Guest guest Posted November 11, 2006 Report Share Posted November 11, 2006 I May also add to what is said profoundly here is - It is necessary to live this life peacefully, joyfully and serving all, that is why its important to realize We are Conciousness, Awareness and not this limited being who just pulls thru life. What happens to us after body dies, or whether the Self is immortal is not so relevant. Realization that we are Consciousness makes this life beautiful! This is also answer to the original question....Pratap (minor editing by Moderator) --- Anup Wadhwa <anup.clair wrote: > This conversation is really engaging. > If I may share the learning from my master, an easy > way to build conviction > about eternal reality is to pray for experiencing > it. > The THAT is not a number, THAT is ORIGINAL > EXPERIENTIAL STATE where knowing, > communicating, expressing all are happening. > So mind's role is limited. > Thank you for creating my opportunity to express. > TEJSEWAK > > > On 11/9/06, pratapbhatt <pratapbhatt > wrote: > > > > > <%40>, " prakash > > bhave " <phbhave wrote: > > > > > > Sir, > > > Is it necessary to presuppose the existence of > an immortal > > self/soul?Can we not simply accept the fact/the > situation that this > > bodily form is perishable and be comfortable with > it? > > > Regards. > > > Bhave > > > > The way I understand is: One doesn't have a choice > of presupposition of > > the existence of Self-Atman because one cannot > even ask question like this > > if there is no Self-Atman-Consciousness. In > otherwords only a Conscious > > Being can ask such a question. This Conscious > Being is generally assumed to > > be the body-mind organism which eventually dies, > but is it true? Can dead > > person think, feel or act? One has to see very > clearly that Atman/soul is > > this Consciousness-Life that is with us all the > time, never leaves us and > > above all is not personal. It perceives all > objects/experiences which > > together constitute our world by operating our > body-mind organisms. Our own > > bodies are objects of perception made possible by > this Consciousness! > > Now the difficulty is one cannot see this way and > imagines Atma as > > something far and apart from us and difficult to > experience! We are > > so much identified with Body-mind organism which > is mortal for sure. > > However if one makes open minded inquiry, plays > devil's advocate then one > > will see a glimpse of one's true self as this > Immortal and > > Impersonal SELF or Consciousness which is also at > the same time > > Existence-Knowingness-Bliss(Sat-Chit-Ananda)! > > This is experiencially with us all the time as > self evident feeling > > of " I AM " . One cannot deny one's own existence, > right? one's own body-mind > > gets denied as in deep sleep but not one's own > existence. > > Now if one is comfortable with perishing body > without any suffering, > > not afraid of death, doesn't make any > issue/conflict then can we not > > say that one lives as if one is this soul? Once > this happens, the > > Immortality of Self will be experienced by Self's > Grace! > > It is easier to accept death etc if we know who we > are than otherwise. We > > know body dies(although one never experience one's > death) but how can we > > know for sure that THAT which perceives thru us > dies? Like an electricity > > that lights bulbs, and other gedgets, tools etc > cannot cease to exist when > > these tools don't work or bulbs blow out. It works > thru other gadgets even > > as Consciousness lights all other bodies. > > On my part I try to live from this perspective as > if I am not this > > person, limited being with separate body-mind. > > > > -- > Anup Wadhwa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 If I may address this issue,Knowing we are consciousness is not a bad thing at all. It is I would say half the battle. The other half is extricating ourselves , our conscious-being, that is, from this miserable material world. As Shree Krishna says in chapter nine, verse number 33 of His Gita, 'anityam asukham lokam', this world is very short-lived, and full of suffering. So, we should also know where we should rather be. Krishna ji has his place, his divine planet Goloka. There it is 'nitya sukham', ever-blissful. So, even if we realize that this body is not our real self, still we must worship Shree Krishna mindfully and lovingly to insure our next birth in the eternal planetary systems of Vaikuntha. 'Imam praapya bhajasva maam', from the same verse says just what I have stated. If , as an example , I knew that despite my poverty I was in fact the King's lost son, that would be a great realization, but if I did not remove myself from my present situation and go to where I would be recognized and given my rightful inheritance then what have I accomplished? Avadhoot > > bhave" <phbhave wrote: > > > > > > Sir, > > > Is it necessary to presuppose the existence of > an immortal > > self/soul?Can we not simply accept the fact/the > situation that this > > bodily form is perishable and be comfortable with > it? > > > Regards. > > > Bhave > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 The way I see is that knowing our true identity to be Atman which is Conscious-Existence Absolute is the ultimate realization whether one goes thru self-less karma, or total surrender of " I-Ego " as one mature in Bhakti. When I read or say Krishna it means Consciousness! Krishnaji realized his true identity to be Brahman or Consciousness, so when he says " Mamekam Sharanam " he means surrender the " I " to Consciousness, the presence within only. He cannot be speaking of surrendering to Him as an individual body-mind organism. Only symbalically He says Him-Maam which is also translated by various teachers. Gita takes on extra-ordinary meaning when one substitues Sat-Chit-Ananda for every time Krishnaji or Bhagwan is mentioned. This Consciousness which we truely are is not personal, rather Impersonal. Upon realizing(which is ardous journey in itself of course) one need not do anything to extricate this world at all, as the world has already been transcended and is experienced as Lila. We don't have to validate/believe reincarnations, Vaikuntha, swarga etc. They are mentioned for contemplative purpose to purify mind until this final truth dawns on the so called seeker! He knows he is not a person, individual and doer without which no karmas can stand, so no reincarnation etc. Why not live from now on as if we are this Conscious-Presence within rather than wait. We can Love, bedevoted to Krishnaji while living this way. Thanks.... --- avadhuta maharaja <avadhutamaharaja wrote: > If I may address this issue, > > Knowing we are consciousness is not a bad thing at > all. It is I would say half the battle. The other > half is extricating ourselves , our conscious-being, > that is, from this miserable material world. As > Shree Krishna says in chapter nine, verse number 33 > of His Gita, 'anityam asukham lokam', this world is > very short-lived, and full of suffering. So, we > should also know where we should rather be. Krishna > ji has his place, his divine planet Goloka. There it > is 'nitya sukham', ever-blissful. > So, even if we realize that this body is not our > real self, still we must worship Shree Krishna > mindfully and lovingly to insure our next birth in > the eternal planetary systems of Vaikuntha. 'Imam > praapya bhajasva maam', from the same verse says > just what I have stated. > If , as an example , I knew that despite my poverty > I was in fact the King's lost son, that would be a > great realization, but if I did not remove myself > from my present situation and go to where I would be > recognized and given my rightful inheritance then > what have I accomplished? > > Avadhoot > > Pratap Bhatt <pratapbhatt wrote: > I May also add to what is > said profoundly here is - > It is necessary to live this life peacefully, > joyfully > and serving all, that is why its important to > realize > We are Conciousness, Awareness and not this limited > being who just pulls thru life. What happens to > us after body dies, or whether the Self is immortal > is not so relevant. Realization that we are > Consciousness makes this life beautiful! This is > also answer to the original question....Pratap > (minor editing by Moderator) > > --- Anup Wadhwa <anup.clair wrote: > > > This conversation is really engaging. > > If I may share the learning from my master, an > easy > > way to build conviction > > about eternal reality is to pray for experiencing > > it. > > The THAT is not a number, THAT is ORIGINAL > > EXPERIENTIAL STATE where knowing, > > communicating, expressing all are happening. > > So mind's role is limited. > > Thank you for creating my opportunity to express. > > TEJSEWAK > > > > > > On 11/9/06, pratapbhatt <pratapbhatt > > wrote: > > > > > > > > <%40>, " prakash > > > bhave " <phbhave wrote: > > > > > > > > Sir, > > > > Is it necessary to presuppose the existence > of > > an immortal > > > self/soul?Can we not simply accept the fact/the > > situation that this > > > bodily form is perishable and be comfortable > with > > it? > > > > Regards. > > > > Bhave > > > > > > The way I understand is: One doesn't have a > choice > > of presupposition of > > > the existence of Self-Atman because one cannot > > even ask question like this > > > if there is no Self-Atman-Consciousness. In > > otherwords only a Conscious > > > Being can ask such a question. This Conscious > > Being is generally assumed to > > > be the body-mind organism which eventually > dies, > > but is it true? Can dead > > > person think, feel or act? One has to see very > > clearly that Atman/soul is > > > this Consciousness-Life that is with us all the > > time, never leaves us and > > > above all is not personal. It perceives all > > objects/experiences which > > > together constitute our world by operating our > > body-mind organisms. Our own > > > bodies are objects of perception made possible > by > > this Consciousness! > > > Now the difficulty is one cannot see this way > and > > imagines Atma as > > > something far and apart from us and difficult > to > > experience! We are > > > so much identified with Body-mind organism > which > > is mortal for sure. > > > However if one makes open minded inquiry, plays > > devil's advocate then one > > > will see a glimpse of one's true self as this > > Immortal and > > > Impersonal SELF or Consciousness which is also > at > > the same time > > > Existence-Knowingness-Bliss(Sat-Chit-Ananda)! > > > This is experiencially with us all the time as > > self evident feeling > > > of " I AM " . One cannot deny one's own existence, > > right? one's own body-mind > > > gets denied as in deep sleep but not one's own > > existence. > > > Now if one is comfortable with perishing body > > without any suffering, > > > not afraid of death, doesn't make any > > issue/conflict then can we not > > > say that one lives as if one is this soul? Once > > this happens, the > > > Immortality of Self will be experienced by > Self's > > Grace! > > > It is easier to accept death etc if we know who > we > > are than otherwise. We > > > know body dies(although one never experience > one's > > death) but how can we > > > know for sure that THAT which perceives thru us > > dies? Like an electricity > > > that lights bulbs, and other gedgets, tools etc > > cannot cease to exist when > > > these tools don't work or bulbs blow out. It > works > > thru other gadgets even > > > as Consciousness lights all other bodies. > > > On my part I try to live from this perspective > as > > if I am not this > > > person, limited being with separate body-mind. > > > > > > -- > > Anup Wadhwa > Everyone is raving about the all-new Mail beta. ______________________________\ ____ Everyone is raving about the all-new Mail beta. http://new.mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 While reading Gita, I also came to feel that Gita could be understood by me better if Lord Krushna was regarded as the source of everpresent consciousness rather than a physical individual. Thanks. Bhave --- MODERATOR ADDITION: From Swamiji's Message God reciprocates the sentiments of His devotees. " The way a devotee worships Me, so do I approach him; for all men ultimately follow My path." (Gita 4:11) However devotees seek God, so God reveals Himself to the devotee and grants them their hearts' desires. If a devotee thinks of God as his preceptor, He becomes an excellent teacher, a guide. Similarly, God becomes a worthy father or mother, son, brother, friend, a lover or even an obedient servant, according to the desires and sentiments of the devotee. In your case you are seeking Lord Krishna as ever present consciousness rather than a physical being, therefore He comes to you with that bhava. A Sadhak Ram Ram --- pratapbhatt <pratapbhatt >> > wrote:> > >> > > > > <%40>, "prakash> > > bhave" <phbhave wrote:> > > >> > > > Sir,> > > > Is it necessary to presuppose the existence> of> > an immortal> > > self/soul?Can we not simply accept the fact/the> > situation that this> > > bodily form is perishable and be comfortable> with> > it?> > > > Regards.> > > > Bhave> > >> > > The way I understand is: One doesn't have a> choice> > of presupposition of> > > the existence of Self-Atman because one cannot> > even ask question like this> > > if there is no Self-Atman-Consciousness. In> > otherwords only a Conscious> > > Being can ask such a question. This Conscious> > Being is generally assumed to> > > be the body-mind organism which eventually> dies,> > but is it true? Can dead> > > person think, feel or act? One has to see very> > clearly that Atman/soul is> > > this Consciousness-Life that is with us all the> > time, never leaves us and> > > above all is not personal. It perceives all> > objects/experiences which> > > together constitute our world by operating our> > body-mind organisms. Our own> > > bodies are objects of perception made possible> by> > this Consciousness!> > > Now the difficulty is one cannot see this way> and> > imagines Atma as> > > something far and apart from us and difficult> to> > experience! We are> > > so much identified with Body-mind organism> which> > is mortal for sure.> > > However if one makes open minded inquiry, plays> > devil's advocate then one> > > will see a glimpse of one's true self as this> > Immortal and> > > Impersonal SELF or Consciousness which is also> at> > the same time> > > Existence-Knowingness-Bliss(Sat-Chit-Ananda)!> > > This is experiencially with us all the time as> > self evident feeling> > > of "I AM". One cannot deny one's own existence,> > right? one's own body-mind> > > gets denied as in deep sleep but not one's own> > existence.> > > Now if one is comfortable with perishing body> > without any suffering,> > > not afraid of death, doesn't make any> > issue/conflict then can we not> > > say that one lives as if one is this soul? Once> > this happens, the> > > Immortality of Self will be experienced by> Self's> > Grace!> > > It is easier to accept death etc if we know who> we> > are than otherwise. We> > > know body dies(although one never experience> one's> > death) but how can we> > > know for sure that THAT which perceives thru us> > dies? Like an electricity> > > that lights bulbs, and other gedgets, tools etc> > cannot cease to exist when> > > these tools don't work or bulbs blow out. It> works> > thru other gadgets even> > > as Consciousness lights all other bodies.> > > On my part I try to live from this perspective> as> > if I am not this> > > person, limited being with separate body-mind.> > >> > > -- > > Anup Wadhwa> > > > > > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Mailbeta.________Everyone is raving about the all-new Mail beta.http://new.mail. -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2006 Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 Yes, I too understand the same that God/Lord Krishna as the ever present consciousness. Just to add a little to this: in Gita: 4.7, it says: "whenever and wherever there is decline in religious practice,O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion - at that time, "I" descend myself" I guess the meaning of this is..Lord Krishna will not come as Krishna itself but "I" here means Supreme Consciousness. I also see in Gita 9.16 also, Lord says: "But it is I who am the ritual, I the sacrifice, the offering to the ancestors, the healing herb, the transcedental chant. I am the butter and the fire and the offering." Here again, "I" means again not Lord in physical form but the Supreme pervading in everything either in living or in dead, animate or inanimate and everything for that matter. Regards.prakash bhave <phbhave wrote: While reading Gita, I also came to feel that Gita could be understood by me better if Lord Krushna was regarded as the source of everpresent consciousness rather than a physical individual. Thanks. Bhave--- MODERATOR ADDITION: From Swamiji's Message God reciprocates the sentiments of His devotees. " The way a devotee worships Me, so do I approach him; for all men ultimately follow My path." (Gita 4:11) However devotees seek God, so God reveals Himself to the devotee and grants them their hearts' desires. If a devotee thinks of God as his preceptor, He becomes an excellent teacher, a guide. Similarly, God becomes a worthy father or mother, son, brother, friend, a lover or even an obedient servant, according to the desires and sentiments of the devotee. In your case you are seeking Lord Krishna as ever present consciousness rather than a physical being, therefore He comes to you with that bhava. A Sadhak Ram Ram --- pratapbhatt <pratapbhatt >> > wrote:> > >> > > > > <%40>, "prakash> > > bhave" <phbhave wrote:> > > >> > > > Sir,> > > > Is it necessary to presuppose the existence> of> > an immortal> > > self/soul?Can we not simply accept the fact/the> > situation that this> > > bodily form is perishable and be comfortable> with> > it?> > > > Regards.> > > > Bhave> > >> > > The way I understand is: One doesn't have a> choice> > of presupposition of> > > the existence of Self-Atman because one cannot> > even ask question like this> > > if there is no Self-Atman-Consciousness. In> > otherwords only a Conscious> > > Being can ask such a question. This Conscious> > Being is generally assumed to> > > be the body-mind organism which eventually> dies,> > but is it true? Can dead> > > person think, feel or act? One has to see very> > clearly that Atman/soul is> > > this Consciousness-Life that is with us all the> > time, never leaves us and> > > above all is not personal. It perceives all> > objects/experiences which> > > together constitute our world by operating our> > body-mind organisms. Our own> > > bodies are objects of perception made possible> by> > this Consciousness!> > > Now the difficulty is one cannot see this way> and> > imagines Atma as> > > something far and apart from us and difficult> to> > experience! We are> > > so much identified with Body-mind organism> which> > is mortal for sure.> > > However if one makes open minded inquiry, plays> > devil's advocate then one> > > will see a glimpse of one's true self as this> > Immortal and> > > Impersonal SELF or Consciousness which is also> at> > the same time> > > Existence-Knowingness-Bliss(Sat-Chit-Ananda)!> > > This is experiencially with us all the time as> > self evident feeling> > > of "I AM". One cannot deny one's own existence,> > right? one's own body-mind> > > gets denied as in deep sleep but not one's own> > existence.> > > Now if one is comfortable with perishing body> > without any suffering,> > > not afraid of death, doesn't make any> > issue/conflict then can we not> > > say that one lives as if one is this soul? Once> > this happens, the> > > Immortality of Self will be experienced by> Self's> > Grace!> > > It is easier to accept death etc if we know who> we> > are than otherwise. We> > > know body dies(although one never experience> one's> > death) but how can we> > > know for sure that THAT which perceives thru us> > dies? Like an electricity> > > that lights bulbs, and other gedgets, tools etc> > cannot cease to exist when> > > these tools don't work or bulbs blow out. It> works> > thru other gadgets even> > > as Consciousness lights all other bodies.> > > On my part I try to live from this perspective> as> > if I am not this> > > person, limited being with separate body-mind.> > >> > > -- > > Anup Wadhwa> > > > > > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Mailbeta.________Everyone is raving about the all-new Mail beta.http://new.mail. -- Access over 1 million songs - Music Unlimited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2006 Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 A comment or two:As the sages of the forest Naimeesharanya queried Suta Goswami on the nature of Absolute Reality he declared that the Absolute be known in three degrees of realization and absorption: 'brahman, paramatman and bhagavan'. All those transcendentalists who abhor personality or find a conflict with 'nirgun brahm' will on completion of the course of 'sadhana' be absorbed into the divine light known as Brahmajyoti devoid of any variety or social status. Since it is 'viraja' or beyond the modes of nature and material contact there is a great peace obtained. Those who take the advice of Shree Krishna[Gita 12.5] and accept him as he is, a divine being who is simultaneously present in one place and everywhere by dint of his expansion of energies [Gita 9.4] go beyond this impersonal absolute field of homogeneous consciousness to the abodes of divine service, Vaikuntha, never to return to this material world again[ 'yat gatva na nirvartante'. Since the divine abode hails ever blissful spiritual rasa it guarantees one from ever having to fall from grace. It is the eternal land of love in full variety without the slightest trace of inebriety. The bodies of those individuals are fully spiritual. They experience no death, no disease, no old age, no anxiety, and no fear [Gita 8.20].For those whose consciousness has been merged into the 'nirvisesh brahm' or nondifferentiated existence there is no such guarantee of freedom. One can fall back down again into the material tabernacle of repeated birth and death which has been proclaimed by Shree Krishna in an effort to uplift those who stubbornly reject his personality. [srimad Bhagavatam 10.2.32].To spark our imaginations toward ever-blissful pursuits of divine realization I did find the following definition of God given by a 16th century devotee which I thought I would share with everyone here,"He who is the very form of existence, consciousness and bliss, who possesses inconceivable, multifarious and unlimited energies that are of his own nature, he who is the ocean of unlimited, mutually contradictory qualities, such that in him both the attribute and the possessor of attributes, the lack of differences and the varieties of difference, formlessness and form, pervasiveness and centrality all are true, who’s beautiful form is distinct from both gross and subtle entities, self-luminous and consisting entirely of his own nature, who has unlimited such forms that are manifested by his chief form called Bhagavan, who’s left side is beautified by Laksmi, who is the manifestation of his personal energy suitable to his own form, Bhagavan resides in his own abode along with his associates, who are furnished with a form that is a special manifestation of his own splendor, who astonishes the hosts of atmaramas, those who take pleasure in the self, by his wonderful qualities, pastimes, et cetera, which are characterized by the playing of his personal energy, who’s own generic brilliance is manifested in the form of the reality, who is the sole shelter and life of this marginal energy called the jivas, who’s mere reflected energy are the gunas, visible in unlimited phenomenal world, that person is Bhagavan." The author is Jiva Goswami.Avadhootprakash bhave <phbhave wrote: While reading Gita, I also came to feel that Gita could be understood by me better if Lord Krushna was regarded as the source of everpresent consciousness rather than a physical individual. Thanks. Bhave --- MODERATOR ADDITION: From Swamiji's Message God reciprocates the sentiments of His devotees. " The way a devotee worships Me, so do I approach him; for all men ultimately follow My path." (Gita 4:11) However devotees seek God, so God reveals Himself to the devotee and grants them their hearts' desires. If a devotee thinks of God as his preceptor, He becomes an excellent teacher, a guide. Similarly, God becomes a worthy father or mother, son, brother, friend, a lover or even an obedient servant, according to the desires and sentiments of the devotee. In your case you are seeking Lord Krishna as ever present consciousness rather than a physical being, therefore He comes to you with that bhava. A Sadhak Ram Ram --- pratapbhatt <pratapbhatt >> > wrote:> > >> > > > > <%40>, "prakash> > > bhave" <phbhave wrote:> > > >> > > > Sir,> > > > Is it necessary to presuppose the existence> of> > an immortal> > > self/soul?Can we not simply accept the fact/the> > situation that this> > > bodily form is perishable and be comfortable> with> > it?> > > > Regards.> > > > Bhave> > >> > > The way I understand is: One doesn't have a> choice> > of presupposition of> > > the existence of Self-Atman because one cannot> > even ask question like this> > > if there is no Self-Atman-Consciousness. In> > otherwords only a Conscious> > > Being can ask such a question. This Conscious> > Being is generally assumed to> > > be the body-mind organism which eventually> dies,> > but is it true? Can dead> > > person think, feel or act? One has to see very> > clearly that Atman/soul is> > > this Consciousness-Life that is with us all the> > time, never leaves us and> > > above all is not personal. It perceives all> > objects/experiences which> > > together constitute our world by operating our> > body-mind organisms. Our own> > > bodies are objects of perception made possible> by> > this Consciousness!> > > Now the difficulty is one cannot see this way> and> > imagines Atma as> > > something far and apart from us and difficult> to> > experience! We are> > > so much identified with Body-mind organism> which> > is mortal for sure.> > > However if one makes open minded inquiry, plays> > devil's advocate then one> > > will see a glimpse of one's true self as this> > Immortal and> > > Impersonal SELF or Consciousness which is also> at> > the same time> > > Existence-Knowingness-Bliss(Sat-Chit-Ananda)!> > > This is experiencially with us all the time as> > self evident feeling> > > of "I AM". One cannot deny one's own existence,> > right? one's own body-mind> > > gets denied as in deep sleep but not one's own> > existence.> > > Now if one is comfortable with perishing body> > without any suffering,> > > not afraid of death, doesn't make any> > issue/conflict then can we not> > > say that one lives as if one is this soul? Once> > this happens, the> > > Immortality of Self will be experienced by> Self's> > Grace!> > > It is easier to accept death etc if we know who> we> > are than otherwise. We> > > know body dies(although one never experience> one's> > death) but how can we> > > know for sure that THAT which perceives thru us> > dies? Like an electricity> > > that lights bulbs, and other gedgets, tools etc> > cannot cease to exist when> > > these tools don't work or bulbs blow out. It> works> > thru other gadgets even> > > as Consciousness lights all other bodies.> > > On my part I try to live from this perspective> as> > if I am not this> > > person, limited being with separate body-mind.> > >> > > -- > > Anup Wadhwa> > > > > > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Mailbeta.________Everyone is raving about the all-new Mail beta.http://new.mail. -- Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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