Guest guest Posted July 4, 2006 Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 Dear Friend, Love and best wishes, Please remember that the Books / Scriptures are the only guiding sources we have right now. These great monumental works have not been written now or with any selfish motive then. They are the torch-bearers and show the correct path to the mankind, who have been groping in the darkness of ajnana and wish to come out of it and, at the same time, grappling with the mundane existence and pleasures. These great scriptures stood firm all along in spite of several onslaughts waged by the overall degradation in system due to selfishness resulting in slow and steady extinction of moral values. The wisdom contained in these books is the only way out to realise the Ultimate Ananda. Unfortunately, neither you believe what has been written in these books nor you respect the wisdom of great saints. I sincerely request you to come out of your self-imposed shell and try to see the Truth. I am sure, you will realise the reality and the love we all have for you and your welfare. Kindly do not close your eyes and say that you are in darkness and close your ears and say that you do not hear anything. There are innumerable instances in India and elsewhere to show you that one realises the Truth only when one opens up and accepts. An upside-down tumbler will not hold water even if you keep it under continuously flowing tap for years together. May God Bless You. Love and Love alone .... P. Gopi Krishna On 7/4/06, jvardya <jvardya wrote: Om Shanti I want to thank you and appreciate your reply. This will be my last communication on this subject. I and you are discussing this subject on two different levels. You have total faith in the " BOOKS " and you accept that as the total Truth regardless of the statement. On the other hand I want convincing logic to accept some statements. Because what ALL is being stated in the Book does not meet my test of believability. For instance - cycling of souls. No one believes that except Hindus and there is no convincing proof or logic offered to support this theory. It is just a theory. The stories of Past Life experiences are really not scrutinized closely enough to determine believability. If you don't believe in Soul recycling, then past Karma has no relevancy. And a lot of conclusions become redundant or ir-relevant. The concept of Heaven and Hell has nothing to do with the concept of recycling. Heaven and Hell are After Life consequences. If you ponder on this subject a little more, you will realize that this concept was introduced in the scriptures so that Mankind or people in general act " nicely " and be civil to each other. Some thing like the Ten Commandments. Good guidelines for the masses but far from reality. All the guidelines and suggestions in the scriptures are good for the masses. But you have to be able to see the reality from " good " intention concepts. Om Shanti -------------- Original message from " Manjula Patel " <manjumaa: -------------- My very own, Pranam. I have tried to answer your questions in your email. I highly recommend reading chapter 4 and digesting it as it answers lot more than just discussed here. Thanks, always in service at Thy Lotus Feet. On 7/3/06, jvardya <jvardya wrote: Om Shanti. 1. It is very easy and convenient to say that what we are experiencing today is the result of past " Karma " . How, why ? Just because a Swamiji / book says so does not make it so. As far as I can see there is no link to the past. None has been established. All a conjecture. Past Karma then becomes an easy, catch all, explanation for whatever is happening to a person. Just an " escapism " . Answer: I always thought (at least for myself) that it has been always easy to point finger at others than accepting or taking responsibilities of my action when something goes wrong and taking all credits if something goes well :-) If that is not true for someone, my humble pranams to that being - he/she is already in the list of being a saint. Lord said in Gitaji (Chapter 4:Slokas 1-5) that you and I have passed through many births, I remember them but you don't... Our saints & sages have been the greatest scientists and they have studied for ages and whatever they discovered have came out as our scriptures. In this very age, we have so many reported incidents of childern recollecting their past lives or those who meditate on a regular basis recall their past lives! Lord also said (18:68), 'idam te naatapaskaaya naabhaktaaya kadaachana...' One can not make anyone understand if the person has no willingness/inclination/desire/openness to understand. 2. Let us think about some of the other faiths in the world. According to Quran, once a person dies, his soul does not come back to earth. No recycling of souls. Who is right? Certainly, the treatment of Souls after death would be the same for Hindus as well as Muslims, I would think. Even Christians do not believe in recycling of souls. Hence, no carrying forward of Karma to the next life. Answer: I have not read The Quran so I can't speak what this Holy Book has to say but they do have concepts of 'jannata' and 'jahannum' - heaven & hell...!!! So...? In The Bible there is a mention of returning back of John the Baptist. There is also no recycling of soul in the Sanaatan Dharma or so called 'Hinduism' as mentioned in Gitaji (4:9-10) - 'janma karma cha me divyam... vitaraagabhayakrodhaa...' 3. The decisions you make today certainly affects the outcome - short term. Within this life span and is measurable/record-able. Your physical/mental capabilities certainly determine how successful, (needs definition?), you are in life and how much capacity you have for happiness. Answer: 'The decisions you make...', just like that the decisions (desires) you made (had) in past lives affect your present life too & they can be short term as well as long term and yes they are also measurable/recordable - possible for those who have been meditating for long and have become knower of their past deeds. One who has reached equanimity is beyond success-failure, happiness-unhappiness/sadness/sorrowfulness - our scriptures have been calling this as living in 'Bliss'. 4. Gita is wonderful if you start in that faith. So is Quran. Both have a common denominator - a person is born into that particular faith. Have you evaluated the other faiths and then decided which is the best. There are contradictions between Gita, Quran and Bible. For instance, Quran says 'it is the duty of a Muslim to kill the infidels'. When this Muslim person dies, he goes to a special place (heaven) with Allah. Which one is right? Remember, there are a lot more Muslims than Hindus. Answer: Yes, faith is all what it takes and sure one can evaluate as many Faiths/Religions as they want and can take whatever they like out of it - both so called 'good' or 'evil', it is up to the individual and God reaches to all (4:11). I only know that all so called 'Faiths' lead to one TRUTH! Any realized saint from any religion will agree to it as they have no attachment to so called 'Faith/Religion'. I have known Muslims and Christians go to their places of worships with full faith in their religion and also have very strong faith in Vedanta so otherway around can be true too - Ramkrishna Paramhamsa followed many Faiths and proved that it all reached to the same conclusion! One can reach at the top of mountain from any side - north/south/east/west/north-east/north-west/etc..., circulating, straight or crooked way, slowly walking or running (according to their temprament and capacity) but eventually all will reach the Top - The Highest. There are stumbling blocks, hurdels, resistance and one may fall down and start all over again. My Baba says that all religions of the world are like petals of a flower and if you pluck any of these petals, the flower looses its beauty! So each and every Faith has its beauty, one needs clean eye to see it. 5. Intellectually, it helps if you concentrate on action (or Karma - prudent and fair) and not worry about the outcome, which is beyond your control anyway. A very practical approach to life. But when you loose the " I " , you would also loose people like Mittal Steel, Infosys, etc. They are the risk takers and they are trying to satisfy their ego or " I " . A very important part of the community for economic prosperity. In Sanatan Dharma / Hindu scriptures are full of examples where entereprenures had contributed in community for economic prosperity and have been detached - they were kings, ministers, teachers, businessmen, sweepers, farmers, etc. (4:13-15) - they all have given their fair shares for the community growth and they were far far away from 'I'. If one has desire to remain attached to certain people, they have not left 'I' even though they think they have. The so called big/famous/prosperous people with name-fame associated with them will go to this pure hearted person who has left 'I' not the otherway around!!! When Alexander attacked India he wanted to take a True Saint with him but failed...! To believe something either we have to trust other's words (our saints/sages/scriptures/guru) who have rediscovered themselves or if we don't trust them then we should have courage to experiment ourselves following the exact steps/methods recommended by them and come to a conclusion. Yoga (karma, gyaan, bhakti, whatever...) & meditations are not someones imaginary creation. It has been practiced for ages and same conclusion has been reached by all that there is One & ONLY One Truth exist! No intelligence is needed in performing experiment as someone has already figured it out - just like H2O, i.e., when 2 proportion of hydrogen is mixed with oxygen, it produces water - now dummy or intelligent one performs this experiment they both would end up concluding the same!!!!! It is up to us to put the teachings of our Rishis in practice with the right kind of understanding. humble regards. Om Shanti. -------------- Original message from " Manjula Patel " < manjumaa: -------------- Loving Divine, Pranam. Neither Lord in Gitaji nor Swamiji Maharaj nor any other saints and sages have ever requested any family man/woman to leave their family, not to earn and provide material things to survive or do their duties...!!! We interpret it this way only because we are very much situated in or attached to the matter, World, Prakriti, or in that which is always moving. Please read and digest Chapter 3 of Gitaji. No one can ever remain without action - physical or mental (3:4) - breathing is also an action. Lord Himself is guiding Arjun to do his duty and fight. So our misunderstanding lies in our ignorance only! Our ego and play of our mind (Maya) create such ignorance due to which we remain far away from God. Even Lord said in Gitaji, 'manushyanaam sahastreshu...(7:3)' that only rare one attains ME and it is all due to this ignorance. Let's cross our ego - 'ahamtaa' and focus on who is behind this 'I' or allowing us to say 'I am..' / 'me...' / 'my..' or 'mine...' We say these things like - this is my house or my wife or my family. We also say my mind is tired or my intellect is not working or my memory is blocked or my ego came in between. We also say things like 'why me?' or 'I tried everything but the result is adverse and unexpected' or 'I don't know what caused it?' So these 3 sets of questions or sentences focus on gross, astral or causal aspect of us - so for most of us this 'I' is strongly associated with these 3 aspects of our life (Prakriti, ego, mind, intelluct & memory, & ignorance) but there is another 'I' - 'The Self' that is within & outside us and is beyond these 3 aspects and Swamiji Maharaj or other siants and sages point us towards IT when they talk about 'vairaagya'. When we are situated in that higher 'I' or 'The Self', we know that ALL is DONE by IT and not by usual 'I, me, my, or mine...' Being aware of the actual DOER of our actions brings detachment t o it - job is done, money is earned, family is taken care of, all required duties are performed but not by the usual 'I/me/my/mine...' rather this superior Self who leads (makes it possible) us to do it all and thus detachment or egolessness develops. So if you read those 3 sets of questions or comments again and ask yourself 'WHO is it behind this 'I' that knows about all activities of this lower 'I'; who is that Shaakshi; you might be able to see the point that Swamiji Maharaj is making. You may agree to call IT as The God like most of us or give IT a name that suits your temprament, it doesn't matter!!! :-) Without breath where is this so called 'I/me or mine...? Who is breathing within you? Who is keeping you alive? In past we had some good discussion to understand this lower 'I' and higher 'Self' so would like to point you to few of the examples listed in those emails that have been archieved at /. Please read responses # 99, 101, 110, 116, 125, 127, 136, 139, 142, 145, 152, 164, 166, & 168 (I don't know exactly which email will fit the best - they all have something to help enhance our understanding). The areas of Prakriti that we human beings are able to know and define, we use some name to identify those forms and to show superiority of that aspect we have been calling them God - we have no control over it and you know..., surprisingly enough nothing falls beyond earth (mater), water, fire (light), air, & vacuum (our body is made up of these 5 elements and so is the rest of material creation) + antahkaran (ego, memory, mind & intellect) so whatever that is beyond these elements our Saints and Sages have been calling IT God / Brahman / Self. Historically, they all knew this aspect of us called 'The God - one & only one, all pervading, all knowing, deathless, birthless, still, bliss, live (Chetan), detached, perfect, etc.' So called god/lord of earth, water, fire, air, space/vacuum, mind, ego, intellect, etc. are categorized into demi gods (prayers to them also reach The God). 'The God' is beyond everything and that's what we are discussing here - keeping teachings of Gitaji/Lord Krishna as our medium. Swamiji Maharaj has been a great help in understanding and interpreting Gitaji for us and how to realize The God or Self. No one is born simply by the act of others, we are brought on this earth ONLY because of OUR OWN action (karma)!!! Based on our karma we were attracted to our mother's womb. Because of her karma she was able to sustain us! So due to our mutual karma, we are born in the family we are born with the siblings and relatives we have!!! So if we have attitude to blame others for our existence, please let us correct it first. We are put in a right place, right time, amongst right people every moment so that we evolve. Hope this helps... Love always... At Thy Divine Feet On 7/1/06, jvardya < jvardya wrote: Om Shanti. I have been reading the correspondence from you and the Readers. Some of the messages are esoteric and difficult to relate to in terms of practical every day life. We all have to earn a living and provide for material things for the family. Basic survival things like housing, food , resources for education, etc. There is an enormous satisfaction in achieving goals such as financial, career, etc. We can not just renounce the world of materialism and give up all things and become totally detached. And for what? To become totally passive. That brings me to ask the basic question - HOW DO YOU DEFINE GOD ? Not his attributes but the basic definition. Is God embodiment of all that we do not know? Historically, that is the definition. From the old times, if we did not understand Fire or lightning etc., we lumped that phenomenon as God of Fire, etc.. And why is it important to relate to God in everyday life. I can be just as happy or happier without recognition of God. I thought that was the goal in life - to be happy and make others happy with your behavior. We did not come in to Life with our own will but by the action of others. So you try to make the best of it. Thank you. Suresh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2006 Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 My Dear Friend, Love and Love alone ... Now, I can understand that you are in a fighting mood. I thought not to respond, but I should let you know what Paramacharya Sri Chandrasekhara Saraswati of Kanchi Kamakoti Pitham said and I quote " In all that you do, let love be the sole motive. Any deed must be with reference to another. Action implies the acted-upon as much as the agent. Let action be out of love. I am not here referring to the Gandhian gospel of ahimsa. There may be situations which demand violent action. Punishment, for instance, may be necessary. Even wars may have to be waged. But whatever be the nature of the action, the agent must act out of love. Passions such as desire and hatred, anger and malice must be totally eschewed. If love becomes the guiding principle of all deeds, then most of the ills of the world will vanish " . unquote. I sincerely try to follow the above. Now coming back to your series of questions, I must say that I do not have to read all the scriptures to know the Reality. Suffice to say, our mind is our best friend and the worst enemy. But, for most of the questions that you raised, I am honest in my expressions, that I have answers. And, I am very confident in saying that HE is guiding my every single step. I am putting in my best to learn whatever has been taught by HIM. I have no hesitation and shame in admitting to what I do not know. One does not need to dip the whole hand in a boiling rice pot to see whether the rice has been cooked full or not, taking out one grain to test it is sufficient. I am sure, you got the answer. I have full faith in myself, in my religion, in the scriptures, in the Guru and in God. What else do I require to follow the right path? I am ready to answer any of your questions at personal level, as we should not use this forum to drag on this discussion further. I hope you understand and appreciate my feelings. Love and May God Bless You. P. Gopi Krishna On 7/5/06, Manjula Patel <manjumaa wrote: Loving Divine, Pranam. I have a request, please provide honest answers to yourself (we don't need to hear any of it because your honesty to yourself will help you only :-)) How many scriptures have you read? As mentioned in the email you don't have any faith in so called 'BOOK' but you mentioned about ALL that is written in them - makes us belive you have read them all - Bagawada Gita (there are other Gitas too written by other Sages!), Vedas-Upanishads, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Bhaktisutras, Aatmabodh, Tatvabodh, Torah, Quran, Bible, Shri Gurugranthsaheb, etc. (and you really could not find anything that can really help you transform? Entire life can be spent just sticking to one teaching, e.g., being honest - not with others but your very own self, and nothing else would have needed to accept from any of the so called 'BOOK'.) How many did you truly understand? How much effort did you put in truly understanding them before concluding that they are not for you to trust? Were you discussing the subject for the sake of discussion because you have merely heard those sentences from somebody else too and found them very convenient to believe (without doing much investigation) usually that is the easy route people take to hide their weaknesses (I am not saying necessarily that you are doing it, I am mentioning the usual route...) Did you ever tried honestly to follow any of the teachings of any of the scriptures? Did any of it transformed your life? If not did you search your heart that where were you lacking? During this transformation did you run into any difficulties? If yes, did you take the help of same scripture to find out an answer OR did you humbly request any wise/holyman/so called Swamiji for assistance? If yes, were you rejected by any of them saying that they can't guide you based on what our scriptures have to say? If yes, did that scripture/guru provided you guidance? If I say I know my past lives would you believe it? If I tell you my experience of yoga-meditation matches with what is written in the scriptures, would you ever believe it? If I tell you I accepted the challenge to experiment myself (why trust anybody?) and honestly tried to follow what my Baba/Guru had to say and He was kind enough to help me see what I needed to see in the scriptures, would you believe it? If I tell you that you don't need any book or any guru to know your True Faith, would you believe it? If I tell you that the Soul is NEVER recycled, it is just a mind game / Maya, would you believe it? Do you really trust yourself? Do you really want to transform? Do you really trust any Faith? Do you really trust anybody? How much do you know about yourself? Do you really know anything at all? WHO are YOU? Again, no need to answer any of it to anybody, just to yourself only ;-) That is the beauty of Maya :-), we don't truly trust anybody but our own self, i.e., 'I' - the ego aspect, and we like to play the game with our own self (I called them cheating games - if you become aware of how your mind and ego plays with you, you would understand what I am saying... - be a SHAAKSHI first and you will know it all :-)). We think we have full faith in ourselves, our strength, our capacity, etc. and that's why it is extremely difficult to completely 'surrender' to God. As Lord said in Gitaji that you are your friend and you are your enemy. However many proofs are presented to however many people by however many Saints & Sages, until we do it ourselves no proof is good enough!!!!!!!!!!!!! One would believe what experiences they have or how much they want to expand them. Most of us don't want to learn from others mistakes (because we think I am not that dumm...) but end up making the same mistakes and learn from it when Prakriti decides to teach the lesson harder way! Most of us don't want to wake-up until forced to do so. Bagavad Gita is not a book of external fight that took place in Kurukshetra, it is a book of fight that continuously happens within us between our lower self and higher self, between our mind and intellect, between our good habits and bad/evil/animalistic tendencies, between our own bondage & effort to liberate. It is a great book of psychology. Similarly other Holy Scriptures from other Faith represents the same thing but who truly takes interest in looking within while reading them? We all are so tightly trapped by Mahamaya, we don't have time to look within; no time to contemplate, no time to take deep dive!!! We read them just for the sake of reading - why bother implementing anything? Who is true Muslim? Do you even know the meaning of Muslim? What does it mean to kill infidels? We search answers outside but they are related to our inner being. Just like we have Kauravs (our bad tendencies/habits) to be killed, we have infidels to kill. We consider all external glitter as Gold and miss out on the true Diamond within!!! Those who searches within are the recipient... After asking tons of questions to Krishna (Supreme Soul), Arjun (Lower Self) finally said that now I know my true self, I surrender, I will do whatever you would ask me to do (18:73 - nashto moha smutir...) Whether there is recycling of soul or not, whether there is karma theory or not - NONE matters IF WE ARE NOT WILLING TO TRANSFORM OURSELVES!!! I say there is no recycling of soul, I completely AGREE with YOU because it is all mind game, so now I say let's discover 'who am I?' in this very life, in this very moment, just NOW. To study our own self no BOOK or SWAMI or GURU is needed, only what is needed is to look within, watch our own thoughts - the mind game, watch our own ego, watch how convincing they become in making us slip from our goal/effort - CAN WE NOT DO THAT PLEASE????? Be honest to our own self? Be watchful of our own self? Enjoy being our own self? My love forever, at Thy Lotus Feet from where the energy flows to strengthen our Faith in WHO TRULY WE ARE On 7/4/06, jvardya < jvardya wrote: Om Shanti I want to thank you and appreciate your reply. This will be my last communication on this subject. I and you are discussing this subject on two different levels. You have total faith in the " BOOKS " and you accept that as the total Truth regardless of the statement. On the other hand I want convincing logic to accept some statements. Because what ALL is being stated in the Book does not meet my test of believability. For instance - cycling of souls. No one believes that except Hindus and there is no convincing proof or logic offered to support this theory. It is just a theory. The stories of Past Life experiences are really not scrutinized closely enough to determine believability. If you don't believe in Soul recycling, then past Karma has no relevancy. And a lot of conclusions become redundant or ir-relevant. The concept of Heaven and Hell has nothing to do with the concept of recycling. Heaven and Hell are After Life consequences. If you ponder on this subject a little more, you will realize that this concept was introduced in the scriptures so that Mankind or people in general act " nicely " and be civil to each other. Some thing like the Ten Commandments. Good guidelines for the masses but far from reality. All the guidelines and suggestions in the scriptures are good for the masses. But you have to be able to see the reality from " good " intention concepts. Om Shanti -------------- Original message from " Manjula Patel " < manjumaa: -------------- My very own, Pranam. I have tried to answer your questions in your email. I highly recommend reading chapter 4 and digesting it as it answers lot more than just discussed here. Thanks, always in service at Thy Lotus Feet. On 7/3/06, jvardya < jvardya wrote: Om Shanti. 1. It is very easy and convenient to say that what we are experiencing today is the result of past " Karma " . How, why ? Just because a Swamiji / book says so does not make it so. As far as I can see there is no link to the past. None has been established. All a conjecture. Past Karma then becomes an easy, catch all, explanation for whatever is happening to a person. Just an " escapism " . Answer: I always thought (at least for myself) that it has been always easy to point finger at others than accepting or taking responsibilities of my action when something goes wrong and taking all credits if something goes well :-) If that is not true for someone, my humble pranams to that being - he/she is already in the list of being a saint. Lord said in Gitaji (Chapter 4:Slokas 1-5) that you and I have passed through many births, I remember them but you don't... Our saints & sages have been the greatest scientists and they have studied for ages and whatever they discovered have came out as our scriptures. In this very age, we have so many reported incidents of childern recollecting their past lives or those who meditate on a regular basis recall their past lives! Lord also said (18:68), 'idam te naatapaskaaya naabhaktaaya kadaachana...' One can not make anyone understand if the person has no willingness/inclination/desire/openness to understand. 2. Let us think about some of the other faiths in the world. According to Quran, once a person dies, his soul does not come back to earth. No recycling of souls. Who is right? Certainly, the treatment of Souls after death would be the same for Hindus as well as Muslims, I would think. Even Christians do not believe in recycling of souls. Hence, no carrying forward of Karma to the next life. Answer: I have not read The Quran so I can't speak what this Holy Book has to say but they do have concepts of 'jannata' and 'jahannum' - heaven & hell...!!! So...? In The Bible there is a mention of returning back of John the Baptist. There is also no recycling of soul in the Sanaatan Dharma or so called 'Hinduism' as mentioned in Gitaji (4:9-10) - 'janma karma cha me divyam... vitaraagabhayakrodhaa...' 3. The decisions you make today certainly affects the outcome - short term. Within this life span and is measurable/record-able. Your physical/mental capabilities certainly determine how successful, (needs definition?), you are in life and how much capacity you have for happiness. Answer: 'The decisions you make...', just like that the decisions (desires) you made (had) in past lives affect your present life too & they can be short term as well as long term and yes they are also measurable/recordable - possible for those who have been meditating for long and have become knower of their past deeds. One who has reached equanimity is beyond success-failure, happiness-unhappiness/sadness/sorrowfulness - our scriptures have been calling this as living in 'Bliss'. 4. Gita is wonderful if you start in that faith. So is Quran. Both have a common denominator - a person is born into that particular faith. Have you evaluated the other faiths and then decided which is the best. There are contradictions between Gita, Quran and Bible. For instance, Quran says 'it is the duty of a Muslim to kill the infidels'. When this Muslim person dies, he goes to a special place (heaven) with Allah. Which one is right? Remember, there are a lot more Muslims than Hindus. Answer: Yes, faith is all what it takes and sure one can evaluate as many Faiths/Religions as they want and can take whatever they like out of it - both so called 'good' or 'evil', it is up to the individual and God reaches to all (4:11). I only know that all so called 'Faiths' lead to one TRUTH! Any realized saint from any religion will agree to it as they have no attachment to so called 'Faith/Religion'. I have known Muslims and Christians go to their places of worships with full faith in their religion and also have very strong faith in Vedanta so otherway around can be true too - Ramkrishna Paramhamsa followed many Faiths and proved that it all reached to the same conclusion! One can reach at the top of mountain from any side - north/south/east/west/north-east/north-west/etc..., circulating, straight or crooked way, slowly walking or running (according to their temprament and capacity) but eventually all will reach the Top - The Highest. There are stumbling blocks, hurdels, resistance and one may fall down and start all over again. My Baba says that all religions of the world are like petals of a flower and if you pluck any of these petals, the flower looses its beauty! So each and every Faith has its beauty, one needs clean eye to see it. 5. Intellectually, it helps if you concentrate on action (or Karma - prudent and fair) and not worry about the outcome, which is beyond your control anyway. A very practical approach to life. But when you loose the " I " , you would also loose people like Mittal Steel, Infosys, etc. They are the risk takers and they are trying to satisfy their ego or " I " . A very important part of the community for economic prosperity. In Sanatan Dharma / Hindu scriptures are full of examples where entereprenures had contributed in community for economic prosperity and have been detached - they were kings, ministers, teachers, businessmen, sweepers, farmers, etc. (4:13-15) - they all have given their fair shares for the community growth and they were far far away from 'I'. If one has desire to remain attached to certain people, they have not left 'I' even though they think they have. The so called big/famous/prosperous people with name-fame associated with them will go to this pure hearted person who has left 'I' not the otherway around!!! When Alexander attacked India he wanted to take a True Saint with him but failed...! To believe something either we have to trust other's words (our saints/sages/scriptures/guru) who have rediscovered themselves or if we don't trust them then we should have courage to experiment ourselves following the exact steps/methods recommended by them and come to a conclusion. Yoga (karma, gyaan, bhakti, whatever...) & meditations are not someones imaginary creation. It has been practiced for ages and same conclusion has been reached by all that there is One & ONLY One Truth exist! No intelligence is needed in performing experiment as someone has already figured it out - just like H2O, i.e., when 2 proportion of hydrogen is mixed with oxygen, it produces water - now dummy or intelligent one performs this experiment they both would end up concluding the same!!!!! It is up to us to put the teachings of our Rishis in practice with the right kind of understanding. humble regards. Om Shanti. -------------- Original message from " Manjula Patel " < manjumaa: -------------- Loving Divine, Pranam. Neither Lord in Gitaji nor Swamiji Maharaj nor any other saints and sages have ever requested any family man/woman to leave their family, not to earn and provide material things to survive or do their duties...!!! We interpret it this way only because we are very much situated in or attached to the matter, World, Prakriti, or in that which is always moving. Please read and digest Chapter 3 of Gitaji. No one can ever remain without action - physical or mental (3:4) - breathing is also an action. Lord Himself is guiding Arjun to do his duty and fight. So our misunderstanding lies in our ignorance only! Our ego and play of our mind (Maya) create such ignorance due to which we remain far away from God. Even Lord said in Gitaji, 'manushyanaam sahastreshu...(7:3)' that only rare one attains ME and it is all due to this ignorance. Let's cross our ego - 'ahamtaa' and focus on who is behind this 'I' or allowing us to say 'I am..' / 'me...' / 'my..' or 'mine...' We say these things like - this is my house or my wife or my family. We also say my mind is tired or my intellect is not working or my memory is blocked or my ego came in between. We also say things like 'why me?' or 'I tried everything but the result is adverse and unexpected' or 'I don't know what caused it?' So these 3 sets of questions or sentences focus on gross, astral or causal aspect of us - so for most of us this 'I' is strongly associated with these 3 aspects of our life (Prakriti, ego, mind, intelluct & memory, & ignorance) but there is another 'I' - 'The Self' that is within & outside us and is beyond these 3 aspects and Swamiji Maharaj or other siants and sages point us towards IT when they talk about 'vairaagya'. When we are situated in that higher 'I' or 'The Self', we know that ALL is DONE by IT and not by usual 'I, me, my, or mine...' Being aware of the actual DOER of our actions brings detachment t o it - job is done, money is earned, family is taken care of, all required duties are performed but not by the usual 'I/me/my/mine...' rather this superior Self who leads (makes it possible) us to do it all and thus detachment or egolessness develops. So if you read those 3 sets of questions or comments again and ask yourself 'WHO is it behind this 'I' that knows about all activities of this lower 'I'; who is that Shaakshi; you might be able to see the point that Swamiji Maharaj is making. You may agree to call IT as The God like most of us or give IT a name that suits your temprament, it doesn't matter!!! :-) Without breath where is this so called 'I/me or mine...? Who is breathing within you? Who is keeping you alive? In past we had some good discussion to understand this lower 'I' and higher 'Self' so would like to point you to few of the examples listed in those emails that have been archieved at /. Please read responses # 99, 101, 110, 116, 125, 127, 136, 139, 142, 145, 152, 164, 166, & 168 (I don't know exactly which email will fit the best - they all have something to help enhance our understanding). The areas of Prakriti that we human beings are able to know and define, we use some name to identify those forms and to show superiority of that aspect we have been calling them God - we have no control over it and you know..., surprisingly enough nothing falls beyond earth (mater), water, fire (light), air, & vacuum (our body is made up of these 5 elements and so is the rest of material creation) + antahkaran (ego, memory, mind & intellect) so whatever that is beyond these elements our Saints and Sages have been calling IT God / Brahman / Self. Historically, they all knew this aspect of us called 'The God - one & only one, all pervading, all knowing, deathless, birthless, still, bliss, live (Chetan), detached, perfect, etc.' So called god/lord of earth, water, fire, air, space/vacuum, mind, ego, intellect, etc. are categorized into demi gods (prayers to them also reach The God). 'The God' is beyond everything and that's what we are discussing here - keeping teachings of Gitaji/Lord Krishna as our medium. Swamiji Maharaj has been a great help in understanding and interpreting Gitaji for us and how to realize The God or Self. No one is born simply by the act of others, we are brought on this earth ONLY because of OUR OWN action (karma)!!! Based on our karma we were attracted to our mother's womb. Because of her karma she was able to sustain us! So due to our mutual karma, we are born in the family we are born with the siblings and relatives we have!!! So if we have attitude to blame others for our existence, please let us correct it first. We are put in a right place, right time, amongst right people every moment so that we evolve. Hope this helps... Love always... At Thy Divine Feet On 7/1/06, jvardya < jvardya wrote: Om Shanti. I have been reading the correspondence from you and the Readers. Some of the messages are esoteric and difficult to relate to in terms of practical every day life. We all have to earn a living and provide for material things for the family. Basic survival things like housing, food , resources for education, etc. There is an enormous satisfaction in achieving goals such as financial, career, etc. We can not just renounce the world of materialism and give up all things and become totally detached. And for what? To become totally passive. That brings me to ask the basic question - HOW DO YOU DEFINE GOD ? Not his attributes but the basic definition. Is God embodiment of all that we do not know? Historically, that is the definition. From the old times, if we did not understand Fire or lightning etc., we lumped that phenomenon as God of Fire, etc.. And why is it important to relate to God in everyday life. I can be just as happy or happier without recognition of God. I thought that was the goal in life - to be happy and make others happy with your behavior. We did not come in to Life with our own will but by the action of others. So you try to make the best of it. Thank you. Suresh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 To define God, first we have to define our self. What I am ? Am I the photograph taken during my childhood, my youth stage, my old age or the child in the mother’s womb I am there during my stay in mother’s womb and I am there during my old age. What is it that existing all the time when I am alive and not existing when I am dead. It is me. What am I? What is the difference between George Bush and me, What is the difference between me and my brother if we both are twins with same bodily appearance. The qualities, the personality. A person is identified by his character, personality not by his body features. What is my personality, what is a person’s nature – character. They are the habits or impressions or knowledge of worldly things imprinted in mind. What am I ? a bundle of thoughts, habits, knowledge accompanied by Intellect What am I? Mind, Intellect and thought impressions / habits. From when, Mind & Intellect is active with thoughts? They have been active during my stay in mother’s womb. A person can use his mind & intellect even when his body is paralysed below his neck, when only his brain is active. What am I ? Not physical but spiritual, like a small computer memory chip stored inside the brain, which is called as soul, a point of light, with natural 7 qualities like Knowledge, Purity, Peace, Love, Happiness, Bliss and Powers (8) to Judge, accommodate, detach, tolerate, pack up, face, withdraw and cooperate I can live a peaceful and happy life if I am in my natural qualities (soul consciousness) not coming into body conscious. But now since we have come into body consciousness we have forgotten our original true nature and because of that we have made once heaven into hell (Life on Earth). Students follow Teacher, Travellers follow Guide, Children follow their Father, likewise human being should follow God to regain their original nature. By nature Student is same as teacher and in future student can also become equal to Teacher but Teacher and Student are different, they cannot become One but can become equal. Similarly Guide as traveller and children as Father. To make this hell, again into heaven , we have to regain our lost, forgotten nature, by following the Teacher, Guide and Father of human beings who is called as God. Who is God? Human being’s father is also a human being, Cat’s father is also a Cat, Ant’s father is also an Ant, the source of something will be same as that of the source. Similarly, human being - soul’s father should also be same as that of a human soul with all the original qualities and He is called as Supreme soul. What are the difference between Human soul and Supreme Soul ? Human soul come into the cycle of birth and death and los or forget their original nature. Supreme soul never comes into the cycle of birth and Death, so He remains ever pure retaining His natural qualities always. When the human souls lose or forget their original nature making the once Heaven (Earth) into Hell (Earth again), God’s role is to guide them to their original nature and create the Heaven, once again, on this same Earth. Open multiple messages at once with the all new Mail Beta. Open multiple messages at once with the all new Mail Beta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Dear jvardya, Thanks a lot for the questions. Thanks to many for answering the questions in an excellent way. I really appreciate the questions. But, these are neither being asked for the first time and it will be the last time. People with intellect and inquisitive minds will always ask such questions. I did too. Sankaracharya says - Brooding over own self is the real Bhakti. Unless you think, you can't learn. My ideal Swami V. never accepted anything until he was convinced. His Guru touched him in the chest so that he could understood everything first hand. The point is realizing the TRUTH has to be first hand. Indian philosophy is based on "Realization in this Very Life" concept" and differs markedly from others in this respect. One thing that hits me -whatever things were recorded in the Upanishads (in the pre-historic dawn) has been experienced by sages over the last 3-4 thousand years. The more recent people who have experienced the TRUTH (like Shri Ramana Maharshi, Shri RamaKrishna, Swami Vivekananda, Shri Aurobindo, and many others) have no reasons to tell us lies because they did not want money or fame or any other worldly pleasures. I hold these people with high esteem when I compare their lives with other common people and start to think that there must be something that has incredible intelligence, makes things happen and always keeps itself hidden, is eternal and blissful. What is that nobody has been able to explain in details properly. Because of the infinite nature of that "Something", people have experienced IT at different levels based on their maturity level and have described that "Something" in their very own way. Therefore, we get multiple definitions and have the chance to get thoroughly confued. The problem is particularly true in Hinduism. All other religions have only one founder. Nobody has followed the founder in other religions to discuss the uncovered subjects or provide the missing details. In Hinduism, we have so many realized souls that there are various sects even within Hinduism. 100 years ago, a Vaishnava did not eat food at the residence of Shaiva. This tells us that we all fight not on the essence of religion but on the peripheral parts. That's pathetic. To tell you the frank, I am not sure how many of us understand what religion is? Forget about Gita, Upanishad etc. All we do is recite some well known verses while very few of us follow them with their heart and soul. That gap between mouth and hand helps to raise many questions in our mind. I like the questions because they give us all an opportunity to look within ourselves and help us open our closed eyes. However, a huge plus point of Hinduism is that it has constantly been clarified and perfected over time due to multiple preachers. Therefore, you are able to get more answers and various point of views in Hinduism. However, putting all these together requires special skills. "Realization of the Self" or understanding of Who I am or Seeing God is the true goal of this very life in Hinduism. IT DOES NOT TELL YOU TO JUST BELIEVE. TRUE HINDUISM DOESN"T CARE ABOUT UNNECESSARY, PERIPHERAL, SO-CALLED RELIGION. At the same time, Hinduism tells that you will never realize "SELF" without your own effort. You can't get self-realized by reading Sastras or others' experiences. However, you can get some direction and enthusiasm. Thus, only Hinduism challenges you seek out the TRUTH in this very life. This TRUTH seems to be in a different plane that our everyday plane. First of all we need to earn the rights to understand how to tune our mind for the other plane. It is extremely tough but can be done. Swami Brahmananda, brother disciple of Swami Vivekananda, once said that if you don't experience something after 3 years of sincere sadhana, come and slap me. Why don't you take up this challenge and practice for three years sincerely. Hinduism does not tell you to stay blind. Open up your eyes, struggle and achieve it. Katha Upanishad says - Arise, Awake and Stop not till the goal is reached. One word of caution - Focus on the true Religion not Peripheral. So, Wake up my friend. Work hard and then your questions will go away automatically. JUST BELIEVE the good people like Shri Ramakrishna, Shri Raman Maharshi, etc. At least you can say, you tried and it did not work. Remember, a deer never enters a sleeping lion's mouth... With Best Regards Another sleeping man trying to open up eyes ... jvardyaReply- To: Subject: Re: God - definitionTue, 04 Jul 2006 16:30:30 +0000 Om Shanti I want to thank you and appreciate your reply. This will be my last communication on this subject. I and you are discussing this subject on two different levels. You have total faith in the "BOOKS" and you accept that as the total Truth regardless of the statement. On the other hand I want convincing logic to accept some statements. Because what ALL is being stated in the Book does not meet my test of believability. For instance - cycling of souls. No one believes that except Hindus and there is no convincing proof or logic offered to support this theory. It is just a theory. The stories of Past Life experiences are really not scrutinized closely enough to determine believability. If you don't believe in Soul recycling, then past Karma has no relevancy. And a lot of conclusions become redundant or ir-relevant. The concept of Heaven and Hell has nothing to do with the concept of recycling. Heaven and Hell are After Life consequences. If you ponder on this subject a little more, you will realize that this concept was introduced in the scriptures so that Mankind or people in general act "nicely" and be civil to each other. Some thing like the Ten Commandments. Good guidelines for the masses but far from reality. All the guidelines and suggestions in the scriptures are good for the masses. But you have to be able to see the reality from "good" intention concepts. Om Shanti -------------- Original message from "Manjula Patel" <manjumaa: -------------- My very own, Pranam. I have tried to answer your questions in your email. I highly recommend reading chapter 4 and digesting it as it answers lot more than just discussed here. Thanks, always in service at Thy Lotus Feet. On 7/3/06, jvardya <jvardya wrote: Om Shanti. 1. It is very easy and convenient to say that what we are experiencing today is the result of past "Karma" . How, why ? Just because a Swamiji / book says so does not make it so. As far as I can see there is no link to the past. None has been established. All a conjecture. Past Karma then becomes an easy, catch all, explanation for whatever is happening to a person. Just an "escapism". Answer: I always thought (at least for myself) that it has been always easy to point finger at others than accepting or taking responsibilities of my action when something goes wrong and taking all credits if something goes well :-) If that is not true for someone, my humble pranams to that being - he/she is already in the list of being a saint. Lord said in Gitaji (Chapter 4:Slokas 1-5) that you and I have passed through many births, I remember them but you don't... Our saints & sages have been the greatest scientists and they have studied for ages and whatever they discovered have came out as our scriptures. In this very age, we have so many reported incidents of childern recollecting their past lives or those who meditate on a regular basis recall their past lives! Lord also said (18:68), 'idam te naatapaskaaya naabhaktaaya kadaachana...' One can not make anyone understand if the person has no willingness/inclination/desire/openness to understand. 2. Let us think about some of the other faiths in the world. According to Quran, once a person dies, his soul does not come back to earth. No recycling of souls. Who is right? Certainly, the treatment of Souls after death would be the same for Hindus as well as Muslims, I would think. Even Christians do not believe in recycling of souls. Hence, no carrying forward of Karma to the next life. Answer: I have not read The Quran so I can't speak what this Holy Book has to say but they do have concepts of 'jannata' and 'jahannum' - heaven & hell...!!! So...? In The Bible there is a mention of returning back of John the Baptist. There is also no recycling of soul in the Sanaatan Dharma or so called 'Hinduism' as mentioned in Gitaji (4:9-10) - 'janma karma cha me divyam... vitaraagabhayakrodhaa...' 3. The decisions you make today certainly affects the outcome - short term. Within this life span and is measurable/record-able. Your physical/mental capabilities certainly determine how successful, (needs definition?), you are in life and how much capacity you have for happiness. Answer: 'The decisions you make...', just like that the decisions (desires) you made (had) in past lives affect your present life too & they can be short term as well as long term and yes they are also measurable/recordable - possible for those who have been meditating for long and have become knower of their past deeds. One who has reached equanimity is beyond success-failure, happiness-unhappiness/sadness/sorrowfulness - our scriptures have been calling this as living in 'Bliss'. 4. Gita is wonderful if you start in that faith. So is Quran. Both have a common denominator - a person is born into that particular faith. Have you evaluated the other faiths and then decided which is the best. There are contradictions between Gita, Quran and Bible. For instance, Quran says 'it is the duty of a Muslim to kill the infidels'. When this Muslim person dies, he goes to a special place (heaven) with Allah. Which one is right? Remember, there are a lot more Muslims than Hindus. Answer: Yes, faith is all what it takes and sure one can evaluate as many Faiths/Religions as they want and can take whatever they like out of it - both so called 'good' or 'evil', it is up to the individual and God reaches to all (4:11). I only know that all so called 'Faiths' lead to one TRUTH! Any realized saint from any religion will agree to it as they have no attachment to so called 'Faith/Religion'. I have known Muslims and Christians go to their places of worships with full faith in their religion and also have very strong faith in Vedanta so otherway around can be true too - Ramkrishna Paramhamsa followed many Faiths and proved that it all reached to the same conclusion! One can reach at the top of mountain from any side - north/south/east/west/north-east/north-west/etc..., circulating, straight or crooked way, slowly walking or running (according to their temprament and capacity) but eventually all will reach the Top - The Highest. There are stumbling blocks, hurdels, resistance and one may fall down and start all over again. My Baba says that all religions of the world are like petals of a flower and if you pluck any of these petals, the flower looses its beauty! So each and every Faith has its beauty, one needs clean eye to see it. 5. Intellectually, it helps if you concentrate on action (or Karma - prudent and fair) and not worry about the outcome, which is beyond your control anyway. A very practical approach to life. But when you loose the "I", you would also loose people like Mittal Steel, Infosys, etc. They are the risk takers and they are trying to satisfy their ego or "I". A very important part of the community for economic prosperity. In Sanatan Dharma / Hindu scriptures are full of examples where entereprenures had contributed in community for economic prosperity and have been detached - they were kings, ministers, teachers, businessmen, sweepers, farmers, etc. (4:13-15) - they all have given their fair shares for the community growth and they were far far away from 'I'. If one has desire to remain attached to certain people, they have not left 'I' even though they think they have. The so called big/famous/prosperous people with name-fame associated with them will go to this pure hearted person who has left 'I' not the otherway around!!! When Alexander attacked India he wanted to take a True Saint with him but failed...! To believe something either we have to trust other's words (our saints/sages/scriptures/guru) who have rediscovered themselves or if we don't trust them then we should have courage to experiment ourselves following the exact steps/methods recommended by them and come to a conclusion. Yoga (karma, gyaan, bhakti, whatever...) & meditations are not someones imaginary creation. It has been practiced for ages and same conclusion has been reached by all that there is One & ONLY One Truth exist! No intelligence is needed in performing experiment as someone has already figured it out - just like H2O, i.e., when 2 proportion of hydrogen is mixed with oxygen, it produces water - now dummy or intelligent one performs this experiment they both would end up concluding the same!!!!! It is up to us to put the teachings of our Rishis in practice with the right kind of understanding. humble regards. Om Shanti. -------------- Original message from "Manjula Patel" < manjumaa: -------------- Loving Divine, Pranam. Neither Lord in Gitaji nor Swamiji Maharaj nor any other saints and sages have ever requested any family man/woman to leave their family, not to earn and provide material things to survive or do their duties...!!! We interpret it this way only because we are very much situated in or attached to the matter, World, Prakriti, or in that which is always moving. Please read and digest Chapter 3 of Gitaji. No one can ever remain without action - physical or mental (3:4) - breathing is also an action. Lord Himself is guiding Arjun to do his duty and fight. So our misunderstanding lies in our ignorance only! Our ego and play of our mind (Maya) create such ignorance due to which we remain far away from God. Even Lord said in Gitaji, 'manushyanaam sahastreshu...(7:3)' that only rare one attains ME and it is all due to this ignorance. Let's cross our ego - 'ahamtaa' and focus on who is behind this 'I' or allowing us to say 'I am..' / 'me...' / 'my..' or 'mine...' We say these things like - this is my house or my wife or my family. We also say my mind is tired or my intellect is not working or my memory is blocked or my ego came in between. We also say things like 'why me?' or 'I tried everything but the result is adverse and unexpected' or 'I don't know what caused it?' So these 3 sets of questions or sentences focus on gross, astral or causal aspect of us - so for most of us this 'I' is strongly associated with these 3 aspects of our life (Prakriti, ego, mind, intelluct & memory, & ignorance) but there is another 'I' - 'The Self' that is within & outside us and is beyond these 3 aspects and Swamiji Maharaj or other siants and sages point us towards IT when they talk about 'vairaagya'. When we are situated in that higher 'I' or 'The Self', we know that ALL is DONE by IT and not by usual 'I, me, my, or mine...' Being aware of the actual DOER of our actions brings detachment t o it - job is done, money is earned, family is taken care of, all required duties are performed but not by the usual 'I/me/my/mine...' rather this superior Self who leads (makes it possible) us to do it all and thus detachment or egolessness develops. So if you read those 3 sets of questions or comments again and ask yourself 'WHO is it behind this 'I' that knows about all activities of this lower 'I'; who is that Shaakshi; you might be able to see the point that Swamiji Maharaj is making. You may agree to call IT as The God like most of us or give IT a name that suits your temprament, it doesn't matter!!! :-) Without breath where is this so called 'I/me or mine...? Who is breathing within you? Who is keeping you alive? In past we had some good discussion to understand this lower 'I' and higher 'Self' so would like to point you to few of the examples listed in those emails that have been archieved at /. Please read responses # 99, 101, 110, 116, 125, 127, 136, 139, 142, 145, 152, 164, 166, & 168 (I don't know exactly which email will fit the best - they all have something to help enhance our understanding). The areas of Prakriti that we human beings are able to know and define, we use some name to identify those forms and to show superiority of that aspect we have been calling them God - we have no control over it and you know..., surprisingly enough nothing falls beyond earth (mater), water, fire (light), air, & vacuum (our body is made up of these 5 elements and so is the rest of material creation) + antahkaran (ego, memory, mind & intellect) so whatever that is beyond these elements our Saints and Sages have been calling IT God / Brahman / Self. Historically, they all knew this aspect of us called 'The God - one & only one, all pervading, all knowing, deathless, birthless, still, bliss, live (Chetan), detached, perfect, etc.' So called god/lord of earth, water, fire, air, space/vacuum, mind, ego, intellect, etc. are categorized into demi gods (prayers to them also reach The God). 'The God' is beyond everything and that's what we are discussing here - keeping teachings of Gitaji/Lord Krishna as our medium. Swamiji Maharaj has been a great help in understanding and interpreting Gitaji for us and how to realize The God or Self. No one is born simply by the act of others, we are brought on this earth ONLY because of OUR OWN action (karma)!!! Based on our karma we were attracted to our mother's womb. Because of her karma she was able to sustain us! So due to our mutual karma, we are born in the family we are born with the siblings and relatives we have!!! So if we have attitude to blame others for our existence, please let us correct it first. We are put in a right place, right time, amongst right people every moment so that we evolve. Hope this helps... Love always... At Thy Divine Feet On 7/1/06, jvardya < jvardya wrote: Om Shanti. I have been reading the correspondence from you and the Readers. Some of the messages are esoteric and difficult to relate to in terms of practical every day life. We all have to earn a living and provide for material things for the family. Basic survival things like housing, food , resources for education, etc. There is an enormous satisfaction in achieving goals such as financial, career, etc. We can not just renounce the world of materialism and give up all things and become totally detached. And for what? To become totally passive. That brings me to ask the basic question - HOW DO YOU DEFINE GOD ? Not his attributes but the basic definition. Is God embodiment of all that we do not know? Historically, that is the definition. From the old times, if we did not understand Fire or lightning etc., we lumped that phenomenon as God of Fire, etc.. And why is it important to relate to God in everyday life. I can be just as happy or happier without recognition of God. I thought that was the goal in life - to be happy and make others happy with your behavior. We did not come in to Life with our own will but by the action of others. So you try to make the best of it. Thank you. Suresh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Loving Divine, My very Own, Pranam. My love and only love has been pouring out in my email. If one truly understands what I am up to, one would not see anything but love!!! Please show/read my emails to Pujniya Paramacharya with my humble prostration at His Holy Feet. If He says there is no love in them I will shut-up :-) If a child is sick and mother has to give extremely bitter medicine to cure her child and the child doesn't like it at all (he throws his feet in air, shouts, uses abusive language towards her mother for giving him the bitter medicine) but mother forces it into his mouth and the child gets better - would you say the mother is cruel, has no love? OR would you say the mother has extreme love in taking care of her child? My Baba says that always be positive - see good, do good. We all have been put together in this 'Vishva Vidyaalaya' just to evolve... Series of questions were put together for a purpose. You and I are saying the same thing about no need to read any scriptures. Ramkrishna Paramhamsa, Kabir, Meera did not read any of the scriptures. Please re-read my email to remove misinterpretation. My challenge is only for one to remained awakened in studying their own self :-) Sureshbaba, this is for you: I know you are as dear to me as anything else... You are as pure as any of God's creation... You are as Divine as Divinity Himself... The Soul is never recycled in reality, it is how we interpret the language! Let me tell you something... The space is all pervading, is it not? Where space is not? SPACE just IS. Space is within, it is outside, it is above, it is below, it is under, it is just there whether you want it or not, whether you like it or not, whether you know about it or not, it just IS. You are within it forever - you can never be out, never be devoid of. You can't cut, hurt, burn the space (Moderater, please forgive me for talking without listing the Gita sloka reference numbers...). You accept the existence of space or not, it just IS. If you dig a whole on ground, can you ever say the space was not there? Can you say the same space is not there when the earth is dug out? Now if I build a house or create a garden, it just doesn't matter to the space!!! So now what would you call this? Can I really say that I am recycling the space? We use the language that I reused the space but can one really reuse the space? You can never recycle the space because the space just IS. All your actions are performed within space, however much you desire but can one ever recycle the space - how can you? The whole creation starts in space, sustained in space and dissolves in space. If you see it from the essence point of view - there is no past or future for the SPACE because it just IS. The Space is just a 'mook shakshi' - silent witness of everything that happens thus knower of all...!!! Space can't do anything by itself but one can do any and everything because of space. Am I making any sense what so ever? Baba, please let me know. If yes, just like that The Soul IS, the Consciousness IS, the God IS, the Nothingness IS, the Shunya IS, the Awareness IS, the Energy IS. IT can never be recycled but according to our desires and deeds they become a house or garden or hole in the ground or remain the ground itself... Can we truly say the Space has past or future? The Space is the current, present, this very moment and so is Consciousness. It is not important to know how many moments are in life rather understanding how much life is in each moment - view the entire shrusti - how much life is in this very moment... and this existence is because of this Super Consciousness, the Energy that is all pervading. Every breath is a life - we live as we breath and we die when we exhale! Just like the Space doesn't desire, The Soul is desireless too but in presence of IT our ego desires and get attached to. For The Soul there is no past or future life. We are the creator, whatever we desire, has equal potential to materialize including body (body is just a matter). Whether it is a current past, past life's or present life's desires, they just take the form of our mind, intellect, ego and whatever is stored in that memory results into action - in the same Space / Consciousness. The consciousness has no past or future - the body comes and goes like any other material object that we had desired. From essence point of view the object is nothing but a congregation of actions and actions are nothing but summation of thoughts and thoughts are nothing but a form of desire. Everything springs from a desire!!! Just like a desire results into a material object, a desire can result into a physical body too! Consciously or unconsciously we desire certain body and The All Pervading Energy / Consciousness knows it and gives it a material form. Observe your past desires and watch the trend of how they were being materialized - from the essence perspective only. I am sorry I have nothing more to say or contribute on this subject (actually on any if one understand what has been just said in this email) but I really really hope you understand what I am trying to say. To remain in that state of nothingness, consciousness, awareness and performing your actions is vairaagya - just like in the presence of space everything takes place and the space never is attached to anything, the Soul within is never actually attached to anything - body can come and go. When the actions are performed - worldly, spiritually, doesn't matter, in this conscious state, they are the actions of God and not mine. True 'surrender'. If I am not making any sense right now, please don't give up, keep on contemplating until it clicks... Read and re-read, keeping on reading and thinking until it happens. That is what Lord is saying in Gitaji sloka 12:8 - who fixes his attention on me can attain me. Please do not stop - stagnant water stinks, only flowing water is of some help! Arjun was able to realize his true Self only because he kept on asking questions. There are 18 chapters in Gitaji. In 11th chapter he had Vishwaroop darshana. Still the dialog between Shri Krishna & him continued up to 18th chapter - only then he was able to see his true self. Lord, let those who benefit from this email, benefit them all with Thy grace... Love always, at Thy so Loving Feet from where love and only love flows On 7/5/06, Gopi Krishna Paritala <paritalagopikrishna wrote: My Dear Friend, Love and Love alone ... Now, I can understand that you are in a fighting mood. I thought not to respond, but I should let you know what Paramacharya Sri Chandrasekhara Saraswati of Kanchi Kamakoti Pitham said and I quote " In all that you do, let love be the sole motive. Any deed must be with reference to another. Action implies the acted-upon as much as the agent. Let action be out of love. I am not here referring to the Gandhian gospel of ahimsa. There may be situations which demand violent action. Punishment, for instance, may be necessary. Even wars may have to be waged. But whatever be the nature of the action, the agent must act out of love. Passions such as desire and hatred, anger and malice must be totally eschewed. If love becomes the guiding principle of all deeds, then most of the ills of the world will vanish " . unquote. I sincerely try to follow the above. Now coming back to your series of questions, I must say that I do not have to read all the scriptures to know the Reality. Suffice to say, our mind is our best friend and the worst enemy. But, for most of the questions that you raised, I am honest in my expressions, that I have answers. And, I am very confident in saying that HE is guiding my every single step. I am putting in my best to learn whatever has been taught by HIM. I have no hesitation and shame in admitting to what I do not know. One does not need to dip the whole hand in a boiling rice pot to see whether the rice has been cooked full or not, taking out one grain to test it is sufficient. I am sure, you got the answer. I have full faith in myself, in my religion, in the scriptures, in the Guru and in God. What else do I require to follow the right path? I am ready to answer any of your questions at personal level, as we should not use this forum to drag on this discussion further. I hope you understand and appreciate my feelings. Love and May God Bless You. P. Gopi Krishna On 7/5/06, Manjula Patel <manjumaa > wrote: Loving Divine, Pranam. I have a request, please provide honest answers to yourself (we don't need to hear any of it because your honesty to yourself will help you only :-)) How many scriptures have you read? As mentioned in the email you don't have any faith in so called 'BOOK' but you mentioned about ALL that is written in them - makes us belive you have read them all - Bagawada Gita (there are other Gitas too written by other Sages!), Vedas-Upanishads, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Bhaktisutras, Aatmabodh, Tatvabodh, Torah, Quran, Bible, Shri Gurugranthsaheb, etc. (and you really could not find anything that can really help you transform? Entire life can be spent just sticking to one teaching, e.g., being honest - not with others but your very own self, and nothing else would have needed to accept from any of the so called 'BOOK'.) How many did you truly understand? How much effort did you put in truly understanding them before concluding that they are not for you to trust? Were you discussing the subject for the sake of discussion because you have merely heard those sentences from somebody else too and found them very convenient to believe (without doing much investigation) usually that is the easy route people take to hide their weaknesses (I am not saying necessarily that you are doing it, I am mentioning the usual route...) Did you ever tried honestly to follow any of the teachings of any of the scriptures? Did any of it transformed your life? If not did you search your heart that where were you lacking? During this transformation did you run into any difficulties? If yes, did you take the help of same scripture to find out an answer OR did you humbly request any wise/holyman/so called Swamiji for assistance? If yes, were you rejected by any of them saying that they can't guide you based on what our scriptures have to say? If yes, did that scripture/guru provided you guidance? If I say I know my past lives would you believe it? If I tell you my experience of yoga-meditation matches with what is written in the scriptures, would you ever believe it? If I tell you I accepted the challenge to experiment myself (why trust anybody?) and honestly tried to follow what my Baba/Guru had to say and He was kind enough to help me see what I needed to see in the scriptures, would you believe it? If I tell you that you don't need any book or any guru to know your True Faith, would you believe it? If I tell you that the Soul is NEVER recycled, it is just a mind game / Maya, would you believe it? Do you really trust yourself? Do you really want to transform? Do you really trust any Faith? Do you really trust anybody? How much do you know about yourself? Do you really know anything at all? WHO are YOU? Again, no need to answer any of it to anybody, just to yourself only ;-) That is the beauty of Maya :-), we don't truly trust anybody but our own self, i.e., 'I' - the ego aspect, and we like to play the game with our own self (I called them cheating games - if you become aware of how your mind and ego plays with you, you would understand what I am saying... - be a SHAAKSHI first and you will know it all :-)). We think we have full faith in ourselves, our strength, our capacity, etc. and that's why it is extremely difficult to completely 'surrender' to God. As Lord said in Gitaji that you are your friend and you are your enemy. However many proofs are presented to however many people by however many Saints & Sages, until we do it ourselves no proof is good enough!!!!!!!!!!!!! One would believe what experiences they have or how much they want to expand them. Most of us don't want to learn from others mistakes (because we think I am not that dumm...) but end up making the same mistakes and learn from it when Prakriti decides to teach the lesson harder way! Most of us don't want to wake-up until forced to do so. Bagavad Gita is not a book of external fight that took place in Kurukshetra, it is a book of fight that continuously happens within us between our lower self and higher self, between our mind and intellect, between our good habits and bad/evil/animalistic tendencies, between our own bondage & effort to liberate. It is a great book of psychology. Similarly other Holy Scriptures from other Faith represents the same thing but who truly takes interest in looking within while reading them? We all are so tightly trapped by Mahamaya, we don't have time to look within; no time to contemplate, no time to take deep dive!!! We read them just for the sake of reading - why bother implementing anything? Who is true Muslim? Do you even know the meaning of Muslim? What does it mean to kill infidels? We search answers outside but they are related to our inner being. Just like we have Kauravs (our bad tendencies/habits) to be killed, we have infidels to kill. We consider all external glitter as Gold and miss out on the true Diamond within!!! Those who searches within are the recipient... After asking tons of questions to Krishna (Supreme Soul), Arjun (Lower Self) finally said that now I know my true self, I surrender, I will do whatever you would ask me to do (18:73 - nashto moha smutir...) Whether there is recycling of soul or not, whether there is karma theory or not - NONE matters IF WE ARE NOT WILLING TO TRANSFORM OURSELVES!!! I say there is no recycling of soul, I completely AGREE with YOU because it is all mind game, so now I say let's discover 'who am I?' in this very life, in this very moment, just NOW. To study our own self no BOOK or SWAMI or GURU is needed, only what is needed is to look within, watch our own thoughts - the mind game, watch our own ego, watch how convincing they become in making us slip from our goal/effort - CAN WE NOT DO THAT PLEASE????? Be honest to our own self? Be watchful of our own self? Enjoy being our own self? My love forever, at Thy Lotus Feet from where the energy flows to strengthen our Faith in WHO TRULY WE ARE On 7/4/06, jvardya < jvardya wrote: Om Shanti I want to thank you and appreciate your reply. This will be my last communication on this subject. I and you are discussing this subject on two different levels. You have total faith in the " BOOKS " and you accept that as the total Truth regardless of the statement. On the other hand I want convincing logic to accept some statements. Because what ALL is being stated in the Book does not meet my test of believability. For instance - cycling of souls. No one believes that except Hindus and there is no convincing proof or logic offered to support this theory. It is just a theory. The stories of Past Life experiences are really not scrutinized closely enough to determine believability. If you don't believe in Soul recycling, then past Karma has no relevancy. And a lot of conclusions become redundant or ir-relevant. The concept of Heaven and Hell has nothing to do with the concept of recycling. Heaven and Hell are After Life consequences. If you ponder on this subject a little more, you will realize that this concept was introduced in the scriptures so that Mankind or people in general act " nicely " and be civil to each other. Some thing like the Ten Commandments. Good guidelines for the masses but far from reality. All the guidelines and suggestions in the scriptures are good for the masses. But you have to be able to see the reality from " good " intention concepts. Om Shanti -------------- Original message from " Manjula Patel " < manjumaa: -------------- My very own, Pranam. I have tried to answer your questions in your email. I highly recommend reading chapter 4 and digesting it as it answers lot more than just discussed here. Thanks, always in service at Thy Lotus Feet. On 7/3/06, jvardya < jvardya wrote: Om Shanti. 1. It is very easy and convenient to say that what we are experiencing today is the result of past " Karma " . How, why ? Just because a Swamiji / book says so does not make it so. As far as I can see there is no link to the past. None has been established. All a conjecture. Past Karma then becomes an easy, catch all, explanation for whatever is happening to a person. Just an " escapism " . Answer: I always thought (at least for myself) that it has been always easy to point finger at others than accepting or taking responsibilities of my action when something goes wrong and taking all credits if something goes well :-) If that is not true for someone, my humble pranams to that being - he/she is already in the list of being a saint. Lord said in Gitaji (Chapter 4:Slokas 1-5) that you and I have passed through many births, I remember them but you don't... Our saints & sages have been the greatest scientists and they have studied for ages and whatever they discovered have came out as our scriptures. In this very age, we have so many reported incidents of childern recollecting their past lives or those who meditate on a regular basis recall their past lives! Lord also said (18:68), 'idam te naatapaskaaya naabhaktaaya kadaachana...' One can not make anyone understand if the person has no willingness/inclination/desire/openness to understand. 2. Let us think about some of the other faiths in the world. According to Quran, once a person dies, his soul does not come back to earth. No recycling of souls. Who is right? Certainly, the treatment of Souls after death would be the same for Hindus as well as Muslims, I would think. Even Christians do not believe in recycling of souls. Hence, no carrying forward of Karma to the next life. Answer: I have not read The Quran so I can't speak what this Holy Book has to say but they do have concepts of 'jannata' and 'jahannum' - heaven & hell...!!! So...? In The Bible there is a mention of returning back of John the Baptist. There is also no recycling of soul in the Sanaatan Dharma or so called 'Hinduism' as mentioned in Gitaji (4:9-10) - 'janma karma cha me divyam... vitaraagabhayakrodhaa...' 3. The decisions you make today certainly affects the outcome - short term. Within this life span and is measurable/record-able. Your physical/mental capabilities certainly determine how successful, (needs definition?), you are in life and how much capacity you have for happiness. Answer: 'The decisions you make...', just like that the decisions (desires) you made (had) in past lives affect your present life too & they can be short term as well as long term and yes they are also measurable/recordable - possible for those who have been meditating for long and have become knower of their past deeds. One who has reached equanimity is beyond success-failure, happiness-unhappiness/sadness/sorrowfulness - our scriptures have been calling this as living in 'Bliss'. 4. Gita is wonderful if you start in that faith. So is Quran. Both have a common denominator - a person is born into that particular faith. Have you evaluated the other faiths and then decided which is the best. There are contradictions between Gita, Quran and Bible. For instance, Quran says 'it is the duty of a Muslim to kill the infidels'. When this Muslim person dies, he goes to a special place (heaven) with Allah. Which one is right? Remember, there are a lot more Muslims than Hindus. Answer: Yes, faith is all what it takes and sure one can evaluate as many Faiths/Religions as they want and can take whatever they like out of it - both so called 'good' or 'evil', it is up to the individual and God reaches to all (4:11). I only know that all so called 'Faiths' lead to one TRUTH! Any realized saint from any religion will agree to it as they have no attachment to so called 'Faith/Religion'. I have known Muslims and Christians go to their places of worships with full faith in their religion and also have very strong faith in Vedanta so otherway around can be true too - Ramkrishna Paramhamsa followed many Faiths and proved that it all reached to the same conclusion! One can reach at the top of mountain from any side - north/south/east/west/north-east/north-west/etc..., circulating, straight or crooked way, slowly walking or running (according to their temprament and capacity) but eventually all will reach the Top - The Highest. There are stumbling blocks, hurdels, resistance and one may fall down and start all over again. My Baba says that all religions of the world are like petals of a flower and if you pluck any of these petals, the flower looses its beauty! So each and every Faith has its beauty, one needs clean eye to see it. 5. Intellectually, it helps if you concentrate on action (or Karma - prudent and fair) and not worry about the outcome, which is beyond your control anyway. A very practical approach to life. But when you loose the " I " , you would also loose people like Mittal Steel, Infosys, etc. They are the risk takers and they are trying to satisfy their ego or " I " . A very important part of the community for economic prosperity. In Sanatan Dharma / Hindu scriptures are full of examples where entereprenures had contributed in community for economic prosperity and have been detached - they were kings, ministers, teachers, businessmen, sweepers, farmers, etc. (4:13-15) - they all have given their fair shares for the community growth and they were far far away from 'I'. If one has desire to remain attached to certain people, they have not left 'I' even though they think they have. The so called big/famous/prosperous people with name-fame associated with them will go to this pure hearted person who has left 'I' not the otherway around!!! When Alexander attacked India he wanted to take a True Saint with him but failed...! To believe something either we have to trust other's words (our saints/sages/scriptures/guru) who have rediscovered themselves or if we don't trust them then we should have courage to experiment ourselves following the exact steps/methods recommended by them and come to a conclusion. Yoga (karma, gyaan, bhakti, whatever...) & meditations are not someones imaginary creation. It has been practiced for ages and same conclusion has been reached by all that there is One & ONLY One Truth exist! No intelligence is needed in performing experiment as someone has already figured it out - just like H2O, i.e., when 2 proportion of hydrogen is mixed with oxygen, it produces water - now dummy or intelligent one performs this experiment they both would end up concluding the same!!!!! It is up to us to put the teachings of our Rishis in practice with the right kind of understanding. humble regards. Om Shanti. -------------- Original message from " Manjula Patel " < manjumaa: -------------- Loving Divine, Pranam. Neither Lord in Gitaji nor Swamiji Maharaj nor any other saints and sages have ever requested any family man/woman to leave their family, not to earn and provide material things to survive or do their duties...!!! We interpret it this way only because we are very much situated in or attached to the matter, World, Prakriti, or in that which is always moving. Please read and digest Chapter 3 of Gitaji. No one can ever remain without action - physical or mental (3:4) - breathing is also an action. Lord Himself is guiding Arjun to do his duty and fight. So our misunderstanding lies in our ignorance only! Our ego and play of our mind (Maya) create such ignorance due to which we remain far away from God. Even Lord said in Gitaji, 'manushyanaam sahastreshu...(7:3)' that only rare one attains ME and it is all due to this ignorance. Let's cross our ego - 'ahamtaa' and focus on who is behind this 'I' or allowing us to say 'I am..' / 'me...' / 'my..' or 'mine...' We say these things like - this is my house or my wife or my family. We also say my mind is tired or my intellect is not working or my memory is blocked or my ego came in between. We also say things like 'why me?' or 'I tried everything but the result is adverse and unexpected' or 'I don't know what caused it?' So these 3 sets of questions or sentences focus on gross, astral or causal aspect of us - so for most of us this 'I' is strongly associated with these 3 aspects of our life (Prakriti, ego, mind, intelluct & memory, & ignorance) but there is another 'I' - 'The Self' that is within & outside us and is beyond these 3 aspects and Swamiji Maharaj or other siants and sages point us towards IT when they talk about 'vairaagya'. When we are situated in that higher 'I' or 'The Self', we know that ALL is DONE by IT and not by usual 'I, me, my, or mine...' Being aware of the actual DOER of our actions brings detachment t o it - job is done, money is earned, family is taken care of, all required duties are performed but not by the usual 'I/me/my/mine...' rather this superior Self who leads (makes it possible) us to do it all and thus detachment or egolessness develops. So if you read those 3 sets of questions or comments again and ask yourself 'WHO is it behind this 'I' that knows about all activities of this lower 'I'; who is that Shaakshi; you might be able to see the point that Swamiji Maharaj is making. You may agree to call IT as The God like most of us or give IT a name that suits your temprament, it doesn't matter!!! :-) Without breath where is this so called 'I/me or mine...? Who is breathing within you? Who is keeping you alive? In past we had some good discussion to understand this lower 'I' and higher 'Self' so would like to point you to few of the examples listed in those emails that have been archieved at /. Please read responses # 99, 101, 110, 116, 125, 127, 136, 139, 142, 145, 152, 164, 166, & 168 (I don't know exactly which email will fit the best - they all have something to help enhance our understanding). The areas of Prakriti that we human beings are able to know and define, we use some name to identify those forms and to show superiority of that aspect we have been calling them God - we have no control over it and you know..., surprisingly enough nothing falls beyond earth (mater), water, fire (light), air, & vacuum (our body is made up of these 5 elements and so is the rest of material creation) + antahkaran (ego, memory, mind & intellect) so whatever that is beyond these elements our Saints and Sages have been calling IT God / Brahman / Self. Historically, they all knew this aspect of us called 'The God - one & only one, all pervading, all knowing, deathless, birthless, still, bliss, live (Chetan), detached, perfect, etc.' So called god/lord of earth, water, fire, air, space/vacuum, mind, ego, intellect, etc. are categorized into demi gods (prayers to them also reach The God). 'The God' is beyond everything and that's what we are discussing here - keeping teachings of Gitaji/Lord Krishna as our medium. Swamiji Maharaj has been a great help in understanding and interpreting Gitaji for us and how to realize The God or Self. No one is born simply by the act of others, we are brought on this earth ONLY because of OUR OWN action (karma)!!! Based on our karma we were attracted to our mother's womb. Because of her karma she was able to sustain us! So due to our mutual karma, we are born in the family we are born with the siblings and relatives we have!!! So if we have attitude to blame others for our existence, please let us correct it first. We are put in a right place, right time, amongst right people every moment so that we evolve. Hope this helps... Love always... At Thy Divine Feet On 7/1/06, jvardya < jvardya wrote: Om Shanti. I have been reading the correspondence from you and the Readers. Some of the messages are esoteric and difficult to relate to in terms of practical every day life. We all have to earn a living and provide for material things for the family. Basic survival things like housing, food , resources for education, etc. There is an enormous satisfaction in achieving goals such as financial, career, etc. We can not just renounce the world of materialism and give up all things and become totally detached. And for what? To become totally passive. That brings me to ask the basic question - HOW DO YOU DEFINE GOD ? Not his attributes but the basic definition. Is God embodiment of all that we do not know? Historically, that is the definition. From the old times, if we did not understand Fire or lightning etc., we lumped that phenomenon as God of Fire, etc.. And why is it important to relate to God in everyday life. I can be just as happy or happier without recognition of God. I thought that was the goal in life - to be happy and make others happy with your behavior. We did not come in to Life with our own will but by the action of others. So you try to make the best of it. Thank you. Suresh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.