Concept of God.............

[Guest guest]

I am a regular reader of this forum. The mails in this forum at times confuse me. May be my intellect level is not that what is required. An example of such a discussion on this board- God is mentioned as pervading the entire universe. He empowers everything. Human beings accomplish any task only through him, without him without one cannot do any work. He is like petrol in a car. He makes the car work, but is not responsible for how the car is driven. Our fate only depends only upon our action. The whole proceeding of life is chain of events, which depends upon our Karma and is executed with mathematical precision. There is no role of softer human attributes like mercy, love etc in the scheme of things. If such is the case, then this God has no personality… He could be considered as just another form of superior energy like electricity, heat etc. Praying and worshipping such a God is akin to praying to a candle or electric bulb!! One can hardly develop faith and love to such a form of God!!! And the life will be a very-very dry one. I think as human beings, it is essential to

conceptualize God as a lovable supreme being. He has a personality, does distinguish between good and bad. He rewards good behaviour or punishes bad one. He listens to us and has interest in our goodwill. Nobody has seen God nor one can deny his existence. It is important therefore to conceptualize God on premises which best fits the scheme of life; such that it makes better human beings, provide for happiness and peace in the world.

Gita Talk Guidelines

 

FROM THE MODERATOR

 

The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

 

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhaks clarify their doubts related to Gita shlokas. For responses to be posted, they must further clarify the understanding of Gitaji.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate the response

3. Please limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc.

4. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to twenty line maximum, if possible).

5. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.

6. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations

7. Please do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc.

8. Kindly do not address the response to a particular individual, since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to a large readership, not all responses will be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration novices, youth, westerners, non-secterian audience. Please limit the use on only sanskrit words, and provide the english word with sanskrit bracketed wherever possible.

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

[Guest guest]

See Firstly what we want does not happen always but what we do not do happen--So its clear a Super being that is GOD is making things happen

 

Its wrong to say he has no MERCY or DAYA as he is full of Karuna or Daya --Again HE never Punishes any one as we tend to think

 

What happens to us is nothing BUT the KARMA we have carried over the births-We get good things for good things done by us and get Bad things for our past misdeeds

 

We can minimise the misery by PRAYER and doing good things now--It will lessen our misery

 

So GOD is the Supervisor and we should do our DUTY for our sake not becos HE is supervising

 

I hope I have tried to clarify some of your points

JAI SREE KRISHNA

Parthasarathi

----

It is mentioned below that 'Nobody has seen God'. This is not true. I have a personal experience of seeing God in the form of a old lady in a Temple in India. She spoke to me.

preetha kanna

----

Hello mr.Sundeep, This is my humble opinion after reading ur message below. In ur message below, these are the couple of sentences:

***********************************************************************************

"1.I think as human beings, it is essential to conceptualize God as a lovable supreme being.

2.Nobody has seen God nor one can deny his existence. It is important therefore to conceptualize God on premises which best fits the scheme of life; such that it makes better human beings, provide for happiness and peace in the world. "

***********************************************************************************

(within double quotes" which explains the main subtle meaning of Gita from the different aspect. )

 

All the vedas/brahma-sootras/upanishads..tell the same that to conceptualize God based on ur own self inquiry (jignnyasa). Any school or religion or spiritual guru (as people may call) or any discussion is only as a starting step in one's own personal quest to understand and anlyze God. Also, Yes, We think about God as lovable supreme being but again..when u consider 'lovable' then the other thing of rewarding Good and punishing bad will not arise at all.

 

Also, another thing is, Sometimes, u may come accross certain knowledge which u may feel right, and sometims u come accross certain knowledge which u may feel wrong, sometimes u may come accross the knowledge which u may feel maybe or maybe not correct. But continue your analysis and enquiry with respect to your own understanding and based on the ur experiences, you will eventually understand what to do and what not to do easily and based on ur won knowledge agaian, the confusion will slowly dissappear. I heard this and sharing here..Right knowledge comes in only one form but teh wrong knowledge comes in more than one forms.

 

Also, it is ok to get confused..only by confusion, you will start the analysis in ur own way. once u become steady with ur knowledge in urself (which made u analyze only b'case u were confused), the confusions will slowly dissappear. In the world, right knowledge as well as wrong knowledge is present..that is the way the world is..which leads to confusion sometimes. only by ur own enquiry , you will come to know of the truth yourself. so, pelase do not be dis-heartened by confusion at all.

 

Regards.

Bharathi

----

On 8/31/07, sundeep gupta <sundeepgupta1 wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am a regular reader of this forum. The mails in this forum at times confuse me.

May be my intellect level is not that what is required.

 

An example of such a discussion on this board-

God is mentioned as pervading the entire universe. He empowers everything. Human beings accomplish any task only through him, without him without one cannot do any work. He is like petrol in a car. He makes the car work, but is not responsible for how the car is driven.

 

Our fate only depends only upon our action. The whole proceeding of life is chain of events, which depends upon our Karma and is executed with mathematical precision. There is no role of softer human attributes like mercy, love etc in the scheme of things.

 

 

If such is the case, then this God has no personality… He could be considered as just another form of superior energy like electricity, heat etc. Praying and worshipping such a God is akin to praying to a candle or electric bulb!! One can hardly develop faith and love to such a form of God!!! And the life will be a very-very dry one.

 

I think as human beings, it is essential to conceptualize God as a lovable supreme being. He has a personality, does distinguish between good and bad. He rewards good behaviour or punishes bad one. He listens to us and has interest in our goodwill.

 

Nobody has seen God nor one can deny his existence. It is important therefore to conceptualize God on premises which best fits the scheme of life; such that it makes better human beings, provide for happiness and peace in the world.

 

Gita Talk Guidelines

FROM THE MODERATOR

The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhaks clarify their doubts related to Gita shlokas. For responses to be posted, they must further clarify the understanding of Gitaji. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate the response 3. Please limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. 4. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to twenty line maximum, if possible). 5. Please limit discussions to subject at hand. 6. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations 7. Please do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Kindly do not address the response to a particular individual, since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to a large readership, not all responses will be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration novices, youth, westerners, non-secterian audience. Please limit the use on only sanskrit words, and provide the english word with sanskrit bracketed wherever possible.

MODERATOR Ram Ram

[Guest guest]

Bharathi has explained it wonderfully...there is no need for more words.

 

Most times we do not listen or read others. we are in a hurry to write what we think...

One needs to cultivate the habit of listening/reading others before we say/write something.

It is only in the interest and growth of these columns/this group since group members have

come together to understand, learn and grow. Please do not misunderstand.

 

some of the lines written by our friend Parthasarathi need manan on the following:

 

God is making things happen !

He is full of Karuna and Daya !

What happens to us is nothing but the Karma we carry from previous births..!

We should minimize the misery by prayer...........!

Self inquiry is the best way to know/feel God/Source.

 

 

 

On 9/1/07, Parthasarathi BR <brp.sarathi wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

See Firstly what we want does not happen always but what we do not do happen--So its clear a Super being that is GOD is making things happen

 

Its wrong to say he has no MERCY or DAYA as he is full of Karuna or Daya --Again HE never Punishes any one as we tend to think

 

What happens to us is nothing BUT the KARMA we have carried over the births-We get good things for good things done by us and get Bad things for our past misdeeds

 

We can minimise the misery by PRAYER and doing good things now--It will lessen our misery

 

So GOD is the Supervisor and we should do our DUTY for our sake not becos HE is supervising

 

I hope I have tried to clarify some of your points

JAI SREE KRISHNA

Parthasarathi

----

It is mentioned below that 'Nobody has seen God'. This is not true. I have a personal experience of seeing God in the form of a old lady in a Temple in India. She spoke to me. preetha kanna ----

Hello mr.Sundeep, This is my humble opinion after reading ur message below. In ur message below, these are the couple of sentences: *********************************************************************************** " 1.I think as human beings, it is essential to conceptualize God as a lovable supreme being. 2.Nobody has seen God nor one can deny his existence. It is important therefore to conceptualize God on premises which best fits the scheme of life; such that it makes better human beings, provide for happiness and peace in the world. " *********************************************************************************** (within double quotes " which explains the main subtle meaning of Gita from the different aspect. )

All the vedas/brahma-sootras/upanishads..tell the same that to conceptualize God based on ur own self inquiry (jignnyasa). Any school or religion or spiritual guru (as people may call) or any discussion is only as a starting step in one's own personal quest to understand and anlyze God. Also, Yes, We think about God as lovable supreme being but again..when u consider 'lovable' then the other thing of rewarding Good and punishing bad will not arise at all.

Also, another thing is, Sometimes, u may come accross certain knowledge which u may feel right, and sometims u come accross certain knowledge which u may feel wrong, sometimes u may come accross the knowledge which u may feel maybe or maybe not correct. But continue your analysis and enquiry with respect to your own understanding and based on the ur experiences, you will eventually understand what to do and what not to do easily and based on ur won knowledge agaian, the confusion will slowly dissappear. I heard this and sharing here..Right knowledge comes in only one form but teh wrong knowledge comes in more than one forms.

Also, it is ok to get confused..only by confusion, you will start the analysis in ur own way. once u become steady with ur knowledge in urself (which made u analyze only b'case u were confused), the confusions will slowly dissappear. In the world, right knowledge as well as wrong knowledge is present..that is the way the world is..which leads to confusion sometimes. only by ur own enquiry , you will come to know of the truth yourself. so, pelase do not be dis-heartened by confusion at all.

Regards. Bharathi ----

 

On 8/31/07, sundeep gupta <sundeepgupta1

> wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am a regular reader of this forum. The mails in this forum at times confuse me.

May be my intellect level is not that what is required.

 

An example of such a discussion on this board-

God is mentioned as pervading the entire universe. He empowers everything. Human beings accomplish any task only through him, without him without one cannot do any work. He is like petrol in a car. He makes the car work, but is not responsible for how the car is driven.

Our fate only depends only upon our action. The whole proceeding of life is chain of events, which depends upon our Karma and is executed with mathematical precision. There is no role of softer human attributes like mercy, love etc in the scheme of things.

 

If such is the case, then this God has no personality… He could be considered as just another form of superior energy like electricity, heat etc. Praying and worshipping such a God is akin to praying to a candle or electric bulb!! One can hardly develop faith and love to such a form of God!!! And the life will be a very-very dry one.

 

I think as human beings, it is essential to conceptualize God as a lovable supreme being. He has a personality, does distinguish between good and bad. He rewards good behaviour or punishes bad one. He listens to us and has interest in our goodwill.

 

Nobody has seen God nor one can deny his existence. It is important therefore to conceptualize God on premises which best fits the scheme of life; such that it makes better human beings, provide for happiness and peace in the world.

 

Gita Talk Guidelines

FROM THE MODERATOR

The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhaks clarify their doubts related to Gita shlokas. For responses to be posted, they must further clarify the understanding of Gitaji. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate the response 3. Please limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. 4. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to twenty line maximum, if possible). 5. Please limit discussions to subject at hand. 6. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations 7. Please do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Kindly do not address the response to a particular individual, since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to a large readership, not all responses will be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration novices, youth, westerners, non-secterian audience. Please limit the use on only sanskrit words, and provide the english word with sanskrit bracketed wherever possible.

MODERATOR Ram Ram

[Guest guest]

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Sandeepji has raised valid issues here, and should be

addressed. It is a blessing of God only that one sees

these issues. There is a nagging feeling that

" something is missing from all I hear about God is and

does " .

If I may humbly point it out, when we keep saying " God

will take care of everything, surrender to God, its

all due to our past karma, etc etc " we may need to

know first what is this God who is do-all and be-all?

Our language portrays God as someone who is constantly

watching us and controlling by judging our merits and

de-merits, God being a concept of separate entity who

created this world.

With open mind inquiry, this may not be found as the

effective way to live. I think we need to understand

Krishna of Geeta as Impersonal Consciousness which we

all ARE, not a separate entity we think we are! This

apparant separate individual with personality is an

actor God has become on the stage of Life playing a

role assigned to " me " and " you " and " all " . God is

Intelligence available to these actors all the time,

we just have to be open to this fact and say YES to

this offer. Understanding of God is actually

experiencing God!

Then one will see God in action everywhere and

everytime. Nothing personal, tragedy or comedy happens

to the actor, right? Actor knowing he/she is an actor

only, and not the role he/she is playing is freedom

from the tragedy or comedy. Only not knowing can make

suffering possible.

 

Again " we " are not separate from God! We are all

responsible for everything that happens to us, but not

guilty! Freedom happens when we act to free ourselves

from the wrong concepts of separateness!

Let us see that everything that is, and is not, all

Intelligence, Love, Peace, Harmony, Beauty IS what we

call God! God and these are one and the same.

These are all experiences only not things, concepts,

beliefs, opinions! God is experience of God!

Sadar Namaskaras! Pratap

--- sundeep gupta <sundeepgupta1 wrote:

 

> Dear Sir,

>

> I am a regular reader of this forum. The mails in

> this forum at times confuse me.

> May be my intellect level is not that what is

> required.

>

> An example of such a discussion on this board-

> God is mentioned as pervading the entire universe.

> He empowers everything. Human beings accomplish any

> task only through him, without him without one

> cannot do any work. He is like petrol in a car. He

> makes the car work, but is not responsible for how

> the car is driven.

> Our fate only depends only upon our action. The

> whole proceeding of life is chain of events, which

> depends upon our Karma and is executed with

> mathematical precision. There is no role of softer

> human attributes like mercy, love etc in the scheme

> of things.

>

> If such is the case, then this God has no

> personality… He could be considered as just another

> form of superior energy like electricity, heat etc.

> Praying and worshipping such a God is akin to

> praying to a candle or electric bulb!! One can

> hardly develop faith and love to such a form of

> God!!! And the life will be a very-very dry one.

>

> I think as human beings, it is essential to

> conceptualize God as a lovable supreme being. He has

> a personality, does distinguish between good and

> bad. He rewards good behaviour or punishes bad one.

> He listens to us and has interest in our goodwill.

>

> Nobody has seen God nor one can deny his

> existence. It is important therefore to

> conceptualize God on premises which best fits the

> scheme of life; such that it makes better human

> beings, provide for happiness and peace in the

> world.

>

> regards

> Sundeep

[Guest guest]

God is mentioned as having form as well as he is formless. In both the states he is omnipotent & omnipresent. He is the supreme source of energy, through which all draw sustenance. But, he is distant from the action of his devotees. He cannot control the reaction of the karma of people; the fruit of the action good or bad has to be borne by the people anyway. My preliminary experience shows that – 1) One cannot accept both form & a formless concept of God at the same time. They are incompatible for dedicated devotion. 2) Bhakti is of primary importance. Without bhakti, any form of yoga like karma yoga etc, will be soul-less. 3) For majority of the devotees who are attempting God realization; it may be necessary to consider God as a separate entity. The other concept of all pervading Brahman is a bit too much to practise for new devotees. It is like starting a Masters course without going through primary level education. Shall be grateful for experience from both new and experienced devotees. Sundeep

 

-----------

It is not at all "clear a Super being that is GOD is making things happen." In fact, this is simply a dogma that has never been proved.

 

Swami Param

 

-----------

God remains witness says many scriptures and saints.

Only from human one can elevate to become one with supreme.

Christ said, "empty thyself I shall fill it" Means empty your mind from desires and GOD gets filled.

Buddha said, Desire is root cause of all evils.

Understand thyself first

GOD is none other that one's self

To raise from Human to divine is ones choice. That is why intellect is given only to humans.

One is not born by choice but by his/her Karmas of the past birth.

B.Sathyanarayan

 

-----------

Parthasarathi BR <brp.sarathi wrote: See Firstly what we want does not happen always but what we do not do happen--So its clear a Super being that is GOD is making things happen Its wrong to say he has no MERCY or DAYA as he is full of Karuna or Daya --Again HE never Punishes any one as we tend to

think What happens to us is nothing BUT the KARMA we have carried over the births-We get good things for good things done by us and get Bad things for our past misdeeds We can minimise the misery by PRAYER and doing good things now--It will lessen our misery So GOD is the Supervisor and we should do our DUTY for our sake not becos HE is supervising I hope I have tried to clarify some of your points JAI SREE KRISHNA Parthasarathi ---- It is mentioned below that 'Nobody has seen God'. This is not true. I have a personal experience of seeing God in the form of a old lady in a Temple in India. She spoke to me. preetha kanna ---- Hello mr.Sundeep, This is my humble opinion after reading ur message below. In ur message below, these are the couple of sentences: *********************************************************************************** "1.I think as human beings, it is essential to conceptualize God as a lovable supreme being. 2.Nobody has seen God nor one can deny his existence. It is important therefore to conceptualize God on premises which best fits the scheme of life; such that it makes better human beings, provide for happiness and peace in the world. " *********************************************************************************** (within double quotes" which explains the main subtle meaning of Gita from the different aspect. ) All the vedas/brahma-sootras/upanishads..tell the same that to conceptualize God based on ur own self inquiry (jignnyasa). Any school or religion or spiritual guru (as people may call) or any discussion is only as a starting step in one's own personal quest to understand and anlyze God. Also, Yes, We think about God as lovable supreme being but again..when u consider 'lovable' then the other thing of rewarding Good and punishing bad will not arise at all. Also, another thing is, Sometimes, u may come accross certain knowledge which u may feel right, and sometims u come accross certain knowledge which u may feel wrong, sometimes u may come accross the knowledge which u may feel maybe or maybe not correct. But continue your analysis and enquiry with respect to your own understanding and based on the ur experiences, you will eventually understand what to do and what not to do easily and based on ur won knowledge agaian, the confusion will

slowly dissappear. I heard this and sharing here..Right knowledge comes in only one form but teh wrong knowledge comes in more than one forms. Also, it is ok to get confused..only by confusion, you will start the analysis in ur own way. once u become steady with ur knowledge in urself (which made u analyze only b'case u were confused), the confusions will slowly dissappear. In the world, right knowledge as well as wrong knowledge is present..that is the way the world is..which leads to confusion sometimes. only by ur own enquiry , you will come to know of the truth yourself. so, pelase do not be dis-heartened by confusion at all. Regards. Bharathi ---- On 8/31/07, sundeep gupta <sundeepgupta1 > wrote: I am a regular reader of this forum. The mails in this forum at times confuse me. May be my intellect level is not that what is required. An example of such a discussion on this board- God is mentioned as pervading the entire universe. He empowers everything. Human beings accomplish any task only through him, without him

without one cannot do any work. He is like petrol in a car. He makes the car work, but is not responsible for how the car is driven. Our fate only depends only upon our action. The whole proceeding of life is chain of events, which depends upon our Karma and is executed with mathematical precision. There is no role of softer human attributes like mercy, love etc in the scheme of things. If such is the case, then this God has no personality… He could be considered as just another form of superior energy like electricity, heat etc. Praying and worshipping such a God is akin to praying to a candle or electric bulb!! One can hardly develop faith and love to such a form of God!!! And the life will be a very-very dry one. I think as human beings, it is essential to conceptualize God as a lovable supreme being. He has a personality, does distinguish between good and bad. He rewards good behaviour or punishes bad one. He listens to us and has interest in our goodwill. Nobody has seen God nor one can deny his existence. It is important therefore to conceptualize God on premises which best fits the scheme of life; such that it makes better human beings, provide for happiness and peace in the world. Gita Talk Guidelines FROM THE MODERATOR The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions. 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhaks

clarify their doubts related to Gita shlokas. For responses to be posted, they must further clarify the understanding of Gitaji. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate the response 3. Please limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. 4. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to twenty line maximum, if possible). 5. Please limit discussions to subject at hand. 6. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations 7. Please do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Kindly do not address the response to a particular individual, since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to a large readership, not all responses will be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into

consideration novices, youth, westerners, non-secterian audience. Please limit the use on only sanskrit words, and provide the english word with sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram

[Guest guest]

SHREE HARI FROM MODERATOR.... FOR ALL GITA TALK CONTRIBUTORS IN FUTURE PLEASE KINDLY KEEP RESPONSES / MESSAGES SHORT AND TO THE POINT. PLEASE RE-READ THE GROUND RULES. RAM RAM This is my humble opinion based on the three steps you have mentioned below. 1) One cannot accept both form & a formless concept of God at the same time. They are incompatible for dedicated devotion. Yes, I understand that one cannot accept both form & a formless concept of God at the initial stages of understanding/realizing God. Once we understand the basic concept of

God is THAT which pervades everything and everywhere, then it does not matter whether God is with form or without form because at that time, whether u are in the temple (paying respect to the idol) or outside the temple paying respect to any animate or inanimate being u come accross since at that time, you completely see that divinity revelling in every being.You see that divinity everywhere. Then, you see "God with the form" in the idol you see in the temple and "God without form" in the same idol as the divine pervading force within the idol. 2) Bhakti is of primary importance. Without bhakti, any form of yoga like karma yoga etc, will be soul-less. I guess I understand that based on your sentence, you mean..if bhakthi is there..then there is love, then it may be soul-full but in karma-yoga..only action is involved and hence its

soul-less. What is the definition of "Bhakthi" with respect to you is more important and I feel that the concept of 'bhakthi' is relative. As per the Gita/vedas/upanishads - we understand that every activity can be divinised. Any mundane activity can be observed and divinised with the total surrender onto that Supreme. In Bhakthi yoga, yes, it involves complete surrender and Love towards Lord and even

there, you just do not ask anything from the God and u just Love the God. In Karma yoga, you just do every action as your duty with the attitude of surrender to that Supreme without expecting any fruits for the actions.When can anyone NOT expect anything in return but just does the action..in an indirect sense if we deeply analyze, we understand that unless the heart is filled with pure love towards all , you will not be able to do the action without expectation. when one prepares the mind of 'no expectation', then it does not matter for him/her whether he is feeling soul-ful or soul-less since

he just does his duty leaving everything onto Lord. But as a third person, looking at these two personalities (bhakthi and karma yogi), you may feel its soul-full or soul-less. Based on your own taste towards life, follow the path which you feel suits you and this bhakthi or karma yoga are the steps to prepare ones mind to be calm(since mind is very diffiucult to be controlled as Lord Krishna replies to Arjuna, "Yes, indeed, Mind is difficult to be controlled but with proper preparation, one can control the mind". Once, the mind is controlled, it becomes calm and ready for the

contemplation of the SELF or the ultimate reality and at that point, you just glide into that state of Supreme being (as per many schools of thought..some say..you get merged into that supreme, some say that your entity realizes the supreme but stays seperate etc etc). But again, experience yourself by yourself and do not expect even that too ..whether u get merged or whatever..and surrender that meditation and all practices also onto that Supreme and thats the ultimate state. 3) For majority of the devotees who are attempting God realization; it may be necessary to consider God as a separate entity. The other concept of all pervading Brahman is a bit too much to practise for new devotees. It is like starting a Masters course without going through primary level education. yes , I understand what you mean. I guess, it depends on the personality of the person based on his own interpretation of the meaning 'God

realization'.. For ex: Let us say that a person may be devoted to sincerity/honesty/kindness/compassion/etc in his/her work/life (like work is worship) all life and do not believe in the literal term "God" (then separate entity of God does not arise here) ..for those kind of personalities, they may be interpreted as 'do not believe in God' but indirectly they see that divinity in their own way in everyone. But again, if the person thinking about worship of God as idol and thinking about that same God pervading everywhere..may be confusing in the beginning and so, yes, in the beginning, just having the attitude of something higher existence other than oneself will be the starting step which will be easy to understand as a seperate entity. But after starting that , it may be the better idea to continue self analysis /self inquiry and arrive at their own understanding. Have a nice evening, Regards. sundeep gupta <sundeepgupta1 wrote: God is mentioned as having form as well as he is formless. In both the states he is omnipotent & omnipresent. He is the supreme source of energy, through which all draw sustenance. But, he is distant from the action of his devotees. He cannot control the reaction of the karma

of people; the fruit of the action good or bad has to be borne by the people anyway. My preliminary experience shows that – 1) One cannot accept both form & a formless concept of God at the same time. They are incompatible for dedicated

devotion. 2) Bhakti is of primary importance. Without bhakti, any form of yoga like karma yoga etc, will be soul-less. 3) For majority of the

devotees who are attempting God realization; it may be necessary to consider God as a separate entity. The other concept of all pervading Brahman is a bit too much to practise for new devotees. It is like starting a Masters course without going through primary level education. Shall be grateful for experience from both new and experienced devotees. Sundeep ----------- It is not at all "clear a Super being that is GOD is making things happen." In fact, this is simply a dogma that has never been proved. Swami Param ----------- God remains witness says many scriptures and saints. Only from human one can elevate to become one with supreme. Christ said, "empty thyself I shall fill it" Means empty your mind from desires and GOD gets filled. Buddha said, Desire is root cause of all evils. Understand thyself first GOD is none other that one's self To raise from Human to divine is ones choice. That is why intellect is given only to humans. One is not born by choice but by his/her Karmas of the past birth. B.Sathyanarayan ----------- Parthasarathi BR <brp.sarathi > wrote: See Firstly what we want does not happen always but what we do not do happen--So its clear a Super being that is GOD is making things happen Its wrong to say he has no MERCY or DAYA as he is full of Karuna or Daya --Again HE never Punishes any one as we tend to think What happens to us is nothing BUT the KARMA we have carried over the births-We get good things for good things done by us and get Bad things for our past misdeeds We can minimise the misery by PRAYER and doing good things now--It will lessen our misery So GOD is the

Supervisor and we should do our DUTY for our sake not becos HE is supervising I hope I have tried to clarify some of your points JAI SREE KRISHNA Parthasarathi ---- It is mentioned below that 'Nobody has seen God'. This is not true. I have a personal experience of seeing God in the form of a old lady in a Temple in India. She spoke to me. preetha kanna ---- Hello mr.Sundeep, This is my humble opinion after reading ur message below. In ur message below, these are the couple of sentences: ***********************************************************************************

"1.I think as human beings, it is essential to conceptualize God as a lovable supreme being. 2.Nobody has seen God nor one can deny his existence. It is important therefore to conceptualize God on premises which best fits the scheme of life; such that it makes better human beings, provide for happiness and peace in the world. " *********************************************************************************** (within double quotes" which explains the main subtle meaning of Gita from the different aspect. ) All the vedas/brahma-sootras/upanishads..tell the same that to conceptualize God based on ur own self inquiry (jignnyasa). Any school or religion or spiritual guru (as people may call) or any discussion is only as a starting step in one's own personal quest to understand and anlyze God. Also, Yes, We think about God as lovable supreme being but again..when u consider 'lovable'

then the other thing of rewarding Good and punishing bad will not arise at all. Also, another thing is, Sometimes, u may come accross certain knowledge which u may feel right, and sometims u come accross certain knowledge which u may feel wrong, sometimes u may come accross the knowledge which u may feel maybe or maybe not correct. But continue your analysis and enquiry with respect to your own understanding and based on the ur experiences, you will eventually understand what to do and what not to do easily and based on ur won knowledge agaian, the confusion will slowly dissappear. I heard this and sharing here..Right knowledge comes in only one form but teh wrong knowledge comes in more than one forms. Also, it is ok to get confused..only by confusion, you will start the analysis in ur own way. once u become steady with ur knowledge in urself (which made u analyze only b'case u were confused), the confusions will slowly dissappear. In the

world, right knowledge as well as wrong knowledge is present..that is the way the world is..which leads to confusion sometimes. only by ur own enquiry , you will come to know of the truth yourself. so, pelase do not be dis-heartened by confusion at all. Regards. Bharathi ---- On 8/31/07, sundeep gupta <sundeepgupta1 > wrote: I am a regular reader of this forum. The mails

in this forum at times confuse me. May be my intellect level is not that what is required. An example of such a discussion on this board- God is mentioned as pervading the entire universe. He empowers everything. Human beings accomplish any task only through him, without him without one cannot do any work. He is like petrol in a car. He makes the car work, but is not responsible for how the car is driven. Our fate only depends only upon our action. The whole proceeding of life is chain of events, which depends upon our Karma and is executed with mathematical precision. There is no role of softer human attributes like mercy, love etc in the scheme of things.

If such is the case, then this God has no personality… He could be considered as just another form of superior energy like electricity, heat etc. Praying and worshipping such a God is akin to praying to a candle or electric bulb!! One can hardly develop faith and love to such a form of God!!! And the life will be a very-very dry one. I think as human beings, it is essential to conceptualize God as a lovable supreme being. He has a personality, does distinguish between good and bad. He rewards good behaviour or punishes bad one. He listens to us and has interest in our goodwill. Nobody has seen God nor one can deny his existence. It is important therefore to conceptualize God on premises which best fits the scheme of life; such that it makes better human beings, provide for happiness and peace in the world. Gita Talk Guidelines FROM THE MODERATOR The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions. 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhaks clarify their doubts related to Gita shlokas. For responses to be posted, they must further clarify the understanding of Gitaji. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate the response 3. Please limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. 4. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to twenty line maximum, if possible). 5. Please limit discussions to subject at hand. 6.

Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations 7. Please do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Kindly do not address the response to a particular individual, since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to a large readership, not all responses will be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration novices, youth, westerners, non-secterian audience. Please limit the use on only sanskrit words, and provide the english word with sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram

[Guest guest]

I like your explanation. Couple of points --In the 3rd point or step, your mentioned:"For ex: Let us say that a person may be devoted to sincerity/honesty/ kindness/ compassion/ etc in his/her work/life (like work is worship) all life and do not believe in the literal term "God" (then separate entity of God does not arise here) ..for those kind of personalities, they may be interpreted as 'do not believe in God' but indirectly they see that divinity in their own way in everyone."Would you say these personalities, non-believers or 'niriIshawarvaadi' are practicing 'formless' God? I guess not as they are non-believers by definition. I can relate their qualities, even 'work is worship' attitude with morals and ethics, but would you consider them to be on the spiritual path? - Second point I would like to mention about the 'form and formless' God acceptance simultaneously. I think one an accept it at any

stage if you think of sleep. In sleep, you have a form(you don't lose your body), and yet you are formless(you are not aware of the body); you have Gunas(your metabolism is running) and you are Nirgun(you are not affected by any place, person or thing). You are both ways, same is with God.regards....Bharathi <bh_4321 wrote: SHREE HARI FROM MODERATOR.... FOR ALL GITA TALK CONTRIBUTORS IN FUTURE PLEASE KINDLY KEEP RESPONSES / MESSAGES SHORT AND TO THE POINT. PLEASE RE-READ THE GROUND RULES. RAM RAM This is my humble

opinion based on the three steps you have mentioned below. 1) One cannot accept both form & a formless concept of God at the same time. They are incompatible for dedicated devotion. Yes, I understand that one cannot accept both form

& a formless concept of God at the initial stages of understanding/realizing God. Once we understand the basic concept of God is THAT which pervades everything and everywhere, then it does not matter whether God is with form or without form because at that time, whether u are in the temple (paying respect to the idol) or outside the temple paying respect to any animate or inanimate being u come accross since at that time, you completely see that divinity revelling in every being.You see that divinity everywhere. Then, you see "God with the form" in the idol you see in the temple and "God without form" in the same idol as the divine pervading force within the idol. 2) Bhakti is of primary importance. Without bhakti, any form of yoga like karma yoga etc, will be soul-less. I guess I understand that based on your sentence, you mean..if bhakthi is there..then there is love, then it may be soul-full but in karma-yoga..only action is involved and hence its soul-less. What is the definition of "Bhakthi" with respect to you is more important and I feel that the concept of 'bhakthi' is relative. As per the Gita/vedas/upanishads - we understand that every activity can be divinised. Any mundane activity can be observed and divinised with the total surrender onto that Supreme. In Bhakthi yoga, yes, it involves complete surrender and Love towards Lord and even there, you just do not ask anything from the God and u just Love the God. In Karma yoga, you just do every action as your duty with the attitude of surrender to that Supreme without expecting any fruits for the actions.When can anyone NOT expect anything in

return but just does the action..in an indirect sense if we deeply analyze, we understand that unless the heart is filled with pure love towards all , you will not be able to do the action without expectation. when one prepares the mind of 'no expectation', then it does not matter for him/her whether he is feeling soul-ful or soul-less since he just does his duty leaving everything onto Lord. But as a third person, looking at these two personalities (bhakthi and karma yogi), you may feel its soul-full or soul-less. Based on your own taste towards life, follow the

path which you feel suits you and this bhakthi or karma yoga are the steps to prepare ones mind to be calm(since mind is very diffiucult to be controlled as Lord Krishna replies to Arjuna, "Yes, indeed, Mind is difficult to be controlled but with proper preparation, one can control the mind". Once, the mind is controlled, it becomes calm and ready for the contemplation of the SELF or the ultimate reality and at that point, you just glide into that state of Supreme being (as per many schools of thought..some say..you get merged into that supreme, some say that your entity realizes the supreme but stays seperate etc etc). But again, experience yourself by yourself and do not expect even that too ..whether u get merged or whatever..and surrender that meditation and all practices also onto that Supreme and thats the ultimate state. 3)

For majority of the devotees who are attempting God realization; it may be necessary to consider God as a separate entity. The other concept of all pervading Brahman is a bit too much to practise for new devotees. It is like starting a Masters course without going through primary level education. yes , I understand what you mean. I guess, it depends on the personality of the person based on his own interpretation of the meaning 'God realization'.. For ex: Let us say that a person may be devoted to sincerity/honesty/kindness/compassion/etc in his/her work/life (like work is worship) all life and do not believe in the literal term "God" (then separate entity of God does not arise here) ..for those kind of personalities, they may be

interpreted as 'do not believe in God' but indirectly they see that divinity in their own way in everyone. But again, if the person thinking about worship of God as idol and thinking about that same God pervading everywhere..may be confusing in the beginning and so, yes, in the beginning, just having the attitude of something higher existence other than oneself will be the starting step which will be easy to understand as a seperate entity. But after starting that , it may be the better idea to continue self analysis /self inquiry and arrive at their own understanding. Have a nice evening, Regards. sundeep gupta <sundeepgupta1 > wrote: God is mentioned as having form as well as he is formless. In both the states he is omnipotent & omnipresent. He is the supreme source of energy, through which all draw sustenance. But, he is distant from the action of his devotees. He cannot control the reaction of the karma of people; the fruit of the action good or bad has to be borne by the people anyway. My preliminary experience shows that – 1) One cannot accept both form & a formless concept of God at the same time. They are incompatible for dedicated devotion. 2)

Bhakti is of primary importance. Without bhakti, any form of yoga like karma yoga etc, will be soul-less. 3) For majority of the devotees who are attempting God realization; it may be necessary to consider God as a separate entity. The other concept of

all pervading Brahman is a bit too much to practise for new devotees. It is like starting a Masters course without going through primary level education. Shall be grateful for experience from both new and experienced devotees. Sundeep ----------- It is not at all "clear a Super being that is GOD is making things happen." In fact,

this is simply a dogma that has never been proved. Swami Param ----------- God remains witness says many scriptures and saints. Only from human one can elevate to become one with supreme. Christ said, "empty thyself I shall fill it" Means empty your mind from desires and GOD gets filled. Buddha said, Desire is root cause of all evils. Understand thyself first GOD is none other that one's self To raise from Human to divine is ones choice. That is why intellect is given only to humans. One is not born by choice but by his/her Karmas of the past birth. B.Sathyanarayan ----------- Parthasarathi BR <brp.sarathi > wrote: See Firstly what we want does not happen always but what we do not do happen--So its clear a Super being that is GOD is making things happen Its wrong to say he has no MERCY or DAYA as he is full of Karuna or Daya --Again HE never Punishes any one as we tend to think What happens to us is nothing BUT the KARMA we have carried over the births-We get good things for good things done by us and get Bad things for our past misdeeds We can minimise the misery by PRAYER and doing good things now--It will lessen our misery So GOD is the Supervisor and we should do our DUTY for our sake not becos HE is supervising I hope I have tried to clarify some of your points JAI SREE KRISHNA Parthasarathi ---- It is mentioned below that 'Nobody has seen God'. This is not true. I have a personal experience of seeing God in the form of a old lady in a Temple in India. She spoke to me. preetha kanna ---- Hello mr.Sundeep, This is my humble opinion after reading ur message below. In ur message below, these are the couple of sentences: *********************************************************************************** "1.I think as human beings, it is essential to conceptualize God as a lovable supreme being. 2.Nobody has seen God nor one can deny his existence. It is important therefore to conceptualize God on premises which best fits the

scheme of life; such that it makes better human beings, provide for happiness and peace in the world. " *********************************************************************************** (within double quotes" which explains the main subtle meaning of Gita from the different aspect. ) All the vedas/brahma-sootras/upanishads..tell the same that to conceptualize God based on ur own self inquiry (jignnyasa). Any school or religion or spiritual guru (as people may call) or any discussion is only as a starting step in one's own personal quest to understand and anlyze God. Also, Yes, We think about God as lovable supreme being but again..when u consider 'lovable' then the other thing of rewarding Good and punishing bad will not arise at all. Also, another thing is, Sometimes, u may come accross certain knowledge which u may feel right, and sometims u come accross certain knowledge which

u may feel wrong, sometimes u may come accross the knowledge which u may feel maybe or maybe not correct. But continue your analysis and enquiry with respect to your own understanding and based on the ur experiences, you will eventually understand what to do and what not to do easily and based on ur won knowledge agaian, the confusion will slowly dissappear. I heard this and sharing here..Right knowledge comes in only one form but teh wrong knowledge comes in more than one forms. Also, it is ok to get confused..only by confusion, you will start the analysis in ur own way. once u become steady with ur knowledge in urself (which made u analyze only b'case u were confused), the confusions will slowly dissappear. In the world, right knowledge as well as wrong knowledge is present..that is the way the world is..which leads to confusion sometimes. only by ur own enquiry , you will come to know of the truth yourself. so, pelase do not be dis-heartened by confusion

at all. Regards. Bharathi ---- On 8/31/07, sundeep gupta <sundeepgupta1 > wrote: I am a regular reader of this forum. The mails in this forum at times confuse me. May be my intellect level is not that what is required. An example of such a discussion on this board- God is mentioned as pervading the entire universe. He empowers everything. Human beings accomplish any task only through him, without him without one cannot do any work. He is like petrol in a car. He makes the car work, but is not responsible for how the car is driven. Our fate only depends only upon our action. The whole proceeding of life is chain of events, which depends upon our Karma and is executed with mathematical precision. There is no role of softer human attributes like mercy, love etc in the scheme of things. If such is the case, then this God has no personality… He could be

considered as just another form of superior energy like electricity, heat etc. Praying and worshipping such a God is akin to praying to a candle or electric bulb!! One can hardly develop faith and love to such a form of God!!! And the life will be a very-very dry one. I think as human beings, it is essential to conceptualize God as a lovable supreme being. He has a personality, does distinguish between good and bad. He rewards good behaviour or punishes bad one. He listens to us and has interest in our goodwill. Nobody has seen God nor one can deny his existence. It is important therefore to conceptualize God on premises which best fits the scheme of life; such that it makes better human

beings, provide for happiness and peace in the world. Gita Talk Guidelines FROM THE MODERATOR The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions. 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhaks clarify their doubts related to Gita shlokas. For responses to be posted, they must further clarify the understanding of Gitaji. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate the response 3. Please limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. 4. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to twenty line maximum, if possible). 5. Please limit discussions to subject at hand. 6. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations 7. Please do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Kindly do not address

the response to a particular individual, since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to a large readership, not all responses will be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration novices, youth, westerners, non-secterian audience. Please limit the use on only sanskrit words, and provide the english word with sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram

Ram

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[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna ! How can a person decide that what he does is correct . According to Sanatana Dharma , one has to perform his prescribed duties according the vedic scriptures . Om Namo Narayanaya !!! SriKrishnaDasa RajeevNaresh Shah <nikijaydad wrote: I like your explanation. Couple of points --In the 3rd point or step, your mentioned:"For ex: Let us say that a person may be devoted to sincerity/honesty/ kindness/ compassion/ etc in his/her work/life (like work is worship) all life and do not believe in the literal term "God" (then separate entity of God does not arise here) ..for those kind of

personalities, they may be interpreted as 'do not believe in God' but indirectly they see that divinity in their own way in everyone."Would you say these personalities, non-believers or 'niriIshawarvaadi' are practicing 'formless' God? I guess not as they are non-believers by definition. I can relate their qualities, even 'work is worship' attitude with morals and ethics, but would you consider them to be on the spiritual path? - Second point I would like to mention about the 'form and formless' God acceptance simultaneously. I think one an accept it at any stage if you think of sleep. In sleep, you have a form(you don't lose your body), and yet you are formless(you are not aware of the body); you have Gunas(your metabolism is running) and you are Nirgun(you are not affected by any place, person or thing). You are both ways, same is with God.regards....Bharathi <bh_4321 > wrote: SHREE HARI FROM MODERATOR.... FOR ALL GITA TALK CONTRIBUTORS IN FUTURE PLEASE KINDLY KEEP RESPONSES / MESSAGES SHORT AND TO THE POINT. PLEASE RE-READ THE GROUND RULES. RAM RAM This is my humble opinion based on the three steps you have mentioned below. 1) One cannot accept both form & a formless concept of God at the same time. They are

incompatible for dedicated devotion. Yes, I understand that one cannot accept both form & a formless concept of God at the initial stages of understanding/realizing God. Once we understand the basic concept of God is THAT which pervades everything and everywhere, then it does not matter whether God is with form or without form because at that time, whether u are in the temple (paying respect to the idol) or outside the temple paying respect to any animate or inanimate being u come accross since at that time, you completely see that divinity revelling in every being.You see that divinity everywhere. Then, you see "God with the form" in the idol you see in the temple and "God without form" in the same idol as the divine pervading force within the idol. 2) Bhakti is of

primary importance. Without bhakti, any form of yoga like karma yoga etc, will be soul-less. I guess I understand that based on your sentence, you mean..if bhakthi is there..then there is love, then it may be soul-full but in karma-yoga..only action is involved and hence its soul-less. What is the definition of "Bhakthi" with respect to you is more important and I feel that the concept of 'bhakthi' is relative. As per the Gita/vedas/upanishads - we understand that every activity can be divinised. Any mundane activity can be observed and divinised

with the total surrender onto that Supreme. In Bhakthi yoga, yes, it involves complete surrender and Love towards Lord and even there, you just do not ask anything from the God and u just Love the God. In Karma yoga, you just do every action as your

duty with the attitude of surrender to that Supreme without expecting any fruits for the actions.When can anyone NOT expect anything in return but just does the action..in an indirect sense if we deeply analyze, we understand that unless the heart is filled with pure love towards all , you will not be able to do the action without expectation. when one prepares the mind of 'no expectation', then it does not matter for him/her whether he is feeling soul-ful or soul-less since he just does his duty leaving everything onto Lord. But as a third person, looking at these two personalities (bhakthi and karma yogi), you may feel its soul-full or soul-less. Based on your own taste towards life, follow the path which you feel suits you and this bhakthi or karma yoga are the steps to prepare ones mind to be calm(since mind is very diffiucult to be controlled as Lord Krishna replies to Arjuna, "Yes, indeed, Mind is difficult to be controlled but with proper preparation, one can control the mind". Once, the mind is controlled, it becomes calm and ready for the contemplation of the SELF or the ultimate reality and at that point, you just glide into that state of Supreme being (as per many schools of thought..some say..you get merged into that supreme, some say that your entity realizes the supreme but stays seperate etc etc). But again, experience yourself by yourself and do not expect even that too ..whether u get merged or whatever..and surrender that meditation and all practices also onto that

Supreme and thats the ultimate state. 3) For majority of the devotees who are attempting God realization; it may be necessary to consider God as a separate entity. The other concept of all pervading Brahman is a bit too much to practise for new devotees. It is like starting a Masters course without going through primary level education. yes , I understand what you mean. I guess, it depends on the personality of the person based on his own interpretation of the meaning 'God realization'.. For ex: Let us say that a person may be devoted to sincerity/honesty/kindness/compassion/etc in his/her work/life (like work is worship) all life and do not believe in the literal term "God" (then separate entity of God does not arise here) ..for those

kind of personalities, they may be interpreted as 'do not believe in God' but indirectly they see that divinity in their own way in everyone. But again, if the person thinking about worship of God as idol and thinking about that same God pervading everywhere..may be confusing in the beginning and so, yes, in the beginning, just having the attitude of something higher existence other than oneself will be the starting step which will be easy to understand as a seperate entity. But after starting that , it may be the better idea to continue self analysis /self inquiry and arrive at their own understanding. Have a nice evening, Regards. sundeep gupta <sundeepgupta1 > wrote: God is mentioned as having form as well as he is formless. In both the states he is omnipotent & omnipresent. He is the supreme source of energy, through which all draw sustenance. But, he is distant from the action of his devotees. He cannot control the reaction of the karma of people; the fruit of the action good or bad has to be borne by the people anyway. My preliminary experience shows that – 1) One cannot accept both form & a formless concept of God at the same time. They are incompatible for dedicated devotion. 2) Bhakti is of primary importance. Without bhakti, any form of yoga like karma yoga etc, will be soul-less. 3) For majority of the devotees who are attempting God realization; it may be necessary to consider God as a separate entity. The other concept of all pervading Brahman is a bit too much to practise for new devotees. It is like starting a Masters

course without going through primary level education. Shall be grateful for experience from both new and experienced devotees. Sundeep ----------- It is not at all "clear a Super being that is GOD is making things happen." In fact, this is simply a dogma that has never been proved. Swami Param ----------- God remains witness says many scriptures and saints. Only from human one can elevate to become one with supreme. Christ said, "empty thyself I shall fill it" Means empty your mind from desires and GOD gets filled. Buddha said, Desire is root cause of all evils. Understand thyself first GOD is none other that one's self To raise from Human to divine is ones choice. That is why intellect is given only to humans. One is not born by choice but by his/her Karmas of the past birth. B.Sathyanarayan ----------- Parthasarathi BR <brp.sarathi > wrote: See Firstly what we want does not happen

always but what we do not do happen--So its clear a Super being that is GOD is making things happen Its wrong to say he has no MERCY or DAYA as he is full of Karuna or Daya --Again HE never Punishes any one as we tend to think What happens to us is nothing BUT the KARMA we have carried over the births-We get good things for good things done by us and get Bad things for our past misdeeds We can minimise the misery by PRAYER and doing good things now--It will lessen our misery So GOD is the Supervisor and we should do our DUTY for our sake not becos HE is supervising I hope I have tried to clarify some of your points JAI SREE KRISHNA Parthasarathi ---- It is mentioned below that 'Nobody has seen God'. This is not true. I have a personal experience of seeing God in the form of a old lady in a Temple in India. She spoke to me. preetha kanna ---- Hello mr.Sundeep, This is my humble opinion after reading ur message below. In ur message below, these are the couple of sentences: *********************************************************************************** "1.I think as human beings, it is essential to conceptualize God as a lovable supreme being. 2.Nobody has seen God nor one can deny his existence. It is important therefore to conceptualize God on premises which best fits the

scheme of life; such that it makes better human beings, provide for happiness and peace in the world. " *********************************************************************************** (within double quotes" which explains the main subtle meaning of Gita from the different aspect. ) All the vedas/brahma-sootras/upanishads..tell the same that to conceptualize God based on ur own self inquiry (jignnyasa). Any school or religion or spiritual guru (as people may call) or any discussion is only as a starting step in one's own personal quest to understand and anlyze God. Also, Yes, We think about God as lovable supreme being but again..when u consider 'lovable' then the other thing of rewarding Good and punishing bad will not arise at all. Also, another thing is, Sometimes, u may come accross certain knowledge which u may feel right, and sometims u come accross certain knowledge which

u may feel wrong, sometimes u may come accross the knowledge which u may feel maybe or maybe not correct. But continue your analysis and enquiry with respect to your own understanding and based on the ur experiences, you will eventually understand what to do and what not to do easily and based on ur won knowledge agaian, the confusion will slowly dissappear. I heard this and sharing here..Right knowledge comes in only one form but teh wrong knowledge comes in more than one forms. Also, it is ok to get confused..only by confusion, you will start the analysis in ur own way. once u become steady with ur knowledge in urself (which made u analyze only b'case u were confused), the confusions will slowly dissappear. In the world, right knowledge as well as wrong knowledge is present..that is the way the world is..which leads to confusion sometimes. only by ur own enquiry , you will come to know of the truth yourself. so, pelase do not be dis-heartened by confusion

at all. Regards. Bharathi ---- On 8/31/07, sundeep gupta <sundeepgupta1 > wrote: I am a regular reader of this forum. The mails in this forum at times confuse me. May be my intellect level is not that what is required. An example of such a discussion on this board- God is mentioned as pervading the entire universe. He empowers everything. Human beings accomplish any task only through him, without him without one cannot do any work. He is like petrol in a car. He makes the car work, but is not responsible for how the car is driven. Our fate only depends only upon our action. The whole proceeding of life is chain of events, which depends upon our Karma and is executed with mathematical precision. There is no role of softer human attributes like mercy, love etc in the scheme of things. If such is the case, then this God has no personality… He could be considered

as just another form of superior energy like electricity, heat etc. Praying and worshipping such a God is akin to praying to a candle or electric bulb!! One can hardly develop faith and love to such a form of God!!! And the life will be a very-very dry one. I think as human beings, it is essential to conceptualize God as a lovable supreme being. He has a personality, does distinguish between good and bad. He rewards good behaviour or punishes bad one. He listens to us and has interest in our goodwill. Nobody has seen God nor one can deny his existence. It is important therefore to conceptualize God on premises which best fits the scheme of life; such that it makes better human beings, provide for

happiness and peace in the world. Gita Talk Guidelines FROM THE MODERATOR The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions. 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhaks clarify their doubts related to Gita shlokas. For responses to be posted, they must further clarify the understanding of Gitaji. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate the response 3. Please limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. 4. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to twenty line maximum, if possible). 5. Please limit discussions to subject at hand. 6. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations 7. Please do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Kindly do not address the response to a

particular individual, since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to a large readership, not all responses will be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration novices, youth, westerners, non-secterian audience. Please limit the use on only sanskrit words, and provide the english word with sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram

[Guest guest]

Always remember Ram.Understand that everthing belongs to Ram and nothing is yours. With this understanding, offer your mind and intelligence to Ram.Become equanimous (samta) and happy.

Vivek budhi (Ram in your heart) will guide you about proper action. Krishna guarantees that He will take care of you.tasmat sarvesu kalesu

mam anusmara yudhya camayy arpita-mano-buddhirmam evaisyasy asamsayahTherefore,

Arjuna, you should always think of Me and at the same time carry out

your prescribed duty of fighting. With your activities dedicated to Me

and your mind and intelligence fixed on Me, you will attain Me without

doubt. (BG 8.7)ananya cintayanto mamye janah paryupasate

tesam nityabhiyuktanamyoga-ksemam vahamy ahamBut

those who always worship Me with exclusively thinking about Me - to

them I carry what they lack, and I preserve what they have. (BG 9.22)Jai Sri Ram,GauravOn 9/12/07, SriKrishnaDasa Rajeev <

srikrishnadasa_rajeev wrote:

 

 

 

 

Hare Krishna ! How can a person decide that what he does is correct . According to Sanatana Dharma , one has to perform his prescribed duties according the vedic scriptures . Om Namo Narayanaya !!! SriKrishnaDasa Rajeev

[Guest guest]

Loving Divine Swami Param,

Humble pranams.

I am interested in knowing your view points, could you please provide your proofs of non-existance of God?

In few emails you have mentioned such things, so I am sure you must have some reasons to share.

Thanks.

humble regards.

always at Thy Lotus Feet

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

----------- It is not at all " clear a Super being that is GOD is making things happen. " In fact, this is simply a dogma that has never been proved.

Swami Param

-----------

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

It is quite simple.

Whatever action/thought gives you inner satisfaction and happiness that is Good.

If you feel miserable or sad or unhappy or unsatisfied after doing something that is bad....

From this prinicple, one can immediately know whether he is doing right or wrong...

 

Catch is to ask yourself Honestly and get the answer at the feelings level.

Don't let the mind start its summersaulting and create confusion...

Happy thoughts - Sushil

 

On 9/12/07, SriKrishnaDasa Rajeev <srikrishnadasa_rajeev wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hare Krishna !

 

How can a person decide that what he does is correct . According to Sanatana Dharma , one has to perform his prescribed duties according the vedic scriptures .

 

 

 

Om Namo Narayanaya !!!

 

SriKrishnaDasa Rajeev

[Guest guest]

Friends, I appreciate the query.

Our concept of God decides the quality of our life. If our / society's or

human beings's concept of God is wrong then quality of life will

suffer.

My views being contrary to the normal ,I apolise in advance.

 

When we examine our experience, we may come to know the truth regarding God.

 

Our concept of God is based on greed and fear. We have decided

what is wrong and right or what will please or anger God and have

framed a concept of God. Our expectation from God is too much.

God

1)Does not expect anything from human beings.

2)God has given free choice to human being and does not have

perference of one choice over other and does not punish or reward

human being for whatever is chosen.

3)God is non-interfering in the functioning of law of karma.Being

powerful and non-interfering is the quality of God.He is neither

kind nor cruel.

4)God has not labeled anything as wrong or right. It is human being

collectively has termed what is wrong or right.

5)God does not do any thing ,does not motivate anyone for anything

or create coincidences.(14th Verse of 5th Chapter)

6)God is freedom, but our concept of god has imprisoned us.

 

Our problem is we think we know what God requires from us and are

torn in the conflict.

 

regards and love

 

A K Jain

 

 

, " Sushil Jain " <scheel.skj

wrote:

>

> It is quite simple.

> Whatever action/thought gives you inner satisfaction and happiness

that is

> Good.

> If you feel miserable or sad or unhappy or unsatisfied after doing

something

> that is bad....

> From this prinicple, one can immediately know whether he is doing

right or

> wrong...

>

> Catch is to ask yourself Honestly and get the answer at the

feelings level.

>

> Don't let the mind start its summersaulting and create confusion...

>

> Happy thoughts - Sushil

>

>

> On 9/12/07, SriKrishnaDasa Rajeev <srikrishnadasa_rajeev

wrote:

> >

> > Hare Krishna !

> >

> > How can a person decide that what he does is correct . According

to

> > Sanatana Dharma , one has to perform his prescribed duties

according the

> > vedic scriptures .

> >

> >

> > Om Namo Narayanaya !!!

> >

> > SriKrishnaDasa Rajeev

> >

> > *Naresh Shah <nikijaydad* wrote:

> >

> > I like your explanation. Couple of points --

> >

> > In the 3rd point or step, your mentioned:

> > " For ex: Let us say that a person may be devoted to

sincerity/honesty/

> > kindness/ compassion/ etc in his/her work/life (like work is

worship) all

> > life and do not believe in the literal term " God " (then

separate entity of

> > God does not arise here) ..for those kind of personalities,

they may be

> > interpreted as 'do not believe in God' but indirectly they see

that divinity

> > in their own way in everyone. "

> >

> > Would you say these personalities, non-believers

or 'niriIshawarvaadi' are

> > practicing 'formless' God? I guess not as they are non-believers

by

> > definition. I can relate their qualities, even 'work is worship'

attitude

> > with morals and ethics, but would you consider them to be on the

spiritual

> > path?

> >

> > - Second point I would like to mention about the 'form and

formless' God

> > acceptance simultaneously. I think one an accept it at any stage

if you

> > think of sleep. In sleep, you have a form(you don't lose your

body), and yet

> > you are formless(you are not aware of the body); you have Gunas

(your

> > metabolism is running) and you are Nirgun(you are not affected

by any place,

> > person or thing). You are both ways, same is with God.

> >

> > regards....

> >

> > *Bharathi <bh_4321* wrote:

> >

> > SHREE HARI FROM MODERATOR.... FOR ALL GITA TALK CONTRIBUTORS IN

FUTURE

> > PLEASE KINDLY KEEP RESPONSES / MESSAGES SHORT AND TO THE POINT.

PLEASE

> > RE-READ THE GROUND RULES. RAM RAM

> > This is my humble opinion based on the three steps you have

mentioned

> > below.

> >

> > 1) One cannot accept both form & a formless concept of God

at the

> > same time. They are incompatible for dedicated devotion.

> > Yes, I understand that one cannot accept both form & a formless

concept of

> > God at the initial stages of understanding/realizing God. Once

we

> > understand the basic concept of God is THAT which pervades

everything and

> > everywhere, then it does not matter whether God is with form or

without form

> > because at that time, whether u are in the temple (paying

respect to the

> > idol) or outside the temple paying respect to any animate or

inanimate being

> > u come accross since at that time, you completely see that

divinity

> > revelling in every being.You see that divinity everywhere. Then,

you see

> > " God with the form " in the idol you see in the temple and " God

without

> > form " in the same idol as the divine pervading force within the

idol.

> >

> > 2) Bhakti is of primary importance. Without bhakti, any

form of yoga

> > like karma yoga etc, will be soul-less.

> > I guess I understand that based on your sentence, you mean..if

bhakthi is

> > there..then there is love, then it may be soul-full but in

karma-yoga..only

> > action is involved and hence its soul-less.

> > What is the definition of " Bhakthi " with respect to you is more

important

> > and I feel that the concept of 'bhakthi' is relative. As per the

> > Gita/vedas/upanishads - we understand that every activity can be

divinised.

> > Any mundane activity can be observed and divinised with the

total surrender

> > onto that Supreme.

> >

> > In Bhakthi yoga, yes, it involves complete surrender and Love

towards

> > Lord and even there, you just do not ask anything from the God

and u just

> > Love the God.

> >

> > In Karma yoga, you just do every action as your duty with the

attitude of

> > surrender to that Supreme without expecting any fruits for the

> > actions.When can anyone NOT expect anything in return but just

does the

> > action..in an indirect sense if we deeply analyze, we understand

that unless

> > the heart is filled with pure love towards all , you will not be

able to

> > do the action without expectation. when one prepares the mind

of 'no

> > expectation', then it does not matter for him/her whether he is

feeling

> > soul-ful or soul-less since he just does his duty leaving

everything onto

> > Lord. But as a third person, looking at these two personalities

(bhakthi and

> > karma yogi), you may feel its soul-full or soul-less.

> >

> > Based on your own taste towards life, follow the path which you

feel suits

> > you and this bhakthi or karma yoga are the steps to prepare ones

mind to be

> > calm(since mind is very diffiucult to be controlled as Lord

Krishna replies

> > to Arjuna, " Yes, indeed, Mind is difficult to be controlled but

with proper

> > preparation, one can control the mind " . Once, the mind is

controlled, it

> > becomes calm and ready for the contemplation of the SELF or the

ultimate

> > reality and at that point, you just glide into that state of

Supreme being

> > (as per many schools of thought..some say..you get merged into

that

> > supreme, some say that your entity realizes the supreme but

stays seperate

> > etc etc). But again, experience yourself by yourself and do not

expect even

> > that too ..whether u get merged or whatever..and surrender that

meditation

> > and all practices also onto that Supreme and thats the ultimate

state.

> >

> >

> > 3) For majority of the devotees who are attempting God

realization;

> > it may be necessary to consider God as a separate entity. The

other concept

> > of all pervading Brahman is a bit too much to practise for new

devotees. It

> > is like starting a Masters course without going through primary

level

> > education.

> > yes , I understand what you mean. I guess, it depends on the

personality

> > of the person based on his own interpretation of the meaning 'God

> > realization'.. For ex: Let us say that a person may be devoted to

> > sincerity/honesty/kindness/compassion/etc in his/her work/life

(like work

> > is worship) all life and do not believe in the literal

term " God " (then

> > separate entity of God does not arise here) ..for those kind of

> > personalities, they may be interpreted as 'do not believe in

God' but

> > indirectly they see that divinity in their own way in everyone.

But again,

> > if the person thinking about worship of God as idol and

thinking about that

> > same God pervading everywhere..may be confusing in the beginning

and so,

> > yes, in the beginning, just having the attitude of something

higher

> > existence other than oneself will be the starting step which

will be easy to

> > understand as a seperate entity. But after starting that , it

may be the

> > better idea to continue self analysis /self inquiry and arrive

at their own

> > understanding.

> >

> >

> > Have a nice evening,

> > Regards.

> >

> >

> > *sundeep gupta <sundeepgupta1* wrote:

> >

> > God is mentioned as having form as well as he is formless. In

both the

> > states he is omnipotent & omnipresent. He is the supreme source

of energy,

> > through which all draw sustenance. But, he is distant from the

action of his

> > devotees. He cannot control the reaction of the karma of people;

the fruit

> > of the action good or bad has to be borne by the people anyway.

> > My preliminary experience shows that –

> > 1) One cannot accept both form & a formless concept of God

at the

> > same time. They are incompatible for dedicated devotion.

> > 2) Bhakti is of primary importance. Without bhakti, any

form of yoga

> > like karma yoga etc, will be soul-less.

> > 3) For majority of the devotees who are attempting God

realization;

> > it may be necessary to consider God as a separate entity. The

other concept

> > of all pervading Brahman is a bit too much to practise for new

devotees. It

> > is like starting a Masters course without going through primary

level

> > education.

> > Shall be grateful for experience from both new and experienced

devotees.

> > Sundeep

> >

> > --------------------------------

------------

> > It is not at all " clear a Super being that is GOD is making

things

> > happen. " In fact, this is simply a dogma that has never been

proved. Swami

> > Param --------------------------

------------------

> > God remains witness says many scriptures and saints. Only from

human one

> > can elevate to become one with supreme. Christ said, " empty

thyself I shall

> > fill it " Means empty your mind from desires and GOD gets filled.

Buddha

> > said, Desire is root cause of all evils. Understand thyself

first GOD is

> > none other that one's self To raise from Human to divine is ones

choice.

> > That is why intellect is given only to humans. One is not born

by choice but

> > by his/her Karmas of the past birth. B.Sathyanarayan ------------

--------------------------------

> > *Parthasarathi BR <brp.sarathi* wrote:

> >

> > See Firstly what we want does not happen always but what we do

not do

> > happen--So its clear a Super being that is GOD is making things

happen

> >

> > Its wrong to say he has no MERCY or DAYA as he is full of

Karuna or Daya

> > --Again HE never Punishes any one as we tend to think

> >

> > What happens to us is nothing BUT the KARMA we have carried

over the

> > births-We get good things for good things done by us and get Bad

things for

> > our past misdeeds

> >

> > We can minimise the misery by PRAYER and doing good things now--

It will

> > lessen our misery

> >

> > So GOD is the Supervisor and we should do our DUTY for our sake

not becos

> > HE is supervising

> >

> > I hope I have tried to clarify some of your points

> > JAI SREE KRISHNA

> > Parthasarathi

> >

> >

> > --------------------------------

-----------------

> > It is mentioned below that 'Nobody has seen God'. This is not

true. I have

> > a personal experience of seeing God in the form of a old lady in

a Temple in

> > India. She spoke to me. preetha kanna ---------------------------

----------------------

> > Hello mr.Sundeep, This is my humble opinion after reading ur

message

> > below. In ur message below, these are the couple of sentences:

*********************************************************************

**************

> > " 1.I think as human beings, it is essential to conceptualize God

as a

> > lovable supreme being. 2.Nobody has seen God nor one can deny his

> > existence. It is important therefore to conceptualize God on

premises which

> > best fits the scheme of life; such that it makes better human

beings,

> > provide for happiness and peace in the world. "

*********************************************************************

**************

> > (within double quotes " which explains the main subtle meaning of

Gita from

> > the different aspect. ) All the vedas/brahma-

sootras/upanishads..tell the

> > same that to conceptualize God based on ur own self inquiry

(jignnyasa). Any

> > school or religion or spiritual guru (as people may call) or any

discussion

> > is only as a starting step in one's own personal quest to

understand and

> > anlyze God. Also, Yes, We think about God as lovable supreme

being but

> > again..when u consider 'lovable' then the other thing of

rewarding Good and

> > punishing bad will not arise at all. Also, another thing is,

Sometimes, u

> > may come accross certain knowledge which u may feel right, and

sometims u

> > come accross certain knowledge which u may feel wrong, sometimes

u may come

> > accross the knowledge which u may feel maybe or maybe not

correct. But

> > continue your analysis and enquiry with respect to your own

understanding

> > and based on the ur experiences, you will eventually understand

what to do

> > and what not to do easily and based on ur won knowledge agaian,

the

> > confusion will slowly dissappear. I heard this and sharing

here..Right

> > knowledge comes in only one form but teh wrong knowledge comes

in more than

> > one forms. Also, it is ok to get confused..only by confusion,

you will

> > start the analysis in ur own way. once u become steady with ur

knowledge in

> > urself (which made u analyze only b'case u were confused), the

confusions

> > will slowly dissappear. In the world, right knowledge as well as

wrong

> > knowledge is present..that is the way the world is..which leads

to confusion

> > sometimes. only by ur own enquiry , you will come to know of the

truth

> > yourself. so, pelase do not be dis-heartened by confusion at

all. Regards.

> > Bharathi -----------------------

--------------------------

> > On 8/31/07, sundeep gupta <sundeepgupta1 wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > I am a regular reader of this forum. The mails in this forum

at times

> > > confuse me.

> > > May be my intellect level is not that what is required.

> > >

> > > An example of such a discussion on this board-

> > > God is mentioned as pervading the entire universe. He empowers

> > > everything. Human beings accomplish any task only through him,

without him

> > > without one cannot do any work. He is like petrol in a car. He

makes the car

> > > work, but is not responsible for how the car is driven.

> > > Our fate only depends only upon our action. The whole

proceeding of life

> > > is chain of events, which depends upon our Karma and is

executed with

> > > mathematical precision. There is no role of softer human

attributes like

> > > mercy, love etc in the scheme of things.

> > >

> > > If such is the case, then this God has no personality… He

could be

> > > considered as just another form of superior energy like

electricity, heat

> > > etc. Praying and worshipping such a God is akin to praying to

a candle or

> > > electric bulb!! One can hardly develop faith and love to such

a form of

> > > God!!! And the life will be a very-very dry one.

> > >

> > > I think as human beings, it is essential to conceptualize God

as a

> > > lovable supreme being. He has a personality, does distinguish

between good

> > > and bad. He rewards good behaviour or punishes bad one. He

listens to us and

> > > has interest in our goodwill.

> > >

> > > Nobody has seen God nor one can deny his existence. It is

important

> > > therefore to conceptualize God on premises which best fits the

scheme of

> > > life; such that it makes better human beings, provide for

happiness and

> > > peace in the world.

> > >

> > > Gita Talk Guidelines FROM THE MODERATOR The following are the

guidelines

> > > for Gita-Talk discussions. 1. Purpose of the group is to help

Sadhaks

> > > clarify their doubts related to Gita shlokas. For responses to

be posted,

> > > they must further clarify the understanding of Gitaji. 2.

Wherever

> > > possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate the

> > > response 3. Please limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs

etc. 4.

> > > Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to

twenty line

> > > maximum, if possible). 5. Please limit discussions to subject

at hand. 6.

> > > Please do not include links to other sites or other

organizations 7.

> > > Please do not include your personal information such as phone

number,

> > > address etc. 8. Kindly do not address the response to a

particular

> > > individual, since the message is going to the entire group. 9.

Due to a

> > > large readership, not all responses will be posted. 10.

Moderator at his

> > > discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or

not appropriate

> > > for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into

> > > consideration novices, youth, westerners, non-secterian

audience. Please

> > > limit the use on only sanskrit words, and provide the english

word with

> > > sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram

> > >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Can anyone PROVE that Love is real? Or is it just emotional chemical reactions? The same proofs that are demanded regarding God can also be applied to Love. Where is the proof that Love is real? VManjula Patel <manjumaa wrote: Loving Divine Swami Param, Humble pranams. I am interested in knowing your view points, could you please provide your proofs of non-existance of God? In few emails you have mentioned such things, so I am sure you must have some reasons to share. Thanks. humble

regards. always at Thy Lotus Feet ----------- It is not at all "clear a Super being that is GOD is making things happen." In fact, this is simply a dogma that has never been proved. Swami Param

[Guest guest]

Jai Sri Ram.No external environment in the material domain can prove God (Love). One can only realize God (Love)when one seeks God eagerly and sincerely. Ultimately, it is only by His grace that, one can realize God (Love).

Jai Sri Ram,Gaurav Mittal

Vrndavan Parker <vrnparker

> wrote:

 

Can anyone PROVE that Love is real? Or is it just emotional chemical reactions? The same proofs that are demanded regarding God can also be applied to Love. Where is the proof that Love is real? V

Manjula Patel <manjumaa wrote: Loving Divine Swami Param,

Humble pranams. I am interested in knowing your view points, could you please provide your proofs of non-existance of God? In few emails you have mentioned such things, so I am sure you must have some reasons to share.

Thanks. humble

regards. always at Thy Lotus Feet

----------- It is not at all " clear a Super being that is GOD is making things happen. " In fact, this is simply a dogma that has never been proved. Swami Param

[Guest guest]

In Narada Bhakti sutra, Naradaji gives definition of bhakti given by Sage Sandilya:Bhakti is that which gives happiness from within.Similarly, Srimad Bhagavatam 1 canto 2 chapter verse 6:

The duty is to attain love of Sri Krishna which is uninterrupted and unmotivated. Such bhakti completely satisfies the self.In summary, bhakti gives us inner satisfaction.Also, what gives us inner satisfaction is bhakti.

So, easiest way to know what is good is to see whether it gives us inner happiness.Jai Sri Ram,GauravOn 9/14/07, Sushil Jain <

scheel.skj wrote:

 

It is quite simple.

Whatever action/thought gives you inner satisfaction and happiness that is Good.

If you feel miserable or sad or unhappy or unsatisfied after doing something that is bad....

From this prinicple, one can immediately know whether he is doing right or wrong...

 

Catch is to ask yourself Honestly and get the answer at the feelings level.

Don't let the mind start its summersaulting and create confusion...

Happy thoughts - Sushil

 

On 9/12/07, SriKrishnaDasa Rajeev <

srikrishnadasa_rajeev wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hare Krishna !

 

How can a person decide that what he does is correct . According to Sanatana Dharma , one has to perform his prescribed duties according the vedic scriptures .

 

 

 

Om Namo Narayanaya !!!

 

SriKrishnaDasa Rajeev

[Guest guest]

Dear Sadhak,Ashok > Our concept of God is based on greed and fear. Gaurav > Realized souls conception of God is not based on fear or greed. You cannot generalize it.Ashok > We have decided what is wrong and right or what will please or anger God and have framed a concept of God. Our expectation from God is too much.

Gaurav > Srimad Bhagavatam says that bhakti is that which is unmotivated (ahaituki SB 1.2.6). One should not have any expectations from God. Due to greed, we expect from him. Bhagavad Gita focusses on niskama karma i.e. action without any fruitive desires or expectations.Ashok > Does not expect anything from human beings.Gaurav > Correct.Ashok > God has given free choice to human being and does not have

perference of one choice over other and does not punish or reward

human being for whatever is chosen.Gaurav > You are correct. God does not punish anyone. But a person may come and kill you family due to lust or greed. If law is properly followed in the country, then that person will be punished by government. Similarly, higher laws of karma are followed by devatas (yama raj) in this material world. God is beyond material domain. So, from non material spiritual domain, material domain is illusory. It is like a dream. For example, our self is not this body. But we misidentify ourselves with body. So, from perspective of soul there is no happiness or distress. Similarly, from perspective of God there is no punishment or reward. Ashok> God is non-interfering in the functioning of law of karma.Being

powerful and non-interfering is the quality of God.He is neither

kind nor cruel.Gaurav > Yes. From perspective of spiritual domain, God or soul, there is no happiness or distress. Soul is untouched by material world. So, God is neither kind or cruel when we get pain or pleasure as in reality they don't exist.

Ashok > God is freedom, but our concept of god has imprisoned us.Gaurav > Understanding of our self as beyond matter and body and understanding of God frees us from material domain. So, it can never imprison us. If something imprisons us, then it is not correct understand of self or God.

Jai Sri Ram,Gaurav

[Guest guest]

So if love is chemical reaction...... then who is the cause of all the chemical reactions and who is the ultimtae cause of all laws, actions and reactions. Who created the first law ? To lift a pen from the table involves a complex coordination of so many complex physical and mental processes. Then talk of this vast universe which is astounding and complex beyond anyone's imagination with inexplicable coordination of infinite amount of processes. Who is that power ensuring such a mind boggling coordination ? Is it an accidental coincidence ? Being dismissive and trivializing love as a chemical reaction is not helpful...that reality which makes you ask the question "Is there God ?" that reality itself is God. Kind regards Devinder

[Guest guest]

Loving Divine,

Humble pranams.

I think we are saying the same thing but here's my clarification...

One can not prove Love is real or love is not real. It is really individual perception. If you call it the emotional chemical reaction, it doesn't wipe out the feeling named/called love. Chemical reaction is the process and love is the ultimate outcome. Same is the teachings of Lord. If one practices Gitaji (Bhakti, Jyaan, Karma - you may call these chemical reactions) in real life, the outcome of this practices is God (Love).. Who focuses on me alone can get me, as Lord says in Gitaji. Do you see my point about individual perception? That's all what I was trying to convey to Swami Param, instead of asking others to prove God exist or it is dogma, please provide his view point also or share his experience on what basis he concluded it as a counter point.

 

 

It is difficult to prove either way - God exist & God doesn't exist! People on this discussion group have experienced something and they have responded to Swami Param in past also on this topic. It is a matter of perception and not discussion, No matter how much one explains what sweetness in the sugar is, one is never going to understand it until one tastes it, right? So whoever has perceived this sweetness and if they are calling it God, what's wrong with it? Gitaji is just showing various ways how one can reach to that sweetness, to taste it or not it is up to you, right? After tasting it to call it sweet or not that is also up to you right? Proofs are given to the objective world, there are no proofs for the subjectivity, it is all about perception (anubhuti - which is different than anubhav).

 

Another way to look at it...

Upanishads have also provided both views 'Neti Neti' (not this, not this...) and 'Aeti, Aeti' (All this...) is one and the same. In other words, if one says, God is all inclusive or all exclusive, has perceived the same...! So if I call God exist and if Swami Param says it doesn't, it is one and the same thing, the process to conclude (enquiry) is different, we may call the outcome something different too according to our understanding of the words (Brahman, God, Conciousness, Krishna, Rama, Cosmic Energy or Swami Param :-)) but if we closely examine it, in reality we are talking about one and the same thing...!!!

 

 

Whatever you experience with the senses is not God but whatever remains after negating is God (Brahman) or whatever you experience with senses feels/looks real because 'The Real' is present in all - nothing can exist without it (even the experience of the senses) - just like space is the basis for the existent/non-existant. Aren't we talking about one and the same here?

 

 

So when Gitaji says Vasudevam Sarvam - All is God, it is inclusive approach. Words are given for communication only and God is beyond words. Once you perceive what God is, all words loose their meaning as it is all our (our is inclusive of me, you and the rest of the society) minds' individual or collective creation (Yoga Vashistha). One has to free oneself from all of these creations and so one may call it non existent or dogma or bondage. Once perceived (tatva darshan), whatever existed prior to just that moment can all be now called dogma, only after dawing of that realization and not prior.

 

 

Hope I have made my point clear. It is better to perceive what Truth is than argue over names - we loose the essence of the topic. I took the liberty of proving what I was asking Swami Param to do, sorry about that. Hope I have not confused the matter further. Swami Param can still share his experience.

 

 

God exist for those who believe in God. God doesn't exist for those who don't believe. But in reality, Something exist whether you call IT God or something different, is worth exploring.

Thanks,

humble regards,

always at Thy Divine Feet

 

On 9/19/07, Vrndavan Parker <vrnparker wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

Can anyone PROVE that Love is real? Or is it just emotional chemical reactions? The same proofs that are demanded regarding God can also be applied to Love. Where is the proof that Love is real? V

Manjula Patel <manjumaa wrote:

 

 

Loving Divine Swami Param,

Humble pranams.

I am interested in knowing your view points, could you please provide your proofs of non-existance of God?

In few emails you have mentioned such things, so I am sure you must have some reasons to share.

Thanks.

humble regards.

always at Thy Lotus Feet

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-----------

It is not at all " clear a Super being that is GOD is making things happen. " In fact, this is simply a dogma that has never been proved.

 

Swami Param

[Guest guest]

Expressed so beautifully. It is Lord"s intelligence only that manifests as natural laws that govern the very existence of this creation. Thanx

With Regards

Anil Aggarwal

--------- DEVINDER AHUJA

12.0pt'>So if love is chemical reaction...... then who is the cause of all

the chemical reactions and who is the ultimtae cause of all laws, actions and

reactions. Who created the first law ?

 

 

 

 

To lift a pen from the table involves a complex coordination of so many

complex physical and mental processes. Then talk of this vast universe

which is astounding and complex beyond anyone's imagination with inexplicable

coordination of infinite amount of processes. Who is that power ensuring such a

mind boggling coordination ? Is it an accidental coincidence ?

 

 

 

 

 

Being dismissive and trivializing love as a chemical reaction is not

helpful...that reality which makes you ask the question " Is there God

? " that reality itself is God.

 

 

 

 

 

Kind regards

 

 

Devinder

[Guest guest]

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Is mother's Love for a child simply emotional chemical

reaction? I think Love is the only real and

experiential of our being! I exist beyond a shadow of

doubt as self evident/self revealing SELF! And if I

remain open to inquire deeply into the nature of this

" I " , I will discover that this I is not my individual

body-mind-intellect-memory-beliefs-relationship etc

etc. It is LOVE I experience within " me " as ME, Purna,

lacking nothing, desiring nothing and yet Total Bliss

free of any limitations by time, space and causality! I

mean it is SO Real it will remove all doubts about

existence of God or love!

We have to remember This is Experiential, and doesn't

matter what we call it, God , Love, Swami or whatever!

If we don't need to describe or teach to people, we

need not even say a word! That's why they say " all

names are His names, and yet He is nameless " . God is

not a thing that can be legitimatelly proved or

disproved, rather it is Experience of Total

Unconditional LOVE we need not prove!

 

Pratap with Namaskaras!

--------------------------------

 

--- Vrndavan Parker <vrnparker wrote:

 

> Can anyone PROVE that Love is real? Or is it just

> emotional chemical reactions? The same proofs that

> are demanded regarding God can also be applied to

> Love. Where is the proof that Love is real?

> V

>

> Manjula Patel <manjumaa wrote:

>

> Loving Divine Swami Param,

> Humble pranams.

> I am interested in knowing your view points, could

> you please provide your proofs of non-existance of

> God?

> In few emails you have mentioned such things, so I

> am sure you must have some reasons to share.

> Thanks.

> humble regards.

> always at Thy Lotus Feet

>

>

-----------

>

> It is not at all " clear a Super being that is GOD is

> making things happen. " In fact, this is simply a

> dogma that has never been proved.

>

> Swami Param

>

>

-----------

[Guest guest]

The five senses that we have help us to 'experience' the things that are 'outside' us. To see the God or 'Brahm' we need to do introspection and these senses will not be of any use. Only 'Antahkaranams' will help us experiece the bliss of 'Atma Shodhan'.

 

Regards,

K. Ramapathi Rao

 

-

Gaurav Mittal

Thursday, September 20, 2007 8:59 AM

Re: Concept of God.............

 

 

Jai Sri Ram.No external environment in the material domain can prove God (Love). One can only realize God (Love)when one seeks God eagerly and sincerely. Ultimately, it is only by His grace that, one can realize God (Love). Jai Sri Ram,Gaurav MittalVrndavan Parker <vrnparker > wrote:

 

Can anyone PROVE that Love is real? Or is it just emotional chemical reactions? The same proofs that are demanded regarding God can also be applied to Love. Where is the proof that Love is real? V Manjula Patel <manjumaa > wrote:

 

 

 

Loving Divine Swami Param,

Humble pranams.

I am interested in knowing your view points, could you please provide your proofs of non-existance of God?

In few emails you have mentioned such things, so I am sure you must have some reasons to share.

Thanks.

humble regards.

always at Thy Lotus Feet

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-----------

It is not at all "clear a Super being that is GOD is making things happen." In fact, this is simply a dogma that has never been proved.

 

Swami Param

[Guest guest]

God is Faith & Trust because every creature survives on faith and trust. Be it

humans, or plants or animals. That is why God is Supreme, Omniscient,

omnipresent and omnipotent. He is Truth. He is the Supreme Goal of the

Universe. He does not discriminate. He sees everyone equally alike. He is the

path to ultimate success that is salvation. Everything emanates fromHim and He

is the concept of everything in this Universe. Regards, N. Panda

------------------------------

Devinder Bhai,

>

> Expressed so beautifully. It is Lord " s intelligence only that manifests

> as

> narutal laws that govern the very existence of this reation. Thanx

>

>With Regards

>

> Anil Aggarwal

>

> On

> Behalf

> Of DEVINDER AHUJA

> Thursday, September 20, 2007 4:07 AM

>

> Re: Concept of God.............

>

>

> So if love is chemical reaction...... then who is the cause of all the

> chemical reactions and who is the ultimtae cause of all laws, actions and

> reactions. Who created the first law ?

>

> To lift a pen from the table involves a complex coordination of so many

> complex physical and mental processes. Then talk of this vast universe

> which

> is astounding and complex beyond anyone's imagination with inexplicable

> coordination of infinite amount of processes. Who is that power ensuring

> such a mind boggling coordination ? Is it an accidental coincidence ?

>

> Being dismissive and trivializing love as a chemical reaction is not

> helpful...that reality which makes you ask the question " Is there God ? "

> that reality itself is God.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Devinder

>

[Guest guest]

Very well put certainly. Have full faith and pray often, while sitting, walking, driving, going to bed or getting up or whenever in trouble and he will not fail you. Also do not forget that at times God denies in mercy for your own good.

JAI SITARAMJIKI, JAI RADHA KRISHNJIKI, JAI VEER HANUMAN On 10/11/07, npanda <

npanda wrote:

 

God is Faith & Trust because every creature survives on faith and trust. Be it humans, or plants or animals. That is why God is Supreme, Omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. He is Truth. He is the Supreme Goal of the Universe. He does not discriminate. He sees everyone equally alike. He is the path to ultimate success that is salvation. Everything emanates fromHim and He is the concept of everything in this Universe. Regards, N. Panda

-------------------------

Devinder Bhai,

>

> Expressed so beautifully. It is Lord " s intelligence only that manifests

> as

> narutal laws that govern the very existence of this reation. Thanx

>

>With Regards

>

> Anil Aggarwal

>

> [

] On

> Behalf

> Of DEVINDER AHUJA

> Thursday, September 20, 2007 4:07 AM

>

> Re: Concept of God.............

>

>

> So if love is chemical reaction...... then who is the cause of all the

> chemical reactions and who is the ultimtae cause of all laws, actions and

> reactions. Who created the first law ?

>

> To lift a pen from the table involves a complex coordination of so many

> complex physical and mental processes. Then talk of this vast universe

> which

> is astounding and complex beyond anyone's imagination with inexplicable

> coordination of infinite amount of processes. Who is that power ensuring

> such a mind boggling coordination ? Is it an accidental coincidence ?

>

> Being dismissive and trivializing love as a chemical reaction is not

> helpful...that reality which makes you ask the question " Is there God ? "

> that reality itself is God.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Devinder

[Guest guest]

Namaste Can you please expand on anthakaranam. What is it? Thanks Chandrika Joshi"Mr. Rao" <dbpl wrote: The five senses that we have help us to 'experience' the things that are 'outside' us. To see the God or 'Brahm' we need to do introspection and these senses will not be of any use. Only 'Antahkaranams' will help us experiece the bliss of 'Atma Shodhan'. Regards, K. Ramapathi Rao - Gaurav Mittal Thursday, September 20, 2007 8:59 AM Re: Concept of God............. Jai Sri Ram.No external environment in the material domain can prove God (Love). One can only realize God (Love)when one seeks God eagerly and sincerely. Ultimately,

it is only by His grace that, one can realize God (Love). Jai Sri Ram,Gaurav MittalVrndavan Parker <vrnparker > wrote: Can anyone PROVE that Love is real? Or is it just emotional chemical reactions? The same proofs that are demanded regarding God can also be applied to Love. Where is the proof that Love is real? V Manjula Patel <manjumaa > wrote: Loving Divine Swami Param, Humble pranams. I am interested in knowing your view points, could you please provide your proofs of non-existance of God? In few emails you have mentioned such things, so I am sure you must have some

reasons to share. Thanks. humble regards. always at Thy Lotus Feet ----------- It is not at all "clear a Super being that is GOD is making things happen." In fact, this is simply a dogma that has never been proved. Swami Param

[Guest guest]

Anatah karan is inner (antah) ear (kaarn). Just as we do have external ear for sounds from environment, similarly, the ear that listens to inner voice is called antah karan.

Bhagwat Gita says that stay in solitude rather than engaged in interaction. Learning is an act of interaction and thinking in act of solitude. Both are thus opposite to each other. Learning is like eating, thinking is digesting. Learning is called Sang Dosha, and thinking is Upasana. Upasana means, scrutiny of existing thoughts and remove impurity. For references: 'sang dosh vevargayet' means

avoid learning, and 'nitya youkta upsate' means, continue to think as I do.

Thinking is not having taste or preferences just as stomach digests everything without caring for taste of food but learners do have taste and preferences. For this reason, Sri Krishna introduces Himself in Vibhuti yoga as 'fire of stomach' or thinking energy that destroys ignorance in thought by digestion / thinking. This 'thinking' is initiated by antah karan. These uncountable references you can find in BG that related to importance of antahkarana.

Sri Hari

regards

KG

----

Chiitta (conciousness)-buddhi (intellect)-mana (mind)-ahamkaara (ego)

constitute antahkaraNa.

 

K.S. tAtAchAr

----

What is "Antahkarana"

 

The word 'mind', especially in the psychology of the West, is used to signify a general operation of the psyche inside, including understanding, willing and feeling. The word 'mind' is a general term in Western psychology, but in the psychology of Yoga, a more detailed analysis has been made. 'Mind' is not a proper English translation of what the Yoga calls 'Chitta', especially in the system of Patanjali. The entire mind-stuff is called Chitta. It is better to use the word 'psyche' instead of the word 'mind', because the former denotes a larger composite structure than the single function indicated by the word 'mind'. Mind is that which thinks in an indeterminate manner; the intellect is that which thinks in a determinate manner; the ego is that which asserts the individuality of one's own self. There are other functions of the psyche such as memory, often associated with the subconscious level. It is impossible for anyone to be aware that something is outside, unless there is an isolated thinking or an individualising principle, known in the Vedanta psychology as the Antahkarana, and in the Yoga psychology of Patanjali as Chitta. "Antahkarana" is a Sanskrit term, which literally translated into English, would mean, "the internal organ". That is perhaps the best way we can put it in English. The internal organ, by which we cognise or perceive things outside, is the Antahkarana.

 

P.K.LAMBA

----

On Dec 1, 2007 4:25 PM, chandrika joshi <> wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Namaste

 

Can you please expand on anthakaranam. What is it?

 

Thanks

 

Chandrika Joshi " Mr. Rao " <dbpl wrote:

 

 

 

The five senses that we have help us to 'experience' the things that are 'outside' us. To see the God or 'Brahm' we need to do introspection and these senses will not be of any use. Only 'Antahkaranams' will help us experiece the bliss of 'Atma Shodhan'.

 

 

Regards,

K. Ramapathi Rao

 

-

Gaurav Mittal

Thursday, September 20, 2007 8:59 AM

Re: Concept of God.............

 

 

Jai Sri Ram.No external environment in the material domain can prove God (Love). One can only realize God (Love)when one seeks God eagerly and sincerely. Ultimately, it is only by His grace that, one can realize God (Love). Jai Sri Ram,Gaurav MittalVrndavan Parker <vrnparker > wrote:

 

Can anyone PROVE that Love is real? Or is it just emotional chemical reactions? The same proofs that are demanded regarding God can also be applied to Love. Where is the proof that Love is real? V

Manjula Patel <manjumaa wrote:

 

 

Loving Divine Swami Param,

Humble pranams.

I am interested in knowing your view points, could you please provide your proofs of non-existance of God?

In few emails you have mentioned such things, so I am sure you must have some reasons to share.

Thanks.

humble regards.

always at Thy Lotus Feet

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-----------

It is not at all " clear a Super being that is GOD is making things happen. " In fact, this is simply a dogma that has never been proved.

 

Swami Param