Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 namo narayana 1. Right from the most ancient scripture "Rg veda" to the "latest" scripture Bhagavad Gita the absolute supremacy of Lord Vishnu has been proclaimed many times over. Furthermore, great saints like Sri Ramanujacharya, Madhwacharya etc have also repeatedly stated the same theme. 2. Episodes like the famous Bhanasura war in the bhagvatham, in which Lord Krishna unequivocally defeats Lord Siva and his sons Ganapathy and Karthikeyan along with the entire saiva army has been clearly shown His absolute supremacy. Furthermore all the other anya devathas be it Siva, Brahma , Indra, Saraswathi etc have always resorted to Lord Vishnu's assistance with in trouble. 3. Lord Vishnu being Bhagawan Himself is completely transcendental and is not touched by any of the gunas and hence cannot be influenced by any karmas whereas the devathas themselves are tied by the three gunas and are bound by karmic cycle. So the point is can any devatha who himself is under the laws of karma liberate any one from the influence of Maya?? Lord Vishnu alone is called Maya-pati and only He can control Maya whereas all the other demigods/demons are themselves under the illusion of Maya. 4. Many will worship other demigods for material benefits thinking that approaching Lord Vishnu will be harder. However Lord Vishnu is alone called as "iha-para dayaka" govinda -the one who gives both material boons along with liberation (eg. Dhruva, Prahlad etc). The great difference being that His material boons do not trap the devotee into the cycle of karma but instead helps to liberate him- So instead of approaching other devathas for material benedictions it will be wise to approach Lord Vishnu Himself. 5. For those who worship Lord Vishnu along with other devathas, one must remember that as the sole Paramaatman, He Himself is the owner of all the jeevatmans, including the devathas. Hence as a chaste wife who will never approach any other man for assistance, the devotees too must approach their only support for all their problems not run after others as and when convenient thus compromising the "chastity" of their faith and devotion to Lord Vishnu. 6. Stating the truth to our loved ones so that they take the path of liberation and to rescue them from karmic cycle can never be "religious fanaticism". By worshipping other devathas, we are depriving ourselves the chance of truly ripening our pure devotion to Lord Vishnu which attracts His mercy and opening the doors of Vaikuntham for His eternal service. Such devotees not only redeem themselves but also redeem their ancestors on both sides. I am sure that great devotees such as Dhruva, Prahlada, Hanuman, Shabari, Vibheeshana etc who worshipped only Lord Vishnu and absolutely refused to worship any other devathas, including their Kula-devathas were never considered as religious fanatics!! Sincerely, Kamlesh--- On Thu, 7/23/09, K.V Gopalakrishna <gopalakrishna.kv wrote: K.V Gopalakrishna <gopalakrishna.kvRe: [Guruvayur] re:discussionguruvayur Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 10:42 AM Dear Krishnamoorthiji,Radhe Krishna!Krishna has said, "Ananyah Chinthayantho maam," etc., etc. No doubt. But to say that "all other deities are useless" is wrong, as all deities are manifestations of the Supreme. Only thing is that the other gods, according to Bhagavatam, Bhagavadgita, Narayaneeyam, etc., give all purusharthas, except "Mukti", which only Lord Vishnu can give. This is the belief of the addict to Vishnu-bhakti, like me. This does not mean that other Gods are inferior. To think that way is religious fanaticism.Each Purana eulogises the particular deity around whom it is centred, just like Bhagavatam giving importance to Vishnu. Siva Puranam gives more importance to Lord Siva. Devi Puranam will say that Goddess Durga-lakshmi- saraswati is superior to all.Although all the 18 Puranas aare authored by the same Veda Vyasa, He, an incarnation of the Supreme Himself, has made this differentiation, not to wean away Bhaktas from other Gods, but just to encourage them to enhance their belief in God, and increase their Bhakti in their Ishta-deivatam. Misinterpretation is easy, but proper understanding is difficult.This is what Bhattatiri also says in dasakam 90 of Narayaneeyam.May your Bhakti in your Ishta-deivatam get enhanced, day by day.LoveK.V. Gopalakrishna. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 12:21 AM, Krishnamoorthi Venkatraman <krishnamoorthi. venkatraman@ gmail.com> wrote: new topic- when our supreme has made clear that- surrender to me- me alone-why one should go to other smaller deities they are useless,infact why not we confine to KRISHNA alone krishna On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 6:45 AM, sashikala srinivasan <sashikalasrinivasan @gmail.com> wrote: Dear AnuradhaYour reply or the opinion is apt especially in the modern days when male chauvanism and womens liberation are the most talked about.Hare krishna Hare Hrishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 4:22 PM, anuradha iyer <anuiyer1973@ .co. in> wrote: dear all the topic was started and now it is taking for a discussion please not to be taken for any discussion it was only for discourse... thx sarojaji and dear seema Gandhari proved herself to be a woman of great wisdom,justice, righteous, able to heed the advise of Krishna despite her bitterness,highly dedicated to her husband though he was not heeding her pleadings,wise counsel and all these qualities make her a great woman of virtues. From this we can deduce it is not simple serving husband the duty of a woman ends but she should also be judicious in her words and deeds,be impartial in her decisions,shouild hv the temerity to advise that are noble,free from jealousy,ego, anger only then a woman gets highly respected.I am sure the same applies to men also in equal measure as virtuosity is not the domain of women only but men too.Than only life becomes worthy and wholesome. Hare Krishna, See the Web's breaking stories, chosen by people like you. Check out Buzz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Dear all,Radhe Krishna!What our Kamaleshji (Mr. Veryytteriun ?) has written is all correct facts, and have to be admitted, no doubt.Worshipping the Lord, by whatever we call Him/Her, is each person's personal matter. We can go on endlessly debating on the topic of " Who is greater? Brahma, Vishnu, Siva, Bhagavathy, Ganesa, Subramania etc. " As many of us have pointed out, the greatness of God's different manifestations known by the different names and forms said above, is beyond our human comprehension. Gods themselves have said that the oneness of all different forms has already been established by different episodes. So let the question of worshiping God or Ishtadeivatam be left to the individual concerned. I for one, worship all Gods, but still Krishna is my Ishta-deivatam, not because He is bigger than all other Gods, but it just happened to be so. As I said earlier, each Puranam, although written by the same author eulogises that particular God on which it is centered, with the hope of enhancing Bhakti towards the particular God. All these debates of supermacy of Gods can sustain only up to a certain level, and when one crosses that level, he/she will realise the oneness of all Gods, and worship only Parabrahman, the formless God. That would be the ideal situation, but till one gets that realisation which can happen only after the person acquires that much purity of mind and maturity of thinking,, he/she has to go through these exercises. So let us leave it to the individual. Love,KVG.On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Veryytterium <veryytterium wrote: namo narayana 1. The Kula-devathas are devathas for a particular individual only in his present life, whereas Lord Krishna is the " Atma-devatha " who is not only our lord in this life but in all the past and all the future lives. So how ideal is to compromise our eternal Atma-devatha for worship of temporary deities? 2. Sri Adi Shankaracharya was a very powerful advaitin yogi who with his great austerities and jnana yoga attained nirguna, niraakar para-brahman realisation. But even he has preached the worship of Lord Krishna (BHaja-govindam etc). However how many of us have even 0.1% of the abilities which Sri Shankaracharya had? So what does the common man do, with his mundane yet enormous material responsibilites, he cannot become an ascetic to attain one point samadhi in the formless parabrahman? Bhagavad dharma comes to the rescue, it assures liberation by ripening our pure devotion to Lord Sri Krishna. In this marga, one does not have to become an ascetic or do vigorous austerities. Simple pure devotion, banishment of ego and pride and whole hearted sincere surrender to Lord Krishna are the requirements. So how do you sincerely surrender to Him when you also worship other gods as and when required and according to convenience and requirements? 3. Lord Krishna himself showed all the devathas in Him during the virat-dharshan to Arjuna in the battlefield. Hence simply by worshipping Him, we automatically worship all the other gods, so how does the exclusive worship of Lord Krishna, belittle or ignore the other devathas?? And where is the need to worship Lord Sri Krishna indirectly through the worship of the devathas, especially when He has provided us His most charming and pleasing forms as Lord Vishnu, Lord Narayana etc? Why not directly worship Him instead of indirectly wortshhipping Him circuitously? 4. Unfortunately the concepts of parliamentary democracy where all are equal cannot be applied to divinity. Lord Krishna is the absolute Lord, is a fact however uncomfortable it might be to our conditioned intellect and our dependence to our traditions. It will be the degree of our sincere faith and devotion which will matter the most at the time of our death and not our dependance on blind traditions and political correctness which themselves change as times goes by. 5. How can the exclusive worship of Lord Krishna be ever sectarian, especially He who has not only liberated humans, but is also the Lord of animals (Gajendra, vanaras, jatayu etc), demons (prahlad, vibheeshana),and even trees (amara-prabhu?) 6. Exclusive worship of Lord Krishna as parabrahman is not " new found wisdom " but has been quoted in the oldest scripture the " Rig veda " - tad vishNO: paramam padam sadA pasyanti sooraya. The problem comes with mistaken self-identity such as I am a Hindu, belong to such and such a caste/creed, sex, age, nationality etc not realising that the inner soul is an eternal servant of Lord Krishna and it should regain its original nature in perpetual unconditional devotional service to Him. It is the duty of all bhakthas to use their viveka and plead for His mercy in developing pure single-pointed devotion to Him even if it means challenging tradition in a humble and a sincere respectful manner. A bhaktha is ever respectful to everyone, even to an ant so the question of disrespecting any devathas or family members does not even arise. Bhakthi to Lord Krishna can never/should never be forced on anyone, but since human life is very rare and attaining our original state as the eternal servant of Lord Krishna is its only goal, it will be a great loss and shame if we do not proceed on this path fearing traditions and other societal conditioning which are so temporary in nature. This we not only owe to ourselves but to our ancestors and parents also. Sincerely, Kamlesh--- On Fri, 7/24/09, menon_sunil <menon_sunil wrote: menon_sunil <menon_sunil[Guruvayur] Re: discussion-Supremacy of Lord Vishnu guruvayur Date: Friday, July 24, 2009, 1:50 AM Forwarded message from Prasadji to Guruvayur-owner. Prasadji, please send all mails to the group to guruvayur@grou ps.com instead of guruvayur-owner. Om Namo Narayanaya:Sunil.guruvayur@grou ps.com, " menon_sunil " <menon_sunil@ ...> wrote: >> Hello Devotees,> > I joined this group today and this happened to be the first message I read.> > My first impulse is to write a reply without knowing much about the group or the right and wrong here. > > I wondered as a teenager why the whole world is not realizing the beauty of Hinduism and its symbolism. Then I came across many versions and examples similar to what Shree Kamlesh prabhu has perceived. It is indeed a shame for our spectacular Bharatavarhsam to fight in the name of our symbolic God names - that we use to conceptualize the one and only Brahman. > > Why such sectarianism and strong words when we all know you can call your istha daivam Krishna or Shiva or Bhadrakali?> > I have a question for Shree Kamlesh prabhu -> > Our Kula Devatha temple is Bhagavathy, do you suggest us to close down that temple because we also are ardent devotees of Krishna? If not what else we do with all our Shiva, Kali temples? > > Mammiyoor Shiva temple is where we do darshan as per sashtras before we enter Guruvayoor, shall we ask Kerala authorities to close down Mamiyoor temple?> > How about all the murthies inside Guruvayoor temple? Bhagavathy, Ayyappan, Saraswathy.. ? > > As per you mail, you were brought up in similar manner as me, and I assume there are still people in your family who worship the wrong Gods -- Do you think we need to suggest our respected Father, Mother and Uncles that we learned something new and they are all doing wrong things for centuries? So that they listen to our new found wisdom compared to the age old wisdom of Hinduism? > > And even our great Kerala saint, Shree Shakarayacharya was not able to grasp and suggest different method in Kerala and Badari and Kedar?> > I am Hindu by birth and practice; and Krishna is my favorite God. But that does not mean I consider all other Hindu Murthies inferior or superior because, there is no 'other' - duality. I see Krishna everywhere, my mother sees Shiva everywhere but we both know we are trying to fathom the supreme godhead in our own huamn limitations that is beyond our human (pride) of visulization or reality. > > I take this as just another Krishna leela to make me think more about the beauty of symbolism and that of Hinduism. And I still can't believe we claim our God is superior than our Mother's God (istha devatha)! After all that mother taught us Krishna kadha and Ramayama and told us the non-duality of Brahman. > > Krishna Guruvayoorappa, ellam aviduthe leelakal.> > Hare Rama Hare Krishna.> > - regards> Prasad.> > > > guruvayur@grou ps.com, Veryytterium <veryytterium@ > wrote: > >> > namo narayana> > > > 1. Right from the most ancient scripture " Rg veda " to the " latest " scripture Bhagavad Gita the absolute supremacy of Lord Vishnu has been proclaimed many times over. Furthermore, great saints like Sri Ramanujacharya, Madhwacharya etc have also repeatedly stated the same theme.> > > > 2. Episodes like the famous Bhanasura war in the bhagvatham, in which Lord Krishna unequivocally defeats Lord Siva and his sons Ganapathy and Karthikeyan along with the entire saiva army has been clearly shown His absolute supremacy. Furthermore all the other anya devathas be it Siva, Brahma , Indra, Saraswathi etc have always resorted to Lord Vishnu's assistance with in trouble. > > > > 3. Lord Vishnu being Bhagawan Himself is completely transcendental and is not touched by any of the gunas and hence cannot be influenced by any karmas whereas the devathas themselves are tied by the three gunas and are bound by karmic cycle. > > So the point is can any devatha who himself is under the laws of karma liberate any one from the influence of Maya?? > > Lord Vishnu alone is called Maya-pati and only He can control Maya whereas all the other demigods/demons are themselves under the illusion of Maya.> > > > 4. Many will worship other demigods for material benefits thinking that approaching Lord Vishnu will be harder. However Lord Vishnu is alone called as " iha-para dayaka " govinda -the one who gives both material boons along with liberation (eg. Dhruva, Prahlad etc). The great difference being that His material boons do not trap the devotee into the cycle of karma but instead helps to liberate him- So instead of approaching other devathas for material benedictions it will be wise to approach Lord Vishnu Himself. > > > > 5. For those who worship Lord Vishnu along with other devathas, one must remember that as the sole Paramaatman, He Himself is the owner of all the jeevatmans, including the devathas. Hence as a chaste wife who will never approach any other man for assistance, the devotees too must approach their only support for all their problems not run after others as and when convenient thus compromising the " chastity " of their faith and devotion to Lord Vishnu. > > > > 6. Stating the truth to our loved ones so that they take the path of liberation and to rescue them from karmic cycle can never be " religious fanaticism " . By worshipping other devathas, we are depriving ourselves the chance of truly ripening our pure devotion to Lord Vishnu which attracts His mercy and opening the doors of Vaikuntham for His eternal service. > > Such devotees not only redeem themselves but also redeem their ancestors on both sides.> > > > I am sure that great devotees such as Dhruva, Prahlada, Hanuman, Shabari, Vibheeshana etc who worshipped only Lord Vishnu and absolutely refused to worship any other devathas, including their Kula-devathas were never considered as religious fanatics!!> > > > Sincerely,> > Kamlesh> > --- On Thu, 7/23/09, K.V Gopalakrishna <gopalakrishna. kv@> wrote: > >> >> > K.V Gopalakrishna <gopalakrishna. kv@>> > Re: [Guruvayur] re:discussion> > guruvayur@grou ps.com > > Thursday, July 23, 2009, 10:42 AM> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Dear Krishnamoorthiji,> > Radhe Krishna!> > Krishna has said, " Ananyah Chinthayantho maam, " etc., etc. No doubt. But to say that " all other deities > > are useless " is wrong, as all deities are manifestations of the Supreme. Only thing is that the other gods, according to Bhagavatam, Bhagavadgita, Narayaneeyam, etc., give all purusharthas, except " Mukti " , which only Lord Vishnu can give. This is the belief of the addict to Vishnu-bhakti, like me. This does not mean that other Gods are inferior. To think that way is religious fanaticism. > >> > Each Purana eulogises the particular deity around whom it is centred, just like Bhagavatam giving importance to Vishnu. Siva Puranam gives more importance to Lord Siva. Devi Puranam will say that Goddess Durga-lakshmi- saraswati is superior to all. > >> > Although all the 18 Puranas aare authored by the same Veda Vyasa, He, an incarnation of the Supreme Himself, has made this differentiation, not to wean away Bhaktas from other Gods, but just to encourage them to enhance their belief in God, and increase their Bhakti in their Ishta-deivatam. Misinterpretation is easy, but proper understanding is difficult.> >> > This is what Bhattatiri also says in dasakam 90 of Narayaneeyam. > >> > May your Bhakti in your Ishta-deivatam get enhanced, day by day.> >> > Love> > K.V. Gopalakrishna.> >> >> > On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 12:21 AM, Krishnamoorthi Venkatraman <krishnamoorthi. venkatraman@ gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> > new topic-> > when our supreme has made clear that-> > surrender to me- me alone-why> > one should go to other smaller deities > > they are useless,infact> > why not we confine to KRISHNA alone> > krishna> >> >> > On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 6:45 AM, sashikala srinivasan <sashikalasrinivasa n @gmail.com> wrote:> >> >> > > >> >> > > > Dear Anuradha> > Your reply or the opinion is apt especially in the modern days when male chauvanism and womens liberation are the most talked about.> >> > Hare krishna Hare Hrishna > > Krishna Krishna Hare Hare> >> >> >> > On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 4:22 PM, anuradha iyer <anuiyer1973@ .co. in> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > dear all the topic was started and now it is taking for a discussion please not to be taken for any discussion it was only for discourse... thx sarojaji > > and> > > > dear seema> > > > Gandhari proved herself to be a woman of great wisdom,justice, righteous, able to heed the advise of Krishna despite her bitterness,highly dedicated to her husband though he was not heeding her pleadings,wise counsel and all these qualities make her a great woman of virtues. > > > > From this we can deduce it is not simple serving husband the duty of a woman ends but she should also be judicious in her words and deeds,be impartial in her decisions,shouild hv the temerity to advise that are noble,free from jealousy,ego, anger only then a woman gets highly respected.I am sure the same applies to men also in equal measure as virtuosity is not the domain of women only but men too.Than only life becomes worthy and > > wholesome.> > > > Hare Krishna,> > > > > >> >> > See the Web's breaking stories, chosen by people like you. 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Guest guest Posted July 27, 2009 Report Share Posted July 27, 2009 Guruvayoorappa, Whom do we worship? Is it not really relative? I think so. In my humble opinion it is not good to force one to worship only any particular Deity; it should be left to his/ her comfortable level and I believe only then we can pray to HIM/ HER , or to Both, from the bottom of our hearts. The other day I had the opportunity to listen to MAHA SIVA PURANA KATHA by the great Acharya Shree Tahal Kishorji Maharaj (the flyer attached). Amidst his torrential speech, he remarked that you can worship any God you like, but you should not avoid Lord Siva, because He is the Authority of SAMHARA. He made us, the audience, recite along with him, the RUDRASHTAKAM’, which literally made our hairs raise, and tears roll down from our eyes. It also reminded me of part of a music line from Tamil, when writing in English it comes like, ‘ oru nal oru pozhuthakilum Sivan Namam, uchcharikka vendum….’. It is all left to the discretion and pleasure of all Bhktas; no compulsion of whatsoever. Padaravindame Saranam, Guruvayoorappa Saranam, mpr Thank you, Have a great day, mprnair, nairradhakrishnan. http://mprnair.blogspot.com/ # 281 573 8087 / Cell- 281 948 7339. guruvayur [guruvayur ] On Behalf Of gopalakrishnan kesavanbhattathiri Monday, July 27, 2009 3:31 AM guruvayur Re: [Guruvayur] Re: discussion-Supremacy of Lord Vishnu Dear all !, PRANAMS I have been watching these mails about " who is Supreme " ...and I think the following will help us to undertsand the issue/solution correctly: Point:1: If you look at Vishnu puranam, Shiva meditates upon Vishnu, in Shiva puranam Vishnu is worshipping Shiva, In Devi puranam, Shiva and Vishnu worshipping Devi etc,.In any Purana, the cardinal deity of that book is declared highest, as we can see. There is no contradiction in this. Normally, a man gets the intiation from Guru or even a child gets the basics of God worship from his parents who may be holding to a particular line of worship. Unless the upasaka is 100% devoted to his devata, his bhakti /worshi may not be strong. To make his devotion to the fullest degree, first - he is taught - Eka Gurum pranamam, Ekam Upasayeth etc., This is done in a positive way.So each purana says that Lord is the Supreme and the devotee is not expected go into other lines and it is barred by the Gurus. really that is with a good intention only. Otherwise those Gurus know that doubts as these mails will be the result! For example, in fifth standard, it is taught that " atom is the smallest particle & it is indivsisible " . That is the first step. The boy cannot undertsand the science, if simulataneously said that it is divisible. At higher classes he when he is capable of digesting further, it is will be stated that it is divisble to into proton, electron etc and those are the smallest. The students think that that is the end. Then, still at a higher level, they are taught that even electrnons etc split ! And..the professor slowly would say that " all the so called scintific laws which have been taught all these years will not behave in those taught ways, when it goes to infinite level ! " . If this is said to the student in the fifth standard, he will just then why should we study at all ! So, please understand that it is not possible to gulp the concept of " Brahmam " in one particular day or even by reading any number of books and arguing.Step by step the mental stature is risen to that subtle platform. Until that time, if we look side ways we will get distracted. Hence we are said to confine to same clan of Bhaktas, and warned - " do not go to saivites " " do not mingle with " vishnites " etc. There are no malicious intention in it. But they know that if we look on to sides and others, as of now, we will be arguing foolishly. 2. There are kula devata, grama devata, desa devata etc,. and there is nothing difficult to appreciate all. We should not just award scores and ranking for those. That is all. Indian President is supreme for us and that does not mean that our neighbouring president is inferior & can be neglected. 3. Again, another point is that, please note: In our dear Hinduism, there are as much deities as the number we are. In other words, for each one, there is a prescribed deity. Gurus or elders go thru our horoscope and suggest the Upasya devata, may be different from our own brother's or so. Because, the chosen deity is one, which will complement to our charatcter. That deity will automatically ( and SHOULD ) form the inshta devata also. For example, who is weak and fearful will be suggested Bhadrakali so that the deity will protect him from his enemies. Those who are financially weak will be prescribed Lakshmi devi. Those have money will again be prescribe " Maha Lakshmi " for Aiswaryam. People like us who are with innumerable demand, will be suggested, Krishna who is practical and take us to the goals etc etc. But mind you, the prescription is not chosen by the upasaka by reading stories of God, but prescribed by his elders/gurus or even astrolgers examining the " wants " in the horoscope. Much can be written on these authentically, but will take lots of time. Just focus on whatever forms we have or we prefer and we can go ahead. Wherelse we can go? with pranams, GK GOPA KUMAR <gop_god > guruvayur Saturday, July 25, 2009 8:59:47 PM Re: [Guruvayur] Re: discussion-Supremacy of Lord Vishnu OM Namo Narayanaya.. . As far as my little knowledge it is not clearly said any book. If you go through " DEVI Mahathmyam " AAdi parashakthi is the supreme power. The Explantion is given in that book. You can see Most of the time Lord Vishnu , Lord Shiva & Lord brahma is doing Dhyanam. As per Devi Mahathmyam they are chanting Aadi parashakthi. And if you go through " Shiva Purana " Lord shiva is the supreme power & thats why he is doing the distruction whenever it is needed. And if you go through the Vishnu Puranam You can see Lord Vishnu is having the supreme power to control everything. So I don't have that much knowledge to discuss . If anybody knows it clearly please let me know. On the other hand all these things are not making any difference. We can Chant Lord vishnu, Lord Shiva , Lord, Brahma and Aadi parashakthi. Om Namo Narayanaya.. . Om Namashivaya. . Om Brahma devaya nama... Regards Gopu --- On Sat, 7/25/09, anair1101 <anair1101 (AT) (DOT) com> wrote: anair1101 <anair1101 > [Guruvayur] Re: discussion-Supremac y of Lord Vishnu guruvayur@grou ps.com Saturday, July 25, 2009, 9:08 AM Hari-om In the Gita, Bhagvan says : At the end of many births the man of knowledge finds refuge in me He is the rare great spirit who sees " Krishna is all that is " Robbed of knowledge by stray desires men take refuge in other deities; observing varied rites, they are limited by their own nature. I grant unwavering faith to any devoted man who wants to worship any form with faith. Disciplined by that faith he seeks the deity's favor; this secured, he gains desires that I myself grant. But finite is the reward that comes to men of little wit; men who sacrifice to gods reach the gods; those devoted to me reach me. ------------ --------- --------- - Gita- Seventh Teaching/ verse: 19 - 23 jai shree krishna ! Achuthan Nair -- In guruvayur@grou ps.com, Saroja Ramanujam <sarojram18@ ...> wrote: > > What Sri Panickar has said is true.I want to make certain points re. this which I found true from my personal experience.1. Youdo not choose your ishtadevarta When the Lord wants to grace you He comes tio you Himself in that form. > 2. Kuladeaivam may or may not be the same but the ishtadevata just happens according to the stge of your spitritual revolution.3. Obnce surrendered to the Lord you do not worship other forms as it will distarct your concentration. > 4, Vaishnavas woho do praprtthi are called paramaikanthis and do not worship any other form except Narayana. 5. But the important point is that other forms of the Lord should not be decried to respect those who worship them faith fully and they will only get confused if you tell them that they should worship Narayana. Sankara has written sthorthras on all deities and not only Krishna or Narayana, 6, As KVGji has said the ishtadevata is purely personal and we cannot choose that for someone else.I will realate my own personal experience in this to show that everything is His leela.I am born in vaishnavite family and my maternal grandfather was a staunch vaishnavaite and would not go to a Siva tempole even though he lived very near the kaspaleesvara temple in Mylapore Chennai. But my parents were not that strict and I was brought up in close association of a saivite family and used to recite sthothras and do namasankeerthana on all deities. In > fact I knew only alalith sahastranama by heart and not vishnudsahasranama. Till my middle age I used to chant that and soundarya lahari besides the sthorthras on Narayana. I had an inherent bhakthi for Narayana, and also used to read Narayneeyam Sundrakandam etc. though but was not used to get into ecstasty to think about Him as I do now. > Similarly I was running from pillar to post in search of my guru and used to follow the teachings of ramakrishna Vivejkananda , Ramana, Aurabindo, The Divine mother etc. > But in later life the Lord has decided to shower His grace on me and there was a sudden transformation and Lord Narsimha suddenly captured my heart and I started to pray for Him and worship Him.Still I was not a paramaikanthi. Still later tthe Lord sent His guidance through the acharya Ramanuja whose sribhashya , the cvommentary on Brhamsuthra I took for my thesis in Ph.D. I was doing advati Siromani and was studying only advaita till then. The choice of the subject itself was providential ansd was suggested to me through the grace of the acharya and the Lord. Once I started that there was a miraculous change in my life from being a mere bhaktha , who was religious and faithful bot not singlepointed, into a prapanna, resuting in total surrender to the Lord, Vasudevassarvam ithi. I t was His will and not my di oing and this is how it should be.If your search is sincere the Lord will Himsekf show you the way. He has not only made me His sesha but also > provided opportunity for me through the internet to spread His glory to all ans put me in a state as described in Gita , macchitthaamadhbath apraaNaah boDhyanthaH parasparam kaThayanthaScha maam nithyam thushyanthi cha ramanthi cha. We are akincanyas, with no qualifications or wisdom to guide others asto what deituy one should worship etc. He knows when ah\nd how to shp ow the right path and He only knows which is the right path for whom. He does not need our propagation of His name, We should nonly feel grateful for the bhakthi He has given us towards Him and feel humble.saroja Ramanujamsaroja Ramanujam . > Dr. SarojaRamanujam , M.A., Ph.D, sanskritsiromanirep ly to sarojram18@. .. and to get the previous posts > > --- On Fri, 7/24/09, Udayabhanu Panickar <udhayabhanupanicka r wrote: > > Udayabhanu Panickar <udhayabhanupanicka r > Re: [Guruvayur] Re: discussion-Supremac y of Lord Vishnu > guruvayur@grou ps.com > Friday, July 24, 2009, 10:03 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Family members, > > > > I was engaged in different things for a while and I did not get much time to > communicate with you all. I am still busy but this mail definitely deserves a > reply as this was something I was planning to write. We very often fight between > us about the superiority of our different Ishtadevataha. I for one believe that > this is because of our lack of knowledge of our spirituality. If we learn our > spirituality as a whole this tendency of “divide” shall go away. > > > > Please note that I don't consider our spirituality as a mere religion even. > Calling it as a religion is, in my opinion degrading it. To begin with we never > called it a religion and we never named it “Hinduism”. What we did was, we > accepted a name given to our spirituality by some one who had no idea of what > our sanathanaDHarmam was, and we out of our non-offending mentality just > accepted that name. And this was the biggest mistake we did in degrading our > spirituality into a mere religion. > > > > Our spirituality is much more than a religion and it is full by itself. There > is nothing identical to it. The talk about superiority of deferent branches of > our spirituality such as Jainism, buDhism, visNavism, Shivisam, Shakthism, > Sikhism, etc are only the folly to divide our people and a lot of us had fallen > into this folly. Please restrain from falling victims of the “divide and > conquer” policy of others. > > > > As Mr Prasad said " Why such sectarianism and strong words when we all know > you can call your isTadaivam Krishna or Shivan > or bhadrakAli? " Yes, I fully > support his opinion. If we go to our Guruvayurappan or Thiruppathi bAlaji > or to Aranmula pArthArathi, mookAmbika, chottAniKara, shabarimala aYappan, > maDhura meenAkshi or eattumAnOrappan, we are all going to the same parabrhMam > and It is all the same parabrhMam. > > > > Along with our bhakthi if we study the life of our spiritual > Masters we can see all of them were devotees of all of these representations of > that Ultimate, the parabrhMam. So please restrain from the divide on the basis > of 'isams'. Our spirituality is the Ultimate and it is because of this freedom > of choice and please, please don’t bring it down to the level of a meager religion. > > > > > In fact my speech at the symposium at KHNA convention has > reference to a lot of this. I shall be making that available to Sunil soon for > possible use in Navneetham. > > > > More on the subject later. > > Sincerely, > Udayabhanu Panickar > aum namaH Shivaaya The vow not to kill is great indeed, and greater still is non-eating of the flesh; there would be no butcher, if there is non to eat; in eating thus abides the cruder ill, as she/he is the reason for the killing. > > --- On Fri, 7/24/09, menon_sunil <menon_sunil@ > wrote: > > menon_sunil <menon_sunil@ > > [Guruvayur] Re: discussion-Supremac y of Lord Vishnu > guruvayur@grou ps.com > Friday, July 24, 2009, 1:50 AM > > > > > > > > > > Forwarded message from Prasadji to Guruvayur-owner. > > > > Prasadji, please send all mails to the group to guruvayur@grou ps.com instead of guruvayur-owner. > > > > Om Namo Narayanaya: > > Sunil. > > > > guruvayur@grou ps.com, " menon_sunil " <menon_sunil@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Hello Devotees, > > > > > > I joined this group today and this happened to be the first message I read. > > > > > > My first impulse is to write a reply without knowing much about the group or the right and wrong here. > > > > > > I wondered as a teenager why the whole world is not realizing the beauty of Hinduism and its symbolism. Then I came across many versions and examples similar to what Shree Kamlesh prabhu has perceived. It is indeed a shame for our spectacular Bharatavarhsam to fight in the name of our symbolic God names - that we use to conceptualize the one and only Brahman. > > > > > > Why such sectarianism and strong words when we all know you can call your istha daivam Krishna or Shiva or Bhadrakali? > > > > > > I have a question for Shree Kamlesh prabhu - > > > > > > Our Kula Devatha temple is Bhagavathy, do you suggest us to close down that temple because we also are ardent devotees of Krishna? If not what else we do with all our Shiva, Kali temples? > > > > > > Mammiyoor Shiva temple is where we do darshan as per sashtras before we enter Guruvayoor, shall we ask Kerala authorities to close down Mamiyoor temple? > > > > > > How about all the murthies inside Guruvayoor temple? Bhagavathy, Ayyappan, Saraswathy.. ? > > > > > > As per you mail, you were brought up in similar manner as me, and I assume there are still people in your family who worship the wrong Gods -- Do you think we need to suggest our respected Father, Mother and Uncles that we learned something new and they are all doing wrong things for centuries? So that they listen to our new found wisdom compared to the age old wisdom of Hinduism? > > > > > > And even our great Kerala saint, Shree Shakarayacharya was not able to grasp and suggest different method in Kerala and Badari and Kedar? > > > > > > I am Hindu by birth and practice; and Krishna is my favorite God. But that does not mean I consider all other Hindu Murthies inferior or superior because, there is no 'other' - duality. I see Krishna everywhere, my mother sees Shiva everywhere but we both know we are trying to fathom the supreme godhead in our own huamn limitations that is beyond our human (pride) of visulization or reality. > > > > > > I take this as just another Krishna leela to make me think more about the beauty of symbolism and that of Hinduism. And I still can't believe we claim our God is superior than our Mother's God (istha devatha)! After all that mother taught us Krishna kadha and Ramayama and told us the non-duality of Brahman. > > > > > > Krishna Guruvayoorappa, ellam aviduthe leelakal. > > > > > > Hare Rama Hare Krishna. > > > > > > - regards > > > Prasad. > > > > > > > > > > > > guruvayur@grou ps.com, Veryytterium <veryytterium@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > namo narayana > > > > > > > > 1. Right from the most ancient scripture " Rg veda " to the " latest " scripture Bhagavad Gita the absolute supremacy of Lord Vishnu has been proclaimed many times over. Furthermore, great saints like Sri Ramanujacharya, Madhwacharya etc have also repeatedly stated the same theme. > > > > > > > > 2. Episodes like the famous Bhanasura war in the bhagvatham, in which Lord Krishna unequivocally defeats Lord Siva and his sons Ganapathy and Karthikeyan along with the entire saiva army has been clearly shown His absolute supremacy. Furthermore all the other anya devathas be it Siva, Brahma , Indra, Saraswathi etc have always resorted to Lord Vishnu's assistance with in trouble. > > > > > > > > 3. Lord Vishnu being Bhagawan Himself is completely transcendental and is not touched by any of the gunas and hence cannot be influenced by any karmas whereas the devathas themselves are tied by the three gunas and are bound by karmic cycle. > > > > So the point is can any devatha who himself is under the laws of karma liberate any one from the influence of Maya?? > > > > Lord Vishnu alone is called Maya-pati and only He can control Maya whereas all the other demigods/demons are themselves under the illusion of Maya. > > > > > > > > 4. Many will worship other demigods for material benefits thinking that approaching Lord Vishnu will be harder. However Lord Vishnu is alone called as " iha-para dayaka " govinda -the one who gives both material boons along with liberation (eg. Dhruva, Prahlad etc). The great difference being that His material boons do not trap the devotee into the cycle of karma but instead helps to liberate him- So instead of approaching other devathas for material benedictions it will be wise to approach Lord Vishnu Himself. > > > > > > > > 5. For those who worship Lord Vishnu along with other devathas, one must remember that as the sole Paramaatman, He Himself is the owner of all the jeevatmans, including the devathas. Hence as a chaste wife who will never approach any other man for assistance, the devotees too must approach their only support for all their problems not run after others as and when convenient thus compromising the " chastity " of their faith and devotion to Lord Vishnu. > > > > > > > > 6. Stating the truth to our loved ones so that they take the path of liberation and to rescue them from karmic cycle can never be " religious fanaticism " . By worshipping other devathas, we are depriving ourselves the chance of truly ripening our pure devotion to Lord Vishnu which attracts His mercy and opening the doors of Vaikuntham for His eternal service. > > > > Such devotees not only redeem themselves but also redeem their ancestors on both sides. > > > > > > > > I am sure that great devotees such as Dhruva, Prahlada, Hanuman, Shabari, Vibheeshana etc who worshipped only Lord Vishnu and absolutely refused to worship any other devathas, including their Kula-devathas were never considered as religious fanatics!! > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Kamlesh > > > > --- On Thu, 7/23/09, K.V Gopalakrishna <gopalakrishna. kv@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > K.V Gopalakrishna <gopalakrishna. kv@> > > > > Re: [Guruvayur] re:discussion > > > > guruvayur@grou ps.com > > > > Thursday, July 23, 2009, 10:42 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Krishnamoorthiji, > > > > Radhe Krishna! > > > > Krishna has said, " Ananyah Chinthayantho maam, " etc., etc. No doubt. But to say that " all other deities > > > > are useless " is wrong, as all deities are manifestations of the Supreme. Only thing is that the other gods, according to Bhagavatam, Bhagavadgita, Narayaneeyam, etc., give all purusharthas, except " Mukti " , which only Lord Vishnu can give. This is the belief of the addict to Vishnu-bhakti, like me. This does not mean that other Gods are inferior. To think that way is religious fanaticism. > > > > > > > > Each Purana eulogises the particular deity around whom it is centred, just like Bhagavatam giving importance to Vishnu. Siva Puranam gives more importance to Lord Siva. Devi Puranam will say that Goddess Durga-lakshmi- saraswati is superior to all. > > > > > > > > Although all the 18 Puranas aare authored by the same Veda Vyasa, He, an incarnation of the Supreme Himself, has made this differentiation, not to wean away Bhaktas from other Gods, but just to encourage them to enhance their belief in God, and increase their Bhakti in their Ishta-deivatam. Misinterpretation is easy, but proper understanding is difficult. > > > > > > > > This is what Bhattatiri also says in dasakam 90 of Narayaneeyam. > > > > > > > > May your Bhakti in your Ishta-deivatam get enhanced, day by day. > > > > > > > > Love > > > > K.V. Gopalakrishna. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 12:21 AM, Krishnamoorthi Venkatraman <krishnamoorthi. venkatraman@ gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > new topic- > > > > when our supreme has made clear that- > > > > surrender to me- me alone-why > > > > one should go to other smaller deities > > > > they are useless,infact > > > > why not we confine to KRISHNA alone > > > > krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 6:45 AM, sashikala srinivasan <sashikalasrinivasa n @gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Anuradha > > > > Your reply or the opinion is apt especially in the modern days when male chauvanism and womens liberation are the most talked about.. > > > > > > > > Hare krishna Hare Hrishna > > > > Krishna Krishna Hare Hare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 4:22 PM, anuradha iyer <anuiyer1973@ .co. in> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dear all the topic was started and now it is taking for a discussion please not to be taken for any discussion it was only for discourse... thx sarojaji > > > > and > > > > > > > > dear seema > > > > > > > > Gandhari proved herself to be a woman of great wisdom,justice, righteous, able to heed the advise of Krishna despite her bitterness,highly dedicated to her husband though he was not heeding her pleadings,wise counsel and all these qualities make her a great woman of virtues. > > > > > > > > From this we can deduce it is not simple serving husband the duty of a woman ends but she should also be judicious in her words and deeds,be impartial in her decisions,shouild hv the temerity to advise that are noble,free from jealousy,ego, anger only then a woman gets highly respected.I am sure the same applies to men also in equal measure as virtuosity is not the domain of women only but men too.Than only life becomes worthy and > > > > wholesome. > > > > > > > > Hare Krishna, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See the Web's breaking stories, chosen by people like you. 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