Q: Is the Caste System by Birth or by Deed?

[Guest guest]

We cannot have a caste system by birth. The four stages exists in all the people and one who is following the righteous path is attaining all the four stages. The caste system that we follow today namely Iyer, Iyengar and so many are all the by products that we obtained from our ancestors in order to make them distinct from the rest and to prove their noteworthiness. In the meantime they became the truth and the originality that we had was lost. Most of the educated people of today's generation also knows all these facts. But if they accept the truth they cannot get the respect from the society as they are getting today. Thats why they are not accepting it. So the caste system never originates from the birth. It comes only through the Stages and deeds of our life. hindudemocracy <hindudemocracy wrote: There is no caste system by birth or even by deeds. Varna is not equivalent to caste. All Vernas are arising from a single Person tnat means every person has all the qualities of 4 types a power to think and meditate, strength to fight for truth and dharma,earning for sustaining family , service of society. Every person is complete in himself. Keep aside these caste notions. There is no caste system in Hinduism and those who follow such notions are going on a wrong track , Suhas Kulhalli <srkulhalli

wrote:>> Ram,> > In the Bhagwad Gita, Shri Krishna defines the four fold division of people types, based on "GunKarma" -(Bhagwad Gita 4-13) guna is quality or "nature" of a person and Karma are his actions. Karmas are straightforward to see, since they are manifested actions. > > What results in the formation of "gunas" in a person. ie what are the contributing factors to the "quality" or "nature' of a person. I found a more direct answer in the Udhav Gita, wherein Krishna gives 10 causative factors which result in ones Guna. They are the food one eats, scriptures, people, place, time, work, birth, meditation, Mantra and purificatory rites (Udhav Gita : 8-4). Udhav Gita is the message of Shri Krishna to Udhava, like Bhagvad Gita was Shri Krishnas message to Arjuna.> > To answer your question, deed definitely, birth plays a relatively minor role.> > Hari

Om,> > Ram Krishna <rkp wrote:> ||Shri Hari||> > Would appreciate comments and views with reference to verses of the Gita -> Is the Caste System by Birth or by Deed?> > Ram Ram> > from MODERATOR> > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.> > 1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other scriptures to> substantiate the response> > 2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to> twenty line maximum, if possible).> > 3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.> > 4. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations> > 5. Please do not include your personal information such as phone> number, address etc.> > 6. Kindly do not address the response to a particular individual,> since the message is going to the

entire group.> > MODERATOR> Ram Ram> > > > > > > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.> Try the free Mail Beta.>Thanks and Regards, R.Shyam Kumar.

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[Guest guest]

dear all,caste system is by birth only as prevalent in society since immemorial time. also family ( read as small caste group) fosters casteism.a kshatrya born in a such a family and brought up in such a way is less likely to act like a brahmin in his adult life..prnaamss.seshadrihindudemocracy <hindudemocracy wrote: There is no caste system by birth or even by deeds. Varna is not equivalent to caste. All Vernas are arising from a single Person tnat means every person has all the

qualities of 4 types a power to think and meditate, strength to fight for truth and dharma,earning for sustaining family , service of society. Every person is complete in himself. Keep aside these caste notions. There is no caste system in Hinduism and those who follow such notions are going on a wrong track , Suhas Kulhalli <srkulhalli wrote: > > Ram, > > In the Bhagwad Gita, Shri Krishna defines the four fold division of people types, based on "GunKarma" -(Bhagwad Gita 4-13) guna is quality or "nature" of a person and Karma are his actions. Karmas are straightforward to see, since they are manifested actions. > > What results in the formation of "gunas" in a person. ie what are the contributing factors to the "quality" or "nature' of a person. I found a

more direct answer in the Udhav Gita, wherein Krishna gives 10 causative factors which result in ones Guna. They are the food one eats, scriptures, people, place, time, work, birth, meditation, Mantra and purificatory rites (Udhav Gita : 8-4). Udhav Gita is the message of Shri Krishna to Udhava, like Bhagvad Gita was Shri Krishnas message to Arjuna. > > To answer your question, deed definitely, birth plays a relatively minor role. > > Hari Om, > > Ram Krishna <rkp wrote: > ||Shri Hari|| > > Would appreciate comments and views with reference to verses of the Gita - > Is the Caste System by Birth or by Deed? > > Ram Ram > > from MODERATOR > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions. > > 1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other scriptures to >

substantiate the response > > 2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to > twenty line maximum, if possible). > > 3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand. > > 4. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations > > 5. Please do not include your personal information such as phone > number, address etc. > > 6. Kindly do not address the response to a particular individual, > since the message is going to the entire group. > > MODERATOR > Ram Ram > > >

[Guest guest]

It has now become a fashion to say that the caste

system should not be by birth, but it should be by

karma. Bhagwan Shri Krushna himself has shown us the

division of four 'varnas' and let me comment that we

were really a very happy nation when we were observing

this four varna society compared to the present 4000

castes !

 

In fact, " bhed se hi srushti hai " . Even the western

scientists have now accepted and proved through the

genetic science that there is something inside us

which differentiate from other similar or same

individual. Unfortunately this is the time of hybrid

products! Bhagwan Shri Krushna has warned asked Arjun

to fight out as he is not Brahmin by birth and he is

Kshatriya by birth. ( " Pragyavaadansch bhaashate.. "

2/11) ( " Chaaturvarnyam maya srushtam.. 4/13.

 

Pujyapaad Swaamiji (Swami Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj)

has also given a great thought and his essay on this

very subject is there on page-871 of SAADHAN, SUDHA,

SINDHU.

 

-Bharat Sukhparia,

Advocate, Jamnagar.

 

Hindi readers can read this essay at:

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sadhansudhasin\

dhu/main.html

 

--- " R. Shyam Kumar " <shyam_elcom wrote:

 

> We cannot have a caste system by birth. The four

> stages exists in all the people and one who is

> following the righteous path is attaining all the

> four stages. The caste system that we follow today

> namely Iyer, Iyengar and so many are all the by

> products that we obtained from our ancestors in

> order to make them distinct from the rest and to

> prove their noteworthiness. In the meantime they

> became the truth and the originality that we had was

> lost. Most of the educated people of today's

> generation also knows all these facts. But if they

> accept the truth they cannot get the respect from

> the society as they are getting today. Thats why

> they are not accepting it. So the caste system never

> originates from the birth. It comes only through the

> Stages and deeds of our life.

>

>

>

> hindudemocracy <hindudemocracy wrote:

> There is no caste system by birth or even

> by deeds. Varna is not

> equivalent to caste. All Vernas are arising from a

> single Person

> tnat means every person has all the qualities of 4

> types a power to

> think and meditate, strength to fight for truth and

> dharma,earning

> for sustaining family , service of society. Every

> person is complete

> in himself. Keep aside these caste notions. There is

> no caste system

> in Hinduism and those who follow such notions are

> going on a wrong

> track

>

> , Suhas Kulhalli

> <srkulhalli

> wrote:

> >

> > Ram,

> >

> > In the Bhagwad Gita, Shri Krishna defines the four

> fold division

> of people types, based on " GunKarma " -(Bhagwad Gita

> 4-13) guna is

> quality or " nature " of a person and Karma are his

> actions. Karmas

> are straightforward to see, since they are

> manifested actions.

> >

> > What results in the formation of " gunas " in a

> person. ie what

> are the contributing factors to the " quality " or

> " nature' of a

> person. I found a more direct answer in the Udhav

> Gita, wherein

> Krishna gives 10 causative factors which result in

> ones Guna. They

> are the food one eats, scriptures, people, place,

> time, work, birth,

> meditation, Mantra and purificatory rites (Udhav

> Gita : 8-4). Udhav

> Gita is the message of Shri Krishna to Udhava, like

> Bhagvad Gita was

> Shri Krishnas message to Arjuna.

> >

> > To answer your question, deed definitely, birth

> plays a relatively

> minor role.

> >

> > Hari Om,

> >

> > Ram Krishna <rkp wrote:

> > ||Shri Hari||

> >

> > Would appreciate comments and views with reference

> to verses of

> the Gita -

> > Is the Caste System by Birth or by Deed?

> >

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > from MODERATOR

> >

> > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk

> discussions.

> >

> > 1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other

> scriptures to

> > substantiate the response

> >

> > 2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the

> point. (Up to

> > twenty line maximum, if possible).

> >

> > 3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.

> >

> > 4. Please do not include links to other sites or

> other

> organizations

> >

> > 5. Please do not include your personal information

> such as phone

> > number, address etc.

> >

> > 6. Kindly do not address the response to a

> particular individual,

> > since the message is going to the entire group.

> >

> > MODERATOR

> > Ram Ram

> >

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I am sorry I beg to differ Lord

Krishna has clearly said in verse 13 chapter 4 that I have created four

varunas by gunas and by karmas (not by birth). Karma in sanskrit means duties.

Respectfully submitted

Anil Aggarwal

--

 

Genetic science shows that our genes have some control over body and mind but with training we can over come our shortcoming.

This has nothing to do with Bhagvad Geeta's teaching that if we are born in particular caste or culture, we must conform to that.

 

A lower caste person has same genes in the body as one born in the higher caste.

I am surprised that with current scientific data, we are still talking about caste system. Let's talk about more creative things

Gope Gidwani

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of bharat sukhparia

Saturday, March 17, 2007

2:59 PM

 

Re: Q: Is the

Caste System by Birth or by Deed?

 

 

 

 

 

It has

now become a fashion to say that the caste

system should not be by birth, but it should be by

karma. Bhagwan Shri Krushna himself has shown us the

division of four 'varnas' and let me comment that we

were really a very happy nation when we were observing

this four varna

society compared to the present 4000

castes !

 

In fact, " bhed se hi srushti hai " . Even the western

scientists have now accepted and proved through the

genetic science that there is something inside us

which differentiate from other similar or same

individual. Unfortunately this is the time of hybrid

products! Bhagwan Shri Krushna has warned asked Arjun

to fight out as he is not Brahmin by birth and he is

Kshatriya by birth. ( " Pragyavaadansch bhaashate.. "

2/11) ( " Chaaturvarnyam maya srushtam.. 4/13.

 

Pujyapaad Swaamiji (Swami Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj)

has also given a great thought and his essay on this

very subject is there on page-871 of SAADHAN, SUDHA,

SINDHU.

 

-Bharat Sukhparia,

Advocate, Jamnagar.

 

Hindi readers can read this essay at:

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sadhansudhasindhu/main.html

 

--- " R. Shyam Kumar " <shyam_elcom (AT) (DOT) co.uk>

wrote:

 

> We cannot have a caste system by birth. The four

> stages exists in all the people and one who is

> following the righteous path is attaining all the

> four stages. The caste system that we follow today

> namely Iyer, Iyengar and so many are all the by

> products that we obtained from our ancestors in

> order to make them distinct from the rest and to

> prove their noteworthiness. In the meantime they

> became the truth and the originality that we had was

> lost. Most of the educated people of today's

> generation also knows all these facts. But if they

> accept the truth they cannot get the respect from

> the society as they are getting today. Thats why

> they are not accepting it. So the caste system never

> originates from the birth. It comes only through the

> Stages and deeds of our life.

>

>

>

> hindudemocracy <hindudemocracy (AT) (DOT) co.in>

wrote:

> There is no caste system by birth or even

> by deeds. Varna

is not

> equivalent to caste. All Vernas are arising from a

> single Person

> tnat means every person has all the qualities of 4

> types a power to

> think and meditate, strength to fight for truth and

> dharma,earning

> for sustaining family , service of society. Every

> person is complete

> in himself. Keep aside these caste notions. There is

> no caste system

> in Hinduism and those who follow such notions are

> going on a wrong

> track

>

> ,

Suhas Kulhalli

> <srkulhalli

> wrote:

> >

> > Ram,

> >

> > In the Bhagwad Gita, Shri Krishna defines the four

> fold division

> of people types, based on " GunKarma " -(Bhagwad Gita

> 4-13) guna is

> quality or " nature " of a person and Karma are his

> actions. Karmas

> are straightforward to see, since they are

> manifested actions.

> >

> > What results in the formation of " gunas " in a

> person. ie what

> are the contributing factors to the " quality " or

> " nature' of a

> person. I found a more direct answer in the Udhav

> Gita, wherein

> Krishna gives 10 causative factors which

result in

> ones Guna. They

> are the food one eats, scriptures, people, place,

> time, work, birth,

> meditation, Mantra and purificatory rites (Udhav

> Gita : 8-4). Udhav

> Gita is the message of Shri Krishna to Udhava, like

> Bhagvad Gita was

> Shri Krishnas message to Arjuna.

> >

> > To answer your question, deed definitely, birth

> plays a relatively

> minor role.

> >

> > Hari Om,

> >

> > Ram Krishna <rkp wrote:

> > ||Shri Hari||

> >

> > Would appreciate comments and views with reference

> to verses of

> the Gita -

> > Is the Caste System by Birth or by Deed?

> >

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > from MODERATOR

> >

> > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk

> discussions.

> >

> > 1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other

> scriptures to

> > substantiate the response

> >

> > 2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the

> point. (Up to

> > twenty line maximum, if possible).

> >

> > 3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.

> >

> > 4. Please do not include links to other sites or

> other

> organizations

> >

> > 5. Please do not include your personal information

> such as phone

> > number, address etc.

> >

> > 6. Kindly do not address the response to a

> particular individual,

> > since the message is going to the entire group.

> >

> > MODERATOR

> > Ram Ram

> >

 

 

 

 

________

 

New Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out more at

the Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes.

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[Guest guest]

I agree with Sri Aggarwal ji:

 

Some [or many] religious leaders and Pundits with vested interest started

misquoting Purusha Sooktha and Gita for their personal benefits and

protect their own progeny. Gita never said Arjuna Born in a Kshatriya

Family has to fight the war. Arjuna having been given the Kshatriya

responsibilities as his Guna and Karma has to perform his duties as he is

assigned to that by his creator. That is the meaning. Sri Krishna clearly

says that the Four Varnas are created by Him by the persons Guna and

Karma. Here Guna is the in-born nature or qualities not family or birth.

 

About Genetics: what you say is not true - please read Genetics at

advanced levels -- The entire Indian population consists of the same

Genetics structure of One Male and Two Female ancestors [Possibly the

second Male was not allowed to procreate] who entered India about 55,000

years back and remained the same ever since. They all have similar

Mitochondrial DNA and all males have the same Y-Chromosomes which is

different from those of the Arabs, Anglos and Mongolians. Please read " The

Journey of Man " by Spencer Wells, published by National Geographics. This

is the same as Hindu Purana as Sage Kashyapa had two wives Dithi and

Adithi.

 

Then in genetics, it is more complicated. There is expression, mutation,

and new changes that occur due to environement and all the genes and DNAs

in the cells do not act, some keep quiet. So, all of us have the Genes of

the four Varnas and all the genes for the three Gunas, some are expressed

and some are not. This is exactly what Purushasookths intends to say when

it says that Purusha expresses the Brahmaha from the head, Kshatriya from

the shoulder etc. Srimad Bhagavat Gita also says the same.

Similarly, Purushasooktha explained that the Four Varnas are part of

everyones body and we develop the gunas and charactors by developing them.

It never says that the varnas are produced by the birth in a family. It

did not say Purusha created some people as Brahmana and yet others as

Sudhras etc. In-Born qualities are not to to be confused with birth and

parentage. When we read Purushasooktha and Gita we must confine to what

the Gita says and expand our own understanding. Thank you,

Namaskaram,

Bala N. Aiyer

 

--- Anil Aggarwal <aaggarwal wrote:

 

> I am sorry I beg to differ Lord Krishna has clearly said in verse 13

> chapter 4 that I have created four varunas by gunas and by karmas (not

> by

> birth). Karma in sanskrit means duties.

>

> Respectfully submitted

> Anil Aggarwal

_____

>

> On

> Behalf Of bharat sukhparia

> Saturday, March 17, 2007 2:59 PM

>

> Re: Q: Is the Caste System by Birth or by Deed?

> It has now become a fashion to say that the caste

> system should not be by birth, but it should be by

> karma. Bhagwan Shri Krushna himself has shown us the

> division of four 'varnas' and let me comment that we

> were really a very happy nation when we were observing

> this four varna society compared to the present 4000

> castes !

>

> In fact, " bhed se hi srushti hai " . Even the western

> scientists have now accepted and proved through the

> genetic science that there is something inside us

> which differentiate from other similar or same

> individual. Unfortunately this is the time of hybrid

> products! Bhagwan Shri Krushna has warned asked Arjun

> to fight out as he is not Brahmin by birth and he is

> Kshatriya by birth. ( " Pragyavaadansch bhaashate.. "

> 2/11) ( " Chaaturvarnyam maya srushtam.. 4/13.

>

> Pujyapaad Swaamiji (Swami Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj)

> has also given a great thought and his essay on this

> very subject is there on page-871 of SAADHAN, SUDHA,

> SINDHU.

>

> -Bharat Sukhparia,

> Advocate, Jamnagar.

>

> Hindi readers can read this essay at:

> http://www.swamiram

>

<http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sadhansud

hasindhu/main.html>

>

sukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sadhansudhasindhu/main.html

>

> --- " R. Shyam Kumar " <shyam_elcom@ <shyam_elcom%40.co.uk>

> .co.uk> wrote:

>

> > We cannot have a caste system by birth. The four

> > stages exists in all the people and one who is

> > following the righteous path is attaining all the

> > four stages. The caste system that we follow today

> > namely Iyer, Iyengar and so many are all the by

> > products that we obtained from our ancestors in

> > order to make them distinct from the rest and to

> > prove their noteworthiness. In the meantime they

> > became the truth and the originality that we had was

> > lost. Most of the educated people of today's

> > generation also knows all these facts. But if they

> > accept the truth they cannot get the respect from

> > the society as they are getting today. Thats why

> > they are not accepting it. So the caste system never

> > originates from the birth. It comes only through the

> > Stages and deeds of our life.

> > hindudemocracy <hindudemocracy@ <hindudemocracy%40.co.in>

> .co.in> wrote:

> > There is no caste system by birth or even

> > by deeds. Varna is not

> > equivalent to caste. All Vernas are arising from a

> > single Person

> > tnat means every person has all the qualities of 4

> > types a power to

> > think and meditate, strength to fight for truth and

> > dharma,earning

> > for sustaining family , service of society. Every

> > person is complete

> > in himself. Keep aside these caste notions. There is

> > no caste system

> > in Hinduism and those who follow such notions are

> > going on a wrong

> > track

> >

> > @grou <%40>

> ps.com,

> Suhas Kulhalli

> > <srkulhalli

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Ram,

> > >

> > > In the Bhagwad Gita, Shri Krishna defines the four

> > fold division

> > of people types, based on " GunKarma " -(Bhagwad Gita

> > 4-13) guna is

> > quality or " nature " of a person and Karma are his

> > actions. Karmas

> > are straightforward to see, since they are

> > manifested actions.

> > >

> > > What results in the formation of " gunas " in a

> > person. ie what

> > are the contributing factors to the " quality " or

> > " nature' of a

> > person. I found a more direct answer in the Udhav

> > Gita, wherein

> > Krishna gives 10 causative factors which result in

> > ones Guna. They

> > are the food one eats, scriptures, people, place,

> > time, work, birth,

> > meditation, Mantra and purificatory rites (Udhav

> > Gita : 8-4). Udhav

> > Gita is the message of Shri Krishna to Udhava, like

> > Bhagvad Gita was

> > Shri Krishnas message to Arjuna.

> > >

> > > To answer your question, deed definitely, birth

> > plays a relatively

> > minor role.

> > >

> > > Hari Om,

> > >

> > > Ram Krishna <rkp wrote:

> > > ||Shri Hari||

> > >

> > > Would appreciate comments and views with reference

> > to verses of

> > the Gita -

> > > Is the Caste System by Birth or by Deed?

> > >

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> > > from MODERATOR

> > >

> > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk

> > discussions.

> > >

> > > 1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other

> > scriptures to

> > > substantiate the response

> > >

> > > 2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the

> > point. (Up to

> > > twenty line maximum, if possible).

> > >

> > > 3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.

> > >

> > > 4. Please do not include links to other sites or

> > other

> > organizations

> > >

> > > 5. Please do not include your personal information

> > such as phone

> > > number, address etc.

> > >

> > > 6. Kindly do not address the response to a

> > particular individual,

> > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > >

> > > MODERATOR

> > > Ram Ram

[Guest guest]

Dear Sadhakas, Namasteji:

Let us just remind ourselves that Bhagwan Krishna says

our true identity is Atman, not caste, not our

profession, not our relationships, not our

nationality, not our gender, nor our religions, etc

etc. As Atman-I am, eternal existence, ever conscious,

never to be slain by weapons, nor to be burnt by fire,

nor to be dried by wind, nor water can wet me. And

that which is 'not us' never has reality, merely an

appearnce for playiing drama we know to be Sansar.(Ref

some verses in Ch 2, Gita)

Even unique DNA's we seem to have as science has

discovered are apparant differences at physical body

level only, which we are not. Once we UNDERSTAND our

true identity to be Atman, which is impersonal,

universal, only then we can have proper perspective of

our apparant birth, caste, death etc etc and Sansar

becomes drama. I think our energy will be better spent

to understnad who we are first(paramarthik satya) then

our castes etc (Vyavaharik satya)!

Namaskar... Pratap

--- bharat sukhparia <bsukhparia wrote:

 

> It has now become a fashion to say that the caste

> system should not be by birth, but it should be by

> karma. Bhagwan Shri Krushna himself has shown us the

> division of four 'varnas' and let me comment that we

> were really a very happy nation when we were

> observing

> this four varna society compared to the present 4000

> castes !

>

> In fact, " bhed se hi srushti hai " . Even the western

> scientists have now accepted and proved through the

> genetic science that there is something inside us

> which differentiate from other similar or same

> individual. Unfortunately this is the time of hybrid

> products! Bhagwan Shri Krushna has warned asked

> Arjun

> to fight out as he is not Brahmin by birth and he is

> Kshatriya by birth. ( " Pragyavaadansch bhaashate.. "

> 2/11) ( " Chaaturvarnyam maya srushtam.. 4/13.

>

> Pujyapaad Swaamiji (Swami Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj)

> has also given a great thought and his essay on this

> very subject is there on page-871 of SAADHAN, SUDHA,

> SINDHU.

>

> -Bharat Sukhparia,

> Advocate, Jamnagar.

>

> Hindi readers can read this essay at:

>

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sadhansudhasin\

dhu/main.html

>

> --- " R. Shyam Kumar " <shyam_elcom

> wrote:

>

> > We cannot have a caste system by birth. The four

> > stages exists in all the people and one who is

> > following the righteous path is attaining all the

> > four stages. The caste system that we follow today

> > namely Iyer, Iyengar and so many are all the by

> > products that we obtained from our ancestors in

> > order to make them distinct from the rest and to

> > prove their noteworthiness. In the meantime they

> > became the truth and the originality that we had

> was

> > lost. Most of the educated people of today's

> > generation also knows all these facts. But if they

> > accept the truth they cannot get the respect from

> > the society as they are getting today. Thats why

> > they are not accepting it. So the caste system

> never

> > originates from the birth. It comes only through

> the

> > Stages and deeds of our life.

> >

> >

> >

> > hindudemocracy <hindudemocracy wrote:

> > There is no caste system by birth or

> even

> > by deeds. Varna is not

> > equivalent to caste. All Vernas are arising from a

> > single Person

> > tnat means every person has all the qualities of 4

> > types a power to

> > think and meditate, strength to fight for truth

> and

> > dharma,earning

> > for sustaining family , service of society. Every

> > person is complete

> > in himself. Keep aside these caste notions. There

> is

> > no caste system

> > in Hinduism and those who follow such notions are

> > going on a wrong

> > track

> >

> > , Suhas Kulhalli

> > <srkulhalli

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Ram,

> > >

> > > In the Bhagwad Gita, Shri Krishna defines the

> four

> > fold division

> > of people types, based on " GunKarma " -(Bhagwad

> Gita

> > 4-13) guna is

> > quality or " nature " of a person and Karma are his

> > actions. Karmas

> > are straightforward to see, since they are

> > manifested actions.

> > >

> > > What results in the formation of " gunas " in a

> > person. ie what

> > are the contributing factors to the " quality " or

> > " nature' of a

> > person. I found a more direct answer in the Udhav

> > Gita, wherein

> > Krishna gives 10 causative factors which result in

> > ones Guna. They

> > are the food one eats, scriptures, people, place,

> > time, work, birth,

> > meditation, Mantra and purificatory rites (Udhav

> > Gita : 8-4). Udhav

> > Gita is the message of Shri Krishna to Udhava,

> like

> > Bhagvad Gita was

> > Shri Krishnas message to Arjuna.

> > >

> > > To answer your question, deed definitely, birth

> > plays a relatively

> > minor role.

> > >

> > > Hari Om,

> > >

> > > Ram Krishna <rkp wrote:

> > > ||Shri Hari||

> > >

> > > Would appreciate comments and views with

> reference

> > to verses of

> > the Gita -

> > > Is the Caste System by Birth or by Deed?

> > >

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> > > from MODERATOR

> > >

> > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk

> > discussions.

> > >

> > > 1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other

> > scriptures to

> > > substantiate the response

> > >

> > > 2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the

> > point. (Up to

> > > twenty line maximum, if possible).

> > >

> > > 3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.

> > >

> > > 4. Please do not include links to other sites or

> > other

> > organizations

> > >

> > > 5. Please do not include your personal

> information

> > such as phone

> > > number, address etc.

> > >

> > > 6. Kindly do not address the response to a

> > particular individual,

> > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > >

> > > MODERATOR

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

[Guest guest]

Namaste, The caste system is too complex a phenomenon to be enumerated in these few lines and my understanding is obviously very incomplete. But such discussions can improve our knowledge. Each of us carries qualities for all the four varnas. However, one of them will be more dominant, and I think it is only right that one must choose one's profession by the dominant "quality" in them. Jaathi(Caste) is not strictly Varnas, but somewhat related, in the sense both are functional divisions of society. Regardless of whether our scriptures justify the caste system or not (mostly no), I think one should try and look at it objectively. In my opinion, though over time the caste system degenerated, there were certain good things about it. For one, they resulted in tightly knit families and a sense of belonging to an extended family. This is one of the great

blessings of India, which like everything else, we will have to loose it before we realise its value. It is instructive to note, that when Arjuna is rationalising his reason for not fighting, he mentions breakdown of the caste system (around 1-40), not because he is worried about the hierarchy, but because he is worried it will result in breakdown of the family structure. People are never perfect, and uptil a time that they reach perfection, there needs to be a some order and harmony in society. Every person will want to belong(country, race, religion ..), and will want his group to sit on the top of the pile. Most systems thus can morph into "us vs them" (eg: Communism, Islam, Christanity) and this more often that not, resulted in the "others" being eliminated in their zones of influence. This may be good for that system in the short run, but not good for the world, people and peace in the long run. Since it is human nature since tribal times, to "group" and fight, I think it was an intellegent move to create fault lines along functional lines. That way the groupings never resulted in bloodshed, as one at the end of the day needs the other "functions" to carry on the work. The ideals were there, Brahmins should sacrifice their identity to uphold the moral fabric, Kshatriyas their lifes to uphold the safety, Vaishyas their money for financial well being and Shudras their time, all for the society. The problem comes when they moved from it being a duty to it being a privilege. Thats for now ! Hari Om hindudemocracy <hindudemocracy wrote: There is no caste system by birth or even by deeds. Varna is not equivalent to caste. All Vernas are arising from a single Person tnat means every person has all the qualities of 4 types a power to think and meditate, strength to fight for truth and dharma,earning for sustaining family , service of society. Every person is complete in himself. Keep aside these caste notions. There is no caste system in Hinduism and those who follow such notions are going on a wrong track , Suhas Kulhalli <srkulhalli wrote:>> Ram,> > In the Bhagwad Gita, Shri Krishna defines the four fold division

of people types, based on "GunKarma" -(Bhagwad Gita 4-13) guna is quality or "nature" of a person and Karma are his actions. Karmas are straightforward to see, since they are manifested actions. > > What results in the formation of "gunas" in a person. ie what are the contributing factors to the "quality" or "nature' of a person. I found a more direct answer in the Udhav Gita, wherein Krishna gives 10 causative factors which result in ones Guna. They are the food one eats, scriptures, people, place, time, work, birth, meditation, Mantra and purificatory rites (Udhav Gita : 8-4). Udhav Gita is the message of Shri Krishna to Udhava, like Bhagvad Gita was Shri Krishnas message to Arjuna.> > To answer your question, deed definitely, birth plays a relatively minor role.> > Hari Om,> > Ram Krishna <rkp wrote:> ||Shri Hari||> > Would appreciate

comments and views with reference to verses of the Gita -> Is the Caste System by Birth or by Deed?> > Ram Ram> > from MODERATOR> > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.> > 1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other scriptures to> substantiate the response> > 2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to> twenty line maximum, if possible).> > 3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.> > 4. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations> > 5. Please do not include your personal information such as phone> number, address etc.> > 6. Kindly do not address the response to a particular individual,> since the message is going to the entire group.> > MODERATOR> Ram Ram>

[Guest guest]

Loving Divine,

Pranam.

In November-December 2006 time frame, we had very good discussion on the same subject, my reply can be found at the following location: /message/598

Thanks.

Humble regards,

always at Thy Lotus Feet

On 3/6/07, Ram Krishna <rkp wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

||Shri Hari||Would appreciate comments and views with reference to verses of the Gita -Is the Caste System by Birth or by Deed?Ram Ramfrom MODERATORThe following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other scriptures tosubstantiate the response2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up totwenty line maximum, if possible).3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.

4. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations5. Please do not include your personal information such as phonenumber, address etc.6. Kindly do not address the response to a particular individual,

since the message is going to the entire group.MODERATORRam Ram

[Guest guest]

Shree Hari Ram Ram Priya Sadhak, prashana ke liye dhanyabad! Many views in detail have been expressed on the subject already. Here is another humble opinion. Swamiji Maharajji has made it very clear this particular subject in Gita Probhodini. The present "caste system" with lapse of time has degenerated from the original "Verna" Ashramas and have lost the original spirit almost to the point where Varna and caste system are difficult to compare in today's setting. The Vernas were created for the convonience of the society to function in a smooth manner. The present caste system does not carry the same respect or ignificanvce as the Verna did. All the vernas were considered equally important, no one particular Verna was considered higher than the

other because they all are needed to have the society function properly. Just like the limbs of the body, all limbs are needed for the body to function properly in a healthy manner. Therefore, equal respect was given to all the Vernas. As a rule, all the things God creates they are done always without any bhed bhava or distinction, but anything man creates has the bhed bhava, the me and mine etc. Lord Krishna says in Gita 4-13, I created the 4 Vernas, In Gita Probhodini (page 107) Swamiji Maharaj says that Verna is by birth and not by Karma, by doing Karma, Verna is protected. Further, in Gita Probhodhini (page 524, 18-41), Swamiji says, whatever action man does, accordingly, the samsakaras are formed in his antah-karana. Each person's swabha or nature is formed with the effects of samsakars from many previous births. Accordingly to his swabha, the satwa, rajas and tamas guna

tendencies are born in him/her. As a result of the tendencies of three gunas, the Varnas were classified into Brahman, Kashatriya, Vaishya and Shudra (Gita 4-13). Then the trendencies of gunas propell the person to undertake the actions accordingly. Ram Ram Humble pranam! A sadhka Ram Krishna <rkp wrote: ||Shri Hari||Would

appreciate comments and views with reference to verses of the Gita -Is the Caste System by Birth or by Deed?Ram Ramfrom MODERATORThe following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other scriptures tosubstantiate the response2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up totwenty line maximum, if possible).3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.4. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations5. Please do not include your personal information such as phonenumber, address etc.6. Kindly do not address the response to a particular individual,since the message is going to the entire group.MODERATORRam Ram

Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debatein the Answers Food Drink Q&A.

[Guest guest]

As a devout Hindu, I am ashamed that of all the great spiritual stuff in Gita, the only thing originator and the participant found of interest was discussing Caste system !!!!! Caste is not a Hindu system, Britsh imposed this word on us becuase they had no word that explains Varna. So called Caste system was created as “ Varna ” which means “to choose” and so it was by your choice and acts and not at all by birth and that was the right way. Varna system when created was

perfect for that society and worked very well in protecting our country and making our society more creative and productive because every one did what he liked / was good at and not what he was forced to do because of him birth. And remember no Varna was looked down upon but some did command more respect than others such as teachers for being selfless and warriors for putting their life on edge to protect others. Later some opportunists changed it to be by Birth as it was advantageous for them and that is where the real downfall of Hindus started as one evil after the other kept creeping in weather it was Caste (Jaati) system (and not Varna), “demanding” dowry or burning the widows etc… and all of those guys found such justification from one scripture or the other similar to the discussion that we are having here. Today’s society works a lot different than those days. We have more than 4 sections in society. Size of the societies has grown up and so are the needs, requirements and services. What will you call a Bank Accountant or a Sales Executive – a Vaishya or a Shudra? It will be absolutely foolhardy to even try to implement Varna (so called Caste) system in today’s society…it will just not work,. Certain systems are created for a specific time and as we move forward they change or become redundant. And it is wise to understand this and let them go rather than finding Scriptural justification in order to hold on to that. Regards Anand ---------

Dear All ! At any given point of time the 'caste factor' as by way of the four main human occupational fundamentals nemely - the Kshatra the people elected Legitiamate Coercive Authority - the Brahma - meaning the Learned and Wise -- the Vyshya meaning those Dealing with Money and Commoditites and the Shudra -- which [going by the root meaning kshut = just for sustenance] means those who are not endowed with any of the talents mentioned above and hence just labour for themselves or choose to serve the other categories in the sense of indirectly serving the causes that those men serve ---Happen to be found in terms of lineages and communities of the above mentioned four fundamental human occupations/endeavours. Caste-system meant a 'good structuring of the the intra-caste that is - intra-occupational learning teaching and

practicing/serving and their inter-caste interactional modes and methods so as to attain the highest degree synergy in the society. It is quite true that the ideal-systematization of the caste issue has never ben a reality - but no time in the Indian historical past - Except as of Now - has caste been 'declared' as any 'redundancy' or social injustice per se ! The crux of the caste-problem is that 'professionalism' has not been adhered to and thus caste has become more a syndrome than a system..... The blame again if on the modern-day Indians who are so foolish as to 'accept and promote the western misreadings' into the caste-factor and in the process have quite successfully done away with the institutions safeguarding the caste-integrity and have got futher goolhardy and audacious enough to seek for a 'casteless Society'... There can never be one - for

even the simplest of human habitats are organied precisely interms of the - governing authority/weapon wielders/manufactures andtradersand a section which doesnt have - at that given point of time the the 'surplus' means beyond their sustenance. So caste has necessarily to be an Organized Professional System of Occupations or else it will not work well.... Both the Individual Self and the Outside Authority are needed to 'Establish a Credible Cast System'........ Our Scriptures - Gita in particular speaks very eloquently on the nuances of the Caste System.... Vedapushpa

---------

I have been reading the comments of various learned people on this subject. What the Lord. said in The Bhagavad Geeta, 4.13 can be construed to mean 'caste' as we know it today. The Puranas are full of stories of great sages who were not brahmin by birth, but became brahmins by virtue of their karma. Similarly, we also have tales of people born brahmin who were not suitable for the caste by virtue of the karma of theirs.

CASTE CAN NEVER BE CLAIMED AS A BIRTHRIGHT. wE HAVE BRAHMINS IN THE DEFENCE FORCES, WHO ARE WAGING WAR, TRAINED FOR WARFARE, AND KSHATRIYAS BY NATURE. SIMILARLY, PEOPLE OF VARIOUS CASTES ARE ENGAGED IN ACTIVITES DIFFERENT FROM THE WORK ASSIGNED TO THE CASTE OF THEIR BITH BY THE PURANAS. IN THIS DAY, TO SAY ONE BELONGS TO SOME CASTE IS WRONG, SINCE CASTE HAS LOST IT'S RELEVANCE.

May we see the light of the Lord's teaching with the relevance of society today, and not on the basis of outmoded traditions.

This is my humble submission. It will not appeal to the tradionalists, but this is the truth prevalent today.

Shivashankar Rajiv.

---------

HELLO ALL,

 

THOSE OF U WHO ARE IN FAVOR OF NO CASTE SYSTEM U R 1OOO % CORRECT. IN THE GITA

WHEN LORD KRSNA WAS TEACHING ARJUN OF ONE'S DUTY IN LIFE, LORD KRSNA SAID THAT EVERYONE IS BORN TO PERFORM A SPECIAL DUTY. LORD KRSNA WENT IN LAY MAN'S TERM BY USING THE HUMAN BODY TO EXPLAIN TO ARJUN. THE HEAD = THE BRAMHINS WHOSE DUTIES WERE TO TEACH THE PEOPLE THE DIFFERENT FORMS OF YOGAS SO THAT THE PART LORD KRSNA GAVE TO U MAY RETURN TO HIM AND THUS PREVENT FURTHER REINCARNATION OF YOUR SOUL.

 

THE ARMS= WARRIORS, KHAS, WHOSE DUTIES WERE TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE, OF WHICH ARJUN WAS A DECENDENT. LORD KRSNA WENT SO FAR AS TO TELL ARJUN, THAT IF U REFUSED TO FIGHT, U WOULD BE LIKE THE SON OF A BRAHMIN WHO REFUSED TO BE A PRIEST.

 

THE BODY= THE MERCHANTS, THE TRADERS

 

THE LEGS = THE LABORER

 

AT NO TIME DURING THE TEACHING OF THE GITA DID LORD KRSNA SAID ONE WAS BETTER THAN THE OTHER. IN OTHER ALL WAS DEPENDENT ON THE OTHER. THE BRAHMINS EXPLOITED THE SYSTEM, WHICH WAS LATER COPIED BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND EXPLOITED TO THE EXTREME CAUSING THE DEATHS OF MILLIONS EVEN IN INDIAN PROVINCES.

 

TODAY IT'S CALLED A SOCIAL SYSTEM--

 

HOPE THIS HELP

---------

caste system in my opinion is a wonderful social arrangement which takes care of the social harmony and individual growth according to her own gunas. birth is one of the easy and nearly sure ways of speculating ones guna. the work in the society is also divided into three gunas and it is very important to assign the right kind of work to the person with matching kind guna. Mr.N.V.Raghuram vkyogas

---------

Seshadri Srinivasan <indianconsumer wrote: dear all,caste system is by birth only as prevalent in society since immemorial time. also family ( read as small caste group) fosters casteism.a kshatrya born in a such a family and brought up in such a way is less likely to act like a brahmin in his adult life..prnaamss.seshadrihindudemocracy <hindudemocracy (AT) (DOT) co.in wrote: There is no caste system by birth or even by deeds. Varna is not equivalent to caste. All Vernas are arising from a single Person tnat means every person has all the qualities of 4 types a power to think and meditate, strength to fight for truth and dharma,earning for sustaining family , service of society. Every person is complete

in himself. Keep aside these caste notions. There is no caste system in Hinduism and those who follow such notions are going on a wrong track , Suhas Kulhalli <srkulhalli wrote:>> Ram,> > In the Bhagwad Gita, Shri Krishna defines the four fold division of people types, based on "GunKarma" -(Bhagwad Gita 4-13) guna is quality or "nature" of a person and Karma are his actions. Karmas are straightforward to see, since they are manifested actions. > > What results in the formation of "gunas" in a person. ie what are the contributing factors to the "quality" or "nature' of a person. I found a more direct answer in the Udhav Gita, wherein Krishna gives 10 causative factors which result in ones Guna. They are the food one eats, scriptures, people, place, time, work, birth,

meditation, Mantra and purificatory rites (Udhav Gita : 8-4). Udhav Gita is the message of Shri Krishna to Udhava, like Bhagvad Gita was Shri Krishnas message to Arjuna.> > To answer your question, deed definitely, birth plays a relatively minor role.> > Hari Om,> > Ram Krishna <rkp wrote:> ||Shri Hari||> > Would appreciate comments and views with reference to verses of the Gita -> Is the Caste System by Birth or by Deed?> > Ram Ram> > from MODERATOR> > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.> > 1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other scriptures to> substantiate the response> > 2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to> twenty line maximum, if possible).> > 3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.> > 4.

Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations> > 5. Please do not include your personal information such as phone> number, address etc.> > 6. Kindly do not address the response to a particular individual,> since the message is going to the entire group.> > MODERATOR> Ram Ram>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sir, the four types of work - pursuit of divinity, governance, business and labour will exist in any system. It will exist in the US, in the UK, in Pakistan, in Sri Lanka, nay even in China! Lord Krishna is beautiful and brilliant beyond imagination and He is beyond the ability of our highly limited intellect and limited mind. Let us please pay respect to Him and not cast Him (God) in bad light.Every cause will have an effect. Every action will bear fruit, good and bad. Every soul has to take multiple births according to its Karmic tendencies. The Hindu religion never said the Brahmins are always superior, in fact it warns that good actions lead to good results and evil actions result in evil results. No politician or king can alter this "cause and effect" situation. An evil brahmana and a good "sudra" will reap evil and good results respectively. A brahmana may be born as a Vaishya and a Vaishya may become a Kshatriya in his/her next birth. Let us not be shallow in our thinking and cast aspersions on the great Hindu Philosophy.There are only two sections of people in this world. They are the good and the godly and the evil and the demoniacal. Good will prevail over evil. Sathyameva Jayathe. The Hindus will survive any type of difficulty because they never harmed anyone and they are

the followers of Ahimsa, Dharma and Sath Karma!Jaya BharathamKrishnanAnand Awasthi <awasthi Sent: Friday, 30 March, 2007 10:14:21 PMRe: Re: Q: Is the Caste System by Birth or by Deed?

 

As a devout Hindu, I am ashamed that of all the great spiritual stuff in Gita, the only thing originator and the participant found of interest was discussing Caste system !!!!! Caste is not a Hindu system, Britsh imposed this word on us becuase they had no word that explains Varna. So called Caste system was created as “ Varna ” which means “to choose” and so it was by your choice and acts and not at all by birth and that was the right way. Varna system when created was

perfect for that society and worked very well in protecting our country and making our society more creative and productive because every one did what he liked / was good at and not what he was forced to do because of him birth. And remember no Varna was looked down upon but some did command more respect than others such as teachers for being selfless and warriors for putting their life on edge to protect others. Later some opportunists changed it to be by Birth as it was advantageous for them and that is where the real downfall of Hindus started as one evil after the other kept creeping in weather it was Caste (Jaati) system (and not Varna),

“demanding” dowry or burning the widows etc… and all of those guys found such justification from one scripture or the other similar to the discussion that we are having here. Today’s society works a lot different than those days. We have more than 4 sections in society. Size of the societies has grown up and so are the needs, requirements and services. What will you call a Bank Accountant or a Sales Executive – a Vaishya or a Shudra? It will be absolutely foolhardy to even try to implement Varna (so called Caste) system in today’s society…it will just not work,. Certain systems are created for a specific time and as we move forward they change or become redundant. And it is wise to understand this and let them go rather than finding Scriptural justification in order to hold on to that. Regards Anand ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

Dear All ! At any given point of time the 'caste factor' as by way of the four main human occupational fundamentals nemely - the Kshatra the people elected Legitiamate Coercive Authority - the Brahma - meaning the Learned and Wise -- the Vyshya meaning those Dealing with Money and Commoditites and the Shudra -- which [going by the root meaning kshut = just for sustenance] means those who are not endowed with any of the talents mentioned above and hence just labour for themselves or choose to serve the other categories in the sense of indirectly serving the causes that those men serve ---Happen to be found in terms of lineages and communities of the above mentioned four fundamental human occupations/ endeavours. Caste-system meant a 'good structuring of the the intra-caste that is - intra-occupational learning teaching and

practicing/serving and their inter-caste interactional modes and methods so as to attain the highest degree synergy in the society. It is quite true that the ideal-systematizati on of the caste issue has never ben a reality - but no time in the Indian historical past - Except as of Now - has caste been 'declared' as any 'redundancy' or social injustice per se ! The crux of the caste-problem is that 'professionalism' has not been adhered to and thus caste has become more a syndrome than a system..... The blame again if on the modern-day Indians who are so foolish as to 'accept and promote the western misreadings' into the caste-factor and in the process have quite successfully done away with the institutions safeguarding the caste-integrity and have got futher goolhardy and audacious enough to seek for a 'casteless Society'... There can never be one - for

even the simplest of human habitats are organied precisely interms of the - governing authority/weapon wielders/manufactur es andtradersand a section which doesnt have - at that given point of time the the 'surplus' means beyond their sustenance. So caste has necessarily to be an Organized Professional System of Occupations or else it will not work well.... Both the Individual Self and the Outside Authority are needed to 'Establish a Credible Cast System'..... ... Our Scriptures - Gita in particular speaks very eloquently on the nuances of the Caste System.... Vedapushpa

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

I have been reading the comments of various learned people on this subject. What the Lord. said in The Bhagavad Geeta, 4.13 can be construed to mean 'caste' as we know it today. The Puranas are full of stories of great sages who were not brahmin by birth, but became brahmins by virtue of their karma. Similarly, we also have tales of people born brahmin who were not suitable for the caste by virtue of the karma of theirs.

CASTE CAN NEVER BE CLAIMED AS A BIRTHRIGHT. wE HAVE BRAHMINS IN THE DEFENCE FORCES, WHO ARE WAGING WAR, TRAINED FOR WARFARE, AND KSHATRIYAS BY NATURE. SIMILARLY, PEOPLE OF VARIOUS CASTES ARE ENGAGED IN ACTIVITES DIFFERENT FROM THE WORK ASSIGNED TO THE CASTE OF THEIR BITH BY THE PURANAS. IN THIS DAY, TO SAY ONE BELONGS TO SOME CASTE IS WRONG, SINCE CASTE HAS LOST IT'S RELEVANCE.

May we see the light of the Lord's teaching with the relevance of society today, and not on the basis of outmoded traditions.

This is my humble submission. It will not appeal to the tradionalists, but this is the truth prevalent today.

Shivashankar Rajiv.

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

HELLO ALL,

THOSE OF U WHO ARE IN FAVOR OF NO CASTE SYSTEM U R 1OOO % CORRECT. IN THE GITA

WHEN LORD KRSNA WAS TEACHING ARJUN OF ONE'S DUTY IN LIFE, LORD KRSNA SAID THAT EVERYONE IS BORN TO PERFORM A SPECIAL DUTY. LORD KRSNA WENT IN LAY MAN'S TERM BY USING THE HUMAN BODY TO EXPLAIN TO ARJUN. THE HEAD = THE BRAMHINS WHOSE DUTIES WERE TO TEACH THE PEOPLE THE DIFFERENT FORMS OF YOGAS SO THAT THE PART LORD KRSNA GAVE TO U MAY RETURN TO HIM AND THUS PREVENT FURTHER REINCARNATION OF YOUR SOUL.

THE ARMS= WARRIORS, KHAS, WHOSE DUTIES WERE TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE, OF WHICH ARJUN WAS A DECENDENT. LORD KRSNA WENT SO FAR AS TO TELL ARJUN, THAT IF U REFUSED TO FIGHT, U WOULD BE LIKE THE SON OF A BRAHMIN WHO REFUSED TO BE A PRIEST.

THE BODY= THE MERCHANTS, THE TRADERS

THE LEGS = THE LABORER

AT NO TIME DURING THE TEACHING OF THE GITA DID LORD KRSNA SAID ONE WAS BETTER THAN THE OTHER. IN OTHER ALL WAS DEPENDENT ON THE OTHER. THE BRAHMINS EXPLOITED THE SYSTEM, WHICH WAS LATER COPIED BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND EXPLOITED TO THE EXTREME CAUSING THE DEATHS OF MILLIONS EVEN IN INDIAN PROVINCES.

TODAY IT'S CALLED A SOCIAL SYSTEM--

HOPE THIS HELP

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

caste system in my opinion is a wonderful social arrangement which takes care of the social harmony and individual growth according to her own gunas. birth is one of the easy and nearly sure ways of speculating ones guna. the work in the society is also divided into three gunas and it is very important to assign the right kind of work to the person with matching kind guna. Mr.N.V.Raghuram vkyogas

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

Seshadri Srinivasan <indianconsumer@ .co. in> wrote: dear all,caste system is by birth only as prevalent in society since immemorial time. also family ( read as small caste group) fosters casteism.a kshatrya born in a such a family and brought up in such a way is less likely to act

like a brahmin in his adult life..prnaamss.seshadrihindudemocracy <hindudemocracy@ .co. in wrote: There is no caste system by birth or even by deeds. Varna is not equivalent to caste. All Vernas are arising from a single Person tnat means every person has all the qualities of 4 types a power to think and meditate, strength to fight for truth and dharma,earning for sustaining family , service of society. Every person is complete

in himself. Keep aside these caste notions. There is no caste system in Hinduism and those who follow such notions are going on a wrong track @grou ps.com, Suhas Kulhalli <srkulhalli@ ...> wrote:>> Ram,> > In the Bhagwad Gita, Shri Krishna defines the four fold division of people types, based on "GunKarma" -(Bhagwad Gita 4-13) guna is quality or "nature" of a person and Karma are his actions. Karmas are straightforward to see, since they are manifested actions. > > What results in the formation of "gunas" in a person. ie what are the contributing factors to the "quality" or "nature' of a person. I found a more direct answer in the Udhav Gita, wherein Krishna gives 10 causative factors which result in ones Guna. They are the food one eats, scriptures, people, place, time,

work, birth,

meditation, Mantra and purificatory rites (Udhav Gita : 8-4). Udhav Gita is the message of Shri Krishna to Udhava, like Bhagvad Gita was Shri Krishnas message to Arjuna.> > To answer your question, deed definitely, birth plays a relatively minor role.> > Hari Om,> > Ram Krishna <rkp wrote:> ||Shri Hari||> > Would appreciate comments and views with reference to verses of the Gita -> Is the Caste System by Birth or by Deed?> > Ram Ram> > from MODERATOR> > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.> > 1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other scriptures to> substantiate the response> > 2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to> twenty line maximum, if possible).> > 3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.> > 4.

Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations> > 5. Please do not include your personal information such as phone> number, address etc.> > 6. Kindly do not address the response to a particular individual,> since the message is going to the entire group.> > MODERATOR> Ram Ram>

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Sadhakas, Namaskar! I am amazed we are still

talking/discussing this subject! Agree with one

Sadhaka; of all the profound ways to liberate

ourselves we are talking at such length about some

topic so incidental. Krishna is telling us we are not

any of these things in reality, not even man or woman,

let alone castes/vernas. They are our roles in the

drama He is playing as us, and we are taking it too

seriously. Let us put this behind and be what we are

really, Consciousness, first. We will be, then, given

wisdom to play our roles unattached and freely.

Let us move on to new learning!

Pratap

 

--- Krishnan Hariharan <hg_krishnan wrote:

 

> Dear Sir, the four types of work - pursuit of

> divinity, governance, business and labour will exist

> in any system. It will exist in the US, in the UK,

> in Pakistan, in Sri Lanka, nay even in China! " I am

> ashamed of all the ... " . What can anyone do if you

> are ashamed? We cannot prevent you from hiding your

> head in the pillow.

>

> Lord Krishna is beautiful and brilliant beyond

> imagination and He is

> beyond the ability of our highly limited intellect

> and sick mind. Let

> us please pay respect to Him and not cast Him (God)

> in bad light.

>

> Every cause will have an effect. Every action will

> bear fruit, good and bad. Every soul has to take

> multiple births according to its Karmic tendencies.

> The Hindu religion never said the Brahmins are

> always superior, in fact it warns that good actions

> lead to good results and evil actions result in evil

> results. No politician or king can alter this " cause

> and effect " situation. An evil brahmana and a good

> " sudra " will reap evil and good results

> respectively. A brahmana may be born as a Vaishya

> and a Vaishya may become a Kshatriya in his/her next

> birth. Let us not be shallow in our thinking and

> cast aspersions on the great Hindu Philosophy.

>

> There are only two sections of people in this world.

> They are the good and the godly and the evil and the

> demoniacal. Good will prevail over evil. Sathyameva

> Jayathe. The Hindus will survive any type of

> difficulty because they never harmed anyone and they

> are the followers of Ahimsa, Dharma and Sath Karma!

>

> Jaya Bharatham

> Krishnan

>

>

> Anand Awasthi <awasthi

>

> Friday, 30 March, 2007 10:14:21 PM

> Re: Re: Q: Is the Caste System

> by Birth or by Deed?

>

> As a devout Hindu, I am ashamed that of all the

> great spiritual stuff in Gita, the only thing

> originator and the participant found of interest was

> discussing Caste system !!!!!

>

> Caste is not a Hindu system, Britsh imposed this

> word on us becuase they had no word that explains

> Varna. So called Caste system was created as “ Varna

> ” which means “to choose” and so it was by your

> choice and acts and not at all by birth and that was

> the right way. Varna system when created was

> perfect for that society and worked very well in

> protecting our country and making our society more

> creative and productive because every one did what

> he liked / was good at and not what he was forced to

> do because of him birth. And remember no Varna was

> looked down upon but some did command more respect

> than others such as teachers for being selfless and

> warriors for putting their life on edge to protect

> others.

>

> Later some opportunists changed it to be by Birth

> as it was advantageous for them and that is where

> the real downfall of Hindus started as one evil

> after the other kept creeping in weather it was

> Caste (Jaati) system (and not Varna), “demanding”

> dowry or burning the widows etc… and all of those

> guys found such justification from one scripture or

> the other similar to the discussion that we are

> having here.

>

> Today’s society works a lot different than those

> days. We have more than 4 sections in society. Size

> of the societies has grown up and so are the needs,

> requirements and services. What will you call a Bank

> Accountant or a Sales Executive – a Vaishya or a

> Shudra? It will be absolutely foolhardy to even try

> to implement Varna (so called Caste) system in

> today’s society…it will just not work,.

>

> Certain systems are created for a specific time

> and as we move forward they change or become

> redundant. And it is wise to understand this and let

> them go rather than finding Scriptural justification

> in order to hold on to that.

>

> Regards

> Anand

>

>

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------

> --------- --------- ---------

>

>

> Dear All !

>

> At any given point of time the 'caste factor'

> as by way of the four main human occupational

> fundamentals nemely - the Kshatra the people elected

> Legitiamate Coercive Authority - the Brahma -

> meaning the Learned and Wise -- the Vyshya meaning

> those Dealing with Money and Commoditites and the

> Shudra -- which [going by the root meaning kshut =

> just for sustenance] means those who are not endowed

> with any of the talents mentioned above and hence

> just labour for themselves or choose to serve the

> other categories in the sense of indirectly serving

> the causes that those men serve ---Happen to be

> found in terms of lineages and communities of the

> above mentioned four fundamental human occupations/

> endeavours.

>

> Caste-system meant a 'good structuring of the

> the intra-caste that is - intra-occupational

> learning teaching and

> practicing/serving and their inter-caste

> interactional modes and methods so as to attain the

> highest degree synergy in the society. It is quite

> true that the ideal-systematizati on of the caste

> issue has never ben a reality - but no time in the

> Indian historical past - Except as of Now - has

> caste been 'declared' as any 'redundancy' or social

> injustice per se !

>

> The crux of the caste-problem is that

> 'professionalism' has not been adhered to and thus

> caste has become more a syndrome than a system.....

> The blame again if on the modern-day Indians who are

> so foolish as to 'accept and promote the western

> misreadings' into the caste-factor and in the

> process have quite successfully done away with the

> institutions safeguarding the caste-integrity and

> have got futher goolhardy and audacious enough to

> seek for a 'casteless Society'... There can never be

> one - for

> even the simplest of human habitats are organied

> precisely interms of the - governing

> authority/weapon wielders/manufactur es

> andtradersand a section which doesnt have - at that

> given point of time the the 'surplus' means beyond

> their sustenance.

>

> So caste has necessarily to be an Organized

> Professional System of Occupations or else it will

> not work well.... Both the Individual Self and the

> Outside Authority are needed to

> 'Establish a Credible Cast System'..... ... Our

> Scriptures - Gita in particular speaks very

> eloquently on the nuances of the Caste System....

>

> Vedapushpa

>

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------

> --------- --------- ---------

>

>

>

> I have been reading the comments of various learned

> people on this subject. What the Lord. said in The

> Bhagavad Geeta, 4.13 can be construed to mean

> 'caste' as we know it today. The Puranas are full of

> stories of great sages who were not brahmin by

> birth, but became brahmins by virtue of their karma.

> Similarly, we also have tales of people born brahmin

> who were not suitable for the caste by virtue of the

> karma of theirs.

>

> CASTE CAN NEVER BE CLAIMED AS A BIRTHRIGHT. wE HAVE

> BRAHMINS IN THE DEFENCE FORCES, WHO ARE WAGING WAR,

> TRAINED FOR WARFARE, AND KSHATRIYAS BY NATURE.

> SIMILARLY, PEOPLE OF VARIOUS CASTES ARE ENGAGED IN

> ACTIVITES DIFFERENT FROM THE WORK ASSIGNED TO THE

> CASTE OF THEIR BITH BY THE PURANAS. IN THIS DAY, TO

> SAY ONE BELONGS TO SOME CASTE IS WRONG, SINCE CASTE

> HAS LOST IT'S RELEVANCE.

>

> May we see the light of the Lord's teaching with

> the relevance of society today, and not on the basis

> of outmoded traditions.

>

> This is my humble submission. It will not appeal to

> the tradionalists, but this is the truth prevalent

> today.

>

> Shivashankar Rajiv.

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------

> --------- --------- ---------

>

> HELLO ALL,

>

> THOSE OF U WHO ARE IN FAVOR OF NO CASTE SYSTEM U R

> 1OOO % CORRECT. IN THE

> GITA

> WHEN LORD KRSNA WAS TEACHING ARJUN OF ONE'S DUTY IN

> LIFE, LORD KRSNA SAID

> THAT EVERYONE IS BORN TO PERFORM A SPECIAL DUTY.

> LORD KRSNA WENT IN LAY

> MAN'S TERM BY USING THE HUMAN BODY TO EXPLAIN TO

> ARJUN. THE HEAD = THE

> BRAMHINS WHOSE DUTIES WERE TO TEACH THE PEOPLE THE

> DIFFERENT FORMS OF YOGAS

> SO THAT THE PART LORD KRSNA GAVE TO U MAY RETURN TO

> HIM AND THUS PREVENT

> FURTHER REINCARNATION OF YOUR SOUL.

>

> THE ARMS= WARRIORS, KHAS, WHOSE DUTIES WERE TO

> PROTECT THE PEOPLE, OF WHICH

> ARJUN WAS A DECENDENT. LORD KRSNA WENT SO FAR AS TO

> TELL ARJUN, THAT IF U

> REFUSED TO FIGHT, U WOULD BE LIKE THE SON OF A

> BRAHMIN WHO REFUSED TO BE A

> PRIEST.

>

> THE BODY= THE MERCHANTS, THE TRADERS

>

> THE LEGS = THE LABORER

>

> AT NO TIME DURING THE TEACHING OF THE GITA DID LORD

> KRSNA SAID ONE WAS

> BETTER THAN THE OTHER. IN OTHER ALL WAS DEPENDENT ON

> THE OTHER. THE BRAHMINS

> EXPLOITED THE SYSTEM, WHICH WAS LATER COPIED BY THE

> CATHOLIC CHURCH AND

> EXPLOITED TO THE EXTREME CAUSING THE DEATHS OF

> MILLIONS EVEN IN INDIAN

> PROVINCES.

>

> TODAY IT'S CALLED A SOCIAL SYSTEM--

>

> HOPE THIS HELP

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------

> --------- --------- ---------

>

>

>

> caste system in my opinion is a wonderful social

> arrangement which takes care of the social harmony

> and individual growth according to her own gunas.

> birth is one of the easy and nearly sure ways of

> speculating ones guna. the work in the society is

> also divided into three gunas and it is very

> important to assign the right kind of work to the

> person with matching kind guna.

> Mr.N.V.Raghuram vkyogas

>

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------

> --------- --------- ---------

>

>

>

>

>

> Seshadri Srinivasan <indianconsumer@ .co. in>

> wrote:

> dear all,

>

> caste system is by birth only as prevalent in

> society since immemorial time. also family ( read

> as small caste group) fosters casteism.

>

> a kshatrya born in a such a family and brought up in

> such a way is less likely to act like a brahmin in

> his adult life..

>

> prnaams

> s.seshadri

>

> hindudemocracy <hindudemocracy@ .co. in wrote:

> There is no caste system by birth or even by

> deeds. Varna is not

> equivalent to caste. All Vernas are arising from a

> single Person

> tnat means every person has all the qualities of 4

> types a power to

> think and meditate, strength to fight for truth and

> dharma,earning

> for sustaining family , service of society. Every

> person is complete

>

> in himself. Keep aside these caste notions. There is

> no caste system

> in Hinduism and those who follow such notions are

> going on a wrong

> track

>

> @grou ps.com, Suhas Kulhalli

> <srkulhalli@ ...>

> wrote:

> >

> > Ram,

> >

> > In the Bhagwad Gita, Shri Krishna defines the four

> fold division

> of people types, based on " GunKarma " -(Bhagwad Gita

> 4-13) guna is

> quality or " nature " of a person and Karma are his

> actions. Karmas

> are straightforward to see, since they are

> manifested actions.

> >

> > What results in the formation of " gunas " in a

> person. ie what

> are the contributing factors to the " quality " or

> " nature' of a

> person. I found a more direct answer in the Udhav

> Gita, wherein

> Krishna gives 10 causative factors which result in

> ones Guna. They

> are the food one eats, scriptures, people, place,

> time, work, birth,

>

> meditation, Mantra and purificatory rites (Udhav

> Gita : 8-4). Udhav

> Gita is the message of Shri Krishna to Udhava, like

> Bhagvad Gita was

> Shri Krishnas message to Arjuna.

> >

> > To answer your question, deed definitely, birth

> plays a relatively

> minor role.

> >

> > Hari Om,

> >

> > Ram Krishna <rkp wrote:

> > ||Shri Hari||

> >

> > Would appreciate comments and views with reference

> to verses of

> the Gita -

> > Is the Caste System by Birth or by Deed?

> >

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > from MODERATOR

> >

> > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk

> discussions.

> >

> > 1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other

> scriptures to

> > substantiate the response

> >

> > 2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the

> point. (Up to

> > twenty line maximum, if possible).

> >

> > 3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.

> >

> > 4. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations

> >

> > 5. Please do not include your personal information

> such as phone number, address etc.

> >

> > 6. Kindly do not address the response to a

> particular individual, since the message is going to the entire group.

> >

> > MODERATOR

> > Ram Ram

[Guest guest]

Dear sadhak, I m seeing this discussion going on for quite long time. I suggest: If we put this much energy to realize the god how beautiful it would be for all of us. Talking bout the matter which doesnt really exist is not the work of a sadhak. sadhak means one who whole heartedly consumed in God. Not in varna vyavastha and others. Nimit matra bhava Savyasachin. Etatbudhwa budhimanasya kritkrtya bhav, Gyat gyatavya,... Ch15. Goodluck Raja.Pratap Bhatt <pratapbhatt wrote: Dear Sadhakas, Namaskar! I am amazed we are stilltalking/discussing this subject! Agree with oneSadhaka; of all the profound ways to liberateourselves we are talking at such length about sometopic so incidental. Krishna is telling us we are notany of these things in reality, not even man or woman,let alone castes/vernas. They are our roles in thedrama He is playing as us, and we are taking it tooseriously. Let us put this behind and be what we arereally, Consciousness, first. We will be, then, givenwisdom to play our roles unattached and freely. Let us move on to new learning!Pratap--- Krishnan Hariharan <hg_krishnan > wrote:> Dear Sir, the four types of work - pursuit of> divinity, governance, business and labour will exist> in any

system. It will exist in the US, in the UK,> in Pakistan, in Sri Lanka, nay even in China! "I am> ashamed of all the ...". What can anyone do if you> are ashamed? We cannot prevent you from hiding your> head in the pillow.> > Lord Krishna is beautiful and brilliant beyond> imagination and He is> beyond the ability of our highly limited intellect> and sick mind. Let> us please pay respect to Him and not cast Him (God)> in bad light.> > Every cause will have an effect. Every action will> bear fruit, good and bad. Every soul has to take> multiple births according to its Karmic tendencies.> The Hindu religion never said the Brahmins are> always superior, in fact it warns that good actions> lead to good results and evil actions result in evil> results. No politician or king can alter this "cause> and effect" situation. An evil brahmana and

a good> "sudra" will reap evil and good results> respectively. A brahmana may be born as a Vaishya> and a Vaishya may become a Kshatriya in his/her next> birth. Let us not be shallow in our thinking and> cast aspersions on the great Hindu Philosophy.> > There are only two sections of people in this world.> They are the good and the godly and the evil and the> demoniacal. Good will prevail over evil. Sathyameva> Jayathe. The Hindus will survive any type of> difficulty because they never harmed anyone and they> are the followers of Ahimsa, Dharma and Sath Karma!> > Jaya Bharatham> Krishnan> > > Anand Awasthi <awasthi >> > Friday, 30 March, 2007 10:14:21

PM> Re: Re: Q: Is the Caste System> by Birth or by Deed?> > As a devout Hindu, I am ashamed that of all the> great spiritual stuff in Gita, the only thing> originator and the participant found of interest was> discussing Caste system !!!!!> > Caste is not a Hindu system, Britsh imposed this> word on us becuase they had no word that explains> Varna. So called Caste system was created as “ Varna> ” which means “to choose” and so it was by your> choice and acts and not at all by birth and that was> the right way. Varna system when created was> perfect for that society and worked very well in> protecting our country and making our society more> creative and productive because every one did what> he liked / was good at and not what he was forced to> do because of him birth. And remember no Varna was> looked down upon

but some did command more respect> than others such as teachers for being selfless and> warriors for putting their life on edge to protect> others.> > Later some opportunists changed it to be by Birth> as it was advantageous for them and that is where> the real downfall of Hindus started as one evil> after the other kept creeping in weather it was> Caste (Jaati) system (and not Varna), “demanding”> dowry or burning the widows etc… and all of those> guys found such justification from one scripture or> the other similar to the discussion that we are> having here.> > Today’s society works a lot different than those> days. We have more than 4 sections in society. Size> of the societies has grown up and so are the needs,> requirements and services. What will you call a Bank> Accountant or a Sales Executive – a Vaishya or a> Shudra? It will

be absolutely foolhardy to even try> to implement Varna (so called Caste) system in> today’s society…it will just not work,.> > Certain systems are created for a specific time> and as we move forward they change or become> redundant. And it is wise to understand this and let> them go rather than finding Scriptural justification> in order to hold on to that.> > Regards> Anand> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------> --------- --------- ---------> > > Dear All !> > At any given point of time the 'caste factor' > as by way of the four main human occupational> fundamentals nemely - the Kshatra the people elected> Legitiamate Coercive Authority - the Brahma -> meaning the Learned and Wise -- the Vyshya meaning> those Dealing with Money and Commoditites and the>

Shudra -- which [going by the root meaning kshut => just for sustenance] means those who are not endowed> with any of the talents mentioned above and hence> just labour for themselves or choose to serve the> other categories in the sense of indirectly serving> the causes that those men serve ---Happen to be> found in terms of lineages and communities of the> above mentioned four fundamental human occupations/> endeavours. > > Caste-system meant a 'good structuring of the> the intra-caste that is - intra-occupational > learning teaching and> practicing/serving and their inter-caste> interactional modes and methods so as to attain the> highest degree synergy in the society. It is quite> true that the ideal-systematizati on of the caste> issue has never ben a reality - but no time in the> Indian historical past - Except as of Now - has> caste

been 'declared' as any 'redundancy' or social> injustice per se ! > > The crux of the caste-problem is that> 'professionalism' has not been adhered to and thus> caste has become more a syndrome than a system.....> The blame again if on the modern-day Indians who are> so foolish as to 'accept and promote the western> misreadings' into the caste-factor and in the> process have quite successfully done away with the> institutions safeguarding the caste-integrity and> have got futher goolhardy and audacious enough to> seek for a 'casteless Society'... There can never be> one - for> even the simplest of human habitats are organied> precisely interms of the - governing> authority/weapon wielders/manufactur es> andtradersand a section which doesnt have - at that> given point of time the the 'surplus' means beyond> their sustenance. > >

So caste has necessarily to be an Organized> Professional System of Occupations or else it will> not work well.... Both the Individual Self and the> Outside Authority are needed to > 'Establish a Credible Cast System'..... ... Our> Scriptures - Gita in particular speaks very> eloquently on the nuances of the Caste System.... > > Vedapushpa > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------> --------- --------- ---------> > > > I have been reading the comments of various learned> people on this subject. What the Lord. said in The> Bhagavad Geeta, 4.13 can be construed to mean> 'caste' as we know it today. The Puranas are full of> stories of great sages who were not brahmin by> birth, but became brahmins by virtue of their karma.> Similarly, we also have tales of people born brahmin> who were not suitable

for the caste by virtue of the> karma of theirs.> > CASTE CAN NEVER BE CLAIMED AS A BIRTHRIGHT. wE HAVE> BRAHMINS IN THE DEFENCE FORCES, WHO ARE WAGING WAR,> TRAINED FOR WARFARE, AND KSHATRIYAS BY NATURE.> SIMILARLY, PEOPLE OF VARIOUS CASTES ARE ENGAGED IN> ACTIVITES DIFFERENT FROM THE WORK ASSIGNED TO THE> CASTE OF THEIR BITH BY THE PURANAS. IN THIS DAY, TO> SAY ONE BELONGS TO SOME CASTE IS WRONG, SINCE CASTE> HAS LOST IT'S RELEVANCE.> > May we see the light of the Lord's teaching with> the relevance of society today, and not on the basis> of outmoded traditions.> > This is my humble submission. It will not appeal to> the tradionalists, but this is the truth prevalent> today.> > Shivashankar Rajiv.> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------> --------- --------- ---------> >

HELLO ALL,> > THOSE OF U WHO ARE IN FAVOR OF NO CASTE SYSTEM U R> 1OOO % CORRECT. IN THE > GITA> WHEN LORD KRSNA WAS TEACHING ARJUN OF ONE'S DUTY IN> LIFE, LORD KRSNA SAID > THAT EVERYONE IS BORN TO PERFORM A SPECIAL DUTY.> LORD KRSNA WENT IN LAY > MAN'S TERM BY USING THE HUMAN BODY TO EXPLAIN TO> ARJUN. THE HEAD = THE > BRAMHINS WHOSE DUTIES WERE TO TEACH THE PEOPLE THE> DIFFERENT FORMS OF YOGAS > SO THAT THE PART LORD KRSNA GAVE TO U MAY RETURN TO> HIM AND THUS PREVENT > FURTHER REINCARNATION OF YOUR SOUL.> > THE ARMS= WARRIORS, KHAS, WHOSE DUTIES WERE TO> PROTECT THE PEOPLE, OF WHICH > ARJUN WAS A DECENDENT. LORD KRSNA WENT SO FAR AS TO> TELL ARJUN, THAT IF U > REFUSED TO FIGHT, U WOULD BE LIKE THE SON OF A> BRAHMIN WHO REFUSED TO BE A > PRIEST.> > THE BODY= THE MERCHANTS, THE TRADERS>

> THE LEGS = THE LABORER> > AT NO TIME DURING THE TEACHING OF THE GITA DID LORD> KRSNA SAID ONE WAS > BETTER THAN THE OTHER. IN OTHER ALL WAS DEPENDENT ON> THE OTHER. THE BRAHMINS > EXPLOITED THE SYSTEM, WHICH WAS LATER COPIED BY THE > CATHOLIC CHURCH AND > EXPLOITED TO THE EXTREME CAUSING THE DEATHS OF> MILLIONS EVEN IN INDIAN > PROVINCES.> > TODAY IT'S CALLED A SOCIAL SYSTEM--> > HOPE THIS HELP> ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------> --------- --------- ---------> > > > caste system in my opinion is a wonderful social> arrangement which takes care of the social harmony> and individual growth according to her own gunas.> birth is one of the easy and nearly sure ways of> speculating ones guna. the work in the society is> also divided into three gunas and it is very>

important to assign the right kind of work to the> person with matching kind guna. > Mr.N.V.Raghuram vkyogas> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------> --------- --------- ---------> > > > > > Seshadri Srinivasan <indianconsumer@ .co. in>> wrote:> dear all,> > caste system is by birth only as prevalent in> society since immemorial time. also family ( read> as small caste group) fosters casteism.> > a kshatrya born in a such a family and brought up in> such a way is less likely to act like a brahmin in> his adult life..> > prnaams> s.seshadri> > hindudemocracy <hindudemocracy@ .co. in wrote: > There is no caste system by birth or even by> deeds. Varna is not > equivalent to caste. All Vernas are arising from a> single Person >

tnat means every person has all the qualities of 4> types a power to > think and meditate, strength to fight for truth and> dharma,earning > for sustaining family , service of society. Every> person is complete> > in himself. Keep aside these caste notions. There is> no caste system > in Hinduism and those who follow such notions are> going on a wrong > track > > @grou ps.com, Suhas Kulhalli> <srkulhalli@ ...> > wrote:> >> > Ram,> > > > In the Bhagwad Gita, Shri Krishna defines the four> fold division > of people types, based on "GunKarma" -(Bhagwad Gita> 4-13) guna is > quality or "nature" of a person and Karma are his> actions. Karmas > are straightforward to see, since they are> manifested actions. > > > > What results in the

formation of "gunas" in a> person. ie what > are the contributing factors to the "quality" or> "nature' of a > person. I found a more direct answer in the Udhav> Gita, wherein > Krishna gives 10 causative factors which result in> ones Guna. They > are the food one eats, scriptures, people, place,> time, work, birth,> > meditation, Mantra and purificatory rites (Udhav> Gita : 8-4). Udhav > Gita is the message of Shri Krishna to Udhava, like> Bhagvad Gita was > Shri Krishnas message to Arjuna.> > > > To answer your question, deed definitely, birth> plays a relatively > minor role.> > > > Hari Om,> > > > Ram Krishna <rkp wrote:> > ||Shri Hari||> > > > Would appreciate comments and views with reference> to verses of > the Gita -> > Is

the Caste System by Birth or by Deed?> > > > Ram Ram> > > > from MODERATOR> > > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk> discussions.> > > > 1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other> scriptures to> > substantiate the response> > > > 2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the> point. (Up to> > twenty line maximum, if possible).> > > > 3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.> > > > 4. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations> > > > 5. Please do not include your personal information> such as phone number, address etc.> > > > 6. Kindly do not address the response to a> particular individual, since the message is going to the entire group.> > > > MODERATOR> > Ram

Ram

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