A Dilemma - What is the Mind's connection to the Atama ?

May 17, 2007

Dear all,

One of the aspirant (SADHAK) asked me a question by saying that the man

commits sin by virtue of his entire body acting on the directions of the

mind (mana) then who is responsible for the sin? As the mind can not take

rebirth, how it can be punished? Atama (soul) is imperishable and get new

body after the present body is destroyed. Whether the same mind will be in

the new body? If not how the same mind will be treated for its sinful act

after ones death or rebirth? I told him that mind is under control of the

soul (Atama).In other words mind is the replica of the soul " I " and any act

done by the mind is act of the soul " I " . As I (soul) never die, only it

changes the body, it has to face the consequences of its deed of the

previous life. The Sadhak is not convinced by my this logic. Now I am also

confused. Please guide me how can I satisfy the Sadhak?

Regards,

Sant Shree Hari

Ram Ram

from MODERATOR

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Ram Ram

May 19, 2007

Dear one,

It is my humble attempt to answer very complex Q, as far as I

understood I shall explain u.

Mind is not soul, but it evolved from soul, soul is imperishable but

mind is not. Mind can attract impurities, but soul remains pure. Soul

(self) is non-doer. It only experience, it does not act, only mind

acts according to qualities acquired from nature (GITA).

No longer soul has control over mind, if it is we would not be in

illusion, mind has taken over soul from ages.

A part of mind basically consist of samskaras (impressions) which

prompts activity, this part goes with us after death. It is also

called sub-conscious sometimes. Thinking mind, active mind does not

go after death, they have no connection with soul.

The idea of reward or punishment is relative to mind. The

general term is fruit, which we r bound to get once we do some act, if

we r unable to get fruit in these birth, we have to take rebirth to

accept the fruit of our actions. That is our mind which further

classifies this fruit as good or bad etc.

Lord declares that it is very difficult to understand the mystery of

action, so it is better not to think very deep in to these complex

subjects. It is science, which need to be learned properly, under

guidance. Modern science also deals to some extent about these

subjects like psychology, physiology etc.

hope it will help

Vipin

--\

-

There are four forms of the body. These are " Sthool Sharir " , " Sukshma Sharir " ,

" Karan Sharir " and then finally " Atma " . Every subsequent form is Sukshma

compared to the earlier one. Mind is the Sukshma Sharir. This form is not made

of Panch Tattva. This is made of only air. Death is the separation of Sukshma

Sharir from Sthool Sharir. All our Karmas get Sanchit into the Mind, because we

feel that I am the Karta. This mind is the one that transends from body to body

in the circle of death and rebirth. If we are able to separate our identity from

the mind by making it completely surrender in the lotus feet of God

(Sharnagati), then there is no scope for the cycle to continue.

This topic is a very interesting topic and can be elaborated at great length.

But I am refraining from doing the same in the hope that you will get more

clarity by doing Nidhidhyasan on this. If after trying hard for sometime, you

are not able to get clarity, please feel free to ask me.

A.H.Dalmia

, Sant Shree Hari <SantShreeHari

wrote:

>

> Dear all,

>

> One of the aspirant (SADHAK) asked me a question by saying that the man

> commits sin by virtue of his entire body acting on the directions of the

> mind (mana) then who is responsible for the sin? As the mind can not

take

> rebirth, how it can be punished? Atama (soul) is imperishable and

get new

> body after the present body is destroyed. Whether the same mind will

be in

> the new body? If not how the same mind will be treated for its

sinful act

> after ones death or rebirth? I told him that mind is under control

of the

> soul (Atama).In other words mind is the replica of the soul " I " and

any act

> done by the mind is act of the soul " I " . As I (soul) never die, only it

> changes the body, it has to face the consequences of its deed of the

> previous life. The Sadhak is not convinced by my this logic. Now I

am also

> confused. Please guide me how can I satisfy the Sadhak?

>

> Regards,

>

> Sant Shree Hari

>

> Ram Ram

> from MODERATOR

> The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

> 1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other scriptures to

> substantiate the response

> 2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to

> twenty line maximum, if possible).

> 3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.

> 4. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations

> 5. Please do not include your personal information such as phone

> number, address etc.

> 6. Kindly do not address the response to a particular individual,

> since the message is going to the entire group.

> 7. Due to a large readership, not all responses will be posted.

> 8. Moderator may modify the message before posting when content is

not clear.

> MODERATOR

> Ram Ram

>

May 19, 2007

Thank you for the responses, however I am still unclear. Whether the same mind, which had prompted to do good or bad acts will be in the new body acquired by the soul? If not then who will get the fruit of the deeds of mind after death (heaven/hell) or after rebirth when the soul will change the new body like cloths?

Of course the body will be destroyed. Body can not get the fruit. Ultimately the soul has to bear the fruit. If not then who will get the fruit and how?

I am still confused. Regards,

Sant Shree Hari

----------

Dear Sadhaka, Namaste!

When one investigates Atman described in scriptures, one may find that it is the self evident feeling of Existence I AM in us! This is also Witnessing Presence within us. In its presence only mind-body organism experience this world. Atman is pure light in which everything shines. But mind-stuff-Antahkaran(intellect, ego, memory) which constitute subtle body conditioned by gunas and environment, thinks it is a separate independent entity and thus acts as if it is the Doer of karmas. This doer which is in fact only a mind based identity(I-thought in mind and I-feelings in body) accumulates karma-falas in ignorance of Atman being its only reality! Atman witnesses actions performed by an apparant person, the results of which obtained according to laws of nature! Nothing is personal about this doer. So if before the death this person does not know he/she is Atman, obviously the subtle body assumes another body to continue on and on as an individual until he/she realizes his/her reality being that which is free of birth and death, the Existence Absolute, Never not Existing and all Intelligence, Pure Consciousness, Impersonal and Limitless in nature!

When mind realizes its reality being such, it resolves into its source Atman and only the practical functional aspect of mind remains until body's death, and the person is known as Jivan Mukta.

To sum up, the body appears in mind as perceptions of feelings and thoughts, and mind in turn appears in Atman as subtle antahkaran having no reality of its own but assumes it is the doer in ignorance and goes thru cycle of birth and death until...........!

Saadar Pranam... Pratap

, Sant Shree Hari <SantShreeHari wrote:>> Dear all,> > One of the aspirant (SADHAK) asked me a question by saying that the man> commits sin by virtue of his entire body acting on the directions of the> mind (mana) then who is responsible for the sin? As the mind can not take> rebirth, how it can be punished? Atama (soul) is imperishable and get new> body after the present body is destroyed. Whether the same mind will be in> the new body? If not how the same mind will be treated for its sinful act> after ones death or rebirth? I told him that mind is under control of the> soul (Atama).In other words mind is the replica of the soul "I" and any act> done by the mind is act of the soul "I". As I (soul) never die, only it> changes the body, it has to face the consequences of its deed of the> previous life. The Sadhak is not convinced by my this logic. Now I am also> confused. Please guide me how can I satisfy the Sadhak?> > Regards,> > Sant Shree Hari> > Ram Ram > from MODERATOR> The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.> 1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other scriptures to > substantiate the response> 2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to> twenty line maximum, if possible).> 3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.> 4. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations> 5. Please do not include your personal information such as phone> number, address etc.> 6. Kindly do not address the response to a particular individual,> since the message is going to the entire group.> 7. Due to a large readership, not all responses will be posted.> 8. Moderator may modify the message before posting when content is not clear. > MODERATOR> Ram Ram>

May 20, 2007

Dear Sadhaka, Namaste!

Question is asked for clarification whether it is the

same mind that remains when soul acquires a new

body-mind. ( ref: explanaton given earlier).

It is the same mind-stuff, yes! By mind-stuff is meant

subtle body(sukshma Sharira) which goes along with all

conditioning(papas/punyas/unfulfilled desires, fears)

acquired during the life lived by a person in

ignorance* of its true indentity. This subtle body

becomes, so to speak, new body's sukshama sharira in

turn. Thus cycle of birth and death continues in

suffering until person realizes his/her true identity

being Atman in some human birth and thus liberated. At

death of such an apparant person subtle body-mind

still may take birth in a new body but it is free of

suffering and engaged generally in liberation of other

lives that crosses his/her path.

Namaskar.... pratap

*Ignorance is that person calls this subtle body-mind

as him/her during the life assuming doership of

karmas.

The subtle body is in fact a mere appearance in Atman

like a cloud in the sky of Atman.

This subtle body-mind-stuff may be referred to as Soul

who undergoes the cycle of birth and death. And

sometimes is referred to as pure soul which is Atman.

Soul is not a proper translation of Atman which is

pure existence-consciousness-bliss.

Thanks.. Pratap

----------

What I read into your message - " Mind goes through rebirth until it realizes

Atma as the Self and is not deluded by ego and perceptions thereafter. " Is this

correct?

Hemendra Parikh

----------

Let me give you another lead. As I said there are 4 bodies (Sharir). Take that

as an example in Bulb, Wires, Switch and Electricity. Bulb in the example, is

the Sthool Sharir (Gross Body, which has a name such as A.H.Dalmia). Wires are

the Sookshma Sharir (Subtle Body, the mind). Switch is the Karan Sharir. Finally

Electricity is the Atma. You will kindly see that without the electricity all

the other three can not perform any function.

To give you a straight answer, it is the mind that goes from death to birth in

various bodies. Here I would like to clarify that it is the " Kartritva Abhiman "

that is the real reason for " Karma Phal " .

A.H.Dalmia

--- pratapbhatt <pratapbhatt wrote:

> Dear Sadhaka, Namaste!

>

> When one investigates Atman described in scriptures,

> one may find that

> it is the self evident feeling of Existence I AM in

> us! This is also

> Witnessing Presence within us. In its presence only

> mind-body organism

> experience this world. Atman is pure light in which

> everything shines.

> But mind-stuff-Antahkaran(intellect, ego, memory)

> which constitute

> subtle body conditioned by gunas and environment,

> thinks it is a

> separate independent entity and thus acts as if it

> is the Doer of

> karmas. This doer which is in fact only a mind based

> identity(I-thought

> in mind and I-feelings in body) accumulates

> karma-falas in ignorance of

> Atman being its only reality! Atman witnesses

> actions performed by an

> apparant person, the results of which obtained

> according to laws of

> nature! Nothing is personal about this doer. So if

> before the death this

> person does not know he/she is Atman, obviously the

> subtle body assumes

> another body to continue on and on as an individual

> until he/she

> realizes his/her reality being that which is free of

> birth and death,

> the Existence Absolute, Never not Existing and all

> Intelligence, Pure

> Consciousness, Impersonal and Limitless in nature!

>

> When mind realizes its reality being such, it

> resolves into its source

> Atman and only the practical functional aspect of

> mind remains until

> body's death, and the person is known as Jivan

> Mukta.

>

> To sum up, the body appears in mind as perceptions

> of feelings and

> thoughts, and mind in turn appears in Atman as

> subtle antahkaran having

> no reality of its own but assumes it is the doer in

> ignorance and goes

> thru cycle of birth and death until...........!

>

> Saadar Pranam... Pratap

>

> , Sant Shree Hari

> <SantShreeHari

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear all,

> >

> > One of the aspirant (SADHAK) asked me a question

> by saying that the

> man

> > commits sin by virtue of his entire body acting on

> the directions of

> the

> > mind (mana) then who is responsible for the sin?

> As the mind can not

> take

> > rebirth, how it can be punished? Atama (soul) is

> imperishable and get

> new

> > body after the present body is destroyed. Whether

> the same mind will

> be in

> > the new body? If not how the same mind will be

> treated for its sinful

> act

> > after ones death or rebirth? I told him that mind

> is under control of

> the

> > soul (Atama).In other words mind is the replica of

> the soul " I " and

> any act

> > done by the mind is act of the soul " I " . As I

> (soul) never die, only

> it

> > changes the body, it has to face the consequences

> of its deed of the

> > previous life. The Sadhak is not convinced by my

> this logic. Now I am

> also

> > confused. Please guide me how can I satisfy the

> Sadhak?

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Sant Shree Hari

> >

> > Ram Ram

> > from MODERATOR

> > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk

> discussions.

> > 1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other

> scriptures to

> > substantiate the response

> > 2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the

> point. (Up to

> > twenty line maximum, if possible).

> > 3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.

> > 4. Please do not include links to other sites or

> other organizations

> > 5. Please do not include your personal information

> such as phone

> > number, address etc.

> > 6. Kindly do not address the response to a

> particular individual,

> > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > 7. Due to a large readership, not all responses

> will be posted.

> > 8. Moderator may modify the message before posting

> when content is not

> clear.

> > MODERATOR

> > Ram Ram

> >

>

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May 22, 2007

Human body is dress of a soul. When a soul takes rebirth by entering into a new womb, all that changes is the body and the soul remains the same. The process can be easily compared to a process in our daily of changing clothes. We are same no matter what kind, color of clothes we wear. Only our appearance changes. A person with lot of intellectual knowledge like Vishwamitra, Maharishi Vyas, they used to recognized the person's soul not the outside appearance of the human body.

----------

Dear Sadhaka, Namaste!

Soul/mind enters the womb to take rebirth doesn't mean

soul is something that enters a physical womb like a

stick enters a jug.

It means Atman which is like a light ever shining

everything and nothing and in which a

body-mind-sense-intellect complex(subtle body)

manifests. The mixture of such body and Atman creates

a center which is illusory Ego/soul/mind/Jiva assuming

reality borrowed from Atman light, considers itself as

person, individual. In Atman light which is undivided

all such illusory persons appear to take births and

dying. It is important to note the light is not

responsible for sins commited by such illusory persons

taking him/her to be real. it is this

ignorance-doership on his/her part that commits

karma/sins/punyas in its limited free will.

Love Divine... Pratap

----------

Prabhuji,

First of all I want to clarify that Atma is not in the body, but body is in Atma. You may like to recall the example of "Ghatakash". It looks that Akash is in the pot and the same merges with the Akash outside when the pot breaks. Atma is Omni Present, which "Mind" (Sookshma Sharir) is not. Hence it is not right to say that soul (Atma) takes re-birth. Atma is "PURE CONCIOUSNESS" or "GYAN" ( remember Pragyanam Brahma, Ayam Atma Brahma). Hence there is no question of Atma taking rebirth. Please remember that the main reason for the death and birth cycle is kartritva abhiman, which leaves imprint in the mind. That is why Lord has ordered to do the karma without attachment. Please for goodness sake do not confuse between Atma and Mind. They are separate entities. "Atm" is only the "Drashta" and "Mind" is the "Karta". Hence, there can be no suffering in Atma.

A.H.Dalmia