Fwd: Let's expand our horizon w/Gitaji - how 2 b dettached: duty & knowledge? (5 of 8 emails)

September 14, 2006

Divine All,

Pranam.

I have taken liberty to copy Shaileshji' recent message (Success in Human Life) into my original email (Let's expand our horizon w/Gitaji - how 2 b detached: duty & knowledge? (5 of 8 emails) ) as it fits better here. My comments are in Red.

I know Moderatorji has not released the original email but I think it's time now... Thanks.

My very basic-fundamental question is what is duty or dharma? Let's start with that to gear our discussion towards performing our duty with love and compassion but without attachment.

humble regards,

always at Thy Divine Feet

---------- Forwarded message ----------Manjula Patel <

manjumaaAug 27, 2006 1:00 AM Let's expand our horizon w/Gitaji - how 2 b dettached: duty & knowledge? (5 of 8 emails) <

>Loving Divine,

Pranam.

We have very good discussions going on with various questions asked in this group. Thanks to all for their participation and the Moderator for facilitation.

We all say and agree that we need to be detached but the key concern is 'HOW?', isn't it? To address various topics of detachment I have divided them into 8 emails so we can discuss them individually. I have also tried to provide Gita sloka or chapter or a term/word used that have addressed them but Gitaji has lot more to offer...!!! I am a strong believer that the RIGHT UNDERSTANDING is the ONLY way that can lead us to true and deeper level of detachment. So let's expand our horizon together with Gitaji and supportive examples where applicable. Let's pour out our understanding and experiences on how to be truly detached with love & compassion - the true application of Gitaji in our life.

Lord talks about 'dharma' quite a few places like Chapter 1, 2, 4, 7, etc. and about knowledge in Chapter 4, 5, 13, 18, etc.

(Please note: provide related Gita Sloka 1st, support it with examples from other scriptures if needed)

Please discuss...

1) What is duty (dharma)?

Dharma means many things and therefore the best thing is to determine in what context this word is used for. For example, dharma means righteousness, moral merits, ethical conduct, good work, religion, sacrifice, customary observance of cast (kshatriya dharma, Vaishya dharma, etc.), law-nyaaya (like how we call Yudhisthir to be dharmaraaj), observing prescribed duty ( maatrudharma, pitrudharma, putra/putridharma, pati-patnidharma, rajadharma, prajadharma, etc.), essential quality-characteristic-attribute (like heat is the dharma of agni). Dha

rma means that which upholds or it means the law of being, i.e., atma (without atma within us we are nothing and the only link we have with our atma is our breath!)

Also before we start I want to make another point, the one who follows dharma is called dharmaatmaa, do you agree? So if we do our worldly duties-kartavya as we perceive it to be the dharma towards our family, friend, nation, etc. do you think we become dharmaatmaa? Let's also remain focus on this aspect too because Lord asks Arjun at one time to become a true yogi.

What Shaileshji has described in the 1st paragraph of his email, Lord defines that energy to be the Raajsik in nature (18:34). Even though we use the term dharma and kartavya interchangeably sometimes, Lord clearly separates them in BG 18:30-32. So now after removing all the duty - kartavya part from dharma, can someone tell me what is dharma? In my opinion, Lord simply points us to the spiritual (not religious as people have different definitions of religion) aspect of it and that's what Swamiji Maharaj is indicating in his message.

Swamiji Maharaj is not talking about Saatvik, Raajsik or Taamsik definitions, rather, his attempt is to make us aware of that energy which is inherant within all of us which is beyond even saatvik one!!! As Baba says that you can give something to others, including your family, ONLY when you possess that something. If you don't have love within you, you will never be able to give love to anybody! If you don't have money with you, you can never lend it to anybody! If you yourself don't perceive the divinity within you, you can never make your family members understand it! To change the world, we have to change ourselves first. Before looking outside, it is wise to look within us first and that is definitely not a selfish attitude rather it is highly righteous (dharmic) one. So even though it seems very selfish to have the goal of 'self realization', it is definitely not the selfish one and carries more than 100% return on investment for the family, society and universe as a whole. That's why we value the true guru, our ancient sages for their wisdom and documenting it in the scriptures, that's our inheritance (for those who attempts to understand and apply it) - no not the happiness but the bliss, the true love, the freedom ...!!! The true guru/saint/sage/rishi is such a person who just does not convert iron into gold but he produces more philosopher's stone who can do the same for the society...

Am I making any sense what so ever?

So let's see what is duty or dharma? Arjun says in BG 2:7 that I am 'dharmasammudhachetaah...' What does he really meant by that? He seeks refuge at Lord's feet requesting to educate him on this subject as he considers him to be Lord's disciple.

BG 2:38, Lord said that forget about victory-defeat, gain-loss and pleasure-pain, in other words, lift yourself above (be in a state that upholds!) all of these and engage yourself in the battle. Also in BG 2:40 He talks about Karma Yoga - the starting of selfless efforts (karma), no effort is wasted rather this dharma protects from the fear. What dharma is Lord talking here? What fear is He referring to? (see BG 9:3 below)

In BG 4:7 Lord talks about him being born when the destruction of dharma-rituousness takes place or the rise in adharma takes place. He also continues in 4:8 that to lift-up or liberate saadhu purush, to destroy those who are engaged in the sinful act & to establish dharama I am born. So which dharma Lord is talking here?

BG 7:11, He is saying in every being (bhuta), I am the kaamna rahit strength (that is devoid of passion & attachment) and lawful desire (shashtrokta-according to dharma-kaam). So what is this dharma?

BG 9:1/2, Lord talks about, 'jyaan vijyaansahitam...', i.e., the supreme knowledge or the knowledge of the supreme, which is considered to be 'rajavidya, raajguhyam, absolutely pure...' He calls acquisition of this knowledge dharmayukta. BG 9:3 then He continues saying that those who are faithless in this dharma do not reach me but return back to the mortal world. So what is true dharma?

Finally Lord says in BG 14:27 that I am the immortal and imperishable Brahman, the eternal dharma and the source of the absolute/uninterrupted happiness/joy/bliss. So now tell me what is dharama?

(to be continued... Plz share your thoughts, understanding, experience to expand our horizon. Thanks.)

2) Is our dharma differ towards our family (father, mother, children, friends, relatives), society (neighbour, town, country), world (other nations, environment)?

Acharya, Shailesh (S.) <

ashailesSep 14, 2006 2:53 AM FW: [sadhaka] Success in Human Life ( 13.9.06)

Every thing what we do for ourselves or for family will always be with selfish motive, to see

them happy and love from them.

If the work

for family is considered

as selfish motive

efforts then

I think the " Human life success " objective of life could be more selfish attitude. In order to prove own life successful

I don't think we should

avoid our family objectives. A person can enjoy his life success even if

he

at the

end realize

that he was able to do

something out of

lot

and thus was able to see few cheerful faces at his hey days.

Nothing remain done could give ultimate success realization feeling but something done could also be a feeling that can give a satisfaction " Santhosh " .

Regards,

Shailesh Acharya

Finance Process & System Leadership Team - ADA

Ford Business Service Center - INDIA

Phone - 91-44-24556049

sadhaka [sadhaka ] On Behalf Of SadhakThursday, September 14, 2006 1:17 AM

Spiritual Group[sadhaka] Success in Human Life (13.9.06)

:Shree Hari:

Ashwin Krishna Sasthi, Vikram Samvat 2063, Budhvar

13th September, 2006, Wednesday

Human life is successful only when:

1) nothing remains to be done,

2) nothing remains to be known and

3) nothing remains to be acquired.

When will nothing remain to be done? When you work only for others. In this way when you do nothing for yourself, nothing will remain to be done. If you do things for yourself, the action can never be complete. The reason is that action has a beginning and an end, while you (swayam) remains the same. So something will remain to be done so long as you do for yourself. But nothing will remain to be done if you work only for others. So if you do nothing for you, nothing will remain to be done. So if you work for yourself and have affinity for the members of the family with a selfish motive, something will remain to be done for endless births. It can never be completed.

When will nothing remain to be known? When you know the Self, nothing will remain to be known.

When will nothing remain to be acquired? When you realize that nothing can be acquired by the body, senses, mind, intellect and ego for the Self, as the Self is the illuminator of them all.

If out of these three, any one condition is satisfied, the remaining two will be naturally satisfied.

You can attain the state of supreme peace and bliss in which nothing remains to be done, to be known and to be acquired.

Ram Ram

From " Ease of God Realization " by Swami Ramsukhdasji.

3) We are children of God, do we have any dharma towards ourselves?

4) If conflict arises between all these dharmas what takes precedence?

4) What is knowledge? Should we let go our duty in search of knowledge? If yes/no, why?

5) How can we remain detached while performing our duties?

6) Should our attachment for the search of true knowledge be entertained by us at all? What takes precedence - duty or knowledge?

Thanks in advance for your participation.

Love.

always at Thy Lotus Feet

September 17, 2006

Hari OM; OUr first duty is to love and respect our parents. walk in the path sathya. None can destroy the truth. Truth alone can take us to GOd. Hari OmManjula Patel <manjumaa wrote: Divine All, Pranam. I have taken liberty to copy Shaileshji' recent message (Success in Human Life) into my original email (Let's expand our horizon w/Gitaji - how 2 b detached: duty & knowledge? (5 of 8 emails) ) as it

fits better here. My comments are in Red. I know Moderatorji has not released the original email but I think it's time now... Thanks. My very basic-fundamental question is what is duty or dharma? Let's start with that to gear our discussion towards performing our duty with love and compassion but without attachment. humble regards, always at Thy Divine Feet ---------- Forwarded message ----------Manjula Patel < manjumaa >Aug 27, 2006 1:00 AM Let's expand our horizon w/Gitaji - how 2 b dettached: duty &

knowledge? (5 of 8 emails) < >Loving Divine, Pranam. We have very good discussions going on with various questions asked in this group. Thanks to all for their participation and the Moderator for facilitation. We all say and agree that we need to be detached but the key concern is 'HOW?', isn't it? To address various topics of detachment I have divided them into 8 emails so we can discuss them individually. I have also tried to provide Gita sloka or chapter or a term/word used that have addressed them but Gitaji has lot more to offer...!!! I am a strong believer that the RIGHT UNDERSTANDING is the ONLY way that can lead us to true and deeper level of detachment. So let's expand our

horizon together with Gitaji and supportive examples where applicable. Let's pour out our understanding and experiences on how to be truly detached with love & compassion - the true application of Gitaji in our life. Lord talks about 'dharma' quite a few places like Chapter 1, 2, 4, 7, etc. and about knowledge in Chapter 4, 5, 13, 18, etc. (Please note: provide related Gita Sloka 1st, support it with examples from other scriptures if needed) Please discuss... 1) What is duty (dharma)? Dharma means many things and therefore the best thing is to determine in what context this word is used for. For example, dharma means righteousness, moral merits, ethical conduct,

good work, religion, sacrifice, customary observance of cast (kshatriya dharma, Vaishya dharma, etc.), law-nyaaya (like how we call Yudhisthir to be dharmaraaj), observing prescribed duty ( maatrudharma, pitrudharma, putra/putridharma, pati-patnidharma, rajadharma, prajadharma, etc.), essential quality-characteristic-attribute (like heat is the dharma of agni). Dha rma means that which upholds or it means the law of being, i.e., atma (without atma within us we are nothing and the only link we have with our atma is our breath!) Also before we start I want to make another point, the one who follows dharma is called dharmaatmaa, do you agree? So if we do our worldly duties-kartavya as we perceive it to be the dharma towards our family, friend, nation, etc. do you think we become dharmaatmaa? Let's also remain focus on this aspect too

because Lord asks Arjun at one time to become a true yogi. What Shaileshji has described in the 1st paragraph of his email, Lord defines that energy to be the Raajsik in nature (18:34). Even though we use the term dharma and kartavya interchangeably sometimes, Lord clearly separates them in BG 18:30-32. So now after removing all the duty - kartavya part from dharma, can someone tell me what is dharma? In my opinion, Lord simply points us to the spiritual (not religious as people have different definitions of religion) aspect of it and that's what Swamiji Maharaj is indicating in his message. Swamiji Maharaj is not talking about Saatvik, Raajsik or Taamsik definitions, rather, his attempt is to make us aware of that energy which is inherant within all of us

which is beyond even saatvik one!!! As Baba says that you can give something to others, including your family, ONLY when you possess that something. If you don't have love within you, you will never be able to give love to anybody! If you don't have money with you, you can never lend it to anybody! If you yourself don't perceive the divinity within you, you can never make your family members understand it! To change the world, we have to change ourselves first. Before looking outside, it is wise to look within us first and that is definitely not a selfish attitude rather it is highly righteous (dharmic) one. So even though it seems very selfish to have the goal of 'self realization', it is definitely not the selfish one and carries more than 100% return on investment for the family, society and universe as a whole. That's why we value the true guru, our ancient sages for their wisdom

and documenting it in the scriptures, that's our inheritance (for those who attempts to understand and apply it) - no not the happiness but the bliss, the true love, the freedom ...!!! The true guru/saint/sage/rishi is such a person who just does not convert iron into gold but he produces more philosopher's stone who can do the same for the society... Am I making any sense what so ever? So let's see what is duty or dharma? Arjun says in BG 2:7 that I am 'dharmasammudhachetaah...' What does he really meant by that? He seeks refuge at Lord's feet requesting to educate him on this subject as he considers him to be Lord's disciple. BG 2:38, Lord said that forget about

victory-defeat, gain-loss and pleasure-pain, in other words, lift yourself above (be in a state that upholds!) all of these and engage yourself in the battle. Also in BG 2:40 He talks about Karma Yoga - the starting of selfless efforts (karma), no effort is wasted rather this dharma protects from the fear. What dharma is Lord talking here? What fear is He referring to? (see BG 9:3 below) In BG 4:7 Lord talks about him being born when the destruction of dharma-rituousness takes place or the rise in adharma takes place. He also continues in 4:8 that to lift-up or liberate saadhu purush, to destroy those who are engaged in the sinful act & to establish dharama I am born. So which dharma Lord is talking here? BG 7:11, He is saying in every being (bhuta), I

am the kaamna rahit strength (that is devoid of passion & attachment) and lawful desire (shashtrokta-according to dharma-kaam). So what is this dharma? BG 9:1/2, Lord talks about, 'jyaan vijyaansahitam...', i.e., the supreme knowledge or the knowledge of the supreme, which is considered to be 'rajavidya, raajguhyam, absolutely pure...' He calls acquisition of this knowledge dharmayukta. BG 9:3 then He continues saying that those who are faithless in this dharma do not reach me but return back to the mortal world. So what is true dharma? Finally Lord says in BG 14:27 that I am the immortal and imperishable Brahman, the eternal dharma and the source of the absolute/uninterrupted

happiness/joy/bliss. So now tell me what is dharama? (to be continued... Plz share your thoughts, understanding, experience to expand our horizon. Thanks.) 2) Is our dharma differ towards our family (father, mother, children, friends, relatives), society (neighbour, town, country), world (other nations, environment)? Acharya, Shailesh (S.) < ashailes (AT) ford (DOT) com>Sep 14, 2006 2:53 AM FW: [sadhaka] Success in Human Life ( 13.9.06) Every thing what we do for ourselves or for family will always be with selfish motive, to see them happy and love from them. If the work for family is considered as selfish motive efforts then I think the "Human life success" objective of life could be more selfish attitude. In order to prove own life successful I don't think we should avoid our family objectives. A person can enjoy his life success even if he at the end realize that he was able to do something out of lot and thus was able to see few cheerful faces at his hey days.

Nothing remain done could give ultimate success realization feeling but something done could also be a feeling that can give a satisfaction "Santhosh". Regards, Shailesh Acharya Finance Process & System Leadership Team - ADA Ford Business Service Center - INDIA Phone -

91-44-24556049 sadhaka [sadhaka ] On Behalf Of SadhakThursday, September 14, 2006 1:17 AMSpiritual Group[sadhaka] Success in Human Life (13.9.06) :Shree Hari: Ashwin Krishna Sasthi, Vikram Samvat 2063, Budhvar 13th September, 2006, Wednesday Human life is successful only when: 1) nothing remains to be done, 2) nothing remains to be known and 3) nothing remains to be acquired. When will nothing remain to be done? When you work only for others. In this way when you do nothing for yourself, nothing will remain to be done. If you do things for yourself, the action can never be complete. The reason is that action has a beginning and an end, while you (swayam) remains the same. So something will remain to be done so long as you do for

yourself. But nothing will remain to be done if you work only for others. So if you do nothing for you, nothing will remain to be done. So if you work for yourself and have affinity for the members of the family with a selfish motive, something will remain to be done for endless births. It can never be completed. When will nothing remain to be known? When you know the Self, nothing will remain to be known. When will nothing remain to be acquired? When you realize that nothing can be acquired by the body, senses, mind, intellect and ego for the Self, as the Self is the illuminator of them all. If out of these three, any one condition is satisfied, the remaining two

will be naturally satisfied. You can attain the state of supreme peace and bliss in which nothing remains to be done, to be known and to be acquired. Ram Ram From "Ease of God Realization" by Swami Ramsukhdasji. 3) We are children of God, do we have any dharma towards ourselves? 4) If conflict arises between all these dharmas what takes precedence? 4) What is knowledge? Should we let go our duty in search of knowledge? If yes/no, why? 5) How can we remain detached while performing our

duties? 6) Should our attachment for the search of true knowledge be entertained by us at all? What takes precedence - duty or knowledge? Thanks in advance for your participation. Love. always at Thy Lotus Feet

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