Question: Gita 9-30 - Even the worst of sinners can be considered a saint

[Guest guest]

Shree Hari

 

Gita 9:30 & 31 says - " Even the man of the most sinful conduct

worships Me with exclusive devotion, he is considered a saint; for

he has rightly resolved. No, soon he becomes virtuous and obtains

lasting peace.... My devotee never falls. "

 

How is one to interpret this shloka. In discourses given by various

spiritual leaders, I have heard that realizing God is very

difficult. It takes many births of purifying one's Self through

various disciplines and practices and only after being void of all

impurities, one becomes deserving of God Realization or Self

Realization. Yet, from this shloka it seems very simple and

straight forward. All that is required is exlusive devotion even

though one may have been a worst sinner.

 

Please help me understand whether it is essential to remove all

impurities as heard from various spiritual leaders to realize God?

Please help explain what Lord Krishna meant in these shlokas.

 

A Devotee

[Guest guest]

OM

 

Realising God is not that difficult. It is only difficult for those who do

not believe God wholeheartedly. For example, you take, " air " . You cant see

the air. That does not mean, air does not exist. You know that, without

air you cannot live. Likewise you have to believe that, without God you

cannot exist.

 

Interpretation of shloka is little difficult for me. May be, you stop doing

any more sin and worship God, then you may become saint. According to me

sin and worship cannot go together. Why I am saying this is, because of

Ravana. He was the greatest devotee of Lord Shiva. Day in and day out he

was worshiping Lord Shiva but at the same time he continued with his sin.

Therefore he has seen a very bad end. Therefore you stop sin and do worship

of God then only you will become Saint, according to me.

 

Great Believer in God

 

-

mdoshi2 <mdoshi2

 

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 5:28 AM

Question: Gita 9-30 - Even the worst of sinners can be

considered a saint

 

 

> Shree Hari

>

> Gita 9:30 & 31 says - " Even the man of the most sinful conduct

> worships Me with exclusive devotion, he is considered a saint; for

> he has rightly resolved. No, soon he becomes virtuous and obtains

> lasting peace.... My devotee never falls. "

>

> How is one to interpret this shloka. In discourses given by various

> spiritual leaders, I have heard that realizing God is very

> difficult. It takes many births of purifying one's Self through

> various disciplines and practices and only after being void of all

> impurities, one becomes deserving of God Realization or Self

> Realization. Yet, from this shloka it seems very simple and

> straight forward. All that is required is exlusive devotion even

> though one may have been a worst sinner.

>

> Please help me understand whether it is essential to remove all

> impurities as heard from various spiritual leaders to realize God?

> Please help explain what Lord Krishna meant in these shlokas.

>

> A Devotee

>

>

>

 

[Guest guest]

Dear sadhak, Yes, One has to remove impurities from his conduct. by following conduct rules as laid by sahstras. And once one surrenders to god even he is a worst sinner. He should never take to impure conduct. Thus god says he will forgive his sins and lighten his life. thanking you. a sadhakmdoshi2 <mdoshi2 wrote: Shree Hari Gita 9:30 & 31 says - "Even the man of the most sinful conduct worships Me with exclusive devotion, he is considered a saint; for he has rightly resolved. No, soon he becomes virtuous and obtains lasting peace.... My devotee never falls." How is one to interpret this shloka. In discourses given by various spiritual leaders, I

have heard that realizing God is very difficult. It takes many births of purifying one's Self through various disciplines and practices and only after being void of all impurities, one becomes deserving of God Realization or Self Realization. Yet, from this shloka it seems very simple and straight forward. All that is required is exlusive devotion even though one may have been a worst sinner. Please help me understand whether it is essential to remove all impurities as heard from various spiritual leaders to realize God? Please help explain what Lord Krishna meant in these shlokas. A Devotee

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[Guest guest]

Shree Paramaatmane Nam: Priy Satsangee Bandhu, Ram Ram ! You have well asked for the explanation of shlokas IX-30 & 31, forgetting yourself. You are reminded that even at the time of asking for the explanation you yourself knew the answer, provided you ignore without and listen to within. Do not beat about the bush, hit the demon of doubt by being honestly with yourself. Be Happy.

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[Guest guest]

Shree Hari This is what I have gatthered from all your responses to my inquiry regarding Gita 9:30: 1) Stop doing any more sin and worship God, then you may become a saint. 2) Maan se tum Ravan nikalo (Remove Ravana from your mind) 3) One has to remove impurities from his conduct. by following conduct rules as laid by shastras. 4) Do not beat about the bush, hit the demon of doubt by being honest with yourself. The questions that I have for you all are - 1) Are you all saying that it is entirely up to a devotee of God to be able to remove all the impurities in the body(B), mind(M), intellect (I), ego

(E)? 2) Do you believe that God's love for a devotee who has surrendered himself to God (Sharanagat Bhakt) is conditional upon the devotee removing all impurities in his B,M, I, E? 3) Do you believe that this jeev has complete control over it's mind, actions, conduct and all that is born of prakriti (nature)? 4) Why do you believe it became necessary for Lord Krishna to say Shloka 18:66 - "Surrender all duties to Me, seek refuge in Me alone, I shall liberate you from all sins, grieve not." Please help to further clarify... a devotee Ram Ram H K Sudhakara <hks wrote: OMRealising God is not that difficult. It is only difficult for those who donot believe God wholeheartedly. For example, you take, "air". You cant seethe air. That does not mean, air does not exist. You know that, withoutair you cannot live. Likewise you have to believe that, without God youcannot exist.Interpretation of shloka is little difficult for me. May be, you stop doingany more sin and worship God, then you may become saint. According to mesin and worship cannot go together. Why I am saying this is, because ofRavana. He was the greatest devotee of Lord Shiva. Day in and day out hewas worshiping Lord Shiva

but at the same time he continued with his sin.Therefore he has seen a very bad end. Therefore you stop sin and do worshipof God then only you will become Saint, according to me.Great Believer in God-mdoshi2 <mdoshi2Wednesday, November 23, 2005 5:28 AM Question: Gita 9-30 - Even the worst of sinners can beconsidered a saint> Shree Hari>> Gita 9:30 & 31 says - "Even the man of the most sinful conduct> worships Me with exclusive devotion, he is considered a saint; for> he has rightly resolved. No, soon he becomes virtuous and obtains> lasting peace.... My devotee never falls.">> How is one to interpret this shloka. In discourses given by various> spiritual leaders, I have heard that realizing God is very> difficult. It

takes many births of purifying one's Self through> various disciplines and practices and only after being void of all> impurities, one becomes deserving of God Realization or Self> Realization. Yet, from this shloka it seems very simple and> straight forward. All that is required is exlusive devotion even> though one may have been a worst sinner.>> Please help me understand whether it is essential to remove all> impurities as heard from various spiritual leaders to realize God?> Please help explain what Lord Krishna meant in these shlokas.>> A Devotee>>>>>>>>>>

[Guest guest]

:Shree Hari:

 

Ram Ram!

 

The following (in blue) are not in any way answers to the wonderful questions but are the comments to promote further enquiry and discussion!

 

 

1) Are you all saying that it is entirely up to a devotee of God to be able to remove all the impurities in the body(B), mind(M), intellect (I), ego (E)?

 

Believe not but till we are not sharanagatas we should certainly try!

If the devotee is a true Sharanagata, there is nothing more required to be done by the devotee! He has already done the most important task of turning himself into a sharanagata, even that is because of God's grace. It is difficult to turn towards God untill the invitatioin is extended by God.

 

A sharanagata loves God more than himself and is completely dependent on God, he does not have any other Asharaya! He no longer questions what circumstances, good or bad situations he is placed in, he accepts all things and happenings as His prasad only!

 

Sometimes we may just think that we are sharnagata or we may understand sharanagati because we are fascinated by reading or hearing about it, we are not sharangata until we experience the Sharangati 24 hours of the day! For a sharanagata, individual will is gone, it is only God's will, to him nothing else exists except God.

 

Example: The mother takes care of the child regardless of how or what he is (good or bad, pure or impure, clean or dirty, with good habits or bad habits), because her love towards the child is totally unconditional. God is the Mother of all mothers and in addition to being father, relative, well wisher and a guardian too.

 

 

2) Do you believe that God's love for a devotee who has surrendered himself to God (Sharanagat Bhakt) is conditional upon the devotee removing all impurities in his B,M, I, E?

 

God's love is totally unconditional, if there is reason for God to remove the impurities it is up to Him only. God too anxiously searching for a true devotee who is completely dependent only on Him so that he can shower His love unconditionally. If God does not take care of His devotee then God has to take the blame for the fall of the devotee!

 

 

3) Do you believe that this jeev has complete control over it's mind, actions, conduct and all that is born of prakriti (nature)?

 

No jeeva does not have control over these because they are not his, they are only instruments provided to do seva If the devotee could completely control these, then he would become God himself!

 

 

4) Why do you believe it became necessary for Lord Krishna to say Shloka 18:66 - "Surrender all duties to Me, seek refuge in Me alone, I shall liberate you from all sins, grieve not."

 

Out of His love and compassion, wanted to give the devotee (Arjuna' in this context) an easy way to relieve the devotee from all the difficult choices, uncertaintie of outcome of actions, to relieve him of the worries, anxieties, fears of committing sin. So the devotee is at peace, He cares because He is caring about his part and parcel (Jeeva is an ansha of His, Gita 15-7).

 

Prime reason - God wants His children to be happy , so provides anything and everything with his unlimited power and resources, even with our limited resources don't we try to make our children happy by providing them what they need?

 

PS: About Ravana -

Yes, Ravana was a devotee of Siva but Ravana was not a sharanagat, he did not submit his will to God, he was doing the things of his will, to satisfy himself, to enjoy, to do atrocities to the devas and the sages ....

 

Regards from a devotee, Ram Ram!

 

On Behalf Of Madhvi DoshiSunday, November 27, 2005 5:23 PM Subject: Re: Question: Gita 9-30 - Even the worst of sinners can be considered a saint

Shree Hari

 

This is what I have gatthered from all your responses to my inquiry regarding Gita 9:30:

1) Stop doing any more sin and worship God, then you may become a saint.

2) Maan se tum Ravan nikalo (Remove Ravana from your mind)

3) One has to remove impurities from his conduct. by following conduct rules as laid by shastras.

4) Do not beat about the bush, hit the demon of doubt by being honest with yourself.

 

The questions that I have for you all are -

1) Are you all saying that it is entirely up to a devotee of God to be able to remove all the impurities in the body(B), mind(M), intellect (I), ego (E)?

 

2) Do you believe that God's love for a devotee who has surrendered himself to God (Sharanagat Bhakt) is conditional upon the devotee removing all impurities in his B,M, I, E?

 

3) Do you believe that this jeev has complete control over it's mind, actions, conduct and all that is born of prakriti (nature)?

 

4) Why do you believe it became necessary for Lord Krishna to say Shloka 18:66 - "Surrender all duties to Me, seek refuge in Me alone, I shall liberate you from all sins, grieve not."

 

Please help to further clarify...

 

a devotee

 

Ram Ram

H K Sudhakara <hks wrote:

OMRealising God is not that difficult. It is only difficult for those who donot believe God wholeheartedly. For example, you take, "air". You cant seethe air. That does not mean, air does not exist. You know that, withoutair you cannot live. Likewise you have to believe that, without God youcannot exist.Interpretation of shloka is little difficult for me. May be, you stop doingany more sin and worship God, then you may become saint. According to mesin and worship cannot go together. Why I am saying this is, because ofRavana. He was the greatest devotee of Lord Shiva. Day in and day out hewas worshiping L! ord Shiva but at the same time he continued with his sin.Therefore he has seen a very bad end. Therefore you stop sin and do worshipof God then only you will become Saint, according to me.Great Believer in God-mdoshi2 <mdoshi2Wednesday, November 23, 2005 5:28 AM Question: Gita 9-30 - Even the worst of sinners can beconsidered a saint> Shree Hari>> Gita 9:30 & 31 says - "Even the man of the most sinful conduct> worships Me with exclusive devotion, he is considered a saint; for> he has rightly resolved. No, soon he becomes virtuous and obtains> lasting peace.... My devotee never falls.">> How is one to interpret this shloka. In discourses given by various> spiritual leaders, I have heard that realizing God is very> difficult. & nbs! p; It takes many births of purifying one's Self through> various disciplines and practices and only after being void of all> impurities, one becomes deserving of God Realization or Self> Realization. Yet, from this shloka it seems very simple and> straight forward. All that is required is exlusive devotion even> though one may have been a worst sinner.>> Please help me understand whether it is essential to remove all> impurities as heard from various spiritual leaders to realize God?> Please help explain what Lord Krishna meant in these shlokas.>> A Devotee>>>>>>>>>>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sadhaka

Thank you for the opportunity to think, and thus better understand.

hmmm..... my understanding is in blue. Ram Ram. Vinay

 

1) Are you all saying that it is entirely up to a devotee of God to be able to remove all the impurities in the body (B), mind(M), intellect (I), ego (E)?

 

V: Excepting rare individuals, probably impossible for a devotee to do so on his / her own. Fortunately, it's not necessary. I presume it happens automatically upon one being sharnagat, in the sense, that the impurities become irrelevant.

 

 

2) Do you believe that God's love for a devotee who has surrendered himself to God (Sharanagat Bhakt) is conditional upon the devotee removing all impurities in his B,M, I, E?

 

V: God is neither petty nor has such defects. God's love is unconditional and happening all the time.

BTW, I disagree with "so that he can shower His love unconditionally", my understanding is that "kripa baras rahi hai" all the time. It is only our lack of awareness that prevents us from realising this.

 

 

3) Do you believe that this jeev has complete control over it's mind, actions, conduct and all that is born of prakriti (nature)?

 

V: Doesn't the Gita say that it is not possible? I don't remember the shloka.

 

 

4) Why do you believe it became necessary for Lord Krishna to say Shloka 18:66 - "Surrender all duties to Me, seek refuge in Me alone, I shall liberate you from all sins, grieve not."

 

V: Isn't that an appropriate ending?

 

 

5) Does sharanagat bhakt have to remember at all moments? Isn't this automatic, swatah, swabhavik? Does a married women have to remember that she is married? Doesn't surrendering to God happen once, and thereafter work of sharanagat bhakt is completed....

 

V: Yes, absolutely. That is the definition of sharnagat itself.

 

 

If I may add. The word "surrender" in normal parlance conveys or comes from a sense of defeat or helplessness. My understanding of "sharnagat" according to the Gita is that it is a state of mind that stems from awareness.

- gyanyoga: sharnagat stems from awareness of "Vasudev Sarvam"

- karmayoga?: sharnagat stems from awareness that everything is happening according to god's will

- bhaktiyoga: sharnagat stems from awareness of "mere to Girdhar Gopal, doosra na koi"

 

 

In that context, with due respect, all the questions raised above are not the questions that one should be thinking of. The question should be "what is preventing me from being sharnagat?" I have been thinking about this and my feeling is that, for me, it must be that somewhere I must be reluctant to believe / accept that the Gita is "God's Vani". What do you'll think?

 

Ram Ram

vinay

a sadhaka

[Guest guest]

Ram Ram

 

God Himself says in the Gita that He is easily attainable by him who

constantly remembers Him and does not think of anything else. (Gita 8:14).

God attainment is not difficult. The condition is that he should think of or

want nothing else, he should constantly (from the time he wakes up till the

time he sleeps and from the day he decides till the day he dies) think of

God. It cannot be difficult. We are His and He is ours - so how can it be

difficult. The difficulty is felt because we do not accept that we are only

His and only He is ours. We have accepted many things that are not ours as

ours. That is why attaining what is ours seems so difficult.

 

With regard to 9:30 and 9:31 what is most important is the word 'ananya'.

There has to be exclusivity. As soon as there is exclusive decision, the

person should be considered a saint. God says that consider him to be a

saint because he has rightly resolved. The resolution has to be exclusive.

The resolution is by the Self - it is not by the mind or intellect. This

resolution is by the Self. There may be sins being committed by them due to

their past nature, but if his resolution is exclusively to attain God -

consider him a saint. The importance is of exclusivity - and only when there

is exclusivity you attain the exclusive - God.

 

God is easily attained by exclusivity. Such a person becomes virtuous very

quickly. This is because he has changed his ego (acceptance of who he is).

He has accepted that he is God's and has to attain God. He has removed his

affinity with the world and realised his true relation with God. Only God is

important for him. Once a person changes his ego, his actions will

automatically change. If you accept that you are not a thief, you cannot

steal. To steal you have to first become a thief. You cannot steal without

first becoming (accepting that you are) a thief. So when you have accepted

(changed your ego) that you are God's - you cannot do anything against His

will.

 

As regards the removal of impurities are concerned, the impurities are

present only because of the affinity with the world. As soon as there is

exclusive affinity with God, the impurities cannot stay. They will naturally

go away because they are not actually part of your nature. Desire for the

world is what is the cause of all impurities. Accepting as yours what is not

yours is the root of all faults. As soon as you have an inclination towards

God (exclusively), your sins of thousands of lives are destroyed instantly.

 

So have exclusive devotion and attain God easily.

[Guest guest]

In my limited understanding there are two aspects to this Shloka:

One is to give hope to even the most sinful person that if he is

willing to give up his sinful ways than God will help him.

 

Second: The key point here is exclusive devotion to God as a pre-

requisite, and then God in turn frees the devotee of all his sins.

We all know how hard it is to even to have a little devotion to God,

what to talk about EXCLUSIVE DEVOTION. Exclusive devotion does not

happen just by wishing. Person must have done lot of work in the

previous lives to have evolved to that level where he can have

/experience exclusive devotion. Why then he is in a sinful

situation ? most likely as a result of Prarabdha karma forcing the

person to live a life of sinfulness. When that Prarabdha karma has

run its course the Exclusive devotion will re-awaken in him ( that he has

cultivated in all the previous lifetimes ) and he will surrender to God and like

it says in this verse and God will take care of him from than on. Perfect

example is dacoit Ratnaker who became Sage Valmiki. Another story is of

Angulimaal from Buddha's time.

 

Humbly submitted

 

Jag Aggarwal

 

 

, " mdoshi2 " <mdoshi2 wrote:

>

> Shree Hari

>

> Gita 9:30 & 31 says - " Even the man of the most sinful conduct

> worships Me with exclusive devotion, he is considered a saint; for

> he has rightly resolved. No, soon he becomes virtuous and obtains

> lasting peace.... My devotee never falls. "

>

> How is one to interpret this shloka. In discourses given by

various

> spiritual leaders, I have heard that realizing God is very

> difficult. It takes many births of purifying one's Self through

> various disciplines and practices and only after being void of all

> impurities, one becomes deserving of God Realization or Self

> Realization. Yet, from this shloka it seems very simple and

> straight forward. All that is required is exlusive devotion even

> though one may have been a worst sinner.

>

> Please help me understand whether it is essential to remove all

> impurities as heard from various spiritual leaders to realize God?

> Please help explain what Lord Krishna meant in these shlokas.

>

> A Devotee

>