Guest guest Posted November 6, 2008 Report Share Posted November 6, 2008 Some observations re- Malayalam A Tamilian friend of mine found it strange that when a person speaks to another in Malayalam he refers to him in the third person and not in the second person. To explain, if a person named Raman is standing before me, in English I would ask him, "Where are you working?". Here the word 'you' which is in the second person is used to refer to Raman. But in Malayalam the same question would generally be put in the form, "Raman evide joli cheyyunnu?". This is a peculiarity of Malayalam. On thinking about it I found that this is based on the way of speaking in Sanskrit. In Sanskrit the word for 'you' is 'tvam'. But 'tvam' is not used, particularly when speaking to strangers or to those to whom we want to show respect. Instead, the word 'Bhavan' is used. The verb has then to be in the third person. The same question will be put in the form, "Where is Bhavan working?". Thus the method of expression in Sanskrit is adopted in Malayalam with the difference that the name of the person is used instead of the word 'Bhavan'. The word 'angu' used to denote respect is an exact translation of 'Bhavan'. Another instance. In Sanskrit plays we find that persons of higher status are referred to as 'tatrabhavan'. 'Tatra' means 'there'. So the word 'avidunnu' used in Malayalam is an exact translation of the Sanskrit word 'tatrabhavan'. Similarly the word 'atrabhavan' is also used in Sanskrit. 'atra' means 'ivide' and so the word 'ividunnu' is an exact translation of the word 'atrabhavan'. In Sanskrit the sambodhana for words like 'Sarada' is 'Sarade'. In Malayalam also, while calling a girl named 'Sarada' one calls her 'Sarade' and not 'Sarada' as in Tamil. Thus the method of conversation in Malayalam is modelled on that of Sanskrit. A feature of Malayalam which is not found in any other language is that the form of the verb does not change with the number and gender of the subject. The word 'varunnu' is the same whether the subject is I or we or he or she or it or they or you (singular or plural). The same is the case with the past tense and the future tense. In all other Indian languages there are different forms according to the number and gender of the subject. These are just a few stray thoughts. S.N.Sastri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2008 Report Share Posted November 6, 2008 Sastriji, In Malayalam instead of addressing Raman, evide joli cheyyunnu ?, one can say: thangal ( or ningal., or nee depending on the status of Raman) evide joli cheyyunnu ? When calling someone, Any name (girls ) ending in " aa " like Sarada, Santha., Radha, Amma, We say amme, radhe, etc. But other names like Ambujam , it is Ambujam, Vilasini is Vilasiniee: Ammini is Amminiee, I am not a Malayalam pundit or Sanscrit scholar and hence I stand corrected. jai shree krishna ! guruvayur , " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri wrote: > > Some observations re- Malayalam > > > > A Tamilian friend of mine found it strange that when a person speaks to > another in Malayalam he refers to him in the third person and not in the > second person. To explain, if a person named Raman is standing before me, in > English I would ask him, " Where are you working? " . Here the word 'you' which > is in the second person is used to refer to Raman. But in Malayalam the same > question would generally be put in the form, " Raman evide joli cheyyunnu? " . > This is a peculiarity of Malayalam. On thinking about it I found that this > is based on the way of speaking in Sanskrit. In Sanskrit the word for 'you' > is 'tvam'. But 'tvam' is not used, particularly when speaking to strangers > or to those to whom we want to show respect. Instead, the word 'Bhavan' is > used. The verb has then to be in the third person. The same question will be > put in the form, " Where is Bhavan working? " . Thus the method of expression > in Sanskrit is adopted in Malayalam with the difference that the name of the > person is used instead of the word 'Bhavan'. The word 'angu' used to denote > respect is an exact translation of 'Bhavan'. > > Another instance. In Sanskrit plays we find that persons of higher status > are referred to as 'tatrabhavan'. 'Tatra' means 'there'. So the word > 'avidunnu' used in Malayalam is an exact translation of the Sanskrit word > 'tatrabhavan'. Similarly the word 'atrabhavan' is also used in Sanskrit. > 'atra' means 'ivide' and so the word 'ividunnu' is an exact translation of > the word 'atrabhavan'. > > In Sanskrit the sambodhana for words like 'Sarada' is 'Sarade'. In Malayalam > also, while calling a girl named 'Sarada' one calls her 'Sarade' and not > 'Sarada' as in Tamil. > > Thus the method of conversation in Malayalam is modelled on that of > Sanskrit. > > A feature of Malayalam which is not found in any other language is that the > form of the verb does not change with the number and gender of the subject. > The word 'varunnu' is the same whether the subject is I or we or he or she > or it or they or you (singular or plural). The same is the case with the > past tense and the future tense. In all other Indian languages there are > different forms according to the number and gender of the subject. > > These are just a few stray thoughts. > > S.N.Sastri > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2008 Report Share Posted November 6, 2008 Dear Sastriji and Gopalakrishnaji, It was very interesting and nostalgic to read your postings. Some of the usages we very seldom hear now. I have not heard for years usages like " paalikkuruppu " for sleep, " neeraatukuli " for bath, " thrukkaal " " thrukkai " for legs and hands. Some of these were used as aachara bhasha when addressed to royal family members or nambudiris. I remember one word which is almost obsolete- " manathiricchil " meaning marriage. Also among nambudiris, " penkota " and " veli " are still used for marriage. One thing Sastriji mentioned is so true. In Malyalam we call Amme. Our son-in-law is Maharashtrian. So after marriage he was trying to call me like our daughter and he used to call " Amma " in the beginning and our daughter corrected him saying " it is not " amma, it is " amme " . In Kerala, only beggars call " Ammaaa " . So it does not seem right " . He took some time to change it to Amme and now he calls me Amme. I still remember that my father never used to say " nee " or " vaa " to us. He always called us by name and said " Varoo " and he was very particular that we should not call our children also " vaa " . I always felt " vaa " or " nee " as an insult. It was very nice to think about all these words and situations. Regards and prayers Savitri .. On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 12:45 PM, K.V Gopalakrishna <gopalakrishna.kv wrote: Radhe Krishna!In the Sanskrit plays, husbands used to be addressed as " Aarya-putra " " Thaangal " is frequently used to denote " Bhavan " . (My father used to use that terminology). Also, when I speak to some stranger, I always ask, " Thirumeniyude sthalam evideya? " , as I feel that a bit of respect given to anyone is always good. After all, " Thirumeni " means " respectful body " , and it can be used towards anyone. Then the person immediately comes out saying that he is not a " Thirumeni " , meaning that he is not from a Namboodiri or royal family, and laughs it out. During our schooldays, we were supposed to use the address of " Thirumeni " for persons hailing from royal and Namboodiri families. I doubt such addressing is in vogue now. When we used to address our other friends as " Thaan " and still closer ones as " Nee " , even class-mates from royal families used to take it as an insult if such addressing were done to them. I personally feel that " Raman evide joli cheyyunnu " is a more respectful way of asking, compared to " Ningal " which can also be used, but sounds a bit crude. and " Thangal " or " Avidunnu " may reflect a bit of respectability, which may or may not be liked, as " Thirumeni " . I think these habits are vanishing now, in the present day context. NamaskaramsKVG. S.N. Sastri wrote: Some observations re- Malayalam A Tamilian friend of mine found it strange that when a person speaks to another in Malayalam he refers to him in the third person and not in the second person. To explain, if a person named Raman is standing before me, in English I would ask him, " Where are you working? " . Here the word 'you' which is in the second person is used to refer to Raman. But in Malayalam the same question would generally be put in the form, " Raman evide joli cheyyunnu? " . This is a peculiarity of Malayalam. On thinking about it I found that this is based on the way of speaking in Sanskrit. In Sanskrit the word for 'you' is 'tvam'. But 'tvam' is not used, particularly when speaking to strangers or to those to whom we want to show respect. Instead, the word 'Bhavan' is used. The verb has then to be in the third person. The same question will be put in the form, " Where is Bhavan working? " . Thus the method of expression in Sanskrit is adopted in Malayalam with the difference that the name of the person is used instead of the word 'Bhavan'. The word 'angu' used to denote respect is an exact translation of 'Bhavan'. Another instance. In Sanskrit plays we find that persons of higher status are referred to as 'tatrabhavan'. 'Tatra' means 'there'. So the word 'avidunnu' used in Malayalam is an exact translation of the Sanskrit word 'tatrabhavan'. Similarly the word 'atrabhavan' is also used in Sanskrit. 'atra' means 'ivide' and so the word 'ividunnu' is an exact translation of the word 'atrabhavan'. In Sanskrit the sambodhana for words like 'Sarada' is 'Sarade'. In Malayalam also, while calling a girl named 'Sarada' one calls her 'Sarade' and not 'Sarada' as in Tamil. Thus the method of conversation in Malayalam is modelled on that of Sanskrit. A feature of Malayalam which is not found in any other language is that the form of the verb does not change with the number and gender of the subject. The word 'varunnu' is the same whether the subject is I or we or he or she or it or they or you (singular or plural). The same is the case with the past tense and the future tense. In all other Indian languages there are different forms according to the number and gender of the subject. These are just a few stray thoughts. S.N.Sastri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2008 Report Share Posted November 7, 2008 Dear Savitriji and Sastri Mama and other devotee readers from Kerala, Radhe Krishna! It really makes interesting reading when we start reading the peculiarities of the language, especially used in the old time books and speak to old timers. The serial on "Guruvayoorappan" being shown on Surya TV at 9.30 P.M. monday to friday, is quite interesting, especially from this point of view. I have a copy of the book "Aithihya-mala" by Kottarathil Sankunni who was a contemporary of my father and who had sent a letter of appreciation of the Malayalam version of the Bhaktaranjini commentary. This book is very interesting from this point of view of usages, and which I very much enjoy reading. One word which used to make me laugh is the usage of the word "medhyam" to denote what is pure, sacred and holy, acceptable for a sacrifice in the olden days, mostly used by Rishis, and can be found in Ramayanam and Bhagavatam in many places . The opposite of the word, with a prefix "A" is used wrongly in the present day context to mean something else! I think I will better stop there. Regards KVG. Savitri Puram wrote: Dear Sastriji and Gopalakrishnaji, It was very interesting and nostalgic to read your postings. Some of the usages we very seldom hear now. I have not heard for years usages like "paalikkuruppu" for sleep, "neeraatukuli" for bath, "thrukkaalthrukkai"for legs and hands. Some of these were used as aachara bhasha when addressed to royal family members or nambudiris. I remember one word which is almost obsolete- "manathiricchil" meaning marriage. Also among nambudiris, "penkota" and "veli" are still used for marriage. One thing Sastriji mentioned is so true. In Malyalam we call Amme. Our son-in-law is Maharashtrian. So after marriage he was trying to call me like our daughter and he used to call "Amma" in the beginning and our daughter corrected him saying"it is not "amma, it is "amme" . In Kerala, only beggars call "Ammaaa". So it does not seem right". He took some time to change it to Amme and now he calls me Amme. I still remember that my father never used to say "nee" or "vaa" to us. He always called us by name and said "Varoo" and he was very particular that we should not call our children also "vaa" . I always felt "vaa" or "nee" as an insult. It was very nice to think about all these words and situations. Regards and prayers Savitri .. On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 12:45 PM, K.V Gopalakrishna <gopalakrishna.kv > wrote: Radhe Krishna! In the Sanskrit plays, husbands used to be addressed as "Aarya-putra" "Thaangal" is frequently used to denote "Bhavan". (My father used to use that terminology). Also, when I speak to some stranger, I always ask, "Thirumeniyude sthalam evideya?", as I feel that a bit of respect given to anyone is always good. After all, "Thirumeni" means "respectful body", and it can be used towards anyone. Then the person immediately comes out saying that he is not a "Thirumeni", meaning that he is not from a Namboodiri or royal family, and laughs it out. During our schooldays, we were supposed to use the address of "Thirumeni" for persons hailing from royal and Namboodiri families. I doubt such addressing is in vogue now. When we used to address our other friends as "Thaan" and still closer ones as "Nee", even class-mates from royal families used to take it as an insult if such addressing were done to them. I personally feel that "Raman evide joli cheyyunnu" is a more respectful way of asking, compared to "Ningal" which can also be used, but sounds a bit crude. and "Thangal" or "Avidunnu" may reflect a bit of respectability, which may or may not be liked, as "Thirumeni". I think these habits are vanishing now, in the present day context. Namaskarams KVG. S.N. Sastri wrote: Some observations re- Malayalam A Tamilian friend of mine found it strange that when a person speaks to another in Malayalam he refers to him in the third person and not in the second person. To explain, if a person named Raman is standing before me, in English I would ask him, "Where are you working?". Here the word 'you' which is in the second person is used to refer to Raman. But in Malayalam the same question would generally be put in the form, "Raman evide joli cheyyunnu?". This is a peculiarity of Malayalam. On thinking about it I found that this is based on the way of speaking in Sanskrit. In Sanskrit the word for 'you' is 'tvam'. But 'tvam' is not used, particularly when speaking to strangers or to those to whom we want to show respect. Instead, the word 'Bhavan' is used. The verb has then to be in the third person. The same question will be put in the form, "Where is Bhavan working?". Thus the method of expression in Sanskrit is adopted in Malayalam with the difference that the name of the person is used instead of the word 'Bhavan'. The word 'angu' used to denote respect is an exact translation of 'Bhavan'. Another instance. In Sanskrit plays we find that persons of higher status are referred to as 'tatrabhavan'. 'Tatra' means 'there'. So the word 'avidunnu' used in Malayalam is an exact translation of the Sanskrit word 'tatrabhavan'. Similarly the word 'atrabhavan' is also used in Sanskrit. 'atra' means 'ivide' and so the word 'ividunnu' is an exact translation of the word 'atrabhavan'. In Sanskrit the sambodhana for words like 'Sarada' is 'Sarade'. In Malayalam also, while calling a girl named 'Sarada' one calls her 'Sarade' and not 'Sarada' as in Tamil. Thus the method of conversation in Malayalam is modelled on that of Sanskrit. A feature of Malayalam which is not found in any other language is that the form of the verb does not change with the number and gender of the subject. The word 'varunnu' is the same whether the subject is I or we or he or she or it or they or you (singular or plural). The same is the case with the past tense and the future tense. In all other Indian languages there are different forms according to the number and gender of the subject. These are just a few stray thoughts. S.N.Sastri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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