Suggestions on Non-secterian, Universal Application for Westerners

[Guest guest]

I have trying to mold my life more in the mold of the Uddhava Gita as a first

step and then building on the " harder " teachings of the

Bhagavad Gita. As a non-Hindu Westerner without religious affiliation

like myself, it is hard to start off with the 4 " traditional "

regulative principles of Gaudiya Vaishnava of vegetarianism, no

alcohol, no gambling, no illicit sex outside of marriage, etc... I am

already doing 3 of the 4 - still struggling with vegetarianism,

partially as I live in a semi-rural area where that can be more

difficult as it is difficult and expensive to get a well-balanced and

varied vegetarian diet.

 

A hard-nose approach to the regulative principles sort of drives off and

discourages people who may be interested in the universal message of the Gita.

It is also possible that I am not really suited for Krishna bhakti, but perhaps

may be suited for a different deity for bhakti or a nonsectarian, universal

bhakti. Any suggestions or direction would be welcomed!

 

I have been trying to take the approach of the Uddhava Gita in a

nonsectarian manner so often I chant " Be One. Be Love. Be Peace. "

which I associate with satchitananda and Brahman - this seems to be

an easy practice to bring to people unfamiliar with Hinduism.

 

I have been sharing that information along with links to the

International Gita Society on online discussions and Answers.

Hopefully it will plant seeds in some people as I think it is an

important universal spiritual teaching. Most of our devotions are nonsectarian

as it does not seem right to do Krishna puja until or unless I have transitioned

to a vegetarian diet. Suggestions on path directions, anyone?

 

Also, any thoughts or suggestions for working with Westerners and

incorporating nonsectarian, universal applications would be

appreciated.

 

In peace and Namaste,

 

Dave

------

Gita Talk Guidelines

 

FROM THE MODERATOR

 

The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

 

1. Purpose of the group is to help Spiritual Aspirants to clarify their doubts

related to Gita verses. For responses to be posted, they must further clarify

the understanding of Gitaji.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate

the response

3. Please limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc.

4. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to twenty line

maximum, if possible).

5. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.

6. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations

7. Please do not include your personal information such as phone number, address

etc.

8. Kindly do not address the response to a particular individual, since the

message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to a large readership, not all responses will be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear

or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration novices, youth, westerners,

non-secterian audience. Please limit the use on only sanskrit words, and

provide the english word with sanskrit bracketed wherever possible.

[Guest guest]

Hi Dave,Many of us are well-exposed to the West having studied there, lived there, or living there. So do feel free to ask probing and specific questions as answers by group members will benefit all of us, because even in India, we are increasingly struggling with Western lifestyle influences on Indian 'values'.Some random thoughts of what I have found useful:a) understanding the value and necessity to move from 'tamsik' to 'rajsik' to 'saatvik' in all spheres of one's activitiesb) "bhaav" - or intent - is the key that leads to right actionc) trying to catch something 'higher' instead of struggling to stop or let go of something 'lower'd) 'sharnaagati' - no fear, regret, worry, or doubtSo embracing vegetarianism as the right intent as it is more saatvik without worrying about balanced diet may make the process easier.Secondly, personally, I think, that while being vegetarian is desirable, but not being vegetarian should certainly not be made a mental obstacle for Krishna Puja. Maybe Krishna Puja will make you a vegetarian earlier and in an easier way.Hope this helpsRam RamVinay- David Salyers Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:45 PM Suggestions on Non-secterian, Universal Application for WesternersI have trying to mold my life more in the mold of the Uddhava Gita as a first step and then building on the "harder" teachings of the Bhagavad Gita. As a non-Hindu Westerner without religious affiliation like myself, it is hard to start off with the 4 "traditional" regulative principles of Gaudiya Vaishnava of vegetarianism, no alcohol, no gambling, no illicit sex outside of marriage, etc... I am already doing 3 of the 4 - still struggling with vegetarianism, partially as I live in a semi-rural area where that can be more difficult as it is difficult and expensive to get a well-balanced and varied vegetarian diet.A hard-nose approach to the regulative principles sort of drives off and discourages people who may be interested in the universal message of the Gita. It is also possible that I am not really suited for Krishna bhakti, but perhaps may be suited for a different deity for bhakti or a nonsectarian, universal bhakti. Any suggestions or direction would be welcomed!I have been trying to take the approach of the Uddhava Gita in a nonsectarian manner so often I chant "Be One. Be Love. Be Peace." which I associate with satchitananda and Brahman - this seems to bean easy practice to bring to people unfamiliar with Hinduism.I have been sharing that information along with links to the International Gita Society on online discussions and Answers. Hopefully it will plant seeds in some people as I think it is an important universal spiritual teaching. Most of our devotions are nonsectarian as it does not seem right to do Krishna puja until or unless I have transitioned to a vegetarian diet. Suggestions on path directions, anyone?Also, any thoughts or suggestions for working with Westerners and incorporating nonsectarian, universal applications would be appreciated.In peace and Namaste,Dave

[Guest guest]

Dear Dave,

 

Please rest assured that there is only one GOD. There is no separate God for Hindus, or Muslims and or Christians. All believe that God is all powerful. If we all accept that principle, then the question arises if your God was different from mine then at sometime there could be a difference of opinion in Gods that could lead to rift among them. If there is a rift, there could be fight. If there was a fight, then someone will win. If someone will win then there can be no two gods.

 

Also, God is capable of taking any form. If my God can take the form only of Lord Krishna, he will have limitations. We don't accept that. Hence as a rule God takes the form in which he is remembered. What is important is that you give him a name and form and also enter into a relationship with him. This relationship could be that of Master and Servant, Friend, Brother etc. My suggestion is that the Lord of the Universe rightly is the Master of Universe and hence that relationship is normally best suited. Then give him your time. This time is given by chanting his name. Please ensure that you REMEMBER him while chanting his name. At that time, you should avoid any worldly thoughts coming in your mind.

 

Now coming to your question of Vegetarianism. It is important to understand that god is kind. Hence, to be loved by him, we too must practice kindness. If we do that, it will automatically become difficult for us to eat non vegetarian food. May I suggest that if you are finding it so difficult to eat vegetarian food, make it a point to kill the animal yourself to eat it. I am sure you will very quickly develop aversion for same. Vegetarian diet can be well balanced if you drink a lot of milf and eat/drink milk products. For variation in diet, may I suggest that you please buy some cookery books with vegetarian diet and try your hand at preparing some dishes. With time, this should hopefully solve your problem of varied diet.

 

A.H.Dalmia

 

 

 

-

David Salyers

Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:45 PM

Suggestions on Non-secterian, Universal Application for Westerners

 

 

I have trying to mold my life more in the mold of the Uddhava Gita as a first step and then building on the "harder" teachings of theBhagavad Gita. As a non-Hindu Westerner without religious affiliationlike myself, it is hard to start off with the 4 "traditional"regulative principles of Gaudiya Vaishnava of vegetarianism, noalcohol, no gambling, no illicit sex outside of marriage, etc... I amalready doing 3 of the 4 - still struggling with vegetarianism,partially as I live in a semi-rural area where that can be moredifficult as it is difficult and expensive to get a well-balanced andvaried vegetarian diet.A hard-nose approach to the regulative principles sort of drives off and discourages people who may be interested in the universal message of the Gita. It is also possible that I am not really suited for Krishna bhakti, but perhaps may be suited for a different deity for bhakti or a nonsectarian, universal bhakti. Any suggestions or direction would be welcomed!I have been trying to take the approach of the Uddhava Gita in anonsectarian manner so often I chant "Be One. Be Love. Be Peace."which I associate with satchitananda and Brahman - this seems to bean easy practice to bring to people unfamiliar with Hinduism.I have been sharing that information along with links to theInternational Gita Society on online discussions and Answers.Hopefully it will plant seeds in some people as I think it is animportant universal spiritual teaching. Most of our devotions are nonsectarian as it does not seem right to do Krishna puja until or unless I have transitioned to a vegetarian diet. Suggestions on path directions, anyone?Also, any thoughts or suggestions for working with Westerners andincorporating nonsectarian, universal applications would beappreciated.In peace and Namaste,Dave------------------------- Gita Talk GuidelinesFROM THE MODERATORThe following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.1. Purpose of the group is to help Spiritual Aspirants to clarify their doubts related to Gita verses. For responses to be posted, they must further clarify the understanding of Gitaji.2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate the response3. Please limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc.4. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to twenty line maximum, if possible).5. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.6. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations7. Please do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc.8. Kindly do not address the response to a particular individual, since the message is going to the entire group.9. Due to a large readership, not all responses will be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.11. Please respond taking into consideration novices, youth, westerners, non-secterian audience. Please limit the use on only sanskrit words, and provide the english word with sanskrit bracketed wherever possible.

[Guest guest]

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

One may discover that the teaching of Bhagwat Geeta is

non-sectarian, universal in its appeal, and applicable

to all times anywhere. This requires one to understand

Krishna is the Impersonal Consciousness which is all

intelligence, speaking to us directly. Realization of

one's true identity is what is being talked about

there.

Under the guise of war, parties are fighting based on

ignorance of clinging on to what they thought were

" me " , " mine " , " us " versus " them " . Every character is

taking him/her to be separate individual, whose

interests are in conflict with others.

Krishna(Absolute Being-Consciousness) as One Reality

of us all, is straightening out us by telling us that

we are Atman-Consciousness-existence-bliss and full in

ourselves as we are, never bound by Karmas, never

doers of our deeds! Our body-mind are the instruments,

and we are the masters. Collectively, all sentients

and insentients are infinite consciousness, and that

we ARE, not a petty little person.

SO, with open mind , Geeta can be a way to ultimate salvation!

This can be pursued further once we become interested in

truth of " who and what am I? " till is becomes our only quest, only pursuit.

Namaskaras.....Lovingly Pratap

--- David Salyers <salyed wrote:

 

> I have trying to mold my life more in the mold of

> the Uddhava Gita as a first step and then building

> on the " harder " teachings of the

> Bhagavad Gita. As a non-Hindu Westerner without

> religious affiliation

> like myself, it is hard to start off with the 4

> " traditional "

> regulative principles of Gaudiya Vaishnava of

> vegetarianism, no

> alcohol, no gambling, no illicit sex outside of

> marriage, etc... I am

> already doing 3 of the 4 - still struggling with

> vegetarianism,

> partially as I live in a semi-rural area where that

> can be more

> difficult as it is difficult and expensive to get a

> well-balanced and

> varied vegetarian diet.

>

> A hard-nose approach to the regulative principles

> sort of drives off and discourages people who may be

> interested in the universal message of the Gita. It

> is also possible that I am not really suited for

> Krishna bhakti, but perhaps may be suited for a

> different deity for bhakti or a nonsectarian,

> universal bhakti. Any suggestions or direction would

> be welcomed!

>

> I have been trying to take the approach of the

> Uddhava Gita in a

> nonsectarian manner so often I chant " Be One. Be

> Love. Be Peace. "

> which I associate with satchitananda and Brahman -

> this seems to be

> an easy practice to bring to people unfamiliar with

> Hinduism.

>

> I have been sharing that information along with

> links to the

> International Gita Society on online discussions and

> Answers.

> Hopefully it will plant seeds in some people as I

> think it is an

> important universal spiritual teaching. Most of our

> devotions are nonsectarian as it does not seem right

> to do Krishna puja until or unless I have

> transitioned to a vegetarian diet. Suggestions on

> path directions, anyone?

>

> Also, any thoughts or suggestions for working with

> Westerners and

> incorporating nonsectarian, universal applications

> would be

> appreciated.

>

> In peace and Namaste,

>

> Dave

>

------

> Gita Talk Guidelines

>

> FROM THE MODERATOR

>

> The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk

> discussions.

>

> 1. Purpose of the group is to help Spiritual

> Aspirants to clarify their doubts related to Gita

> verses. For responses to be posted, they must

> further clarify the understanding of Gitaji.

> 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other

> scriptures to substantiate the response

> 3. Please limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs

> etc.

> 4. Kindly make your responses concise and to the

> point. (Up to twenty line maximum, if possible).

> 5. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.

> 6. Please do not include links to other sites or

> other organizations

> 7. Please do not include your personal information

> such as phone number, address etc.

> 8. Kindly do not address the response to a

> particular individual, since the message is going to

> the entire group.

> 9. Due to a large readership, not all responses will

> be posted.

> 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the

> posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate

> for distribution to the group.

> 11. Please respond taking into consideration

> novices, youth, westerners, non-secterian audience.

> Please limit the use on only sanskrit words, and

> provide the english word with sanskrit bracketed

> wherever possible.

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends,

Dave has raised some very important points, which are important not only for Western humans but all of us.

In my opinion, it is important to keep in mind the incomprehensible nature of God, while worshipping in any form. We are free to assume God in any form; 'Krishna' or Sachhidananda' or " Brahman " as long as we keep in mind that Krishna, Sachhidananda (Existence, Consciousness and Bliss Absolute) or Brahman is much much more than what we imagine God to be. Sages have said even the Munis can not comprehend the real nature of Lord. But our of love and compassion and infinite intelligence, Lord accepts our prayers despite it's limitations.

Swami ji has also said that God as Schhidananda too is not what we meant by Sachhidananda, we use the term Sacchidananda because that terms is the only term in our language which can point out towards that, but real nature of God is beyond whatever we will imagine sachhidananda to be.

 

Like a child may not know the real nature, or all aspects of lives of child's parents, but parents nevertheless responds fully to child's cries.

Regarding vegetarianism, as have said by friends earlier, it is the intention which matters most. Non vegetarian diet is not desired but it is not an obstacle in bhakti. a bhakta who has surrendered fully to God, God himself sees that slowly the person will find one's dietary habits and circumstances changing.

Namaste.

--------

 

From Manjula Patel

Loving Divine,

Pranam.

In BG 3:6 Lord is clarifying that those who abstain from the object of the

sense pleasures but constantly think about them are hypocrites, they can

never attain God He is saying that one has to renounce it inwardly. Can we

really say that people who live closer to north pole can not attain God

because they have to survive eating meat? Can we really say that only

vegetarians have right over God and only they can attain God? No, both will

be proven wrong. Chopping the head of a cabbage or cauliflower or any other

vegetable is equally sinful because the same God resides in all of them.

Even scientifically it is proven that those who are violent - uprooting misbehaving with plants, when such person comes near plants they tremble out

of fear!!! The only thing is while cutting veggies we don't see red blood

flowing out of them so it doesn't look that fearful or guilt producing

sight. Their torture is not visible to us so we don't feel their

sufferings or dying and that's why we think veggies are ok to kill but

animals are not. The entire shrusti operates on a law of survival, so one

has to eat what is available to them.

 

Further evaluation shows that a lion has no choice but to eat meat and dear

has no choice but to eat grass, however, human beings have choice. We need

to analyze our own mental state - are we killing birds and animals to

satisfy our tongue or is it really a question of survival (where we have no

choice but to eat what is available)? Baba says, if you have a choice,

choose the food that is less harmful to your spiritual practices but if

there is no choice take whatever is available with the prayerful attitude.

For example, meat takes 6 - 8 hrs to digest compared to veggies 2 - 4 hrs,

so, if we have to practice some yoga -pranayams - name chanting, guess which

one would be a hurdle? Meat of course because with heavy stomach we can not

practice any of it. Have faith in God to lead us to the right food for our

spiritual evolution and He will manage it.

 

I personally do believe that the food has impact on our thoughts and

behaviour. Even in veggies, some make you drowsy (taamsic) and

some restless (raajasic). Lord Krishna addresses this in BG 17:8-10.

 

Now a test for you all: Would you call milk coming from

cows/buffalo/goat/ship/camel a veg or non-veg? Would you call honey

collected by bees, a veg or non-veg? would you call fermented food (yogart,

khaman-dhokala, etc.) veg or non-veg?

 

Humble regards,

always at Thy Holy Feet

----

hi, listers:

I have enjoyed and appreciated some of the insightful comments on this list. About vegetarianism, I know there is a lot of fear of the unknown, and many psychological obstacles against vegetables instead of meat. It's culture and custom.

 

.. But in the "gita", is there no place for common sense and good judgment; i.e., the compelling force of rational thinking? For example, I am compelled to accept the good sense of eating more vegetables because it is objectively more sensible. You get less cancer-causing toxins, less diabites, lower cholesterol; more energy, more bulk with less calories - and what's more, you can develop some very tasty, flavorfull meals - even better than ordinary meat dishes.

 

In India, I ate vegetarian, because that was the restaurante I found closest. But in eating it, I found I really enjoyed it alot more than I thought. I ate it for the taste and conveience, nothing more. The spices contributed a lot, as it does with any food. Back in US, I get meat thrown in my way a lot, because that's the life-style. Now, I find that meat or vegetables, its the spice and flavor that makes the difference. The western mind has a prejudice that only meat can taste good. With experience of tasty vegetarian meals, your common sense will do the rest, I think. But study and learning about health issues is often something that comes only after much harm is done to the physical body.

 

Lee

----

Dear A.H. Dalmia,

When one says "There is only one GOD," and correlates this with "He," one must be able to prove such a statement. True Hindus do not worship "GOD" anymore than a true Christian worships Siva, or Vishnu or Devi.

 

Swami Param

----

Ref. "One may discover that the teaching of Bhagwat Geeta is

non-sectarian, universal in its appeal, and applicable

to all times anywhere. This requires one to understand

Krishna is the Impersonal Consciousness which is all

intelligence, speaking to us directly. "

 

No, it does not require that.

 

Krishna says in Gita:

avyaktam vyaktim aapannam

manyante maa abudhdhaya

param bhaavam ajaananto

mama bhUta maheswara.

 

However, God can be realized as formless, but it is a hard way, says krishna:

 

bahUnaam janmanaam ante GYaanavaan maam prapadyate

vaasudeva sarvam iti sa mahaatmaa sudurlabha

 

gyan yogis prefer to think god as formless, vaishnavas and bhaktas realize god with a form.

 

jai sri krishna!

-sv (Suresh Vyas)

----

 

On 7/28/07, karmayog <info wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Dave,Many of us are well-exposed to the West having studied there, lived there, or living there. So do feel free to ask probing and specific questions as answers by group members will benefit all of us, because even in India, we are increasingly struggling with Western lifestyle influences on Indian 'values'.

Some random thoughts of what I have found useful:a) understanding the value and necessity to move from 'tamsik' to 'rajsik' to 'saatvik' in all spheres of one's activities

b) " bhaav " - or intent - is the key that leads to right actionc) trying to catch something 'higher' instead of struggling to stop or let go of something 'lower'd) 'sharnaagati' - no fear, regret, worry, or doubt

So embracing vegetarianism as the right intent as it is more saatvik without worrying about balanced diet may make the process easier.Secondly, personally, I think, that while being vegetarian is desirable, but not being vegetarian should certainly not be made a mental obstacle for Krishna Puja. Maybe Krishna Puja will make you a vegetarian earlier and in an easier way.

Hope this helpsRam RamVinay- David Salyers @grou

ps.com Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:45 PM Suggestions on Non-secterian, Universal Application for WesternersI have trying to mold my life more in the mold of the Uddhava Gita as a first step and then building on the " harder " teachings of the Bhagavad Gita. As a non-Hindu Westerner without religious affiliation like myself, it is hard to start off with the 4 " traditional " regulative principles of Gaudiya Vaishnava of vegetarianism, no alcohol, no gambling, no illicit sex outside of marriage, etc... I am already doing 3 of the 4 - still struggling with vegetarianism, partially as I live in a semi-rural area where that can be more difficult as it is difficult and expensive to get a well-balanced and varied vegetarian diet.

A hard-nose approach to the regulative principles sort of drives off and discourages people who may be interested in the universal message of the Gita. It is also possible that I am not really suited for Krishna bhakti, but perhaps may be suited for a different deity for bhakti or a nonsectarian, universal bhakti. Any suggestions or direction would be welcomed!

I have been trying to take the approach of the Uddhava Gita in a nonsectarian manner so often I chant " Be One. Be Love. Be Peace. " which I associate with satchitananda and Brahman - this seems to bean easy practice to bring to people unfamiliar with Hinduism.

I have been sharing that information along with links to the International Gita Society on online discussions and Answers. Hopefully it will plant seeds in some people as I think it is an important universal spiritual teaching. Most of our devotions are nonsectarian as it does not seem right to do Krishna puja until or unless I have transitioned to a vegetarian diet. Suggestions on path directions, anyone?

Also, any thoughts or suggestions for working with Westerners and incorporating nonsectarian, universal applications would be appreciated.In peace and Namaste,Dave

[Guest guest]

Dear Swami Param,

 

It is up to you to treat the Almighty, Omni Potent, Omni Present, Unlimited, All Pervading, Infinite etc. etc. to limit to one name and form or to accept the above adjectives and give him wider and greater form.

 

Gitaji certainly does not belong to the Hindus alone. It belongs to the entire Man Kind. It does not refer to Hindu Dharma but to Sanatan Dharma. Gitaji starts with the letters "dhar" and ends with the letter "ma". These two when combined read "Dharma". Hence every thing written in Gitaji constitutes Dharma (Not Hindu Dharma but Sanatan Dharma).

 

Let me, however, clarify that personally I am a worshipper of Lord Krishna but I do not believe or will accept that he is limited to only this name or form. Even he, in that form has so many names Gopal, Kanahiya, Madhusudan, Makhan Chor and so on. Also, I believe that you know of "Dashawtar". Perhaps, you are also aware that Lord Krishna has himself said in Gitaji "Yo mam pashyati sarvatra...." (Chapter 6, Verse 30). Also, there is description of "Vishva Roop Darshan" in Gitaji Chapter 11. How can you then limit the unlimited.

 

Prabhuji, please widen your horizon and do more meditation on this subject with specific reference to Gitaji.. The answer will come to you from within.

 

A.H.Dalmia

 

 

 

 

-

Yogesh Kumar Katare

Wednesday, August 01, 2007 1:08 AM

Re: Suggestions on Non-secterian, Universal Application for Westerners

 

 

 

Dear Friends,

Dave has raised some very important points, which are important not only for Western humans but all of us.

In my opinion, it is important to keep in mind the incomprehensible nature of God, while worshipping in any form. We are free to assume God in any form; 'Krishna' or Sachhidananda' or "Brahman" as long as we keep in mind that Krishna, Sachhidananda (Existence, Consciousness and Bliss Absolute) or Brahman is much much more than what we imagine God to be. Sages have said even the Munis can not comprehend the real nature of Lord. But our of love and compassion and infinite intelligence, Lord accepts our prayers despite it's limitations.

Swami ji has also said that God as Schhidananda too is not what we meant by Sachhidananda, we use the term Sacchidananda because that terms is the only term in our language which can point out towards that, but real nature of God is beyond whatever we will imagine sachhidananda to be.

Like a child may not know the real nature, or all aspects of lives of child's parents, but parents nevertheless responds fully to child's cries.

Regarding vegetarianism, as have said by friends earlier, it is the intention which matters most. Non vegetarian diet is not desired but it is not an obstacle in bhakti. a bhakta who has surrendered fully to God, God himself sees that slowly the person will find one's dietary habits and circumstances changing.

Namaste.--------

From Manjula Patel Loving Divine, Pranam.

In BG 3:6 Lord is clarifying that those who abstain from the object of the sense pleasures but constantly think about them are hypocrites, they can never attain God He is saying that one has to renounce it inwardly. Can we really say that people who live closer to north pole can not attain God because they have to survive eating meat? Can we really say that only vegetarians have right over God and only they can attain God? No, both will be proven wrong. Chopping the head of a cabbage or cauliflower or any other vegetable is equally sinful because the same God resides in all of them.

Even scientifically it is proven that those who are violent - uprooting misbehaving with plants, when such person comes near plants they tremble out of fear!!! The only thing is while cutting veggies we don't see red blood flowing out of them so it doesn't look that fearful or guilt producing sight. Their torture is not visible to us so we don't feel their sufferings or dying and that's why we think veggies are ok to kill but animals are not. The entire shrusti operates on a law of survival, so one has to eat what is available to them.

 

Further evaluation shows that a lion has no choice but to eat meat and dear has no choice but to eat grass, however, human beings have choice. We need to analyze our own mental state - are we killing birds and animals to satisfy our tongue or is it really a question of survival (where we have no choice but to eat what is available)? Baba says, if you have a choice, choose the food that is less harmful to your spiritual practices but if there is no choice take whatever is available with the prayerful attitude. For example, meat takes 6 - 8 hrs to digest compared to veggies 2 - 4 hrs, so, if we have to practice some yoga -pranayams - name chanting, guess which one would be a hurdle? Meat of course because with heavy stomach we can not practice any of it. Have faith in God to lead us to the right food for our spiritual evolution and He will manage it.

 

I personally do believe that the food has impact on our thoughts and behaviour. Even in veggies, some make you drowsy (taamsic) and some restless (raajasic). Lord Krishna addresses this in BG 17:8-10.

 

Now a test for you all: Would you call milk coming from cows/buffalo/goat/ship/camel a veg or non-veg? Would you call honey collected by bees, a veg or non-veg? would you call fermented food (yogart, khaman-dhokala, etc.) veg or non-veg?

 

Humble regards,

always at Thy Holy Feet

---- hi, listers:

I have enjoyed and appreciated some of the insightful comments on this list. About vegetarianism, I know there is a lot of fear of the unknown, and many psychological obstacles against vegetables instead of meat. It's culture and custom.

 

.. But in the "gita", is there no place for common sense and good judgment; i.e., the compelling force of rational thinking? For example, I am compelled to accept the good sense of eating more vegetables because it is objectively more sensible. You get less cancer-causing toxins, less diabites, lower cholesterol; more energy, more bulk with less calories - and what's more, you can develop some very tasty, flavorfull meals - even better than ordinary meat dishes.

 

In India, I ate vegetarian, because that was the restaurante I found closest. But in eating it, I found I really enjoyed it alot more than I thought. I ate it for the taste and conveience, nothing more. The spices contributed a lot, as it does with any food. Back in US, I get meat thrown in my way a lot, because that's the life-style. Now, I find that meat or vegetables, its the spice and flavor that makes the difference. The western mind has a prejudice that only meat can taste good. With experience of tasty vegetarian meals, your common sense will do the rest, I think. But study and learning about health issues is often something that comes only after much harm is done to the physical body.

 

Lee

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Dear A.H. Dalmia,

When one says "There is only one GOD," and correlates this with "He," one must be able to prove such a statement. True Hindus do not worship "GOD" anymore than a true Christian worships Siva, or Vishnu or Devi.

 

Swami Param

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Ref. "One may discover that the teaching of Bhagwat Geeta is non-sectarian, universal in its appeal, and applicable to all times anywhere. This requires one to understand Krishna is the Impersonal Consciousness which is all intelligence, speaking to us directly. " No, it does not require that. Krishna says in Gita: avyaktam vyaktim aapannam manyante maa abudhdhaya param bhaavam ajaananto mama bhUta maheswara.

However, God can be realized as formless, but it is a hard way, says krishna:

bahUnaam janmanaam ante GYaanavaan maam prapadyate vaasudeva sarvam iti sa mahaatmaa sudurlabha

gyan yogis prefer to think god as formless, vaishnavas and bhaktas realize god with a form.

 

jai sri krishna!

-sv (Suresh Vyas)

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On 7/28/07, karmayog <info (AT) karmayog (DOT) org> wrote:

 

 

 

 

Hi Dave,Many of us are well-exposed to the West having studied there, lived there, or living there. So do feel free to ask probing and specific questions as answers by group members will benefit all of us, because even in India, we are increasingly struggling with Western lifestyle influences on Indian 'values'. Some random thoughts of what I have found useful:a) understanding the value and necessity to move from 'tamsik' to 'rajsik' to 'saatvik' in all spheres of one's activitiesb) "bhaav" - or intent - is the key that leads to right actionc) trying to catch something 'higher' instead of struggling to stop or let go of something 'lower'd) 'sharnaagati' - no fear, regret, worry, or doubt So embracing vegetarianism as the right intent as it is more saatvik without worrying about balanced diet may make the process easier.Secondly, personally, I think, that while being vegetarian is desirable, but not being vegetarian should certainly not be made a mental obstacle for Krishna Puja. Maybe Krishna Puja will make you a vegetarian earlier and in an easier way. Hope this helpsRam RamVinay- David Salyers @grou ps.com Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:45 PM Suggestions on Non-secterian, Universal Application for WesternersI have trying to mold my life more in the mold of the Uddhava Gita as a first step and then building on the "harder" teachings of the Bhagavad Gita. As a non-Hindu Westerner without religious affiliation like myself, it is hard to start off with the 4 "traditional" regulative principles of Gaudiya Vaishnava of vegetarianism, no alcohol, no gambling, no illicit sex outside of marriage, etc... I am already doing 3 of the 4 - still struggling with vegetarianism, partially as I live in a semi-rural area where that can be more difficult as it is difficult and expensive to get a well-balanced and varied vegetarian diet. A hard-nose approach to the regulative principles sort of drives off and discourages people who may be interested in the universal message of the Gita. It is also possible that I am not really suited for Krishna bhakti, but perhaps may be suited for a different deity for bhakti or a nonsectarian, universal bhakti. Any suggestions or direction would be welcomed! I have been trying to take the approach of the Uddhava Gita in a nonsectarian manner so often I chant "Be One. Be Love. Be Peace." which I associate with satchitananda and Brahman - this seems to bean easy practice to bring to people unfamiliar with Hinduism. I have been sharing that information along with links to the International Gita Society on online discussions and Answers. Hopefully it will plant seeds in some people as I think it is an important universal spiritual teaching. Most of our devotions are nonsectarian as it does not seem right to do Krishna puja until or unless I have transitioned to a vegetarian diet. Suggestions on path directions, anyone? Also, any thoughts or suggestions for working with Westerners and incorporating nonsectarian, universal applications would be appreciated.In peace and Namaste,Dave

[Guest guest]

Loving Divine,

Pranam.

Before showing Arjuna His Vishwaroop (Universal Form, BG chapter 11), Lord talks briefly about who He is in BG chapter 10, please read & contemplate on both the chapters. So if God is in any & every form, it doesn't hurt one to pray Him in the form one likes & loves, believes in, have faith in or the form that gives one inner peace & joy. Praying to a form is the beginning stage as it is difficult for our mind to contemplate on formless. Even Shri Ramakrishna Paramhamsa has to let go Mother Kali to reach this Universal Form of God.

 

Lord also clarifies the point in BG 9:23 that any form is prayed by a person is indirectly praying the Universal God. Also check out BG 4:11 - whatever way they pray/seek Me and surrenders unto Me, I accept & reward them accordingly; they follow My path in different ways, but the goal is one. Also contemplate on BG 11:15 where Arjuna is saying that he sees all beings including other Demi Gods in Lord.

 

 

Ritualistic puja is all outward but sometimes, for some people, it helps set the stage to go inward so it is ok but the ultimate goal is to go inward and unite with the Universal God. Don't be too much worried about the external rituals if you can't perform them. By performing just the rituals one can not attain God, self enquiry is required (BG 4:33). Even if you are not intentionally engaging in self enquiry, God Himself will facilitate it by raising the right kind of questions/doubts in your mind & making you seek the answers or by creating such odd situation for you where you have no choice but to learn about Him and His reach in our lives...! :-).

 

 

humble regards,

always at Thy Holy Feet

- David Salyers @grou

ps.com Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:45 PM Suggestions on Non-secterian, Universal Application for Westerners

.... A hard-nose approach to the regulative principles sort of drives off and discourages people who may be interested in the universal message of the Gita. It is also possible that I am not really suited for Krishna bhakti, but perhaps may be suited for a different deity for bhakti or a nonsectarian, universal bhakti. Any suggestions or direction would be welcomed! ... Also, any thoughts or suggestions for working with Westerners and incorporating nonsectarian, universal applications would be appreciated.In peace and Namaste,Dave