QS: Gita 13:31 Self (Atma) is neither doer, nor experiencer.

December 7, 2005

Ram Ram

Please see comments in red.

Questions: 1) Is this just a matter of knowing (jnana)? Or is it something that one has to realize (through anubhava)?

The jnana that we talk about is knowledge through our intellect. We have merely learnt these facts without accepting them. The learning is by the intellect (a part of prakriti). Realisation comes from acceptance - not be learning. Acceptance is not done by mind or intellect - it is done by the Self. What is stated in the Gita is true. They can be experienced by acceptance only. In fact, we all have experienced this fact. We just do not give it importance. Who amongst us holds ourself responsible for the circulation of blood, for the digestion of food? These are actions that happen naturally - we do not hold ourself to be the doer of these actions. If you are engrossed in a particular activity you will not even realise it if an elephant passes in front of you. You become the experiencer only when you join yourself with the activity. When you become the doer or have a desire for the result.

So the realisation comes by acceptance. The experience is actually your acceptance.

2) Since the Self is neither a doer, it is flawless, and untainted by anything, why has Lord Krishna given so much importance and dedicated chapters of the Gita to that which is born of prakriti (nature), such as Gunas - Rajas, Tamas, Sattva, eight limbs of yoga, purification of thoughts, actions etc.

As stated by Madanji, the Gita is for everyone and different people are at different stages. The percentage of realisation and acceptance differs. The reality has been stated and all means to realise the reality has also been stated. The Gita does not give you just one path - it gives you all the paths. You can choose whichever one suits you best. The fact that this question has been asked, shows its importance. Lord Krishna has given it so much importance because we are so much attached to prakriti and its Gunas, even though we are flawless and untainted.

3) Further in Gita 13:35, Lord Krishna also says that, "the one who perceives with the eye of wisdom, this distinction, and sees the Self as separate from Prakriti has attained the Supreme Consciousness." How is one to get beyond just knowing and actually perceive this distinction between Self (Knower of Field) and Prakriti - the Field (Body, Mind, Intellect, Ego and all that is born of nature). How is one to truly realize the depth of this message? Does Gita elaborate on the means to attain this realization? The true depth of this message is realised only by His Grace. His Grace is always on us. We just have to accept His Grace. We just have to realise His Grace.

Realisation comes from acceptance. As Swamiji used to say -

'Once, with a simple heart and with determination, firmly ACCEPT -

i. I am only God's.

ii. Only God is mine.

iii. Only God IS.

iv. Everything is only God.

This is a sure shot way of realisation. There is no doubt, can be no doubt in it. Those with a reasoning and thinking mind can think and reason all that they want to but in the end they will have to come to accepting this fact - because it is THE TRUTH.

Ram Ram

December 8, 2005

Shree Hari

Ram Ram!

Very good response to the questions! I would like to add to the response for question #3 (Verse 13-34) in green -

13th Chapter of Gita predominantly deals with Jnana Yoga, in Jnana Yoga, the realization is through use of Viveka and Vichaar, pure intellect transcends to Viveka according to Swamiji Maharaj, which in turn will lead to acceptance by the Self!

In contrast, for the Bhakti Yoga the realization comes through the acceptance by the Self through complete surrender to God as already explained by Madhviji in the response in red.

With warm regards,

A devotee!

On Behalf Of Gita Prapann ParivarWednesday, December 07, 2005 11:06 PM Subject: Re: QS: Gita 13:31 Self (Atma) is neither doer, nor experiencer.

Ram Ram

Please see comments in red.

Questions: 1) Is this just a matter of knowing (jnana)? Or is it something that one has to realize (through anubhava)?

The jnana that we talk about is knowledge through our intellect. We have merely learnt these facts without accepting them. The learning is by the intellect (a part of prakriti). Realisation comes from acceptance - not be learning. Acceptance is not done by mind or intellect - it is done by the Self. What is stated in the Gita is true. They can be experienced by acceptance only. In fact, we all have experienced this fact. We just do not give it importance. Who amongst us holds ourself responsible for the circulation of blood, for the digestion of food? These are actions that happen naturally - we do not hold ourself to be the doer of these actions. If you are engrossed in a particular activity you will not even realise it if an elephant passes in front of you. You become the experiencer only when you join yourself with the activity. When you become the doer or have a desire for the result.

So the realisation comes by acceptance. The experience is actually your acceptance.

2) Since the Self is neither a doer, it is flawless, and untainted by anything, why has Lord Krishna given so much importance and dedicated chapters of the Gita to that which is born of prakriti (nature), such as Gunas - Rajas, Tamas, Sattva, eight limbs of yoga, purification of thoughts, actions etc.

As stated by Madanji, the Gita is for everyone and different people are at different stages. The percentage of realisation and acceptance differs. The reality has been stated and all means to realise the reality has also been stated. The Gita does not give you just one path - it gives you all the paths. You can choose whichever one suits you best. The fact that this question has been asked, shows its importance. Lord Krishna has given it so much importance because we are so much attached to prakriti and its Gunas, even though we are flawless and untainted.

3) Further in Gita 13:35, Lord Krishna also says that, "the one who perceives with the eye of wisdom, this distinction, and sees the Self as separate from Prakriti has attained the Supreme Consciousness." How is one to get beyond just knowing and actually perceive this distinction between Self (Knower of Field) and Prakriti - the Field (Body, Mind, Intellect, Ego and all that is born of nature). How is one to truly realize the depth of this message? Does Gita elaborate on the means to attain this realization? The true depth of this message is realised only by His Grace. His Grace is always on us. We just have to accept His Grace. We just have to realise His Grace.

Realisation comes from acceptance. As Swamiji used to say -

'Once, with a simple heart and with determination, firmly ACCEPT -

i. I am only God's.

ii. Only God is mine.

iii. Only God IS.

iv. Everything is only God.

This is a sure shot way of realisation. There is no doubt, can be no doubt in it. Those with a reasoning and thinking mind can think and reason all that they want to but in the end they will have to come to accepting this fact - because it is THE TRUTH.

Ram Ram