing for the olympics and have to concentrate on the rigours of training and discipline and let us not worry about what we will do when we have won the gold medal. When you come to it you will know well enough as the upahishadic statement biDhyathE hrdhayagrThih chidhyanthe sarvasamsayAh ksheeyanthe asya karn mANi thasmin dhrshte paravare When and only when one has the experience of the supreme, all the knots of his heart are loosened, all his doubts vanish and all his karma end. Krishna Dasa

<krishnadasa77 wrote: Dear Sri. Ganapathy Ramanji, More or less you have mentioned here about the Sayujya liberation where-in the individual soul 'merges' into the Supreme soul. But I think you have not mentioned about the other kinds of liberation which a pure devotee of the Lord automatically gets, even though a pure devotee of Krishna is not hankering even after liberation.. . Dr. Saroja Ramanujam, M.A., Ph.D, Siromani in sanskrit. web address: http://www.geocities.com/sarojram18 http://freewebs.com/gitaclass

Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Games.

[Guest guest]

Dear Sarojaji, I agree with your conclusion: "We are like athletes preparing for the olympics and have to concentrate on the rigours of training and discipline and let us not worry about what we will do when we have won the gold medal. When you come to it you will know well enough as the upahishadic statement biDhyathE hrdhayagrThih chidhyanthe sarvasamsayAh ksheeyanthe asya karn mANi thasmin dhrshte paravare When and only when one has the experience of the supreme, all the knots of his heart are loosened, all his doubts vanish and all his karma end. " Is the shloka you have quoted above coming from Srimad-Bhagavatam, or is it in some other scripture? Because, in Srimad-Bhagavatam also there is a similar shloka which is: { bhidyate hrdaya-granthis chidyante sarva-samsayah ksiyante casya karmani drsta evatmanisvare " Thus the knot in the heart is pierced, and all misgivings are cut to pieces. The chain of fruitive actions is terminated when one sees the self as master." - SB 1.2.21 - http://vedabase.net/sb/1/2/21/en } Shree Krishna Sharanam Mama! ~Krishnadasa. Saroja Ramanujam <sarojram18 wrote: Moksha is the ultimate state of realisation and there are no different kinds of Moksha. What Ganapathyraman said is absolutely correct.It is attaining brahman, even attaining is only a relative term as the individual soul in its essence is only Brahman only it does not realises it due to ignorance which is the cause of bondage.Upanishads cite various examples to explain this such as the tenthman, neck ornament, the son of a king etc. and thatis why it is called realisation.I will come to it later. Brahman is the supremereality, call Him Krishna or Narayana or by which ever name you prefer.Devotees prefer to retain their individuality out of choice as a realised soul has the power to merge or be separate whenever they want to as Hanuman told Rama,'dheha buddhyA thu dhAsoham jeevabuddhyA thvadhamsakah AthmabuddhyA thvamevAham." This is what the

difference in the concept of Moksha according to advaita visishtadvaita and dvaitha.The bhakthas prefer to maintain their individuality even after getting moksha because they want to experience the joy of serving the Lord. Sayujya sameepya salokya saroopya are the different experiences at different times of a realised soul and not different states.The devotee is not hankering aer liberation because he enjoys the union with the Lord while being here itself and the samsara does not bother him but the Lord will not leave him at that state being the paramakrpanidhi and will release him from bondage. Moksha comes to a bhaktha unasked. This is where the difference lies in the different paths like karmayoga, jnanayoga etc. What Ganapathyraman described is that of rajayoga where one aspires for release through one's own effort and that cannot be done without a guru. It is also perfectly true that to the one who is sincere and aspiring in earnest the Lord himself

sends a guru. Parikshit is the best example of this.The sloka quoted by you thadviddhi praNipAthEna etc. is the advice after you get a guru. Krishna never said that you have to go in search of a guru and find one.You can only pray to the Lord to send you one.Whneh he comes you will kniow that heis the one for you and will not waver from one to another anymore.This has happened to me and I can say that with conviction. coming to the examples I cited earlier, 1.Tenth man- Ten men were crossing the rier and on reaching the shore they counted to see whether every one has come ashore and each one counted leaving himself and they all started crying thinking that one is lost.A wise man came there and pointedout to them their mistake and they realises that the tenth man was there all the time among them thogh they didinot realise it. Like wise you are everfree as your essence is Brahman, your innesmost soul but like the ten men you are covered with

ignorance and do not realise it. 2.One was lamenting about the loss of his neck ornament till another pointed out that he was wearing it all the time. This will make sense to those who have searched for their specs while it is on the top of their head!This means that we are endowed with the bliss of Brahman all the time but feel the grief of samsara due to ignorance resulting in the wrong identifiction of the self with body etc. 3.The king's son- The son of king was lost in a forest and was brought up by the hunters and thought that he was one of them until a minister of the king happened to meet him and recognised him and revealed his true identity of him. Then the prince knew who he was. Similarly the guru reveals the true identity of the self and the ignorance born out of wrong identfication vanishes.But this happens only after realisation born out of the guidance from the guru, who shows the right path and to go

along or not is left to the individual and depends on his intensity of desire to reach the goal. When everything is said and done, It is not possible to describe moksha except to say that it is a state of unalloyed bliss, brahmanandha.In tamil it is said 'kandavar vindilar vindavar kandilar.' It means those who reached the state of release never came back to tell us what it is and those who cme back have not reached it yet.Still out of mercy for the suffering mankind the sages of yore have tried to explain it by upanishads etc,in order to give man an idea about what it would be when you get rid of the ills of samsara and also how to do it.IT is something like explaining the taste of honey to one who has never experienced it, which he will know only when he tastes it.Moreover the state of realisation comes only when you transcend the body, mind and intellect and so it cannot be understood through intellect. Hanece I full agree with another

member who has remarked that whether it is necessary to argue and worry over moksha now because it is like people who never reached the top arguing over what is at the top of the stairs while standing at the lowest step.One may have gone up a few steps higher but still he is at the bottom only.We are like athletes preparing for the olympics and have to concentrate on the rigours of training and discipline and let us not worry about what we will do when we have won the gold medal. When you come to it you will know well enough as the upahishadic statement biDhyathE hrdhayagrThih chidhyanthe sarvasamsayAh ksheeyanthe asya karn mANi thasmin dhrshte paravare When and only when one has the experience of the supreme, all the knots of his heart are loosened, all his doubts vanish and all his karma end. Krishna Dasa <krishnadasa77 > wrote: Dear Sri. Ganapathy Ramanji, More or less you have mentioned here about the Sayujya liberation where-in the individual soul 'merges' into the Supreme soul. But I think you have not mentioned about the other kinds of liberation which a pure devotee of the Lord automatically gets, even though a pure devotee of Krishna is not hankering even after liberation.. . Dr. Saroja Ramanujam, M.A., Ph.D, Siromani in sanskrit. web address: http://www.geocities.com/sarojram18 http://freewebs.com/gitaclass Boardwalk

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Very well said Vijayaji. Rather than discussing about other things like the world-affairs etc., it's many times better that we discuss the spiritual topic like Moksha. At least, it will improve a little bit of our spiritual knowledge and help us understand different perspectives. Shree Krishna Sharanam Mama! ~Krishnadasa.vijayav47 <no_reply > wrote: I too agree with Mr.Nair.We need not worry;but getting knowledge aboutthe topic.It is interesting to read

the views and angles of the greatpeople like Swami Dayananda Saraswathy,Swami Chinmayanandaji ,ourSarojaji and all guruvayur , "nbnair2000" <nbnair2000 wrote:>> HARI AUM> > Do we have to worry WHAT HAPPENS even after getting MOKSH ?> > Regards,> NB Nair.> > > guruvayur , "Sunil Menon" <menon_sunil@> wrote:> >> > Dear Sarojaji,> > Good to see your posting again. We missed your presence and wisdom. > > Om Namo Narayanaya:> > Sunil.> > > > > > > > guruvayur , Saroja Ramanujam <sarojram18@>wrote:> > >> > > Dear

Sunil and others,> > > My eyes are almost back to nomal tough it will be sometime before I> > do my regular posting but now n my computer is out of order. I am> > typing this from a friend;s house. I will give my views on moksha and> > what it means when my computer is repaired.> > > saroja Ramanujam> > > > > > balagopal ramakrishnan <rbalpal@> wrote: > > HARI AUM> > > > > > SwamiChitmayanandji's disourses of the Gita has been> > > insisting that the different 'yogas' are to be mixed> > > and matched as any one single yoga is not complete in> > > itself. To gain knowledge 'action' is a must and only> > > when the 'knowledge' matures 'bhakthi' appears. The> > > 'bhakthi' as a 'yoga' comes after 'karma' and 'jnana'.> > > Practise of religion, chanting bhajans, mantras

etc> > > are not be confused with the 'bhakthi' at the 'yoga'> > > level but a way to better once 'karma' which will> > > help him mature the 'jnana' that he acquires in the> > > process.> > > > > > Regards> > > > > > Balagopal> > > > > > NARAYANA NARAYANA NARAYANA> > > --- Sunil Menon <menon_sunil@> wrote:> > > > > > > Sree,> > > > > > > > Depending upon the school of philosophy (Dwaita,> > > > Advaita, Vaishnava> > > > etc) you follow, the technical definition of> > > > 'Moksha' varies. But to> > > > commoners like me, the simplistic explanation is as> > > > follows-> > > > > > > > Moksha or Mukti is the liberation from the cycle of> > >

> death and rebirth> > > > and the end to suffering and limitation of worldly> > > > existence.> > > > > > > > Liberation occurs when the individual soul> > > > (Jeevatma) dissolves with> > > > the universal soul (Paramatma) or Brahman.> > > > > > > > So, at the state of Moksha, individual soul> > > > dissolves in ParamAtma and> > > > our soul cease to exist and becomes a part of the> > > > universal 'oneness'.> > > > > > > > Self-realization (Aatma jnana) is the key to Moksha.> > > > > > > > There are four ways to self realization; Karma Yoga,> > > > Bhakti Yoga,> > > > Jnana Yoga, and Raja Yoga.> > > > > > > > And one must achieve Moksha on his or her own.> >

> > > > > > I request all learned ones to elaborate more.> > > > > > > > Om Namo Narayanaya:> > > > Sunil.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > guruvayur , "sreedhar c.p"> > > > <sreepal20@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Hare Krishna,> > > > >> > > > > Any learned person can assist to find the answer> > > > for below Question?> > > > >> > > > > With Love,> > > > > Sree> > > > >> > > > > Vikrant <free_for_blue@> wrote:> > > > > i have a seriouse question that is> > > > been going in my mind> > > > since

long.......> > > > > when one cuts the cycle of death and re-birth and> > > > gets moksh or> > > > mukti then what happens...then what happens to the> > > > atman(the> > > > soul)....if one knows that this is his last physical> > > > life in this> > > > world and he will not be born again since he has now> > > > cut/stop the> > > > cycle of death & re-birth.....then what happens> > > > after this life to the> > > > soul....in this specific case where does the soul go> > > > after leaving the> > > > body...does it get dissolved in the cosmic universe> > > > or what...what is> > > > the final resting place or final destination for the> > > > atman(the soul)> > > > in the infinite universe

considering the scenario i> > > > gave now...> > > > > any views ...> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Vikrant> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Be a PS3 game guru.> > > > > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and> > > > previews at> > > > Games.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Answers - Get better answers from someone> > > > who knows. Tryit now.> > > > >> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________> > > India Answers: Share what you know. Learn something new> > > http://in.answers./> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Saroja Ramanujam, M.A., Ph.D, Siromani in> > sanskrit.> > > web address: http://www.geocities.com/sarojram18> > > http://freewebs.com/gitaclass> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Finding fabulous fares is fun.> > > Let FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find> > flight and hotel bargains.> > >> >> Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Answers - Check it out.

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Dear Krishnadasa, I must appreciate your deep thoughts abt liberation and other things.One can chant Krishna or any deity of one's choice,do service etc throughout one's life but will that guarantee that once the life leaves the body the same service etc will continue in the succeeding births and with what authority one can say that the devotee will go on serving the Lord when he or she does not know where the atma will go after leaving the body?Will the recitation of nama and other services will take one to the place of absolute bliss?We can guess so many things out of our love for a certain deity but where is the guarantee that we will continue the same afterwards when the life goes out?That is why it is emphsisied only thru sadhanas which includes bhakthy as the basis,then dhyana and other disciplines which all will lead one to Knowledge or Gyana and one will come

to know that after all the the eternal Atma is residing in himself or herself only.When the God is within oneself instead of trying to find out the source just meandering here and there is absolute foolishness and this is what all the seers say.So if one has to attain the state of absolute bliss which is everlasting one has to find the God within oneself and not outside. Spriritual subject is such a complicated one that it is not so easy as one imagine to digest at will.Just by reading books one can't get any knowledge in spirituality as the same has to be experienced by one by himself or herself.For that the foundation must be made strong by bhakthy marga initially,then dhyana and other methods so as to kindle the energy within oneself and when that maturity comes and if the aspirant is earnest about spiritual enligtenment,the Lord sees to it that a Guru will be sent to guide the devotee by

making him to come in contact with the enlightened one.Till that time one has to continue one's sadhana and the the so called running after Gurus won't carry one any far as it is very difficult to find an enlightened soul.This is meant only for those who are interested to get expereiences in the higher realm of spirituality and not to those who think by chanting,serving the Lord will give them the supposed Bliss or Paramananda.It is only wishful thinking according to me. Since from the mail I understand that you are harping on a particular notion there is no meaning in explaining further as I am not interested in argument for argument's sake and the mental set up of the person being such it is futile to take such a course.One can take a horse to a stream but twenty can't make the horse to drink the water. This is not meant to offend your views but as I know your mind more than anybody you

can carry on with your convictions as nothing can be forced on anybody by any compulsive versions.I don't hv any ill will against you that requires your apology.You said your thoughts and I that of mine.That is all as both of us are not well versed in this matter and so you follow your path,I that of mine.Perhaps after some time you may get more understanding abt all these and may or may not change the attitude and till that time continue with your present method of devotion and there is absolutely nothing wrong as the Lord belongs to all as Krishna said the sinner,devotee,believer,non believer all belong to Him only as He is the all pervading Cosmic Energy.To be frank I don't hv much idea abt the scriptures and your quotes and hence I can't make any comment on them.God Bless. agraman. Krishna Dasa

<krishnadasa77 wrote: Dear Sri. Ganapathy Ramanji, More or less you have mentioned here about the Sayujya liberation where-in the individual soul 'merges' into the Supreme soul. But I think you have not mentioned about the other kinds of liberation which a pure devotee of the Lord automatically gets, even though a pure devotee of Krishna is not hankering even after liberation.. As metioned by Srila Kapiladeva to His mother Srimati Devahuti: --- { naikatmatam me sprhayanti kecin mat-pada-sevabhirata mad-ihah ye 'nyonyato bhagavatah prasajya sabhajayante mama

paurusani SYNONYMS na--never; eka-atmatam--merging into oneness; me--My; sprhayanti--they desire; kecit--any; mat-pada-seva--the service of My lotus feet; abhiratah--engaged in; mat-ihah--endeavoring to attain Me; ye--those who; anyonyatah--mutually; bhagavatah--pure devotees; prasajya--assembling; sabhajayante--glorify; mama--My; paurusani--glorious activities. TRANSLATION A pure devotee, who is attached to the activities of devotional service and who always engages in the service of My lotus feet, never desires to become one with Me. Such a devotee, who is unflinchingly engaged, always glorifies My pastimes and activities. - http://vedabase.net/sb/3/25/34/en } --- And the different kinds of liberation is mentioned in this verse, as mentioned by

Srila Kapiladeva to His mother Srimati Devahuti: --- { salokya-sarsti-samipya- sarupyaikatvam apy uta diyamanam na grhnanti

vina mat-sevanam janah SYNONYMS salokya--living on the same planet; sarsti--having the same opulence; samipya--to be a personal associate; sarupya--having the same bodily features; ekatvam--oneness; api--also; uta--even; diyamanam--being offered; na--not; grhnanti--do accept; vina--without; mat--My; sevanam--devotional service; janah--pure devotees. TRANSLATION A pure devotee does not accept any kind of liberation--salokya, sarsti, samipya, sarupya or ekatva--even though they are offered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. - http://vedabase.net/sb/3/29/13/en } --- Also, the point you mentioned regarding Gurudeva himself coming in search of individual soul is rarely found in the scriptures. Example is

that of Srila Parikshit Maharaja, who is already a nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) devotee of Krishna. But for the general people, who are not on that level, there has to be a conscious effort on their part to approach a bona fide Guru. As mentioned by Shree Krishna to Arjuna in Bhagavad-Gita: { tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah SYNONYMS tat--that knowledge of

different sacrifices; viddhi--try to understand; pranipatena--by approaching a spiritual master; pariprasnena--by submissive inquiries; sevaya--by the rendering of service; upadeksyanti--initiate; te--unto you; jnanam--knowledge; jnaninah--the self-realized; tattva--truth; darsinah--the seers. TRANSLATION Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth. - http://asitis.com/4/34.html } These are just the points that came to my mind when I read your posting. Apologies, if I have said something wrong. Shree Krishna Sharnam Mama! ~Krishnadasa. GANAPATHY RAMAN <agraman62 (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote: I agree with you Mrs.Ramanujam.As I was away for some months I could not contact you which I hv infmed you earlier.Happy also to note that now you are well after the eye operation. Now what I understand about Moksha or Self Realization is that we accept that there is only Brahman and all things form part of that Primal Energy.But to get back into that source the human beings had to undergo experiences over several births

and deaths and by breaking this cycle we reach the Ultimate Goal.For that one shuld shed ego,desires,jealousy etc and lead a disciplined and spiritual life.This does not mean that one shuld not hv desires which is not possible but attachment to desires will lead to a chain and create more desires and thus the karmic effects also will continue which act as a block to the Self to reach the aim of Realization.For that bhakthy,absolute faith in the Universal Power,dedication,devotion etc are all required.By these sadhanas the power which lies in every human beng in the form of serpent at the base of the spine now remaining dormant shuld be activated and the same can be done only by few and can be raised by the Grace of a Guru who has already achieved great heights as otherwise it is risky.The awakened Kundalini power will traverse thru the various phlexes or chakras and over a period

of continuous practice in meditation and yoga reaches the sahasrara chakra on the head and the seat of Brahman.When that stage is reached the body loses its consciousness and only the mind has the consciousness and absolute state of bliss or paramananda is enjoyed.Then there is no individual soul and only 'I'ness evefrywhere which is the quality of the Creator.When such stage is reached then there is no more birth or death as the karma effects are completely diluted and the individual soul gets dissolved in the Universal Soul I hv covered this many times earlier and only thru such process Knowledge is attained and the cycle of births and deaths come to an end. It is a long process which can't be achieved in some births but can be attained if the seed has already been sown in an earlier birth or sow now so that in the coming births the same will sprout and blossom and the goal can be

achieved.It is not necessary to go in search of a Guru as when one gets matured on the line the Guru himself will come in search of such individual soul to guide and goad on the right path to achieve the goal.This is applicabke to all disciplines whether advaita,dvaita. I don't know whether I am correct in my perception but this is what I hv learnt from some realised soul. Hare Krishna, agraman.Saroja Ramanujam <sarojram18 > wrote: Moksha means release.Mukthi also means the same Release from what? From the bondage of karma.The cycle of birth and death is due to karma and by following the path of spirituality outlined in the Gita namely, karamyoga, jnanayoga and bhakthiyoga, no matter which path you follow, they all lead to

the same goal. All the paths converge in one place and there need be no debate as to which one to follow.Realisation of one's true nature removes the egocentric impulses which are the cause of desire motivated action resulting in bondage and rebirth.This is what Krishna advises Arjuna in the second chapter by the description of sthithaprajna, the man of wisdom.Knowledge or jnana may precede karmayoga which is strengthened by bhakthi. When one attains moksha there is no more rebirth. But what will be the experience then? Though different schools of philosophy define moksha differently, the point on which they all agree is that there is unconditioned bliss in the state of release. Swam Chinmayananda has given the quotient of happiness, which I have explained in my posts on GIta,"panchajanyam hrishikesah." When you feel happy about some pleasant event like birth of a child it is because that particular desire is fulfilled and you stay happy

until the next desire arises. So the real happiness is the state of mind between one desire and other when there is no desire.So if you can elongate that state your happiness is lengthened.This proves that it is desirelessness and not fulfilment of desire that produces happiness.The desires spring from ego which differentiates the individual self from the real self, which is of the nature of pure unalloyed bliss.This is moksha. Whether the individual self merges with Brahman, as advaita claims or it retains its identity not as such but as the part of the infinite as made out in Visishtadvaita or the individual soul remains doifferent but as the servant of God as in Dvaita, the bliissexperienced is infinite and everlasting due to the absence of ego. I am willing to answer any questions on this topic if the above explanation does not sound clear enough. saroja Ramanujam . Dr. Saroja Ramanujam, M.A., Ph.D, Siromani in sanskrit. web address: http://www.geocities.com/sarojram18 http://freewebs.com/gitaclass Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search. Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger./download.php Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with FareChase. Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Messenger. Download Now!

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The sloka is from Mundakaupanoshad whcih was reproduced in Bhagavatha.Krishna Dasa <krishnadasa77 wrote: Dear Sarojaji, I agree with your conclusion: "We are like athletes preparing for the olympics and have to concentrate on the rigours of training and discipline and let us not worry about what we will do when we have won the gold medal. When you come to it you will know well enough as the upahishadic statement biDhyathE hrdhayagrThih

chidhyanthe sarvasamsayAh ksheeyanthe asya karn mANi thasmin dhrshte paravare When and only when one has the experience of the supreme, all the knots of his heart are loosened, all his doubts vanish and all his karma end. " Is the shloka you have quoted above coming from Srimad-Bhagavatam, or is it in some other scripture? Because, in Srimad-Bhagavatam also there is a similar shloka which is: { bhidyate hrdaya-granthis chidyante sarva-samsayah ksiyante casya karmani drsta evatmanisvare " Thus the knot in the heart is pierced, and all misgivings are cut to pieces. The chain of fruitive actions is terminated when one sees the self as master." - SB 1.2.21 - http://vedabase.net/sb/1/2/21/en } Shree Krishna Sharanam

Mama! ~Krishnadasa. Saroja Ramanujam <sarojram18 > wrote: Moksha is the ultimate state of realisation and there are no different kinds of Moksha. What Ganapathyraman said is absolutely correct.It is attaining brahman, even attaining is only a relative term as the individual soul in its essence is only Brahman only it does not realises it due to ignorance which is the cause of bondage.Upanishads cite various examples to explain this such as the tenthman, neck ornament, the son of a king etc. and thatis why it is called realisation.I will come to it later. Brahman is the supremereality, call Him Krishna or Narayana or by which ever name you prefer.Devotees prefer to retain their individuality out of choice

as a realised soul has the power to merge or be separate whenever they want to as Hanuman told Rama,'dheha buddhyA thu dhAsoham jeevabuddhyA thvadhamsakah AthmabuddhyA thvamevAham." This is what the difference in the concept of Moksha according to advaita visishtadvaita and dvaitha.The bhakthas prefer to maintain their individuality even after getting moksha because they want to experience the joy of serving the Lord. Sayujya sameepya salokya saroopya are the different experiences at different times of a realised soul and not different states.The devotee is not hankering aer liberation because he enjoys the union with the Lord while being here itself and the samsara does not bother him but the Lord will not leave him at that state being the paramakrpanidhi and will release him from bondage. Moksha comes to a bhaktha unasked. This is where the difference lies in the different paths like karmayoga, jnanayoga etc. What Ganapathyraman described is

that of rajayoga where one aspires for release through one's own effort and that cannot be done without a guru. It is also perfectly true that to the one who is sincere and aspiring in earnest the Lord himself sends a guru. Parikshit is the best example of this.The sloka quoted by you thadviddhi praNipAthEna etc. is the advice after you get a guru. Krishna never said that you have to go in search of a guru and find one.You can only pray to the Lord to send you one.Whneh he comes you will kniow that heis the one for you and will not waver from one to another anymore.This has happened to me and I can say that with conviction. coming to the examples I cited earlier, 1.Tenth man- Ten men were crossing the rier and on reaching the shore they counted to see whether every one has come ashore and each one counted leaving himself and they all started crying thinking that one is lost.A wise man came there and pointedout to them their mistake and they

realises that the tenth man was there all the time among them thogh they didinot realise it. Like wise you are everfree as your essence is Brahman, your innesmost soul but like the ten men you are covered with ignorance and do not realise it. 2.One was lamenting about the loss of his neck ornament till another pointed out that he was wearing it all the time. This will make sense to those who have searched for their specs while it is on the top of their head!This means that we are endowed with the bliss of Brahman all the time but feel the grief of samsara due to ignorance resulting in the wrong identifiction of the self with body etc. 3.The king's son- The son of king was lost in a forest and was brought up by the hunters and thought that he was one of them until a minister of the king happened to meet him and recognised him and revealed his true identity of him. Then the prince knew who he was. Similarly the guru reveals the

true identity of the self and the ignorance born out of wrong identfication vanishes.But this happens only after realisation born out of the guidance from the guru, who shows the right path and to go along or not is left to the individual and depends on his intensity of desire to reach the goal. When everything is said and done, It is not possible to describe moksha except to say that it is a state of unalloyed bliss, brahmanandha.In tamil it is said 'kandavar vindilar vindavar kandilar.' It means those who reached the state of release never came back to tell us what it is and those who cme back have not reached it yet.Still out of mercy for the suffering mankind the sages of yore have tried to explain it by upanishads etc,in order to give man an idea about what it would be when you get rid of the ills of samsara and also how to do it.IT is something like explaining the taste of honey to one who has never experienced it, which he will know only when

he tastes it.Moreover the state of realisation comes only when you transcend the body, mind and intellect and so it cannot be understood through intellect. Hanece I full agree with another member who has remarked that whether it is necessary to argue and worry over moksha now because it is like people who never reached the top arguing over what is at the top of the stairs while standing at the lowest step.One may have gone up a few steps higher but still he is at the bottom only.We are like athletes preparing for the olympics and have to concentrate on the rigours of training and discipline and let us not worry about what we will do when we have won the gold medal. When you come to it you will know well enough as the upahishadic statement biDhyathE hrdhayagrThih chidhyanthe sarvasamsayAh ksheeyanthe asya karn mANi thasmin dhrshte paravare When and only when one has the experience of the supreme, all the knots of

his heart are loosened, all his doubts vanish and all his karma end. Krishna Dasa <krishnadasa77 > wrote: Dear Sri. Ganapathy Ramanji, More or less you have mentioned here about the Sayujya liberation where-in the individual soul 'merges' into the Supreme soul. But I think you have not mentioned about the other kinds of liberation which a pure devotee of the Lord automatically gets, even though a pure devotee of Krishna is not hankering even after liberation.. . Dr. Saroja Ramanujam, M.A., Ph.D, Siromani in sanskrit. web address: http://www.geocities.com/sarojram18 http://freewebs.com/gitaclass Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Games. Get the toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. Dr. Saroja Ramanujam, M.A., Ph.D, Siromani in sanskrit. web address: http://www.geocities.com/sarojram18 http://freewebs.com/gitaclass

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So you changed your opinion of not replying to Krishnadasa.I ventured to explain only to prevent this and I am surprised that you have not let the mAatter rst. Well It is your prorogative. I hope this will not set another crossfire i motion. saroja RamanujamGANAPATHY RAMAN <agraman62 wrote: Dear Krishnadasa, I must appreciate your deep thoughts abt liberation and other things.One can chant Krishna or any deity of one's choice,do service etc throughout

one's life but will that guarantee that once the life leaves the body the same service etc will continue in the succeeding births and with what authority one can say that the devotee will go on serving the Lord when he or she does not know where the atma will go after leaving the body?Will the recitation of nama and other services will take one to the place of absolute bliss?We can guess so many things out of our love for a certain deity but where is the guarantee that we will continue the same afterwards when the life goes out?That is why it is emphsisied only thru sadhanas which includes bhakthy as the basis,then dhyana and other disciplines which all will lead one to Knowledge or Gyana and one will come to know that after all the the eternal Atma is residing in himself or herself only.When the God is within oneself instead of trying to find out the source just meandering here and there

is absolute foolishness and this is what all the seers say.So if one has to attain the state of absolute bliss which is everlasting one has to find the God within oneself and not outside. Spriritual subject is such a complicated one that it is not so easy as one imagine to digest at will.Just by reading books one can't get any knowledge in spirituality as the same has to be experienced by one by himself or herself.For that the foundation must be made strong by bhakthy marga initially,then dhyana and other methods so as to kindle the energy within oneself and when that maturity comes and if the aspirant is earnest about spiritual enligtenment,the Lord sees to it that a Guru will be sent to guide the devotee by making him to come in contact with the enlightened one.Till that time one has to continue one's sadhana and the the so called running after Gurus won't carry one any far as it is very difficult to find an enlightened soul.This is meant only for those who are interested to get expereiences in the higher realm of spirituality and not to those who think by chanting,serving the Lord will give them the supposed Bliss or Paramananda.It is only wishful thinking according to me. Since from the mail I understand that you are harping on a particular notion there is no meaning in explaining further as I am not interested in argument for argument's sake and the mental set up of the person being such it is futile to take such a course.One can take a horse to a stream but twenty can't make the horse to drink the water. This is not meant to offend your views but as I know your mind more than anybody you can carry on with your convictions as nothing can be forced on anybody by any compulsive versions.I don't hv any ill will against you that requires your apology.You said

your thoughts and I that of mine.That is all as both of us are not well versed in this matter and so you follow your path,I that of mine.Perhaps after some time you may get more understanding abt all these and may or may not change the attitude and till that time continue with your present method of devotion and there is absolutely nothing wrong as the Lord belongs to all as Krishna said the sinner,devotee,believer,non believer all belong to Him only as He is the all pervading Cosmic Energy.To be frank I don't hv much idea abt the scriptures and your quotes and hence I can't make any comment on them.God Bless. agraman. Krishna Dasa <krishnadasa77 > wrote: Dear Sri.

Ganapathy Ramanji, More or less you have mentioned here about the Sayujya liberation where-in the individual soul 'merges' into the Supreme soul. But I think you have not mentioned about the other kinds of liberation which a pure devotee of the Lord automatically gets, even though a pure devotee of Krishna is not hankering even after liberation.. As metioned by Srila Kapiladeva to His mother Srimati Devahuti: --- { naikatmatam me sprhayanti kecin mat-pada-sevabhirata mad-ihah ye 'nyonyato bhagavatah prasajya sabhajayante mama paurusani SYNONYMS na--never; eka-atmatam--merging into oneness; me--My; sprhayanti--they desire;

kecit--any; mat-pada-seva--the service of My lotus feet; abhiratah--engaged in; mat-ihah--endeavoring to attain Me; ye--those who; anyonyatah--mutually; bhagavatah--pure devotees; prasajya--assembling; sabhajayante--glorify; mama--My; paurusani--glorious activities. TRANSLATION A pure devotee, who is attached to the activities of devotional service and who always engages in the service of My lotus feet, never desires to become one with Me. Such a devotee, who is unflinchingly engaged, always

glorifies My pastimes and activities. - http://vedabase.net/sb/3/25/34/en } --- And the different kinds of liberation is mentioned in this verse, as mentioned by Srila Kapiladeva to His mother Srimati Devahuti: --- { salokya-sarsti-samipya- sarupyaikatvam

apy uta diyamanam na grhnanti vina mat-sevanam janah SYNONYMS salokya--living on

the same planet; sarsti--having the same opulence; samipya--to be a personal associate; sarupya--having the same bodily features; ekatvam--oneness; api--also; uta--even; diyamanam--being offered; na--not; grhnanti--do accept; vina--without; mat--My; sevanam--devotional service; janah--pure devotees. TRANSLATION A pure devotee does not accept any kind of liberation--salokya, sarsti, samipya, sarupya or ekatva--even though they are offered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. - http://vedabase.net/sb/3/29/13/en } --- Also, the point you mentioned regarding Gurudeva himself coming in search of individual soul is rarely found in the scriptures. Example is that of Srila Parikshit Maharaja, who is already a nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) devotee of Krishna. But for the general people, who are not on that level, there has to be a conscious effort on their part to approach a bona fide Guru. As mentioned by Shree Krishna to Arjuna in Bhagavad-Gita: { tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah SYNONYMS tat--that knowledge of different sacrifices; viddhi--try to understand; pranipatena--by approaching a spiritual master; pariprasnena--by submissive inquiries; sevaya--by the rendering of service; upadeksyanti--initiate; te--unto you; jnanam--knowledge; jnaninah--the self-realized; tattva--truth; darsinah--the seers. TRANSLATION Just try to learn the truth by approaching a

spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth. - http://asitis.com/4/34.html } These are just the points that came to my mind when I read your posting. Apologies, if I have said something wrong. Shree Krishna Sharnam Mama! ~Krishnadasa. GANAPATHY RAMAN <agraman62 (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote: I agree with you Mrs.Ramanujam.As I was away for some months I could not contact you which I hv infmed you earlier.Happy also to note

that now you are well after the eye operation. Now what I understand about Moksha or Self Realization is that we accept that there is only Brahman and all things form part of that Primal Energy.But to get back into that source the human beings had to undergo experiences over several births and deaths and by breaking this cycle we reach the Ultimate Goal.For that one shuld shed ego,desires,jealousy etc and lead a disciplined and spiritual life.This does not mean that one shuld not hv desires which is not possible but attachment to desires will lead to a chain and create more desires and thus the karmic effects also will continue which act as a block to the Self to reach the aim of Realization.For that bhakthy,absolute faith in the Universal Power,dedication,devotion etc are all required.By these sadhanas the power which lies in every human beng in the form of

serpent at the base of the spine now remaining dormant shuld be activated and the same can be done only by few and can be raised by the Grace of a Guru who has already achieved great heights as otherwise it is risky.The awakened Kundalini power will traverse thru the various phlexes or chakras and over a period of continuous practice in meditation and yoga reaches the sahasrara chakra on the head and the seat of Brahman.When that stage is reached the body loses its consciousness and only the mind has the consciousness and absolute state of bliss or paramananda is enjoyed.Then there is no individual soul and only 'I'ness evefrywhere which is the quality of the Creator.When such stage is reached then there is no more birth or death as the karma effects are completely diluted and the individual soul gets dissolved in the Universal Soul I hv covered this many times earlier

and only thru such process Knowledge is attained and the cycle of births and deaths come to an end. It is a long process which can't be achieved in some births but can be attained if the seed has already been sown in an earlier birth or sow now so that in the coming births the same will sprout and blossom and the goal can be achieved.It is not necessary to go in search of a Guru as when one gets matured on the line the Guru himself will come in search of such individual soul to guide and goad on the right path to achieve the goal.This is applicabke to all disciplines whether advaita,dvaita. I don't know whether I am correct in my perception but this is what I hv learnt from some realised soul. Hare Krishna, agraman.Saroja Ramanujam <sarojram18 > wrote: Moksha means release.Mukthi also means the same Release from what? From the bondage of karma.The cycle of birth and death is due to karma and by following the path of spirituality outlined in the Gita namely, karamyoga, jnanayoga and bhakthiyoga, no matter which path you follow, they all lead to the same goal. All the paths converge in one place and there need be no debate as to which one to follow.Realisation of one's true nature removes the egocentric impulses which are the cause of desire motivated action resulting in bondage and rebirth.This is what Krishna advises Arjuna in the second chapter by the description of sthithaprajna, the man of wisdom.Knowledge or jnana may precede karmayoga which is strengthened by bhakthi. When one attains moksha there is no more rebirth. But what will be the experience then? Though different schools of philosophy define moksha differently, the point on which they all

agree is that there is unconditioned bliss in the state of release. Swam Chinmayananda has given the quotient of happiness, which I have explained in my posts on GIta,"panchajanyam hrishikesah." When you feel happy about some pleasant event like birth of a child it is because that particular desire is fulfilled and you stay happy until the next desire arises. So the real happiness is the state of mind between one desire and other when there is no desire.So if you can elongate that state your happiness is lengthened.This proves that it is desirelessness and not fulfilment of desire that produces happiness.The desires spring from ego which differentiates the individual self from the real self, which is of the nature of pure unalloyed bliss.This is moksha. Whether the individual self merges with Brahman, as advaita claims or it retains its identity not as such but as the part of the infinite as made out in Visishtadvaita or the

individual soul remains doifferent but as the servant of God as in Dvaita, the bliissexperienced is infinite and everlasting due to the absence of ego. I am willing to answer any questions on this topic if the above explanation does not sound clear enough. saroja Ramanujam . Dr. Saroja Ramanujam, M.A., Ph.D, Siromani in sanskrit. web address: http://www.geocities.com/sarojram18 http://freewebs.com/gitaclass Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.

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[Guest guest]

No problems Ganapathy Ramanji. Let's agree to disagree

cordially. Everyone is an individual and everyone has

his/her own propensity and nature and it is best for

everyone to respect each other's attitude.

 

I respect yours and I know that you respect mine.

 

Shree Krishna Sharanam Mama!

~Krishnadasa.

 

 

--- GANAPATHY RAMAN <agraman62 wrote:

 

> Dear Krishnadasa,

>

> I must appreciate your deep thoughts abt

> liberation and other things.One can chant Krishna or

> any deity of one's choice,do service etc throughout

> one's life

> but will that guarantee that once the life leaves

> the body the same service etc will continue in the

> succeeding births and with what authority one can

> say that

> the devotee will go on serving the Lord when he or

> she does not know where the atma will go after

> leaving the body?Will the recitation of nama and

> other services

> will take one to the place of absolute bliss?We

> can guess so many things out of our love for a

> certain deity but where is the guarantee that we

> will continue the same afterwards when the life goes

> out?That is why it is emphsisied only thru

> sadhanas which includes bhakthy as the basis,then

> dhyana and other

> disciplines which all will lead one to Knowledge

> or Gyana and one will come to know that after all

> the the eternal Atma is residing in himself or

> herself only.When the God is within oneself instead

> of trying to find out the source just

> meandering here and there is absolute foolishness

> and this is what all the seers

> say.So if one has to attain the state of absolute

> bliss which is everlasting one has to find the God

> within oneself and not outside.

>

> Spriritual subject is such a complicated one that

> it is not so easy as one imagine to digest at

> will.Just by reading books one can't get any

> knowledge in

> spirituality as the same has to be experienced by

> one by himself or herself.For that the foundation

> must be made strong by bhakthy marga initially,then

> dhyana and other methods so as to kindle the energy

> within oneself and when that maturity comes and if

> the aspirant is earnest about spiritual

> enligtenment,the

> Lord sees to it that a Guru will be sent to guide

> the devotee by making him to come in contact with

> the enlightened one.Till that time one has to

> continue one's sadhana and the the so called running

> after Gurus won't carry one any far as

> it is very difficult to find an enlightened

> soul.This is meant only for those who are

> interested to get expereiences in the higher realm

> of spirituality and not to those who think by

> chanting,serving the Lord will give them the

> supposed Bliss or

> Paramananda.It is only wishful thinking according

> to me.

> Since from the mail I understand that you are

> harping on a particular notion there is no meaning

> in explaining further as I am not interested in

> argument for argument's sake and the mental set up

> of the person being such it is futile to take such a

> course.One can take a horse to a stream but twenty

> can't make the

> horse to drink the water.

> This is not meant to offend your views but as I

> know your mind more than anybody you can carry on

> with your convictions as nothing can be forced on

> anybody by any compulsive versions.I don't hv any

> ill will against you that requires your apology.You

> said your thoughts and I that of mine.That is all as

> both of us are not well versed in this matter and so

> you follow your path,I that of mine.Perhaps after

> some time you may get more understanding abt all

> these and may or may not change the attitude and

> till that time continue with your present method of

> devotion and there is absolutely nothing wrong as

> the Lord

> belongs to all as Krishna said the

> sinner,devotee,believer,non believer all belong to

> Him only as He is the all pervading Cosmic Energy.To

> be frank I don't hv much idea abt the scriptures and

> your quotes and hence I can't make any comment on

> them.God Bless.

>

> agraman.

Krishna Dasa <krishnadasa77 wrote:

> Dear Sri. Ganapathy Ramanji,

>

> More or less you have mentioned here about the

> Sayujya liberation where-in the individual soul

> 'merges' into the Supreme soul. But I think you have

> not mentioned about the other kinds of liberation

> which a pure devotee of the Lord automatically gets,

> even though a pure devotee of Krishna is not

> hankering even after liberation..

>

> As metioned by Srila Kapiladeva to His mother

> Srimati Devahuti:

> ---

> {

> naikatmatam me sprhayanti

> kecin

> mat-pada-sevabhirata mad-ihah

> ye 'nyonyato bhagavatah

> prasajya

> sabhajayante mama paurusani

>

> SYNONYMS

>

> na--never; eka-atmatam--merging into oneness;

> me--My; sprhayanti--they desire; kecit--any;

> mat-pada-seva--the service of My lotus feet;

> abhiratah--engaged in; mat-ihah--endeavoring to

> attain Me; ye--those who; anyonyatah--mutually;

> bhagavatah--pure devotees; prasajya--assembling;

> sabhajayante--glorify; mama--My; paurusani--glorious

> activities.

>

> TRANSLATION

>

> A pure devotee, who is attached to the

> activities of devotional service and who always

> engages in the service of My lotus feet, never

> desires to become one with Me. Such a devotee, who

> is unflinchingly engaged, always glorifies My

> pastimes and activities. -

> http://vedabase.net/sb/3/25/34/en }

> ---

>

> And the different kinds of liberation is mentioned

> in this verse, as mentioned by Srila Kapiladeva to

> His mother Srimati Devahuti:

> ---

> {

> salokya-sarsti-samipya-

> sarupyaikatvam apy uta

> diyamanam na grhnanti

> vina mat-sevanam janah

>

> SYNONYMS

>

> salokya--living on the same planet;

> sarsti--having the same opulence; samipya--to be a

> personal associate; sarupya--having the same bodily

> features; ekatvam--oneness; api--also; uta--even;

> diyamanam--being offered; na--not; grhnanti--do

> accept; vina--without; mat--My; sevanam--devotional

> service; janah--pure devotees.

>

> TRANSLATION

>

> A pure devotee does not accept any kind of

> liberation--salokya, sarsti, samipya, sarupya or

> ekatva--even though they are offered by the Supreme

> Personality of Godhead. -

> http://vedabase.net/sb/3/29/13/en }

> ---

> Also, the point you mentioned regarding Gurudeva

> himself coming in search of individual soul is

> rarely found in the scriptures. Example is that of

> Srila Parikshit Maharaja, who is already a

> nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) devotee of

> Krishna.

>

> But for the general people, who are not on that

> level, there has to be a conscious effort on their

> part to approach a bona fide Guru. As mentioned by

> Shree Krishna to Arjuna in Bhagavad-Gita:

>

> {

> tad viddhi pranipatena

> pariprasnena sevaya

> upadeksyanti te jnanam

> jnaninas tattva-darsinah

> SYNONYMS

> tat--that knowledge of different sacrifices;

> viddhi--try to understand; pranipatena--by

> approaching a spiritual master; pariprasnena--by

> submissive inquiries; sevaya--by the rendering of

> service; upadeksyanti--initiate; te--unto you;

> jnanam--knowledge; jnaninah--the self-realized;

> tattva--truth; darsinah--the seers.

> TRANSLATION

> Just try to learn the truth by approaching a

> spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and

> render service unto him. The self-realized soul can

> impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the

> truth. - http://asitis.com/4/34.html }

>

> These are just the points that came to my mind

> when I read your posting. Apologies, if I have said

> something wrong.

>

> Shree Krishna Sharnam Mama!

> ~Krishnadasa.

>

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

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